Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime II: No Key Required

[Rynjin]

I meant the whole show.

If the entire plot of the show hinges on them making arbitrary changes to **** that should be simple, I hope it gets cancelled before it gets to that point.

It's okay not to defend every little thing Rafe does.

[Psyren]

It's okay not to defend every little thing Rafe does.

I'm not. For example, I criticized the Laila thing and proposed a way it could have been done better, if you'll recall.

[Seerow]

Regarding the Ways, I actually think it requiring a Ter'angreal or Channeling makes more sense than the way it is in the books.

In the books literally anyone who picks up the Avendesora leaf can go in. Given that is the case, I would expect the Ways to have been abused far more throughout history. But instead they're basically this minor footnote that few know about and certainly aren't considered relevant.

It requiring a channeler or ter'angreal explains why there aren't more people out there risking the ways for whatever the reason. Surely there are people out there who felt that there was sufficient need or profit to be worth risking the black wind. But if you need to convince and Ogier (who presumably have the keys normally) or an Aes Sedai that number suddenly drops dramatically.


Also it is worth considering in a visual medium, anyone who hasn't read the books will see the party walk up to a door in a random basement, pick out a random leaf, and suddenly be in this weird alternate reality, and be very confused. The visualization of this big portal device looking thing and Moiraine channeling to activate it is much more intuitive. I have not seen a single non-reading watcher say anything about being confused how the Ways work or what they are, which indicates to me they got the point across.

I do wish that they had actually included the scene showing Fain with the key to show how he managed to follow.

It's okay not to defend every little thing Rafe does.

It's also okay to not attack every little thing that has been changed on the assumption that every change is inherently bad. Seriously the ridiculous levels of negativity in this thread have kept me away. I have things in the show I don't like. But if I'm posting here I feel like I have to be overly positive just to counterbalance it because despite the problems the show does have, as a whole they are dramatically overblown. The show is overall a good show, but reading about it on the internet you'd think it was the Super Mario Bros movie or something.

[Clertar]

As a non-book reader lurking the thread casually after watching the series, I think that the users in this thread fall in two camps:

1. Those who think the result was underwhelming.
2. Those who think the result was underwhelming but there are reasons for that.

What I mean is that there is a big area of consensus, from what I see. But, as is always the case, conversations and discussions happen in the areas where there is no overlap.

[Gnoman]

Personally, the only episodes that were underwhelming were the last two (which were heavily hit by COVID and actor issues). Everything else exceeded my expectations by far.

[Psyren]

It's also okay to not attack every little thing that has been changed on the assumption that every change is inherently bad. Seriously the ridiculous levels of negativity in this thread have kept me away. I have things in the show I don't like. But if I'm posting here I feel like I have to be overly positive just to counterbalance it because despite the problems the show does have, as a whole they are dramatically overblown. The show is overall a good show, but reading about it on the internet you'd think it was the Super Mario Bros movie or something.

This.

Personally, the only episodes that were underwhelming were the last two (which were heavily hit by COVID and actor issues). Everything else exceeded my expectations by far.

I'll add the first episode as needing improvement (especially that cold open) but otherwise, this too.

[Anteros]

Regarding the Ways, I actually think it requiring a Ter'angreal or Channeling makes more sense than the way it is in the books.

In the books literally anyone who picks up the Avendesora leaf can go in. Given that is the case, I would expect the Ways to have been abused far more throughout history. But instead they're basically this minor footnote that few know about and certainly aren't considered relevant.

It requiring a channeler or ter'angreal explains why there aren't more people out there risking the ways for whatever the reason. Surely there are people out there who felt that there was sufficient need or profit to be worth risking the black wind. But if you need to convince and Ogier (who presumably have the keys normally) or an Aes Sedai that number suddenly drops dramatically.


Also it is worth considering in a visual medium, anyone who hasn't read the books will see the party walk up to a door in a random basement, pick out a random leaf, and suddenly be in this weird alternate reality, and be very confused. The visualization of this big portal device looking thing and Moiraine channeling to activate it is much more intuitive. I have not seen a single non-reading watcher say anything about being confused how the Ways work or what they are, which indicates to me they got the point across.

I do wish that they had actually included the scene showing Fain with the key to show how he managed to follow.



It's also okay to not attack every little thing that has been changed on the assumption that every change is inherently bad. Seriously the ridiculous levels of negativity in this thread have kept me away. I have things in the show I don't like. But if I'm posting here I feel like I have to be overly positive just to counterbalance it because despite the problems the show does have, as a whole they are dramatically overblown. The show is overall a good show, but reading about it on the internet you'd think it was the Super Mario Bros movie or something.

There are lots of reasons given in the books that people don't travel the ways. First of all, you'd have to know exactly which leaf to pick out on the stone, and where to put it in order to open the door. It's said to be almost impossible to distinguish in the books, so that's already not easy.

Secondly, even if you can get inside, you won't know where you're going. There's probably less than 10 people (ogiers) alive that can even read the wayposts. You could go to a stedding and ask for assistance, but you'd better have a really good reason, and be prepared for them to have meetings for 5 years before giving you an answer.

Finally, even if you somehow manage to stumble across the knowledge of how to open the gate, and how to read the guideposts, there's the tiny matter of the giant demon monster that lives inside who wants to eat your soul.

I'm glad that some of you can enjoy the show. That's not sarcasm. Just because I dislike something doesn't mean I can't be happy for someone else if they enjoy it.

I think there's two ways to evaluate the show. As a generic fantasy show, or as an adaptation of the existing source material. I think the general consensus I've seen here and on Reddit is that it's a mediocre generic fantasy show, but a terrible adaptation of the books.

[Psyren]

Secondly, even if you can get inside, you won't know where you're going. There's probably less than 10 people (ogiers) alive that can even read the wayposts. You could go to a stedding and ask for assistance, but you'd better have a really good reason, and be prepared for them to have meetings for 5 years before giving you an answer.

That's not the only way:

Spoiler: TGH

Show

Liandrin consults a piece of paper to get Team Magikarp to Toman Head. You can chalk that up to the Shadow, or even just the Tower, having access to resources most people don't - but the point is that the information is available without needing to go before the Stump or find an Ogier scholar.

I'm glad that some of you can enjoy the show. That's not sarcasm. Just because I dislike something doesn't mean I can't be happy for someone else if they enjoy it.

If you were truly happy for the people who enjoyed the show, you wouldn't be wishing for it to get cancelled out from under them on seemingly every other post. So you'll forgive me if I express disbelief at this show of gracious magnanimity.

[Ramza00]

Shares some thoughts from a few pages ago, engaging in repetition in this song we sing together.

I thought it was quite interesting to find out more about The Wheel of Time series being left unfinished, and how Sanderson had to finish the last books.

Given some discussion on Martin the end of the first thread, I wonder who would you pick for finishing A Song of Ice and Fire and The Kingkiller Chronicle, if left unfinished? Sanderson again, someone else?

If we have someone finish Martin, one must understand what Martin is trying to accomplish. While simultaneously he finds it a hard task almost a trap to achieve.

There is a concept called Jouissance, before I explain what it is let’s define two other terms so we can define Jouissance.

• Instincts is something our brain knows how to do automatically. We know automatically how to breathe, we know how automatically how to eat. When we breathe it is a multi stage process including breathing in and then switching to breathing out. Our brain has an autopilot that leads to excellence, arete, Aristotle’s golden mean where we do not breathe in too much that we suffocate for we never switch to the breathing out and then switch to the other extreme, back and forth, again and again, this is instinct. Instinct leads to find the golden mean automatically, more or less.
• Drives are like instinct but sometimes we can do it to excess. For example I can eat to excess even if eating itself is an instinct, gluttony can be a thing. Yet we often apply drives to behaviors we associate with being human. Behaviors learned over time due to our longer baby and toddler years, behaviors learned in childhood, and our extended adolescence. Drives have regulatory principles but their regulatory principles can get messed up. (We always notice when drives are not doing what we want them to do, rarely do we acknowledge the drive when it does what we want unless we are trying to impart positive feedback to another or positive feedback to ourselves, mimicking parents and other authority figures of the past.). Drives can not have satisfaction points like instincts do when we know when to automatically know to switch. Instead drives are based around repetition and we should think of them like circles forming a closed loop, or perhaps like spirals depending on the metaphysics you were ritually taught plus life experiences that you find comforting.

Now back to Jouissance. Jouissance is a French word that means Joy when we satisfy a Drive. But also as important this Jouissance is often some form of destruction at the same time it can be pleasing, and pleasing to the point of ecstasy.

For example a person who hates bullies and stops bullying conflict. This is a drive, but sometimes this pleasure goes too far that you do not stop the ritual and repetition and you go a little too far. You can actually device pleasure with going too far, this is Jouissance. Jouissance can be destructive to the self, others, groups, societies, etc. It can result in tragedy

“The things I do for love” is Jouissance. Jamie is excited here, he did an impulse, he took an impulsive action that may not have been the best outcome as Cersei herself points out. Likewise Cersei herself does so many actions out of Jouissance in order to feel alive, she drinks to excess and has romantic partners that may remove her head.

Ned Stark also does Jouissance, his honor, his repetitive rituals he does to preserve himself, to preserve others, duty and honor they too bring him joy. These rituals born out of tragedy and part of him longs for the freedom of his youth where he had different drives that Robert showed him. Thus there are conflicting drives and conflicting joys inside young and old Eddard Stark, the joy of obeying and the joy of transgressing. Love and Duty. Eddard Stark could have saved his family and a million other people if he told a lie and not plot a coup on Cersei. But he had to be the big man telling her about the Coup before it occurred and give her opportunity to plot against him. Ned Stark was giving a second chance with Varys and he retracted his claims and was going to join the Night Watch, but the young king Joffrey exercised his own Jouissance and chopped off the traitorous hand’s head with his owns sword seeing this as poetry.

Pardon my language but the whole feudalism thing and inheritance rights is kinda “messed up” (other words can go here) and Martin explains how the last 300 years one can not resolve the contradiction of who gets to inherit what, what kind of Primogeniture is Westeros? Well there has been half a dozen variations of what type of Primogeniture the King is and we had over half a dozen great rebellions. And 3 great councils, and 4 almost called great councils to rejustisfy the order of succession or to resolve multiple claims. Great Councils themselves having more power than a king, and they can claim a King is traitor and he needs to be disposed, executed, and banished, but also make a new king.

Sometimes these situations occur due to real problems. Like do we want a 3 year old to be king? After all we can have a reagent until the kid comes of age, or should we make a cousin be king instead? Other times they are more Venial reasons like I want to be king, or I distrust this king candidate for they are clearly mad. Likewise reasons tied to justice and injustice like should we allow Girls to be the Queen, or perhaps murder and genocide?

For love and duty…Two contradictory drives, that fight against each other and produce tension. Like Ice and Fire.

————————

And the songs we see they too are Jouissance. When we sing self satisfactory songs with friends and comrades at a pub we are engaging in Jouissance. Songs are propaganda they make us see one possibility so fervently in the throws of passion. This is why the powers that be banish certain songs including killing singers and poets, while hiring other singers and poets to create songs that rectify the powers that be. The powers that be are directing current, like electricity or water, they are directing joy itself! So that in good times of summer we celebrate the kings, and in the tragedy of winter we question the entire system.

————————

Back to Martin’s replacement and their Job. There job is to be the storyteller that captivates the reader but to also explain the meta tale of Jouissance and come to a resolution for this tale, this song. There are so many ways to tell this ending, this story.

In my mind the whole obvious conclusion (feel free to disagree) is to problemize the heroes journey much like Dune did, a series that Martin is borrowing from heavenly. This is what the job of a specific type of Therapist is meant to do. To help you realize when you are engaging in Jouissance that is self or other destructive, and to remove the joy you gain from it. To be the buzz kill and to stop making you engage in this destruction, this repetition, to have insight where one can create a new cycle.

But even then you will still engage your live in loops, we are slaves to this destiny for that is how we are built. But we can be less destructive some of the time, but not all of the time. The conclusion of the song is the end of that song where we felt we learned something, and after we stop singing it we invoke a new muse to sing another song. Wheels upon wheels. Much like a man who is given a second life, is able to weave not the one power or the true power, yet somehow the pipe is lit after the thought.

What is that Hadestown line again?

(sung) It's a sad song, It's a sad tale
(spoken) It's a tragedy
(sung) It's a sad song
(spoken) But we sing it anyway

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting ideas, but you kind of lost me there at the end.

[Rodin]

Pushed through Lord of Chaos until I got to the fun bit with Dumai's Wells, which was actually kind of a letdown. Not any fault of the book, but it's one portion I actively re-read specifically as a kid and my memory of how it went down was too clear. Still spectacularly cool, but not as interesting as the bits of the books which I have entirely forgotten.

I'm now halfway through Crown of Swords, which I was sort of dreading. I'm getting into the area of the story where it really bogs down, and with how little I enjoyed Lord of Chaos I was expecting Crown of Swords to be more of the same.

Boy, was I wrong. Rand and Egwene's stories still aren't that interesting, but Ebou Dar makes up for it in spades. I dismissed the Bowl of the Winds as a pointless timewaste of a sidequest in my memory, but the whole sequence has been delightful. I'm also pretty sure this book contains my favorite fight scene in the entire series (Mat vs Gholam), and I can't wait to get to it. Jordan tried to do political intrigue in Lord of Chaos, and I don't think he measures up to masters of the style like GRRM. Ebou Dar gets back to the roots of what I enjoy from the series - the characters questing to get stuff done.

It also helps that the story is Mat-centric, and he remains my favorite character.

[Psyren]

It also helps that the story is Mat-centric, and he remains my favorite character.

You're going to love Path of Daggers then

[Rodin]

You're going to love Path of Daggers then

Oh god, don't remind me. I'm still pissed about that.