Critical Role Series--January 28th

[ecarden]

The trailer is out.

As is the schedule for release. Looks like it's being released in 3 episode chunks each week on Friday, the 28th-18th. 12 episodes total.

Looked good. Tone's hard to read on a trailer, but seemed to capture the crazy/serious/funny tone pretty well.

[JadedDM]

First episode is out, and I thought it was pretty good.

[Saelethil]

I felt like the first couple episodes were a little rushed but the 3rd episode was solid. Considering that the first two episodes cover a pre-stream arc I expect episode 3 to be a better example of what’s to come.

[JadedDM]

It's interesting to see the necessary changes that had to be made due to things like copyright. Like how they can't say the name of Pike's goddess, which I assume is because that belongs to Paizo.

[ecarden]

It's interesting how much difficulty I have with this show, not because of anything wrong with it (it's really quite good), but because my brain keeps going 'that's not how it happened' and remembering the Critical Role episodes being adapted. The pace, especially in episode 3 and hopefully going forward, is about standard for a modern animated show, but compared to 4-5 hour Critical Role episodes, it feels like it's speeding along at lightning speed...which it has to, of course. The Briarwood arc that I believe is being adapted in the last 10 episodes, is 14 4-5 hour episodes in Critical Role.

But my brain keeps identifying things that are missing and whining about them. I wonder if it would actually work better for folks who haven't watched Critical Role, or if I'm an outlier.

[Mad Puppy]

Watched the first episode...I'm not an avid watcher of Critical Role to begin with.
For me I gotta be honest. I didn't much care for it. Far far too campy for my liking. I expected more I suppose. The Animation style is a bit weak in my opinion. The puking and too much drinking, the over sexed Gnome.....very sophmoric humor and execution.
I don't know I guess I like my fantasy a bit more serious I suppose....

[Cheesegear]

Finally, an fantasy show targeted at generally-adults, mostly based off of Dungeons & Dragons.

Thanks!
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...
...

I hate it.

[BRC]

I enjoyed it despite itself, but hope it will get better.

Spoiler: Spoilers I guess

Show

Part of the issue is that they lean heavily on the "NOT YOUR AVERAGE FANTASY HEROES" schtick, but considering how prominent Dungeons and Dragons is in this day and age, not a little bit due to the popularity of Critical Role itself, a lot of people's familiarity with Fantasy Heroes IS going to be D&D Characters.

And, well, Vox Machina is pretty generic from that front. Grog and Scanlan especially are pretty one-note jokes a lot of the time, which makes sense since they were literally their player's first characters. Lots of jokes about drinking ale and going to brothels. The idea of "OUR HEROES are a bunch of hedonistic mercenaries who barely have a heroic bone in their body" is a concept people are going to be quite familiar with anyway.

There's a lot of shock-as-humor, especially in the early scenes. I'm not opposed to them doing an R-Rated cartoon, doing so actually works really well. I'm a big fan of Critical Role, these are pretty skilled storytellers, so I'm kind of surprised to see them resort so much to juvenile shock humor. Yeah, that stuff was in the game, but in an unedited D&D live stream, it's barely a blip. Here, especially focused so hard into the character introducing bar scene, it's going to turn a lot of people off on the whole cast.

My hope is that they've kind of gotten it out of their systems, and once they settle down to Tell A Story instead of just flexing that "HEY WE GOT A CARTOON MADE!" the comic relief sections will focus more on character work and physical comedy (Because, hey, they can do physical comedy now that they've got a proper visual element!) Rather than juvenile shock humor.

Edit: The issue with "A DnD Show" is that once you transfer it to a new medium, it's not D&D anymore.

So your choices are

1) A Fantasy Story, which must stand on it's own merits as A Fantasy Story, the fact that it's "Like something from D&D" isn't much of a bonus on it's own.

2) A Show ABOUT D&D, with early OOTS style rules jokes and such.

3) A show that FEELS like a D&D game. But, part of what differentiates the Feel of a D&D game from a real fantasy story is screwing around and trying to make your friends laugh, which doesn't translate well to another medium.

[Draconi Redfir]

Watched the first episode...I'm not an avid watcher of Critical Role to begin with.
For me I gotta be honest. I didn't much care for it. Far far too campy for my liking. I expected more I suppose. The Animation style is a bit weak in my opinion. The puking and too much drinking, the over sexed Gnome.....very sophmoric humor and execution.
I don't know I guess I like my fantasy a bit more serious I suppose....

I'd definitely say push through until the third episode at least. the third episode is a lot more serious in tone i think. If you don't like the third episode though, then yeah it might just not be for you.

[oudeis]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who had such a strong reaction to this: childish humor, shallow characterization, cliched dialogue, poor performances, mediocre action and above all the manifest belief that 'adult behavior' -swearing and sexual content- equates to 'mature entertaniment'.

I hope this is a big hit for the CR team, but by the same token I wince thinking about the flood of second-rate clones, follow-ups, pale imitations, and wannabes that are sure to follow if this succeeds.

[Mordar]

Watched the first episode...I'm not an avid watcher of Critical Role to begin with.
For me I gotta be honest. I didn't much care for it. Far far too campy for my liking. I expected more I suppose. The Animation style is a bit weak in my opinion. The puking and too much drinking, the over sexed Gnome.....very sophmoric humor and execution.
I don't know I guess I like my fantasy a bit more serious I suppose....

Hugely disappointed as well. The art style appeals to me, but this just felt like an expensive version of the "attack the darkness" or "Am I getting drunk yet?" bits from 20+ years ago.

Finally, an fantasy show targeted at generally-adults, mostly based off of Dungeons & Dragons.

Thanks!
...
...
...
...

I hate it.

Really disagree with the bolded section. To me it very much comes off as targeting the 13-year-old who is very proud of his ability to drop f-bombs and make sex jokes because they saw something dirty on the internet once. Hugely missed opportunity (to me).

Missed the quote here, but for BRC:

Never listened to or watched the streams, so you hit the nail on the head for me here...after watching the first 3 episodes I am left very much with not wanting to bother to continue with the series *much less* seek out and spend time listening/watching other work. In short, I'd heard these glowing reviews of Critical Role so watched this (relatively) high-dollar port of what they do and was left not just unimpressed but actively disappointed that this work was the supposed paragon of how games should be played. My friends and I were past this point by junior high.

Now, given the array of people who extol the Critical Role product, I know this must have been an intentional decision and not representative of the true product (akin to HBO escalating the on-screen sex/nudity of GoT for the first few episodes to hook viewers they thought wouldn't otherwise want to watch some LotR-stle fantasy stuff), but trying to appeal to the crowd that would love the puking drunk, banging-the-innkeeper's-daughter, utterly unable to show any decorum when meeting the king, etc., antics means it doesn't appeal to me.

On your 3 options:
Record of Lodoss War seems to hit #1 well for me. Slayers kind of did the same for #3. Anime isn't for everyone (and I'm not a general fan), but enjoyed these two.
The Gamers tagged #2 for me (and the sequel did a nice job on a CCG version that felt sort of L5Rish to me).

- M

[BRC]

Missed the quote here, but for BRC:

Never listened to or watched the streams, so you hit the nail on the head for me here...after watching the first 3 episodes I am left very much with not wanting to bother to continue with the series *much less* seek out and spend time listening/watching other work. In short, I'd heard these glowing reviews of Critical Role so watched this (relatively) high-dollar port of what they do and was left not just unimpressed but actively disappointed that this work was the supposed paragon of how games should be played. My friends and I were past this point by junior high.

Now, given the array of people who extol the Critical Role product, I know this must have been an intentional decision and not representative of the true product (akin to HBO escalating the on-screen sex/nudity of GoT for the first few episodes to hook viewers they thought wouldn't otherwise want to watch some LotR-stle fantasy stuff), but trying to appeal to the crowd that would love the puking drunk, banging-the-innkeeper's-daughter, utterly unable to show any decorum when meeting the king, etc., antics means it doesn't appeal to me.

So, the bawdy jokes and the like are part of the streams, but 1) They are, relatively, not NEARLY so much of the actual runtime.
And 2) There's a pretty major factor of difference between the mediums.


A big part of the appeal of Critical Role in particular is that their format, the unedited streams, give a pretty strong "Hanging out with your friends playing D&D" vibe. So, Scanlan's whole character isn't quite as egregious because, when it does come up, everybody laughs around the table, and it's done because Sam knows his friends and knows what they find funny, and so the joke lands. It has a similar effect as a laugh-track in old sitcoms. Even if it's not your particular cup of tea, it helps contribute to the air of everybody sitting around having a good time playing D&D.

There also isn't the visual element. There's a world of difference between somebody saying "I run out of the room, completely nude" and showing somebody sprinting out of a room completely nude. The former is a minor humorous detail to the scene, the latter is, well, a constant, scene-defining feature. There's a world of difference between "my character vomits" and SEEING that vomit.


This does a one-two punch when translated to another format. Minor jokes become front-and-center, and the "Hanging out with friends having a good time" vibe is gone. Once you take that vibe away, the story that's left isn't really anything special. A layer of separation is gone, we're not having a good time with out friends anymore, we're just Watching A Show.


That said, I think it's going to get better as it becomes more plot driven. The first two episodes suffer due to a lack of focus. The characters, who we barely like, are just doing the quest, which we barely understand, for Money. Which, yeah, is how a lot of D&D games go, but that doesn't make good television. They fumble talking to the King because the Players at the table are more invested in having a good time than in impressing the king, because the GM wants the king to go ahead and give them the quest, they're not really worried about getting thrown out.

And this isn't "Bad D&D" per say, if everybody is having a good time screwing around, then by all means, screw around. But it doesn't translate well to the screen.

Hopefully, as they settle in to a more focused story, they will focus more on Telling A Good Story, and a lot less on trying to translate qualities that don't really make the jump from table to screen.

[JadedDM]

Honestly, I find these variations of the characters much more likable than their stream counterparts so far. They're so ridiculously Chaotic Stupid in Campaign One, especially the earlier episodes. At least this version has no hint of Tiberius, so that helps, too. And more Pike, as well, who was always a moderating influence on the group. (Although Ashley could get a bit Chaotic Stupid at times, as well.)

I got around to watching episodes 2 and 3 recently, and it looks like we're skipping the Kraghammer arc and going straight into the Briarwood arc. After some thought, I realized that makes a lot of sense. For one thing, the Kraghammer arc didn't really add anything to the story beyond introducing Lady Kima, whom the party has already met here anyway. Secondly, the Kraghammer arc features mind-flayers and beholders, which I assume they cannot legally use without permission. So while it would have been fun to see Clarota, I get it.

Speaking of which, I've made up a bit of a game for myself, where I try and collect every name or word they had to change for legal reasons. So far I've got: Sarenrae (now the Everlight), Bigby's Hand (now Scanlan's Hand) and Jenga (now Chenga).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mad Puppy
For me I gotta be honest. I didn't much care for it. Far far too campy for my liking. I expected more I suppose. The Animation style is a bit weak in my opinion. The puking and too much drinking, the over sexed Gnome.....very sophmoric humor and execution.
I don't know I guess I like my fantasy a bit more serious I suppose....

Originally Posted by oudeis
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who had such a strong reaction to this: childish humor, shallow characterization, cliched dialogue, poor performances, mediocre action and above all the manifest belief that 'adult behavior' -swearing and sexual content- equates to 'mature entertaniment'.

This was my impression from the trailers, and the main reason I’m not even trying to watch this. It just seemed crude and juvenile for the sake of being crude and juvenile, which I don’t find interesting or funny.

Just seems like a lost opportunity, which is a shame.

[Cheesegear]

To me it very much comes off as targeting the 13-year-old who is very proud of his ability to drop f-bombs and make sex jokes because they saw something dirty on the internet once.

The problem is that if you've got a show where f-bombs are dropped more than zero times, and you have gratuitous sexual references and acts, then that's weird. Because 13 year-olds can't watch it.

[Dienekes]

The problem is that if you've got a show where f-bombs are dropped more than zero times, and you have gratuitous sexual references and acts, then that's weird. Because 13 year-olds can't watch it.

Eh, unless things have changed since I was a 13 year old, we did anyway.

[Kriegspiel]

I hope this is a big hit for the CR team, but by the same token I wince thinking about the flood of second-rate clones, follow-ups, pale imitations, and wannabes that are sure to follow if this succeeds.

I generally agree, but if it gives us a resurrected Korgoth of Barbaria I'll call it a win.

[Dragonus45]

I never could get into the podcast. Running and playing styles are just too different for me and even when I was truck driving I did not have the time for kind of backlog. Show feels alright, but the "Yes And Chaotic Stupid" improv style feels turned up even higher with the characters distilled down to what feels like the lowest common denominator of who they were in the show. I'm hoping things will mellow out a bit as the show goes on? Or not I guess.

[Mordar]

The problem is that if you've got a show where f-bombs are dropped more than zero times, and you have gratuitous sexual references and acts, then that's weird. Because 13 year-olds can't watch it.

Eh, unless things have changed since I was a 13 year old, we did anyway.

Says every kid to their parents, as they hope Mom doesn't think to change the password on the main Prime account (that the kid set up in the first place). And as they think about moving their porn stash, their Special Collector's Edition Deadpool 4k UHD, and every other R-rated (or higher) media they have had access to since time immemorial.

There is a galaxy of difference between "not supposed to" and "can't".

- M

Yes, I did mean more mindset than chronological age, but it was handy shorthand. Also, the whole seeing-things-you're-not-allowed-to-yet is a total rite of passage for the 13ish age range

[Dragonus45]

Says every kid to their parents, as they hope Mom doesn't think to change the password on the main Prime account (that the kid set up in the first place). And as they think about moving their porn stash, their Special Collector's Edition Deadpool 4k UHD, and every other R-rated (or higher) media they have had access to since time immemorial.

There is a galaxy of difference between "not supposed to" and "can't".

- M

Yes, I did mean more mindset than chronological age, but it was handy shorthand. Also, the whole seeing-things-you're-not-allowed-to-yet is a total rite of passage for the 13ish age range

Truth, for example the real target audience of Deadpool is 16 year old boys regardless of what the actual rating turns out to be.

[SunsetWaraxe]

One of the big issues with this show is that there is not a lot of genre literacy in the mainstream for an animated high fantasy TV show that is targeted at teens and adults with a very large cast of main characters, all of whom are important to the plot and whom (generally) stick together all the time. So the first two episodes basically have to give that genre knowledge to the audience, which means the characters are going to be reduced to their most basic components, the plot will not be deep or intricate and there will be a lot of swearing, sex and violence to really showcase how this is not a show for kids.

Which is all well and good but... It does not make for a super compelling opening act for anyone familiar with the tropes of the genre.

Episode 3 really feels like where the TV show comes into its own. I truly feel like it was a mistake to only give people 3 episodes. I think the show would be on sturdier ground if Amazon had released four episodes at once, especially given that the first two episodes are, essentially, filler episodes who main purpose is to be genre training wheels.

[JadedDM]

With regards to the maturity level of the humor, I'll remind everyone that 'Vox Machina' is the party's second name. Their original name was the 'Super High Intensity Team.' So...yeah, this is about the level of maturity I was expecting.

Anyway, that aside, I have to comment on how impressed I am with the voice talent they got for this show. I mean, sure, Vox Machina are voicing their own characters, naturally. But I'm talking about the NPCs, too. They got Stephanie Beatriz (Mirabelle from Encanto) for Kima, Indira Varma for Allura (Ellaria Sand from Game of Thrones), Grey Griffin for Lady Briarwood (Azula from The Last Airbender), and David Tennant for General Krieg (Scrooge McDuck!!! Oh, and I guess he was a Doctor Who, too, at one point ).

[Palanan]

A number of clips are showing up online, and unfortunately they’re not pulling me in. Apart from the juvenile crudity, the characters themselves simply don’t appeal to me. Neurotic druid, naughty gnome, big dumb brute—they all feel very shallow and one-note. I haven’t seen a reason to like any of them, much less care what happens to them.

As someone who knows virtually nothing about the original group, this just leaves a bad taste. I certainly wouldn’t describe it as high fantasy, and I feel like this is doing a disservice to the genre.

[M1982]

Episode one immediately reminded me why I stopped watching their sessions early into their first campaing. I just don't like Vox Machina. My memories are not the best anymore (I quickly forgot about them after stopping watching the show), but I remember finding them very violent and bloodthirsty in their first campaign.

And then in episode one they immediately start of by escalating a tavern brawl (that hadn't even started yet) by using lethal force. Seriously? Not even the first punch had been thrown when Grog chops off someones hand. Wow

[Draconi Redfir]

Not even the first punch had been thrown when Grog chops off someones hand. Wow

the first punch was the chopping of the hand.

the two are one and the same

[BRC]

So, the original pitch was just for the two episodes, Kickstarter bumped them up to 5, Amazon brought them to 12.

My guess is that the Bar scene was supposed to be a quick encapsulation of "What Critical Role Is".

Unfortunately, a lot of the good stuff they do (storytelling, character work, ect) can't really be brought across in a single scene, and Vox Machina are not especially interesting characters on the surface (Compare to The Mighty Nein, who are a lot more Consumable as characters.) So they're like "Okay, this show is going to feature graphic violence and some crude humor".

The "Characters hang around in a bar and get into a barfight" is a fine idea for an opener, but combining that with "The things we want to carry across about this show (Filtered by "Things we can convey in a single short scene")" leads to the quite jarring opening that we got.

And, like, I think it could have been fixed by scaling it down just a little.

You want to show Grog is violent? Sure, have him deck the guy with a chair instead of cutting off his hand with an axe. Drop the vomit schtick, have Scanlan in the same room flirting with the barmaid while his friends are getting their butts kicked in the background so the "Scanlan, HELP US" line actually lands as a joke while still establishing Scanlan as an irrepressible horndog.

Boom, establish the same facts about the characters while still keeping them firmly in the "Lovable Scrappy Misfit" zone, and don't turn off your audience to the same degree. The cold open with the other adventuring party already established the level of gore and swearing to expect.

[HeyHoWhatUpYo]

I too am offended by animated vomit. Bad show is bad.

[3SecondCultist]

Just watched the most recent 3 episodes. It gets much better.

Spoiler: Episodes 4-6

Show

There is still the odd cheesy / cringey moment in there, but I'd say adapting the Whitestone arc is allowing for real dramatic consequences and emotional choices. The pacing feels a lot better, there aren't any overtly crass moments and the stakes feel more real. Focusing on the fight against the Briarwoods gives Vox Machina a real opponent, and the serious moments help give the show a mature tone without feeling like it's graphic for the sake of shock value.

The wraiths in Episode 4 were a standout example. They were legitimately scary and allowed for some delicious horror moments. Watching the guards at Greyskull Keep get picked off one by one was phenomenal. The undead-wolf horrors in Episode 5 made for another fun fight sequence. But for me, what has made this show already more compelling is the people of Whitestone. Seeing the resistance movement getting crushed, meeting Keeper Yennen and Archie (voiced impeccably by Gina Torres and Dominic Monaghan) and seeing the pathos of fighting overwhelming forces like undead giants and getting crushed gives Vox Machina a real purpose. The fact that the Briarwoods are not easy threats to deal with - having bested the party inn Episode 3 and used in moderation, allowing their shadow to loom tall over the narrative - also makes the story compelling.

There's a reason why the Briarwood arc is considered to be the first truly 'good' part of Critical Role. Everything leading up to that on the tabletop - the Underdark arc, the Slayer's Take, etc - are just kind of run-of-the-mill adventure stories. Having an actual myth arc against persistent, intelligent foes with real means is what Critical Role has always needed.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by 3SecondCultist
Just watched the most recent 3 episodes. It gets much better.

May well be, but at this point I have such a bad taste associated with this series I have no interest in going any further.

[Psyren]

I don't mind the gore and gratuitous sex/swearing but everything about Tal'dorei as a setting just seems so generic fantasy. It's like, ooh the first big bad was a blue dragon, now it's a couple of vampires, save some originality for the rest of us guys! The bard wants to bang everything in the monster manual, the rogue and ranger are broody with dark pasts, the barbarian is dumb and just wants to get drunk, the cleric is an earnest do-gooder, the female druid is a klutzy ingenue etc. Hell, the first time we see them all is in a tavern. It's the Big Book of D&D Cliches: The Show.

I'll support it more because I want more shows like this than because I'm super-invested in these folks and their campaign. It's a decent entry point for people not yet awash with these fantasy tropes I guess?