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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Note: I posted that in the wrong forum first.

    OK, i finally got something... First of all, we rolled the stats the old fashioned way, with the house rule that the best stat gets automatically bumped to 18, so that all of us would have at least one 18. So, i rolled a 10, 10, 13, 14, 14, 18. - the race is lesser Aasimar, to i get +2 on WIS and CHA

    I am somewhat of the designated party healer (aka the gimp), thats why the build i more focused on the cleric. So far i have:

    STR 14
    DEX 10
    CON 13
    INT 10
    WIS 20
    CHA 16

    And:

    Level Class Feat Special
    lvl1 Warlock (1) Feat (Open minded) Eldritch Blast 1D6, least invocation (Eldritch Glaive)
    lvl2 Cleric (1) Turn Undead (6x)
    lvl3 Cleric (2) Feat (Battle Caster)
    lvl4 Cleric (3)
    lvl5 Cleric (4)
    lvl6 Eldritch Disciple (1) Feat (Travel Devotion) Gift of Divine Patron (Wild Frenzy), least invocation (Baleful Utterance)
    lvl7 Eldritch Disciple (2) Eldritch Blast 2D6
    lvl8 Eldritch Disciple (3) least invocatrion (See the Unseen)
    lvl9 Eldritch Disciple (4) Feat (Quicken Spell) Eldritch Blast 3D6; Gift of divine Patron (Healing Blast)
    lvl10 Eldritch Disciple (5) least or lesser invocation (Ignore the Pyre)
    lvl11 Eldritch Disciple (6) Eldritch Blast 4D6
    lvl12 Eldritch Disciple (7) Feat (Divine Metamagic) least or lesser invocation (Beshadowed Blast), Gift of divine Patron (Protective Aura)

    Any advice/Suggestions? Do you see any major blunders?

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    I would switch Strength with Dexterity. The extra AC and initiative are more valuable than the bonus to melee touch attacks. Plus, ranged touch attacks need the bonus more, since they'll often be at a -4 due to firing into melee.

    Ignore the pyre is very weak, especially when you have access to cleric spells that do the same thing better. Try fell flight, flee the scene, or walk unseen instead.

    Travel Devotion is not worth it. It has a 1 round delay and sucks up swift actions that you need for Gifts, quickened spells, and potentially magic item activations, and you already have other ways to spend your extra turning attempts. You're better off spending 3500 gp on a pair of quicksilver boots (MIC) and using the feat slot for Extra Turning or Practiced Spellcaster.

    I have a very comprehensive warlock handbook linked in my signature, so I recommend checking it out!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I would switch Strength with Dexterity. The extra AC and initiative are more valuable than the bonus to melee touch attacks. Plus, ranged touch attacks need the bonus more, since they'll often be at a -4 due to firing into melee.
    I was under the impression, Eldritch Glaive would take care of that, since its a melee touch attack.

    But the rest is quite interesting. Turns out i have severely misread the Travel Devotion. :-) and i shall have a look into your handbook and make some adjustments :-)

    [EDIT: I noted that you, and a lot of other people actually take Nymph's Kiss at lvl1 in theit builds, isnt that a bit early to have proven you utter goodness to the world, so much so that you had the opportunity to swear an oath to a fey in some kind of fancy ritual? I feel that this is something that should have been part of the actually game and not something you can just take at lvl1. Do your GM's actually let you get away with something like that?]
    Last edited by St0nemender; 2022-01-12 at 06:08 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    I was under the impression, Eldritch Glaive would take care of that, since its a melee touch attack.

    But the rest is quite interesting. Turns out i have severely misread the Travel Devotion. :-) and i shall have a look into your handbook and make some adjustments :-)

    [EDIT: I noted that you, and a lot of other people actually take Nymph's Kiss at lvl1 in theit builds, isnt that a bit early to have proven you utter goodness to the world, so much so that you had the opportunity to swear an oath to a fey in some kind of fancy ritual? I feel that this is something that should have been part of the actually game and not something you can just take at lvl1. Do your GM's actually let you get away with something like that?]
    It’s not exactly a “oath” (Lenny face). Besides that RAW there’s not really any good rule for what qualifies exalted good other than you need to be Good aligned. A DM might disagree and not let you take it but the rules say there’s nothing stopping you. Just make sure not to stay a good boi.

    Personally I don’t think Nymph’s Kiss should be a exalted feat to begin with. Fey typically don’t scream “goodiest of two shoes” to me
    Last edited by Jervis; 2022-01-12 at 07:42 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Characters have an alignment starting from 1st level, so there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to start with an alignment-locked feat. The fact that it ostensibly involves a backstory event isn't an issue—there's a whole category of those kinds of feats and not only can they be taken at level 1, they can only be taken at level 1!

    In the case of Nymph's Kiss, its bonus skill points are not retroactive, so it is beneficial to have it as early as possible in order to maximize the value it gives you.

    While eldritch glaive is a melee touch attack, it is also a full-round action, and there will be situations where it will still be useful to attack at range, or when you'll only have access to a standard action. In those cases, it's useful to have the option of the ranged attack. And, probably more importantly, it improves your AC and initiative, both of which can be very important.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    If you want some early game optimization, I would suggest to pick the Summon Swarm invocation (and later switch to Eldritch Glaive when you have more blast damage and more attacks.

    The upside of warlock's Summon Swarm is that it is a standard action compared to the regular 1 round casting time and has only a duration of "concentration". This allows the warlock to have much more control to regular casters.
    Normally summoning the swarm is risky since it can't be controlled they attack anything on sight.


    1) the swarm comes into effect the same round you cast em, doing automatically their swarm damage.
    2) when you cast em directly on your enemies space(s), they have no reason to move in that round.
    3) since the invocation has a duration of "concentration" you sole need to chose not to concentrate the next round, to safely dismiss em without needing to spend any actions. Thus, you can recast it again, choose new target spaces and keep up the control over the swarms "movement". 1d6 AoE damage starting from lvl 1 is very strong. And we haven even talked about the distraction ability and the swarm specific abilities yet.

    Really, the best early game invocation. Later you can exchange it for something else.

    lesser invocation:

    As other have pointed out, Ignore the Pyre should be avoided.

    If you wanna play a more supportive and utility role, I would suggest "Flee the Scene". Having Dimension Door at will is just crazy. Enter and leave any building at will. Teleport you (squishy) buddies into a safe position. If you have an ubercharger buddy, you can reposition him every round to setup his next charge.

    Invisibility and/or Fly at will are also powerful choices.

    If you want to make a melee warlock (glaive), I would heavily suggest to invest points into the Hide skill. Later you pick Nightmares Made Real and get basically Hide In Plain Sight in it. Attack and hide at the end of you turn to be a bit more safe from your enemies.

    Note that Eldritch Glaive doesn't get any STR dmg. Thus, I agree with Troacctid that it's better to focus on Dex. Try to squeeze Weapon Finesse into your feats (lvl 3 or 6). This gives you DEX to hit with your glaive. Now you can dump STR without any problems and focus more on DEX (AC, melee attack bonus, ranged attack bonus everything in this stat).
    Since you are already MAD (multiple attribute dependent) this would lessen your problem a bit.

    If you want to have a ranged at will option, go for Eldritch Chain to hit multiple targets. (ranged attack relying on DEX)

    Even you touch spells will profit from Weapon finesse. Unless you intend to invest your feat for a specific other purpose (= have no feat free for this), i would heavily insist on this option ;)

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Don't listen to Gruftzwerg. Weapon Finesse is trash on this build. You don't need +2 to hit with your melee touch attacks. They're already going to hit. It's even more embarrassing if you're using divine power, because while it's in effect, your Strength is actually higher than your Dex, so you actively do not want to use your Dex to hit!

    Nightmares made real is also trash. Just a very bad invocation. Waste of a greater. It hits your allies just as hard as it hits your enemies, and the majority of its effect can be done with obscuring mist, a 1st-level spell that you already have access to. You can't meaningfully hide in it either, because it already blocks line of sight, making stealth redundant.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    One of the major problems this build has is the lack of intelligence and the resulting lack of skill points. Considering that Knowledge (planes) and knowledge (religion) are needed to get to the prestige classes, that leaves very few points to put into concentration and use magic device.

    Do you think it would be viable, to squeeze a level or two of Paladin of freedom in, to get the armor proficiencies and then go with cloistered cleric for the 6 SP per level? That would result in 18 SP from 3 levels of cleric instead of 6 SP. Or would i lose just too many cleric levels that way? Do i actually need to be proficient in medium armor anyway?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    At what level are you starting? Is it a new party or are you joining an existing party? I'm asking because you seem to start with a high level character. Which seems odd to me if it's a new party.

    Someone said something about use magic device. I tend to ignore that whole skill. From what I understand is that it is only useful if you max it out.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    At what level are you starting? Is it a new party or are you joining an existing party? I'm asking because you seem to start with a high level character. Which seems odd to me if it's a new party.

    Someone said something about use magic device. I tend to ignore that whole skill. From what I understand is that it is only useful if you max it out.
    We will start at lvl1, each doing a personal session with the DM that will get us to lvl3.

    However, D&D, much like Pathfinder, is a game where you need to plan out the whole character at the start of the game, since you will be unable to get into prestige classes if you mess up your early skill points and feats.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    We will start at lvl1, each doing a personal session with the DM that will get us to lvl3.

    However, D&D, much like Pathfinder, is a game where you need to plan out the whole character at the start of the game, since you will be unable to get into prestige classes if you mess up your early skill points and feats.
    I totally agree with you on planning your character out. I do that as well. Just started 2 new parties last year we started at level 1. But Covid-19 is preventing us from regular play. So far we have played about 10 sessions. In one group we are level 4 now the other level 3.

    Hopefully at the end of the year we will be level 8ish.

    Enjoy your party. Wish I had a healer in the party, but no one ever want to play the healbot.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Don't listen to Gruftzwerg. Weapon Finesse is trash on this build. You don't need +2 to hit with your melee touch attacks. They're already going to hit. It's even more embarrassing if you're using divine power, because while it's in effect, your Strength is actually higher than your Dex, so you actively do not want to use your Dex to hit!

    Nightmares made real is also trash. Just a very bad invocation. Waste of a greater. It hits your allies just as hard as it hits your enemies, and the majority of its effect can be done with obscuring mist, a 1st-level spell that you already have access to. You can't meaningfully hide in it either, because it already blocks line of sight, making stealth redundant.
    If you want to say that the ability to hide always is weak, that is your opinion. And as said, that is the main selling point for a melee caster build. Not the useless stuff that you get with obscuring mist.
    Other builds invest heavily to get "Hide in Plain Sight"; NMR basically gives the caster the same ability in its area.

    And even if you consider hide as weak for a caster. There are still reason to pick NMR:

    - if you are alone, place it on all enemies and take em out one by one

    - if you are in a team, place it on most (not all) of the enemies. They have their vision blocked (no spellcasting / ranged attacks) and are tethered to the ground (if they fail their save). So despite what enemy type you might face (melee / ranged / caster), it helps you to take out enemies from combat. You teammates can focus on those outside and those that manage to get out due to having successfully having made their saves and had enough movement (speed reduced to half).

    - since you can only have one NMR instance up at any time, you can replace it easily if it should start to annoy yourself or the enemies have moved to another spot. You can also abuse this to reveal only a part of the enemies to have an easier time to focus them.

    - NMR cover a bigger area than most other CC spells. It is shapeable by default, which can be strategically abused.


    And what does Obscuring Mist do?

    It sole blocks vision. 20 ft around you. How can you compare that to a spell that you can place at "close range" with 5 10ft cubes + a 10ft cube for each caster level?

    You can't use Obscuring Mist to CC the enemy ranged camp.
    You don't block their movement. (thus those in can still get out and attack you mates in the same turn).
    You don't stop anyone from acting. (as NMR does due to blocked sight and movement leaves most enemies without any option to do anything useful)

    And finally, NMR is an at will invocation that he/she can spam all day long as he sees it fit. Sure you could buy a wand of Obscuring Mist to spam it more often, but how is that gonna compete with the stuff NMR has to offer.

    ____________

    Btw, imho it is rude to suggest to not listen to someone. This is a forum discussion for anyone and not sole those that you like. Who are you to suggest to others that they shouldn't listen to someone? You are as always teasing when someone differs with your opinion. And that even while I supported your suggestions. Pls stop this behavior.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    I have officially given up :-) there a several ways to get somehow to what i want but all of them feel clunky and quite weird from a role-playing perspective. So i am back to the original build with some adjustments:

    STR 10
    DEX 14
    CON 13
    INT 10
    WIS 20
    CHA 16

    at lvl 12:

    Knowledge (Planes): 10
    Knowledge (Religion): 13
    Concentration: 15

    Progression to lvl12:

    class Feat Special
    Warlock (1) / Battle Caster / Eldritch Blast 1D6, Least invocation (Summon Swarm)
    Cleric (1) / / Turn Undead (5x)
    Cleric (2) / Quicken Spell /
    Cleric (3)
    Cleric (4)
    Eldritch Disciple (1) / Divine Metamagic / GoDP: (Wild Frenzy), least inv. (Baleful Utterance), exchange (Eldritch Glaive)
    Eldritch Disciple (2) / / Eldritch Blast 2D6
    Eldritch Disciple (3) / / Least invocation (See the Unseen)
    Eldritch Disciple (4) / Feat / Eldritch Blast 3D6; GoDP (Healing Blast)
    Eldritch Disciple (5) / / Least or lesser inv. (Flee the scene)
    Eldritch Disciple (6) / / Eldritch Blast 4D6
    Eldritch Disciple (7) / Feat / least or lesser inv. (Beshadowed Blast), GoDP (Protective Aura)

    I havent found any additional feats that really impressed me, but maybe you have some suggestion, otherwise i shall simply opt for extra turning. BTW: is Extra Turning retroactive?
    Last edited by St0nemender; 2022-01-13 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    I have officially given up :-) there a several ways to get somehow to what i want but all of them feel clunky and quite weird from a role-playing perspective. So i am back to the original build with some adjustments:

    STR 10
    DEX 14
    CON 13
    INT 10
    WIS 20
    CHA 16

    at lvl 12:

    Knowledge (Planes): 10
    Knowledge (Religion): 13
    Concentration: 15

    Progression to lvl12:

    class Feat Special
    Warlock (1) / Battle Caster / Eldritch Blast 1D6, Least invocation (Summon Swarm)
    Cleric (1) / / Turn Undead (5x)
    Cleric (2) / Quicken Spell /
    Cleric (3)
    Cleric (4)
    Eldritch Disciple (1) / Divine Metamagic / GoDP: (Wild Frenzy), least inv. (Baleful Utterance), exchange (Eldritch Glaive)
    Eldritch Disciple (2) / / Eldritch Blast 2D6
    Eldritch Disciple (3) / / Least invocation (See the Unseen)
    Eldritch Disciple (4) / Feat / Eldritch Blast 3D6; GoDP (Healing Blast)
    Eldritch Disciple (5) / / Least or lesser inv. (Flee the scene)
    Eldritch Disciple (6) / / Eldritch Blast 4D6
    Eldritch Disciple (7) / Feat / least or lesser inv. (Beshadowed Blast), GoDP (Protective Aura)

    I havent found any additional feats that really impressed me, but maybe you have some suggestion, otherwise i shall simply opt for extra turning. BTW: is Extra Turning retroactive?
    This looks solid enough. I'd wait a little longer to bring eldritch glaive in, since it doesn't really do anything until level 8. Extra Turning is good and useful; you have a lot of ways to exploit it. I don't know what you mean by "is it retroactive."

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    I have officially given up :-) there a several ways to get somehow to what i want but all of them feel clunky and quite weird from a role-playing perspective. So i am back to the original build with some adjustments:

    STR 10
    DEX 14
    CON 13
    INT 10
    WIS 20
    CHA 16

    at lvl 12:

    Knowledge (Planes): 10
    Knowledge (Religion): 13
    Concentration: 15

    Progression to lvl12:

    class Feat Special
    Warlock (1) / Battle Caster / Eldritch Blast 1D6, Least invocation (Summon Swarm)
    Cleric (1) / / Turn Undead (5x)
    Cleric (2) / Quicken Spell /
    Cleric (3)
    Cleric (4)
    Eldritch Disciple (1) / Divine Metamagic / GoDP: (Wild Frenzy), least inv. (Baleful Utterance), exchange (Eldritch Glaive)
    Eldritch Disciple (2) / / Eldritch Blast 2D6
    Eldritch Disciple (3) / / Least invocation (See the Unseen)
    Eldritch Disciple (4) / Feat / Eldritch Blast 3D6; GoDP (Healing Blast)
    Eldritch Disciple (5) / / Least or lesser inv. (Flee the scene)
    Eldritch Disciple (6) / / Eldritch Blast 4D6
    Eldritch Disciple (7) / Feat / least or lesser inv. (Beshadowed Blast), GoDP (Protective Aura)

    I havent found any additional feats that really impressed me, but maybe you have some suggestion, otherwise i shall simply opt for extra turning. BTW: is Extra Turning retroactive?
    Uh… what do you mean retroactive? It just gives 4 more turn attempts, I don’t see how that effects lower levels
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    This looks solid enough. I'd wait a little longer to bring eldritch glaive in, since it doesn't really do anything until level 8. Extra Turning is good and useful; you have a lot of ways to exploit it. I don't know what you mean by "is it retroactive."
    As far as i understood if, Extra turning gives you 4 additional attempts for each turning pool. So if i later decide to add a class that brings additional types of turning, does the feat count towards those or just towards those that were already present, when i took the feat?

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    As far as i understood if, Extra turning gives you 4 additional attempts for each turning pool. So if i later decide to add a class that brings additional types of turning, does the feat count towards those or just towards those that were already present, when i took the feat?
    Generally speaking classes don’t add turning when you have it, they just increase your turning level for turning checks. Rebuke Undead and Turn Undead stack in terms of uses if you can find a way to get both but if you have the feat you only pick one of those to add uses too
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    I would talk to your DM first about the Extra Turning. It's a waste of a feat if you never run into undead. For the last 5 years the parties in I play in we have never encountered undead.

    I suspect undead are a typical dungeon crawl beast. But since dungeon crawling is boring beyond all reason the chances of running into a lot of undead are minimal. And thus you'd be wasting a feat.

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I would talk to your DM first about the Extra Turning. It's a waste of a feat if you never run into undead. For the last 5 years the parties in I play in we have never encountered undead.

    I suspect undead are a typical dungeon crawl beast. But since dungeon crawling is boring beyond all reason the chances of running into a lot of undead are minimal. And thus you'd be wasting a feat.
    It gives extra divine metamagic and gifts of the divine patron.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Generally speaking classes don’t add turning when you have it, they just increase your turning level for turning checks. Rebuke Undead and Turn Undead stack in terms of uses if you can find a way to get both but if you have the feat you only pick one of those to add uses too
    So aside from the extra turn undead feat and the nightstick, there is no way to increase the number of turn attempts to burn with DMM?

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Can we burn another turns? Not only undead?
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    So aside from the extra turn undead feat and the nightstick, there is no way to increase the number of turn attempts to burn with DMM?
    More extra turning feats and more night sticks. You can also increase your charisma and take levels in classes that give rebuke undead instead of turn, having both pools helps out. Other than that, not much. Probably some obscure class feature that gives more.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    ... take levels in classes that give rebuke undead instead of turn, having both pools helps out.
    Are there actually classes that give a rebuke undead pool? Do you have an example? My preliminary web search didnt reveal much.

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    Default Re: So.. my first D&D 3.5 Eldritch Disciple build. Advice would be nice :-) 2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by St0nemender View Post
    Are there actually classes that give a rebuke undead pool? Do you have an example? My preliminary web search didnt reveal much.
    Dread necromancer and ur-priest are the usuals. Death master too, if your game allows Dragon material. If you use a compatible variant turning for cleric and then get regular turning off of something like sacred exorcist or soldier of light, that can also work. I think taking any of them on this build would be highly suboptimal, though, unless your intent is to replace all your cleric levels with ur-priest.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2022-01-19 at 03:29 AM.

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