Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime II: No Key Required

[Mechalich]

Judkins' background is tv, so WOT having a more of a tv fantasy vibe rather than a cinematic or even premium tv sort of makes sense.

You've got a point there. Thinking back to the first two seasons of Agents of SHIELD, it's remarkable how similar the earlier episodes of WoT feel as a show, how many similar problems they have, and how the ultimate result: a watchable but rather meh show that doesn't have any heft, is ultimately so similar. A lot of the decisions that went into WoT do make more sense if looked at through the lens of trying to make a show suited for network television. The show is absolutely both clean enough, bland enough, and to air Tuesdays at 9 pm on ABC like SHIELD actually did half a decade ago.

And you know, if it was 2015 and WoT was airing broadcast on CBS or NBC I think I'd be much, much more forgiving of the show. But it's not. It's a streaming show on Amazon and it only has 8 episodes per season not 22 - Dana the Darkfriend, in particular, feels like a thing that belongs in a 22 episode show, not an 8-episode one. The show feels like it went through a design process that would have best produced something other than what it actually is.

I think Rafe would actually have been a very good choice to produce the CW version of Wheel of Time, something descriptions of the early script as being 'fanfiction erotic' only support, honestly. I even think there's actually a good CW-style Wheel of Time to be made, though it wouldn't be anything like the books. I don't think he was the right choice to make this version of the show.

[Anteros]

It's because "the arts" can be inherently non-commercial. If I promise a client I'm going to get their video script or landing page or feature to them by a certain date, I try my damnedest to meet it.

That stops being a valid excuse when you market your art as part of a series in order to sell it.

Trust me, I know how you feel. I was right there with you, fresh out of high school and with a lot of really strong opinions about other peoples' business. And I do still think GRRM has an obligation to at least be forthright. But I've been actively writing for long enough to know by now it isn't quite as simple as just sitting down and doing it.

Wow. That is just....incredibly condescending. I'll have you know that I'm neither "fresh out of high school" nor would my opinions be inherently less valuable than yours even if I were. When you market a service to the public, it stops being your personal business.

Hell, even with commercial work I sit down at my computer some days, stare at the page for half an hour, slam out 100-200 words, then just ****ing blank out and assign myself some research or editing work to do to make myself feel productive. It's even harder with something that requires me to have some enthusiasm and passion.

And if you did that indefinitely you'd be out of a job. Trust me when I say that I've been less than passionate about working on the covid ward with dying patients, unsafe conditions, and sweltering ppe for the last two years, but it's still my job, and I keep my obligations. Since when is "people should actually do the things they took money to do" a controversial opinion? Everyone experiences burnout in every field. It's just that some of us don't have the luxury of not doing the job we're paid for.

[Rynjin]

GRRM hasn't been paid for the next book. He was paid for the previous books, which were released.

That's the benefit of self-employment. Your only hard obligations are ones you make yourself. In an art related field, you don't even have the responsibility of having a higher purpose. Working in a hospital is important work. People die if you shirk your duties.

Worst case scenario here, there's one less book in the world. A tragedy from a philosophical standpoint for some people, but ultimately meaningless.

When you market a service to the public, it stops being your personal business.

This, also, is not just wrong, but incredibly toxic. It's the same kind of attitude that says "well if an actor didn't want to be stalked and harassed at all hours of the day by rabid fans and paparazzi they shouldn't have become actors/politicians/musicians".

People are people. The only information you're entitled to about another person is what they willingly share, or are legally obligated to share.

[Anteros]

GRRM hasn't been paid for the next book. He was paid for the previous books, which were released.

That's the benefit of self-employment. Your only hard obligations are ones you make yourself. In an art related field, you don't even have the responsibility of having a higher purpose. Working in a hospital is important work. People die if you shirk your duties.

Worst case scenario here, there's one less book in the world. A tragedy from a philosophical standpoint for some people, but ultimately meaningless.

He only sold the first books because of the implicit promise of finishing the series. If he marketed the original books under the premise of only telling half the story, do you think people would have bought them? I also guarantee you that he has a contract with his publisher that he's in violation of. He's just become a large enough figure that it's not worth it to them to pursue it.

To stay with the art analogy, if I sold you the first two pieces of a triptych with the understanding that I'm working on the last piece for you to purchase, and then chose not to finish it, would you have the right to be upset? Of course you would.

This, also, is not just wrong, but incredibly toxic. It's the same kind of attitude that says "well if an actor didn't want to be stalked and harassed at all hours of the day by rabid fans and paparazzi they shouldn't have become actors/politicians/musicians".

People are people. The only information you're entitled to about another person is what they willingly share, or are legally obligated to share.

This is the second time you've insulted me in two posts. I'm going to be charitable and assume they were both unintentional, but please be more careful with your words.

Saying that someone should fulfill their professional obligations is not even in the same realm as saying someone shouldn't have a right to a personal life. I'm really struggling to see how you think that's a good analogy. Someone's art can of course be personal, but once they choose to market that art to the public it ceases to be so.

[Rynjin]

He only sold the first books because of the implicit promise of finishing the series. If he marketed the original books under the premise of only telling half the story, do you think people would have bought them? I also guarantee you that he has a contract with his publisher that he's in violation of. He's just become a large enough figure that it's not worth it to them to pursue it.

To stay with the art analogy, if I sold you the first two pieces of a triptych with the understanding that I'm working on the last piece for you to purchase, and then chose not to finish it, would you have the right to be upset? Of course you would.

If I paid for it in advance, yes.

However much you wish it were the case, GRRM was not. And I can guarantee you that if he were in violation of some contract, he would have been brought up for it. He is in no way too big to sue.

A writing career is just that: a career. You sign on for any job with the implicit understanding that you will be working for the employer in perpetuity (unless it's temp contract or freelance work).

Would you like to sue everyone who has ever quit a salaried position? Are people not allowed to retire anymore? Does the man who runs the local construction business need to keep working until he either dies or there are no buildings left in the world to construct?

What an abhorrent concept.

[Anteros]

If I paid for it in advance, yes.

However much you wish it were the case, GRRM was not. And I can guarantee you that if he were in violation of some contract, he would have been brought up for it. He is in no way too big to sue.

A writing career is just that: a career. You sign on for any job with the implicit understanding that you will be working for the employer in perpetuity (unless it's temp contract or freelance work).

Would you like to sue everyone who has ever quit a salaried position?

If they were employed under the premise of completing a project and didn't do so? Yes.

We've gotten sidetracked with the legal side of this discussion anyway. Regardless of whether an author has a legal obligation to finish a project they start (in most cases I agree that they do not), they absolutely have a moral obligation to do so. Or at least to make an honest attempt.

Does the man who runs the local construction business need to keep working until he either dies or there are no buildings left in the world to construct?

What an abhorrent concept.

Please stop fabricating strawmen and presenting them as if they're my opinion.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Thread re-opened. Please tone down the hostility, everyone.

[Psyren]

Back on topic, and to address a few counterpoints I saw at the end of the last thread:

1) I didn't see "widespread disappointment" at Rand being the Dragon. Sure we could have spent more time with him, and I really hope Amazon listens to the feedback that 8 eps per season is too few for what they're trying to accomplish. (I mean come on suits, even GoT S1 got 10 and that was a way bigger gamble than this!) But what I saw far more than that was excitement - "okay, this guy might be the Dragon, but there is still clearly some weird stuff going on with the other four." And now the big question is whether any of them will fall to the Shadow, with the three boys (especiallly Mat) being closest to that precipice. Meanwhile the book readers I've seen - well, the positive ones - are excited that E & N get to be ta'veren this time around.

2) Egwene being better at a single (albeit important) weave in this version that she wasn't good at in the books does not make her "mini-Nynaeve." The implication that all there is to Nynaeve is healing ability, and all Egwene needs to be like her is talent with it, is just false. And even if we only look at the show, she hasn't pulled off a healing feat like Nynaeve has. (And frankly, having only two decent healers in the main cast for the first half of the series - maybe three if you count Alanna? - was something I found annoying in the books too.)

3) I still think links being unsafe is a solid change. It foments more drama for the audience, both during the link itself and even beforehand when it is being formed. This is vital because we can't sit inside the characters' heads like we do in the books to understand when they're feeling strain, helplessness or desperation while channeling. Plus there is precedent in the books, what with the Aes Sedai who linked to create the Eye of the World in the first place all killing themselves doing so before they could tell the Green Man what it was supposed to be used for - which appears to be a world detail RJ changed later like so many others, but is still a valid source of inspiration. Moreover, there isn't any scene in the books where a llnk being unsafe would have materially changed the outcome, so it's nothing more than a minor setting detail that can be discarded for Rule of TV.

4) Mioraine can simultaneously believe the Male Aes Sedai were arrogant and that they made the best they could of a series of bad choices. To say nothing of the fact that a great deal of Tower education has been shaped by

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Ishamael through the Black Ajah anyway, training even Moiraine herself wasn't totally immune to.

[Traab]

Back on topic, and to address a few counterpoints I saw at the end of the last thread:

1) I didn't see "widespread disappointment" at Rand being the Dragon. Sure we could have spent more time with him, and I really hope Amazon listens to the feedback that 8 eps per season is too few for what they're trying to accomplish. (I mean come on suits, even GoT S1 got 10 and that was a way bigger gamble than this!) But what I saw far more than that was excitement - "okay, this guy might be the Dragon, but there is still clearly some weird stuff going on with the other four." And now the big question is whether any of them will fall to the Shadow, with the three boys (especiallly Mat) being closest to that precipice. Meanwhile the book readers I've seen - well, the positive ones - are excited that E & N get to be ta'veren this time around.

2) Egwene being better at a single (albeit important) weave in this version that she wasn't good at in the books does not make her "mini-Nynaeve." The implication that all there is to Nynaeve is healing ability, and all Egwene needs to be like her is talent with it, is just false. And even if we only look at the show, she hasn't pulled off a healing feat like Nynaeve has. (And frankly, having only two decent healers in the main cast for the first half of the series - maybe three if you count Alanna? - was something I found annoying in the books too.)

3) I still think links being unsafe is a solid change. It foments more drama for the audience, both during the link itself and even beforehand when it is being formed. This is vital because we can't sit inside the characters' heads like we do in the books to understand when they're feeling strain, helplessness or desperation while channeling. Plus there is precedent in the books, what with the Aes Sedai who linked to create the Eye of the World in the first place all killing themselves doing so before they could tell the Green Man what it was supposed to be used for - which appears to be a world detail RJ changed later like so many others, but is still a valid source of inspiration. Moreover, there isn't any scene in the books where a llnk being unsafe would have materially changed the outcome, so it's nothing more than a minor setting detail that can be discarded for Rule of TV.

4) Mioraine can simultaneously believe the Male Aes Sedai were arrogant and that they made the best they could of a series of bad choices. To say nothing of the fact that a great deal of Tower education has been shaped by

Spoiler

Show

Ishamael through the Black Ajah anyway, training even Moiraine herself wasn't totally immune to.

1) From what I understand the disappointment wasnt that rand was the dragon, but in how the reveal was done and what rand did in his first act as the revealed dragon.

2) No thats not all nynaeve is as a character, but its still one of those things that her character is most known for. It would be as if they decided to make everyone in the edmonds field crew a master swordsman instead of just rand. No thats hardly rands defining characteristic, but its still something that was him. He spent a decent amount of the books learning from a master how to use his sword like one while everyone else had their own weapons and combat styles. The more you homogenize the characters and make them interchangeable, the less each character actually matters.

[lord_khaine]

Meanwhile the book readers I've seen - well, the positive ones - are excited that E & N get to be ta'veren this time around.

Its really not very informative to say that all the -positive- book readers are excited about the change.
Thats basically the same as going "after discounting all the people who dislike spicy food, then chilly tuesday has reached a 95% approval rating"

Meanwhile its quite likely that a decent part of the negative book readers, are negative because they loathe this change.
And think both its so typical its basically impossible for a male hero to have something special without it being stolen.
As well as that it dillutes the idea of Taveren. When everyone is a Taveren noone is one.

(And frankly, having only two decent healers in the main cast for the first half of the series - maybe three if you count Alanna? - was something I found annoying in the books too.)

This meanwhile does not make much sense either?
Nynavene isnt the only decent healer by a long shot. She is just one of the absolute best healers of the age. One of the few that could be called amazing.
But just for a start all the yellow Aes Sedai is suposed good or better. We certainly dont see anything to disprove that.

[Traab]

Its really not very informative to say that all the -positive- book readers are excited about the change.
Thats basically the same as going "after discounting all the people who dislike spicy food, then chilly tuesday has reached a 95% approval rating"

Meanwhile its quite likely that a decent part of the negative book readers, are negative because they loathe this change.
And think both its so typical its basically impossible for a male hero to have something special without it being stolen.
As well as that it dillutes the idea of Taveren. When everyone is a Taveren noone is one.



This meanwhile does not make much sense either?
Nynavene isnt the only decent healer by a long shot. She is just one of the absolute best healers of the age. One of the few that could be called amazing.
But just for a start all the yellow Aes Sedai is suposed good or better. We certainly dont see anything to disprove that.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, the thing about nynavene and her healing ability is

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she uses all the weaves to heal instead of only a few and uses that innate ability for her future big deals by curing stilling and gentling.

That doesnt mean everyone else sucks. Though too be fair I think the issue was the lack of characters who can heal well being included in the storyline. Yeah we are told the yellow ajah are great healers, much like the green ajah are great fighters, then we see little that backs up these statements for a long time in the books.

[Psyren]

1) From what I understand the disappointment wasnt that rand was the dragon, but in how the reveal was done and what rand did in his first act as the revealed dragon.

2) No thats not all nynaeve is as a character, but its still one of those things that her character is most known for. It would be as if they decided to make everyone in the edmonds field crew a master swordsman instead of just rand. No thats hardly rands defining characteristic, but its still something that was him. He spent a decent amount of the books learning from a master how to use his sword like one while everyone else had their own weapons and combat styles. The more you homogenize the characters and make them interchangeable, the less each character actually matters.

Again, Nynaeve is still the #1 healer. I highly doubt we'll see Egwene pull off anything like what she did in e4. Making her better than awful is hardly going to usurp that.

And think both its so typical its basically impossible for a male hero to have something special without it being stolen.

Wait, so Egwene is a Wolfbrother now? Nynaeve will be a super-gambler?

As well as that it dillutes the idea of Taveren. When everyone is a Taveren noone is one.

A whopping two more ta'veren in the whole series is not "everyone"

This meanwhile does not make much sense either?
Nynavene isnt the only decent healer by a long shot. She is just one of the absolute best healers of the age. One of the few that could be called amazing.
But just for a start all the yellow Aes Sedai is suposed good or better. We certainly dont see anything to disprove that.

I said main cast for a reason. Literally none of the Yellows in the books are even close to that.

The most major one we see (Romanda) doesn't even do any healing, she's there to be a political obstacle.

Yeah we are told the yellow ajah are great healers, much like the green ajah are great fighters, then we see little that backs up these statements for a long time in the books.

Correct.

[Taevyr]

Back on topic, and to address a few counterpoints I saw at the end of the last thread:

1) I didn't see "widespread disappointment" at Rand being the Dragon. Sure we could have spent more time with him, and I really hope Amazon listens to the feedback that 8 eps per season is too few for what they're trying to accomplish. (I mean come on suits, even GoT S1 got 10 and that was a way bigger gamble than this!) But what I saw far more than that was excitement - "okay, this guy might be the Dragon, but there is still clearly some weird stuff going on with the other four." And now the big question is whether any of them will fall to the Shadow, with the three boys (especiallly Mat) being closest to that precipice. Meanwhile the book readers I've seen - well, the positive ones - are excited that E & N get to be ta'veren this time around.

Saying "the positive book readers are excited about the changes" isn't exactly a meaningful statistic, and my main problem with that change is 1) it dilutes the importance and uniqueness of ta'veren, and 2) it makes their accomplishments less their own. In the books, Egwene does what she does without fate either handholding or forcing her. She's fundamentally a driven, ambitious and stubborn character who refuses to be used as a mere political tool: her advancing as far as she does without having any in-world plot armor or fate forcing things reinforces those characteristics of her, while making her Ta'veren dilutes that as the accomplishments she'll have will be due to fate just as much as her own drive, if not more.

I certainly hope Amazon's willing to give more time to the seris in hopes that it'll improve things, but I still think the writing itself has problems.

Egwene being better at a single (albeit important) weave in this version that she wasn't good at in the books does not make her "mini-Nynaeve." The implication that all there is to Nynaeve is healing ability, and all Egwene needs to be like her is talent with it, is just false. And even if we only look at the show, she hasn't pulled off a healing feat like Nynaeve has. (And frankly, having only two decent healers in the main cast for the first half of the series - maybe three if you count Alanna? - was something I found annoying in the books too.)

It takes away one of Nynaeve's main abilities and defining characteristics, which does homogenize the main cast. And I honestly don't understand why you would see a lack of healers in the series? We don't see much Yellows in the early series, and it's a plot point that Nynaeve's healing is so different from standard Aes Sedai healing they don't get her style and she has trouble understanding their "limited" style.

It's certainly true we could see more of the Ajah's being good at their Ajah, but that's a notable absence throughout the entire series.

3) I still think links being unsafe is a solid change. It foments more drama for the audience, both during the link itself and even beforehand when it is being formed. This is vital because we can't sit inside the characters' heads like we do in the books to understand when they're feeling strain, helplessness or desperation while channeling. Plus there is precedent in the books, what with the Aes Sedai who linked to create the Eye of the World in the first place all killing themselves doing so before they could tell the Green Man what it was supposed to be used for - which appears to be a world detail RJ changed later like so many others, but is still a valid source of inspiration. Moreover, there isn't any scene in the books where a llnk being unsafe would have materially changed the outcome, so it's nothing more than a minor setting detail that can be discarded for Rule of TV.

I can see why changing linking to unsafe is a good change for later suspense, even though I'm fairly like it could cause more trouble down the line than it's worth (similar to other changes, but those discussions've been had),

Spoiler

Show

e.g. Egwene's defense of the White Tower consisted of teaching/guiding novices to link up because it protects them from shielding, burning themselves out and other consequences of wielding the One Power in large-scale combat, as well as making it far harder to capture them. In this continuity, linking just makes you do bigger booms without any of those protective additions, which makes the linking of large groups of novices go from "brilliant tactic to raid the angreal room" to "desperate tactic that might work but will almost certainly burn out a bunch of untrained novices in their first battle"

Additionally, them just linking up without any trouble or training and dealing far more damage than a group of trained Aes Sedai could do earlier in the season is a bit ridiculous. You could chalk it up to them being Ta'veren in this continuity, but then just see my misgivings about that change above.

4) Mioraine can simultaneously believe the Male Aes Sedai were arrogant and that they made the best they could of a series of bad choices. To say nothing of the fact that a great deal of Tower education has been shaped by

Spoiler

Show

Ishamael through the Black Ajah anyway, training even Moiraine herself wasn't totally immune to.

Yes, show-Moiraine can do so. But that makes her fundamentally different from book-Moiraine, in ways that have been stated multiple times in the previous thread whenever you made this argument. Fairly certain we're better off agreeing to disagree on that at this point.

[Psyren]

In the books, Egwene does what she does without fate either handholding or forcing her.

Fate forced all of them, Egwene included. There were prophecies about her accomplishments as far back as book one; one of the first things Min sees around her is

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the White Flame, which gets a mention in the show as well

and the big overarching prophecy - the shadow-and-sparks one - surrounds all 5 of them in the books. If accomplishments being fated doesn't detract from Rand, Mat, and Perrin's successes, I don't see why it would for the other two. They were just being positioned as less-than for no reason, despite things like

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saving the White Tower, defeating multiple Forsaken, healing stilling and uniting all the Borderlands

being feats more than worthy of the ta'veren title.

It takes away one of Nynaeve's main abilities and defining characteristics, which does homogenize the main cast. And I honestly don't understand why you would see a lack of healers in the series? We don't see much Yellows in the early series, and it's a plot point that Nynaeve's healing is so different from standard Aes Sedai healing they don't get her style and she has trouble understanding their "limited" style.

I still disagree. Nynaeve can still be "best" even if Egwene is now "not bad."

I can see why changing linking to unsafe is a good change for later suspense, even though I'm fairly like it could cause more trouble down the line than it's worth (similar to other changes, but those discussions've been had),

Spoiler

Show

e.g. Egwene's defense of the White Tower consisted of teaching/guiding novices to link up because it protects them from shielding, burning themselves out and other consequences of wielding the One Power in large-scale combat, as well as making it far harder to capture them. In this continuity, linking just makes you do bigger booms without any of those protective additions, which makes the linking of large groups of novices go from "brilliant tactic to raid the angreal room" to "desperate tactic that might work but will almost certainly burn out a bunch of untrained novices in their first battle"

Additionally, them just linking up without any trouble or training and dealing far more damage than a group of trained Aes Sedai could do earlier in the season is a bit ridiculous. You could chalk it up to them being Ta'veren in this continuity, but then just see my misgivings about that change above.

First, Amalisa is the one who forms the link, and she did have Tower training. As I reminded Rynjin, the Kin showed us you can be put out of the Tower even after learning things like how to link. Remember, raw strength is not the only reason someone can fail to attain the shawl.

Second, none of the plot points in your spoiler are impacted by linking being dangerous:

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Being harder to shield a link hasn't come up in the show yet, and the novice circle was led by Egwene so burning them out is unlikely.

Also, "raiding the angreal room" is definitely a plot point the show needs to change. If it was that easy to just go grab Vora's Sa'angreal, there's no reason the Black Ajah wouldn't have done it long since - especially Alviarin, who knows how to teleport and knows where the damn thing is! Reading that part made me go "bwuh?"

[Saph]

Saying "the positive book readers are excited about the changes" isn't exactly a meaningful statistic, and my main problem with that change is 1) it dilutes the importance and uniqueness of ta'veren, and 2) it makes their accomplishments less their own. In the books, Egwene does what she does without fate either handholding or forcing her. She's fundamentally a driven, ambitious and stubborn character who refuses to be used as a mere political tool: her advancing as far as she does without having any in-world plot armor or fate forcing things reinforces those characteristics of her, while making her Ta'veren dilutes that as the accomplishments she'll have will be due to fate just as much as her own drive, if not more.

Given that the show has so far completely failed to use the concept of ta'veren in any kind of meaningful way, I don't think it matters in the slightest whether they make someone ta'veren or not. I get the feeling that the show writers think "ta'veren" just means "special": there's no point expecting them to put any kind of deep thought into whether to call a character ta'veren.

[Rodin]

Given that the show has so far completely failed to use the concept of ta'veren in any kind of meaningful way, I don't think it matters in the slightest whether they make someone ta'veren or not. I get the feeling that the show writers think "ta'veren" just means "special": there's no point expecting them to put any kind of deep thought into whether to call a character ta'veren.

To be fair, Ta'veren has almost no consequence in the first book either. There are a couple of places you can point to coincidences as being evidence of it, and that's all.

The coincidences that I see as being Ta'veren related being:

1) Perrin managing to meet Elyas in the middle of nowhere.

2) Rand and Mat emerging from the forest outside Shadar Logoth exactly as a ship happens to be passing.

3) Rand falling into the palace gardens exactly as Elayne and Gawyn happen to be passing.

Those are all improbable circumstances that can be explained by Ta'veren - and all were written out of the first season. They're also not great examples of the warpng nature of Ta'veren - they're just the sort of coincidences that drive any adventure story (like Luke Skywalker just happening to be in the market for droids when the MacGuffin carrying R2-D2 is for sale).

The more explicit cases show up more in Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising. Rand leaves a trail of chaos in the former, and in the latter Perrin being Ta'veren is explicitly called out as the only reason he's able to order the Two Rivers folk around.

[Saph]

To be fair, Ta'veren has almost no consequence in the first book either. There are a couple of places you can point to coincidences as being evidence of it, and that's all.

True, but it does get explained by Loial, and that explanation becomes pretty important later on. The important thing about being ta'veren in the Wheel of Time isn't the random weirdness, it's that the Pattern has decided that you're supposed to do something, and you don't get a choice. I don't get the impression that the show writers understand that part.

The more explicit cases show up more in Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising. Rand leaves a trail of chaos in the former, and in the latter Perrin being Ta'veren is explicitly called out as the only reason he's able to order the Two Rivers folk around.

I think my favourite example is in Fires of Heaven with Mat's attempts to get away from the battle. It shows what happens when a ta'veren tries to get out of doing what the Pattern wants them to.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

To be fair, Ta'veren has almost no consequence in the first book either. There are a couple of places you can point to coincidences as being evidence of it, and that's all.

The coincidences that I see as being Ta'veren related being:

1) Perrin managing to meet Elyas in the middle of nowhere.

2) Rand and Mat emerging from the forest outside Shadar Logoth exactly as a ship happens to be passing.

3) Rand falling into the palace gardens exactly as Elayne and Gawyn happen to be passing.

Those are all improbable circumstances that can be explained by Ta'veren - and all were written out of the first season. They're also not great examples of the warpng nature of Ta'veren - they're just the sort of coincidences that drive any adventure story (like Luke Skywalker just happening to be in the market for droids when the MacGuffin carrying R2-D2 is for sale).

The more explicit cases show up more in Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising. Rand leaves a trail of chaos in the former, and in the latter Perrin being Ta'veren is explicitly called out as the only reason he's able to order the Two Rivers folk around.

Rand picking a red wrapping for his sword instead of a white one in Caemlyn would also be my go-to. A slight difference in price at the one stand he was buying from that completely changed how the court scene proceeded.

[Rodin]

I think my favourite example is in Fires of Heaven with Mat's attempts to get away from the battle. It shows what happens when a ta'veren tries to get out of doing what the Pattern wants them to.

Mat's ta'veren status gets cooler the longer you think about it.

The Pattern needed Mat as the general to lead Rand's armies. However, he's a farmboy. So how does it deal with that? It makes sure Mat goes through the door in Rhuidean and gets the memories of great generals downloaded into his brain.

How do you get Mat to Rhuidean? You carve great big holes in his memory so that he goes looking for a solution.

How do you carve great big holes in his memory? By getting him to go through Shadar Logoth and pick up the dagger.

Perrin and Rand manifest their ta'veren powers by default - Rand channels, Perrin spontaneously develops wolfiness. Mat gets his by a series of seemingly random events...exactly what you'd expect for The Gambler.

[Traab]

Perrins taverin power is his gift of gab. The man is able to talk people into just about anything. He very nearly convinces the tinkers to abandon one of the tenets of their path, to the point the leader is astonished at how close it came to working. Its possible had rand and matt been there it would have worked as I think its implied the effects they have on the pattern are magnified when they are together.

[Mechalich]

Perrins taverin power is his gift of gab. The man is able to talk people into just about anything. He very nearly convinces the tinkers to abandon one of the tenets of their path, to the point the leader is astonished at how close it came to working. Its possible had rand and matt been there it would have worked as I think its implied the effects they have on the pattern are magnified when they are together.

I think it's more that Perrin is supposed to just be highly charismatic generally. People like him, multiple highly attractive and high status women are massively into him, and people of a wide variety of different backgrounds ranging from Aiel to Seanchan to Masema are willing to follow him. Ta'veren is probably part of it, but he's just supposed to have this personal magnetism generally that impacts people. Even when he's around Rand and very clearly subordinate to him, many people are much more willing to go to Perrin with whatever issue they have than try to find Rand. This is at least partly bound up in his wolf talents, because the wolves follow him too. I think he's supposed to convey a sort of 'natural alpha' status.

[Tvtyrant]

I think it's more that Perrin is supposed to just be highly charismatic generally. People like him, multiple highly attractive and high status women are massively into him, and people of a wide variety of different backgrounds ranging from Aiel to Seanchan to Masema are willing to follow him. Ta'veren is probably part of it, but he's just supposed to have this personal magnetism generally that impacts people. Even when he's around Rand and very clearly subordinate to him, many people are much more willing to go to Perrin with whatever issue they have than try to find Rand. This is at least partly bound up in his wolf talents, because the wolves follow him too. I think he's supposed to convey a sort of 'natural alpha' status.

His power seems to be that everyone interprets his words and actions in the best light possible.

[Traab]

His power seems to be that everyone interprets his words and actions in the best light possible.

Except for faile.

[Anteros]

Except for faile.

Faile gets a bad rap. She very rarely acts on her hurt feelings, and always tries to smooth things over. It's not her fault that her husband can magically read emotions and acts completely irrationally all the time as a result.

[Mechalich]

Faile gets a bad rap. She very rarely acts on her hurt feelings, and always tries to smooth things over. It's not her fault that her husband can magically read emotions and acts completely irrationally all the time as a result.

There's also a major set of cultural barriers between them and the fact that while Faile rebels against her status is a pretty intense way she is immensely status conscious in a way that Perrin simply is not. Perrin - and actually pretty much all Two Rivers characters general since its part of their idealized societal nature - is from and broadly believes in the idea of a classless society where everyone is equal. Faile is high nobility from the extremely hierarchical Borderlands. This is important in that Faile and Perrin's relationship doesn't become rocky until Perrin ascends to nobility on his own, and Faile constantly attempts to steer him to make decisions based on her understanding of realpolitik rather than his personal ideals. The books actually make the distinct point that, once the two of them solve some communication issues, this is highly complimentary. Unfortunately, that whole process got dragged out really badly.

Handling the Perrin/Faile relationship is complicated, and the show has raised numerous additional barriers to getting it right. Making Perrin into a widower, teasing a romance with Egwene, and failing to portray him with any real charisma at all because it's buried too deep under the invented trauma. The show's treatment of Perrin is worrisome generally, because Perrin will have to do a lot more going forward. Perrin's role in Eye of the World is small, mostly used to introduce his wolf gifts (which the show mishandled and will now have to redo at least in part), but it grows through book 2 and is very substantial in books 3 and 4 - which are pretty much peak Perrin since most of his later book stuff is either significantly unimportant to the plot or generally regarded as subpar material. Unlike Mat, who can be allowed to gestate for a while since he essentially emerges from a bizarre chrysalis as a largely new person through the course of events, season 2 needs to hit the ground running with Perrin right out the gate.

That's a big lift. It's not impossible, for example, in The Witcher it was very clear at the end of season one that the Ciri parts were weak and that everything about the character needed to be elevated in a hurry and the show, and actress Freya Allan, absolutely delivered, but my confidence in such a feat is low.

[Taevyr]

Faile gets a bad rap. She very rarely acts on her hurt feelings, and always tries to smooth things over. It's not her fault that her husband can magically read emotions and acts completely irrationally all the time as a result.

Yeah, this. Faile's messed up cultural sensibilities might cause a lot of the problems between the two, but Perrin also consistently acts on the feelings he "smells" on Faile, while disregarding whether she ever actually acted on said feelings. Meanwhile, Faile is unaware Perrin can even smell these emotions and is thus left completely in the dark. The fact that we almost always see it through Perrin's viewpoint simply makes it more likely for the reader to align with his reading of the situation.

I mean, imagine treating a guy who feels anger relatively quickly but hardly ever acts on it like he has immense anger issues and needs to be helped with that. Or in this case, a woman who gets jealous easily, knows that, and she finds her husband regularly walking on eggshells around her and reassuring her that there's nothing going on with another woman that's regularly around him. Meanwhile, she hasn't really given him any reason to think it annoys her beyond feeling jealous, which he shouldn't be aware of.

It's the same core issue as 90% of non-epic issues in Randland: people not communicating about things that really should be known and discussed between both parties.

[Anteros]

At this point I'm not sure it's even possible to make Perrin's relationship palatable. The show has portrayed him as the type of person who would kill his wife, not really mourn over it for any length of time, then immediately move on to trying to start something with his best friend's girl instead. I don't know what they're trying to accomplish with that character, but making him sympathetic isn't it. Having him move on to yet another woman in such a short period of time is an even worse look. I don't think the best writers alive could salvage the mess they've made there.

[Rodin]

That's a big lift. It's not impossible, for example, in The Witcher it was very clear at the end of season one that the Ciri parts were weak and that everything about the character needed to be elevated in a hurry and the show, and actress Freya Allan, absolutely delivered, but my confidence in such a feat is low.

That's mostly not the fault of the show. Ciri's role in the first book she appears in is pretty minimal. We have her adventure with the elves, and we have Geralt trying to reach Sodden in order to rescue Ciri. The battle at Sodden is not shown, her flight from Cintra is not shown, Cahir isn't properly introduced...etc etc.

As a result, virtually everything in the Ciri portion was invented for the show pulling from later flashbacks and general filling in of the gaps. I thought they did a good job considering Ciri is less a character than a MacGuffin until Geralt takes her to Kaer Morhen and we get to know who she is.

It's an issue I foresee the Wheel of Time show having increasing difficulty with as time goes on. There are a lot of characters who are introduced briefly, then go away and are unimportant for a book (or several) before suddenly playing an important role in a later book. The show's failure to handle this with Padan Fain, Min, Elaida, Elyas, Tam, Thom...and that's just book 1, and I feel like I'm missing characters. The contrast between this and The Witcher (which deliberately introduced major characters early to let the audience get to know them over time) is striking.

[Chen]

The Witcher may be a better show (Im still torn) but its not a better adaptation IMO. Season two’s main antagonist isnt in the books at all and they mangled character traits for the ones in season 2 pretty badly. Really season 2 failed for me in a similar way to WoT; it **** the bed with a rushed end of season. The first episode of season 2 is right out of the books and is probably the strongest episode. It kinda just goes downhill from there. WoT definitey needs to do better than this in Season 2 unless they plan on just throwing the book story out the window like the Witcher seems to have done.

[Saph]

WoT definitey needs to do better than this in Season 2 unless they plan on just throwing the book story out the window.

Oh, they're absolutely going to throw the book story out the window. If you read some of their interviews about what they're planning to do with The Great Hunt, they talk about how much of a problem it is that Moiraine only shows up for one chapter. As far as the show writers are concerned, Moiraine is supposed to be the protagonist, which means that we can expect the events of the book to be totally rewritten to centre around her instead of Rand.