OOTS #1251 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

* nine - The Order + minrah + the two paladins
** four - Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and Oona. Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.

If we counted both, that would be 3 more on the Order's side, Bloodfeast, Blackwing, and Razor.

Well and "arbitrarily large number" on both sides, if you count all the summon spells they could go through.

[The MunchKING]

I get your drift, but you are exaggerating more than a little. Serini had allies that were not insignificant to fight those 6 on ground of her choosing. And lost.

An Ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

The primary combat advantage of a solo high level Rogue is that you should be able to avoid combats where you do not like the odds. That she got ambushed by a higher level spellcaster is pretty unfortunate, but not indicative of what a team of 6 or 8 or 10 powerful people gunning for Xykon could do. Especially with her help.

On the contrary, a bigger team with less stealth would be MORE vulnerable to scry-and-die.

And while Team Evil is spelunking around these many tunnels, there is definitely an opportunity to set up an ambush with the Order and a few Paladins and a few monster friends. They may not be able to pick the exact day of the fight, but the opportunity to be ready in one of the tunnels that will get hit within a week is available.

the problem is we saw how well her ambush worked. She had a non-killer ally, and so she only managed to take out half the order. given that it's the half that died to Xykon and fled Redcloak acting with just Oona (before Xykon showed up)(EDIT: And Elan. He wasn't in either of those categories), her ambush skills wouldn't be what elevated them to Team Evil stomping.

Serini has reasons for thinking the way she does, but she is being swayed by emotions. That is understandable and human(oid). But Haley is tactically and strategically head and shoulder beyond Serini right now. Roy even more so.

Which is why she doesn't see them beating her as they can beat Xykon, let alone Team Evil.

[Mike Havran]

I really like that while O'Chul never has any intention of being snarky, he still manages to deliver

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

To be fair, in at least one language I know, a literal translation of "getting one's beak* wet'' does, idiomatically, mean ''having a sexual intercourse''.

* well, diminutive of beak, but that is beside the point.

[hamishspence]

I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

This is probably what you're thinking of:

Laurin is a female character probably in her late 50's who is covered from head to toe and has never discussed anything sexual at all. I made a deliberate effort to not sexualize her, even, since I realized a while ago that I was subconsciously "sexing up" almost all of the female characters. The fact that she still rates these kind of comments is very disappointing.

[Ruck]

I really like that while O'Chul never has any intention of being snarky, he still manages to deliver

To be fair, in at least one language I know, a literal translation of "getting one's beak* wet'' does, idiomatically, mean ''having a sexual intercourse''.

* well, diminutive of beak, but that is beside the point.

I suspect that, in English, any such diminutive might change the meaning, but my unfamiliarity with other languages means I don't want to belabor the point in any case.

But even putting aside idioms and all, let's look at the logic behind the conclusion: Even if Serini, who has repeatedly described herself as an old woman and is half-troll now, was the type to offer sex for betrayal, would she make that offer to someone who just compared her to his grandmother?

This is probably what you're thinking of:

That was what I was thinking of, and I even found that post, but somehow I just failed to process that the paragraph I was looking for was in that post.

[hroþila]

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.

That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

[Ruck]

That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

I think Loki is the only one who expressly says it, yes. Thor says sometimes they succeeded at cashing out the souls and sometimes they didn't. Beyond that, I'm extrapolating from a)the number of "yes" votes, given the importance of souls, seeming to suggest confidence in the possibility, and b)the fact that they've done this millions (billions?) of times before. I infer they've gotten better at it as they've gone along, although I don't have hard evidence for that.

[danielxcutter]

That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

I imagine that outburst was partly on the lines of "if we don't pull the plug ourselves it's going to break out" rather than usually or even often losing all the souls. And it feels like his argument was more "it's better to unmake the world now, instead of risking the mortals' souls being lost" rather than outright "if we don't pull it right now the Snarl will be guaranteed to eat them all". Hel's gloating also implies that he would have changed his vote in a heartbeat once her plans were revealed, which implies that he considers waiting to see if the Order can take out Xykon more acceptable than the guaranteed damning of an entire race(and bloating Hel's power with their souls).

[pendell]

I suspect that, in English, any such diminutive might change the meaning, but my unfamiliarity with other languages means I don't want to belabor the point in any case.

But even putting aside idioms and all, let's look at the logic behind the conclusion: Even if Serini, who has repeatedly described herself as an old woman and is half-troll now, was the type to offer sex for betrayal, would she make that offer to someone who just compared her to his grandmother?



That was what I was thinking of, and I even found that post, but somehow I just failed to process that the paragraph I was looking for was in that post.

Yeah. The phrase is an offering of money, corruption. From organized crime. As seen in The Free Dictionary . But we don't need a dictionary to know what's being offered. Look at Belkar's reactions. A person receiving a sexual proposition can react in any number of ways. Especially someone like Belkar, who has demonstrated his willingness to engage with bards in Haley's hometown and hookers everywhere. They can be intrigued, or embarrassed, or become extremely angry, or disgusted. Belkar's doing none of those things. He's just brushing it off. That doesn't fit with Belkar's character at all. Ergo, it's not a sexual proposition he's receiving.

Not to mention, a person who's in an advanced age category with so much physical damage, including half-troll features, has to be sporting a whopping negative charisma modifier on any diplomacy or bribery check to a human character. And why exactly would Belkar betray his team for something that he's had no problems finding on the trip? I don't know what the going rate is for a night's entertainment in D&D world, but it must be trivial for a character at Belkar's wealth-by-level.

Respectfully ,

Brian P.

[Edreyn]

Remember Nanny Ogg? Old age CAN come together with sexuality.

Belkar compares Serini to grandmother, but she doesn't treat him as grandchild.

And how she winks to Belkar... no, I wouldn't think of money, if I didn't see this on forum.

[Going Hereward]

High stakes negotiations amongst thieves can get really weird.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yes they outnumber him, by more than 2-1 if you count consistently.

Based on what Serini knows, the Order outnumbers them 9* to 4*.

If we are going to count V out based on what Serini doesn't know, then we should also count MitD out. So it becomes 8 to 3.

* nine - The Order + minrah + the two paladins
** four - Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and Oona. Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.

Eeeerm... The Order was going to attack Serini being 7, and was that exact moment when Serini started her ambush.
So Serini knows that the Order think they could beat Xykon without the paladins and anyone else to help... And I doubt hard they could

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.

Just Loki, and as an argument to don't blow the world cause they have that thing with the purple color and that. I don't trust that to be a truth, maybe they could save some souls, but most of them would be erased. Thor said they "saved" some of the worlds destroying them.and saving the souls, but others don't, so is hardly implied that if the Snarl is free they can't save all the souls.

[Skull the Troll]

An Ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

That we have seen. She has some monsters that make Team Evil need to go take a nap after beating them. I've been assuming she doesn't have direct control of all of the creatures in the dungeon or she would have just opened every door and buried team evil under monster, but there's really no telling what she has at her disposal. To me her fatal flaw is that she has misjudged the relative strength of both the Order, and Team Evil.

[PontificatusRex]

Fun synchronicity: I was just listening to a podcast about Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack, and the phrase "Get your beak wet" was used to refer to mobsters' practice of skimming profits off the top of the casinos before any official accounting, and how Sinatra learned from them how to do the same on his tours.

Now I'm totally imagining Serini listening to Dean Martin when she's relaxing.

[RatElemental]

Rich has said he doesn't read the forum discussions or predictions anymore, but I also suspect that it would not be hard for him to assume that some people would be speculating that.



I'll ask again if anyone can think of a reason it benefits the story for Belkar and Serini to be related.

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

Personally I thought "jingle jangle" was a euphemism for liquor and the beak wettening would have been literal that way.

As for the Serini-Belkar connection, I think it'd make for a few interesting jokes if it turns out Serini knew of Granny Bitterleaf as an acquaintance and hated her guts.

[Metastachydium]

An ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

Yup. It's not like Mimi blocked the path of a retreat that would have effortlessly negated Serini's entire strategy for the ambush. It's also not like Franklin broke the grapple on her and the lurker absolutely didn't buy her enough time to safely withdraw into her den.

Seriously, the only monster she deployed that wasn't incredibly efficient for its CR was the trapper. That said, yes, they weren't the key factor. Home terrain and the element of surprise were and Team Evil would have had pretty much the opposite of that. Also, don't get me wrong: I was among the first posters that called the "ambush Team Evil at the entrance" idea a questionable move, but let's not misrepresent the numbers/factors involved.

and the beak wettening would have been literal that way.

So… You also think Belkar might be a birdy?

[Dewin Dwl]

As a math guy I must object, you used the word “literally” but she is only one-quarter troll, according to Xykon’s observation “I made a theee-eighthsling!”.

Who are you gonna trust on their maths, a random stranger on the internet, or an evil sorcerer who isn't counting the number of dungeon doors he's crossed off?

[Dewin Dwl]

Wow...I'd forgotted about those til you said that!

I'd been slow to think of the sharks in acid, but then immediately thought of the lava-breathing sharks Xykon was contemplating. (Did they actually give those a go?)

I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

It reminded me of the phrase "dip your bread", which I have heard used with sexual connotations on occasion, but I didn't think that would fit the context given here.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Serini: "Belker... I am your Grandma."

Belkar: "No your not."

Serini: "Eh I knew it was a long shot."

Belkar: "Do I look stupid to you?"

Everyone Else: "Yes"

[GregTD]

Devils advocate: Serini would have no way of knowing that.

But they can explain to her that
1: the Gods absolutely will be killing this world if Xykon gets close to getting the Gate
2: The OotS has no intention of destroying the last Gate
so
3: If she doesn't want teh world destroyed, she needs to team up

[Shining Wrath]

Nah, Belkar is Mr. Scruffy's.

Dogs have family; cats have staff.

A thought: Serini's monster allies, while not useless, would not give Team Evil scars and Xykon XP as seen here. Therefore, whatever the process is/was for stocking the dungeons, she either can't do it any longer, or can't control monsters of that level on her own. The monsters in the dungeons are not her servants.

If Serini could somehow bring all the monsters from two or three dungeons out to attack Team Evil at once, that would be enough to overwhelm them. Therefore, she can't, that would be severely anticlimactic. In fact, she probably can't travel into her own dungeons any longer.

[Peelee]

Dogs have family; cats have staff.

Ah, the siren song of a non-cat person. As if dog owners don't pick up their poop.

[DaOldeWolf]

Ah, the siren song of a non-cat person. As if dog owners don't pick up their poop.

As someone with both. I will say there is both great perks and annoying traits to deal with regardless of species. Also both can have bad temper or can end up hurting the owner. They also can be rather cuddly when they want to.

[Bingus]

Dat **** punt doe.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

You know, instead of a dog or a cat, you could have a picture of a dog or a cat.

[Liquor Box]

Eeeerm... The Order was going to attack Serini being 7, and was that exact moment when Serini started her ambush.

The conversation was all in the present tense, so comparing the relative numbers at this point.

But if we compare the numbers at the point before Serini attacked the Order, then the Order outnumbered Team Evil 7 to 4 (or 6 to 3 if you remove MitD and V).

So Serini knows that the Order think they could beat Xykon without the paladins and anyone else to help... And I doubt hard they could

Yes, like they have done before.

[Vikenlugaid]

But they can explain to her that
1: the Gods absolutely will be killing this world if Xykon gets close to getting the Gate
2: The OotS has no intention of destroying the last Gate
so
3: If she doesn't want teh world destroyed, she needs to team up

Nah I don't think those are the right points, why should she believe them? She will think is a lie since the paladins didn't even mention that.

I think Durkon telling her about the thing with Redcloak, the monster races and that should be a bettee shot with Serini.

Yes, like they have done before.

When? That time when Xykon only casted magic missil, and Redcloak did nothing at all, cause the comic wasn't intended to have a complex plot?
Do you think that, in tge final battle, Xykon will just cast magic missil again and Redcloak will stay just watching?

[Robots]

New strip. Wicked.

I liked the joke of Serini acting similar to Grandma Bitterleaf, but I genuinely hope she and Belkar not related because the last thing I think this story needs is that sort of twist.

(The tragic backstory: Serini became misanthropic because her family ditched her at the nursing home.)

[elros]

Fun synchronicity: I was just listening to a podcast about Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack, and the phrase "Get your beak wet" was used to refer to mobsters' practice of skimming profits off the top of the casinos before any official accounting, and how Sinatra learned from them how to do the same on his tours.

Now I'm totally imagining Serini listening to Dean Martin when she's relaxing.

Seirni it supposed to sound like an older character, so it makes sense that the Giant would use a phrase that was common in the 1950s, and also not surprising that most of the readers are not familiar with it.

[brian 333]

I completely missed any hint of sexual inuendo. Jingle jingle was obviously a reference to a pouch full of coins and wet your beak was obviously a bribe.

I can see how the present generation would miss the coin reference because plastic credit cards don't jingle. And of course, anything on the internet that you don't understand is sexual innuendo.

So I suppose I should have instantly assumed that Granny Bitterleaf was soliciting Belkar with sexual favors. It's so obvious now that I think of it.