Results 1 to 30 of 31
-
2022-01-08, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Thieves’ Cant was part of the game from the late 70s, and I remember it as an essential aspect of being a rogue in Second Edition.
It’s apparently been revived in 5E, but it seems to be completely absent from 3.X, and exists only as third-party material in Pathfinder. Anyone know why this is the case?
-
2022-01-08, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
It's been folded into the Bluff skill, which I think makes a lot more sense than having it as a rogue class feature. Not all rogues are thieves, and not all thieves are rogues.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
-
2022-01-08, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Might as well ask what happened to "alignment languages" (which never made sense to me) or the super-secret Druid language.
-
2022-01-08, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
-
2022-01-08, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Originally Posted by InvisibleBison
It's been folded into the Bluff skill, which I think makes a lot more sense than having it as a rogue class feature. Not all rogues are thieves, and not all thieves are rogues.
Originally Posted by SimonMoon6
Might as well ask what happened to…the super-secret Druid language.
-
2022-01-08, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Switzerland
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Druidic might just be one of those magical languages that you can only speak if you are in the right club, like the alignment languages in OD&D. Change your alignment, you can no longer speak or understand it.
Resident Vancian Apologist
-
2022-01-08, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
-
2022-01-08, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Originally Posted by Metastachydium
But why on earth would every rogue ever speak it?
The name itself isn’t quite fair, since not everyone who spoke it was a thief; it was the language of wanderers and vagabonds of the road, and different regions had different versions. Since rogues aren’t likely to be living a settled family life, and are much more likely to be mobile, it makes sense they would know the language of the road.
-
2022-01-08, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
If there is a "thieves cant" sociolect in your setting, I'd recommend to treat it like any regular language and make it accessible by putting a skill point in Speak Language. This option should be restricted to characters with a fitting background (just like any other skill and language, imho).
-
2022-01-08, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
-
2022-01-08, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
I used not to like rogues much. But then, I realized there's not much about the class itself that doesn't appeal to me. They get tons of fun stuff. What I had issues with were the stereotypes associated with rogues: the whole "they are greedy, backstabbing never-do-wells" thing. It is easy to build a respectable locksmith with a surprisingly good reaction time who branched out into producing and maintaining other security systems (such as traps) using the rogue chassis (I've actually kind of wanted to do just that someday for some time now). It would make eleven kinds of sense.
Long story short, I feel like making Thieves' Cant "an essential aspect of being a rogue" kind of reduces a fun class to an archetype (or a close-knit group thereof) which strikes me as a trite and restrictive approach to it.
The name itself isn’t quite fair, since not everyone who spoke it was a thief; it was the language of wanderers and vagabonds of the road, and different regions had different versions. Since rogues aren’t likely to be living a settled family life, and are much more likely to be mobile, it makes sense they would know the language of the road.
Incidentally, if I were to make Thieves' Cant a class feature, I'd probably tack it on urban druids rather than rogues.
-
2022-01-08, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Originally Posted by Berenger
If there is a "thieves cant" sociolect in your setting, I'd recommend to treat it like any regular language and make it accessible by putting a skill point in Speak Language. This option should be restricted to characters with a fitting background (just like any other skill and language, imho).
Originally Posted by Metastachydium
It is easy to build a respectable locksmith with a surprisingly good reaction time who branched out into producing and maintaining other security systems (such as traps) using the rogue chassis (I've actually kind of wanted to do just that someday for some time now).
But there’s no reason offhand why that character couldn’t also maintain connections with light-fingered vagabonds, especially if he knows one or two who have gone semi-legit and help him test his systems. I don’t see that knowing their language takes away anything from the character; to me it adds a little more depth.
-
2022-01-08, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
There's no reason why the character couldn't have contact with criminals, but there's also no reason why they must do so. Having thieves' cant be an optional element that anyone can take means that you won't ever have a character who should have it but doesn't or who shouldn't have it but does; making it only obtainable by taking a level in rogue creates both of those problems.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
-
2022-01-08, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Oregon
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Thieves' Cant is a super-special secret club language. Where do those come from? Organizations. In 3.x, base classes are supposed to be base classes. No prerequisites, no built-in ties to organizations, lots of paragraphs describing how many different character "concepts" could all use the same class and how anyone could just teach themselves or gain power without even caring about deities. Organizations come from PrCs or other organization mechanics. So "theives' cant", and "druidic," are completely inappropriate as class features. If they're languages, they should be languages. And if you shouldn't be able to learn them without an appropriate and willing teacher hey, guess what? That's how all languages work. Of course, if the DM can't be bothered to enforce the most basic of common sense like gravity exists and you can't learn a language from nothing. . .
Last edited by Fizban; 2022-01-08 at 04:09 PM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
-
2022-01-09, 05:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Isn’t this what the 3.0 skill ‘Innuendo’ was for? Which I think got folded into bluff, as the general ‘lie and obfuscate through words’ skill
OI YOU! Join this one Discord where people talk 3.5 stuff! Also chicken infested related things! It’s pretty rad! https://discord.gg/6HmgXhUZ
-
2022-01-09, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Isn’t using linguistics to communicate the gist of what you want to say the 3.5/of thieves cant?
-
2022-01-09, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2019
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Ruts groit dem gib mum. Oyt oyt? Slempmy mummers kemp me knifewise. Quizkill.
-
2022-01-09, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
On the topic of non-criminal Rogues, I think the class is actually a good choice for NPC guards. It has Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot all as class skills, plus enough skill points to max all of them out even on an 8-Int non-human.
On such characters, I think it would make most thematic sense to exchange Sneak Attack for Fighter feats. The Militia feat can get you proficiency with all Martial weapons. I wouldn't bother with medium and heavy armor proficiency. You're not going to catch fleeing criminals if your speed is reduced. Actually, maybe skip Militia and take Fleet of Foot as your regional feat.My Perpetually-Unfinished Homebrew: Tier-3 Class Suite, Homestuck Races for Pathfinder, Homestuck Races for 5e, Psionic Class Redux
-
2022-01-09, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Oregon
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
I was just about to say that Sneak Attack itself is perfect for guards. They need some sort of edge to have a chance of dealing with elites or stuff with a couple extra HD, and the extra d6 from a flank or just having enough guards that one of them wins initiative is just the thing. If you want a light armored (and thus presumably lightly armed) "beat cop" sort of guard, SA is great.
Aside from PC classes not being generated with percentages so the Rogue-classed cop is actually the elite detective.Last edited by Fizban; 2022-01-09 at 07:33 PM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
-
2022-01-09, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323
-
2022-01-09, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Wandering in Harrekh
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Bad branding, IMO. Too negative. Should have been "Thieves Can!"
-
2022-01-10, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
-
2022-01-14, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
like that webcomic
https://www.yesthievescan.com/"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
-
2022-01-14, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Orlando, FL
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
-
2022-01-14, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- Location
- Wisconsin
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
There's a really good depiction of a "thieves' cant" in Blade of Tyshalle by Matthew Stover that follows the "it's part of Bluff" model. Maybe even Slight of Hand.
Essentially people speak normally, but use subtle hand and facial gestures to indicate which words are meant to be heard by the recipient. It allows two characters to have a conversation while being observed by guards who remain convinced they're arguing with each other. It's really well done, and I think makes for a more convincing secret communication method.
-
2022-01-14, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
In my current campaign, we have a Dwarf Rogue who's the servant of a poncy aristocratic Elf Wizard. Basically a Jeeves and Bertie Wooster situation. The wizard is basically incompetent and ignorant of everything outside the academic and arcane realms (e.g. buying things - "How much could a banana cost? 20 gold pieces?")
The Rogue is perfectly respectable, but also a "fixer" who can navigate the less-respectable parts of the world, and a bodyguard of sorts.
-
2022-01-14, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
IIRC one of the features of the 1st ed AD&D Assassin class was that they could, at high level, learn alignment languages not their own (handy, since they assassins were evil), thieves' cant, and even druidic. This has not carried over into 3rd edition, since only druidic remains as a language. Although assassins have bluff and sense motive, at least.
-
2022-01-16, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
-
2022-01-18, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
Speaking of sociolects, is it still a thing that everyone in Sigil talks like cockney victorian street urchins, or was that permanently gotten rid of after 2e?
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
-
2022-01-18, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: Whatever Happened to Thieves’ Cant?
3.x doesn't spend anymore than a paragraph or two on Sigil in the Manual of the Planes. Not enough space to go into any slangs. The "officially endorsed" Planescape fan website Planewalker of course kept the Cant and expanded it whenever it could.
Last edited by Tzardok; 2022-04-18 at 08:28 AM.