OOTS #1251 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Look, you can't bombard us with decades of American pop culture where credit cards are only ever brought up to say that this or that character has 5 of them and no money to cover the irresponsible purchases that they're making, the obvious implication being that they're going to be broke and in a lot of trouble any minute now, and then not expect us to pick up that credit cards are the worst.

The types of people who represent this are also quite notably also presented as being just the worst with money regardless. If they didn't have credit cards, they'd be overdrawn twenty times on their debit cards.

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

[hungrycrow]

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

Sometimes they have large apartments in downtown New York.

[Tvtyrant]

The types of people who represent this are also quite notably also presented as being just the worst with money regardless. If they didn't have credit cards, they'd be overdrawn twenty times on their debit cards.

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

[Peelee]

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

Or the joke about boots in the military getting a Charger and a wife, both within two months of joining up and neither of which will last long.

That's why parents exist, though. To help warn kids of such dangers (even if they don't always listen).

[Liquor Box]

When? That time when Xykon only casted magic missil, and Redcloak did nothing at all, cause the comic wasn't intended to have a complex plot?

I don't mean that time, I'm not sure what time that even was. I mean the battle which started in strip 105. That was after the Giant had decided that there would be a plot. In that battle Xykon was supported by lots of goblins and undead, who managed to lock down most of the party. Hayley was absent for most of the fight. Xykon cast five spells, including magic missile but not only that. Recloak did contribute by using his clerical skills to bolster the undead. So it meets 0/3 of your criteria above.

I get that the Order beating Xykon in that fight was an improbable outcome for plot purposes. But it did happen, it proves that Xykon can be beat and if Serini knows about it, it should factor into her thinking.

Do you think that, in tge final battle, Xykon will just cast magic missil again and Redcloak will stay just watching?

I don't think it will happen that way. Nor do I think it will go the same way as the fight from 105. I don't think it will go the same as any previous fights in the comic, because the Giant will want the final battle to stand out. But I do think there's a good chance the Order will prevail over Xykon.



I get the point that Xykon is and his group is, on the face of it, more powerful that the Order. From our perspective as readers we know the Order is likely to prevail for story reasons. But the relevant question is what Serini thinks, or what she should think. I think Serini knows very little about the Order's abilities or strength (which is why she thought her ambush would prevail). I think strip 148 tells us that Serini think Xykon is unbeatable because he beat her friends who obviously looked up to. She's made no reasoned assessment of the Order's numbers and strength, she just thinks that Xykon is so overwhelmingly powerful that he can't be beaten. So instead she's focussed on damage control, and she thinks letting him win without actively resisting will cause less damage than allowing the Order to resist him (because that would mean a chance the gate gets destroyed). But, in my opinion, that's not a reasonable position for her to take unless she has made an informed judgment about the Order's chances of success.

As a member of the current generation

Which generation counts as the current one? Millenials?

Conceptually, the idea with a debit card is that the money comes directly out of your account; while with a credit card conceptually the money comes from the bank and then you pay the bank at some later date.

The differences in how fraud is handled and who is liable make perfect sense within that concept. In one case the bank is liable because it's their money that was stolen. In the other case it's your money that was stolen so you are liable.

Good summary

I routinely get between 2-5% cash back on all purchases, which is effectively just an extra discount on whatever I buy, no matter how much it is already discounted.

This varies greatly from country to country. Where I'm from you get nothing like that. You might get reward points.

I think because credit card companies aren't able to charge the sorts of fees that justify the big cashbacks.

A lot of these perks seem to be specific to the US anyway.

Indeed

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

If a person borrows money they can't pay back, and then goes and spends it on a whole lot of stuff, i don't know that it's fair to blame the mechanism.
What do you mean by kid credit card. Do you mean actual children - because that would be different.

[KorvinStarmast]

I believe credit cards existed for quite some time before debit cards came along.

For sure. I was handling credit cards as a cashier in the early 1970's. We had to look up this book for each one in case the card was on the banned list. Physical credit card impression made on a form with four or five carbon copies. They had been around longer than that, that's just my first memory of them. (And before it was called Visa, it was called Bank Americard).

[Throknor]

I don't mean that time, I'm not sure what time that even was. I mean the battle which started in strip 105. That was after the Giant had decided that there would be a plot. In that battle Xykon was supported by lots of goblins and undead, who managed to lock down most of the party. Hayley was absent for most of the fight. Xykon cast five spells, including magic missile but not only that. Recloak did contribute by using his clerical skills to bolster the undead. So it meets 0/3 of your criteria above.

I get that the Order beating Xykon in that fight was an improbable outcome for plot purposes. But it did happen, it proves that Xykon can be beat and if Serini knows about it, it should factor into her thinking.

I'm pretty sure Xykon was pulling his punches hoping one of the Order would unseal the gate. The Order only won because the Gate's seal actually destroyed Xykon. A seal created by an Epic-level wizard. A seal no longer available to be used.

Even Roy has admitted it was a fluke.

[Vikenlugaid]

Given her sympathies, that might indeed turn her around... to side with Redcloak!

Exactly, where is the problem?
The true hero wins.

[Liquor Box]

I'm pretty sure Xykon was pulling his punches hoping one of the Order would unseal the gate. The Order only won because the Gate's seal actually destroyed Xykon. A seal created by an Epic-level wizard. A seal no longer available to be used.

Even Roy has admitted it was a fluke.

Yes, I agree with all this. How much it matters depends on whose perspective you are thinking of it from - Serini's, the reader's a more objective assessment based on what we know without genre awareness (knowing that the good guys will probably prevail).

There is a gate present here - I wonder if the same thing would work, or whether it was specific to that particular gate. Not that I think that it will happen the same way twice.

[hungrycrow]

There is a gate present here - I wonder if the same thing would work, or whether it was specific to that particular gate. Not that I think that it will happen the same way twice.

It was specific to that gate, Dorukan put defensive runes on his. Also Xykon is immune to grappling now.

[Skull the Troll]

A debit card is essentially electronic money. A credit card is leasing your soul to the Devil/Bank on a monthly basis.

Only if you don't pay it off every month. I put everything on my Amazon credit card, never pay any interest and get 800 bucks a year for free to play with on Amazon. That said, never put anything on a credit card you dont already have the cash for in the bank.

[brian 333]

It was specific to that gate, Dorukan put defensive runes on his. Also Xykon is immune to grappling now.

The Order does not know what defenses have been used on Kraagor's Gate, and so they are in the position of young Americans who have never been taught how the credit system works. Roy has determined that after having three accounts canceled and their credit score reduced below 650, their best way forward is to not use their last card at all.

Serini mistakenly believes they came seeking credit counseling, and so her opposition to The Order is based on her belief that they want to declare bankruptcy and have their debts expunged. Instead, The Order wants to pay off their debts and build a new credit score.

The lesson here is obviously that one should learn the principles of capitalism so they can benefit from its advantages before blowing up gates that contain a universe-devouring Snarl.

[hroþila]

Only if you don't pay it off every month. I put everything on my Amazon credit card, never pay any interest and get 800 bucks a year for free to play with on Amazon. That said, never put anything on a credit card you dont already have the cash for in the bank.

Yeah that doesn't apply here. I need a credit card to keep my bank from charging me some ridiculous administration fees, that's literally the only benefit I get, and then only if I make at least two purchases per month with it. They simply make accounting harder because my expenses don't show up until the following month, and they're not itemized either. They're evil as far as I'm concerned.

[Peelee]

Yeah that doesn't apply here. I need a credit card to keep my bank from charging me some ridiculous administration fees, that's literally the only benefit I get, and then only if I make at least two purchases per month with it. They simply make accounting harder because my expenses don't show up until the following month, and they're not itemized either. They're evil as far as I'm concerned.

It sounds like they're saving you from the bank for a nominal annoyance. That's.... Not a definition of evil I've encountered before.

Also, what janky card do you have that doesn't allow you to see pending or complete payments immediately, and doesn't itemize it?

[Shining Wrath]

The original credit card was Diners Club, invented because it was damned embarrassing to take friends out to dinner at Chez Hoity-Toity and come up $20 short. And only nice restaurants took them.

I don't even know what the credit limits are on my cards, because we pay ours off every month.

[mjasghar]

Interestingly enough in the uk some places won’t take certain cards especially American Express because of the high fees they charge the vendor. And generally banks will refund any fraud made on stolen cards etc if you contact them early and can look through the statements. They certainly will stop a sudden one off clearing of the account.

[DaOldeWolf]

It sounds like they're saving you from the bank for a nominal annoyance. That's.... Not a definition of evil I've encountered before.

Also, what janky card do you have that doesn't allow you to see pending or complete payments immediately, and doesn't itemize it?

I would say that even if not all their actions are evil, if alignment existed most if not all banks would be lawful evil.

[Peelee]

I would say that even if not all their actions are evil, if alignment existed most if not all banks would be lawful evil.

If a devil popped up and offered your character a deal, where the terms were very clear and you would only have negative repucussions if you were negligent, and also could take 10 to not be negligent, would you suspect that the DM was playing the devil as not actually Evil? Or, at least, as wildly incompetent Evil?

Now stop making me defend credit card companies, I feel dirty.

[Fyraltari]

Which generation counts as the current one? Millenials?

Are you alive? If so, congratulations, you are part of the current generation.

[Xel]

Are you alive? If so, congratulations, you are part of the current generation.

That definition…doesn’t really match with the usual uses of “generation.” Especially the uses that imply two or more living people are from different generations (“get off my lawn”, “what is the younger generation coming to,” etc). Should I be reading your definition as tongue in cheek?

[Fyraltari]

That definition…doesn’t really match with the usual uses of “generation.” Especially the uses that imply two or more living people are from different generations (“get off my lawn”, “what is the younger generation coming to,” etc). Should I be reading your definition as tongue in cheek?

Partially. Everything that's right now is current, so you won't find any better definiton of "the current generation". Generations only really make sense within a family anyway. I am not of the same generation as my niece. But if you try to use it to denote age differences, you'll soon meet problems. My half-uncles are closer in age to my brother than to my mother, are they in the same generation?

All this talk of "millenial", "gen x" etc. breaks down once you start looking at the specifics.

[hroþila]

It sounds like they're saving you from the bank for a nominal annoyance. That's.... Not a definition of evil I've encountered before.

Also, what janky card do you have that doesn't allow you to see pending or complete payments immediately, and doesn't itemize it?

Nah, the bank is forcing me to get a credit card from them and the credit card company gladly collects these forced customers while giving us nothing in return. They're necessary accomplices. They're only saving me from something that wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for them. It's racketeering at best.

So yes, I'd call that evil.

[Peelee]

Nah, the bank is forcing me to get a credit card from them and the credit card company gladly collects these forced customers while giving us nothing in return. They're necessary accomplices. They're only saving me from something that wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for them. It's racketeering at best.

So yes, I'd call that evil.

I'm that case, it sounds like your issue is with the bank and the credit card is just one tool they use. If Bob uses a hammer to kill people, the hammer isn't evil, Bob is

[hroþila]

I'm that case, it sounds like your issue is with the bank and the credit card is just one tool they use. If Bob uses a hammer to kill people, the hammer isn't evil, Bob is

But if the hammer is a sentient, talking hammer and it's edging Bob on as he bashes skulls in, yelling "Oh yeah Bob, get them, kill them all, take their money and buy me some nice metal polish, mwahahaha", then maybe both are evil.

[danielxcutter]

...Y'know, I was just going to make a quip like that, but the subscription email didn't inform me you'd beaten me to the punch. Ah well.

[Emanick]

But if the hammer is a sentient, talking hammer and it's edging Bob on as he bashes skulls in, yelling "Oh yeah Bob, get them, kill them all, take their money and buy me some nice metal polish, mwahahaha", then maybe both are evil.

Except in this case, the credit card isn't any more sentient than a regular hammer is. The bank is the only entity in this situation with agency. Otherwise, very entertaining analogy, 12/10, would definitely read again.

[danielxcutter]

Except in this case, the credit card isn't any more sentient than a regular hammer is. The bank is the only entity in this situation with agency. Otherwise, very entertaining analogy, 12/10, would definitely read again.

I'm fairly sure the credit card agency is the hammer in that metaphor, not the credit card itself.

[Peelee]

But if the hammer is a sentient, talking hammer and it's edging Bob on as he bashes skulls in, yelling "Oh yeah Bob, get them, kill them all, take their money and buy me some nice metal polish, mwahahaha", then maybe both are evil.

It's not egging on Bob, though. Bob has all the power in this scenario.

Your bank sounds like crap. That's the banks fault, not the credit card's fault. And frankly, that the bank is the one pushing the card makes it even more mystifying that you can't see any charges in real-time, along with the other issues you have with it.

Bob is bludgeoning you and you're just saying "I take issue with that hammer", from everything I can tell.

[brian 333]

The whole enterprise is based on mutual benefit and informed consent.

Banking is a business that requires profit to exist. That profit has to come from somewhere. Even if the bank was a not-for-profit charity it would require a certain percentage of income to meet its overhead costs.

Credit is a subset of banking. It operates by rules. Learning the rules allows a user of credht services to make use of those services for his own benefit.

It is not evil. There are no tricks and the rules only change with prior announcement. But it is important to exercise informed judgement before use.

Like fire, careful use for a purpose is beneficial. Careless abuse can be disasterous. That does not make fire evil.

[Fyraltari]

The whole enterprise is based on mutual benefit and informed consent.

No, it's not. If the bank can make money by screwing you over, which they often can, they will do so. And they dtend to give you as little information as they legally can get away with, because that makes things easier for the bank.