Dragon Age : Origins - Remix at Ostagar [Spoilers]

[Cikomyr2]

Actually, they do. The visions the wardens receive from the archdemons when they start to muster forces are how they know a blight is coming. You don't need thousands of tainted for that though.

The ceremony takes one night at most. There's no good reason you need to administer it to your forces until you actually need to. There's no good reason you can't be vigilant without drinking a bunch of poison first. If you have time to muster troops and get them into position at all, you'll have time for the ceremony.

Except that the mortality rate of the Joining is in the realm of 50-70%

You cannot *have* a military standing force, have it trained and structured and organised, and then on the hour of need you have to cull 2/3 of them.

I can see the case why just having all recruit take the test so at least you never have to count on uncertain numbers.

[Grim Portent]

It also prevents the risk of someone who hasn't done the ritual finding out and blowing the whistle before you can stop them.

If every recruit got to hang out with the Warden's for years or even decades before taking the ritual then someone is going to find out about it and reveal it, not everyone who joins the Warden's does so for good reasons after all. By making it something that happens as soon as possible, with anyone who agrees to go far enough to learn about the ritual being killed if they chicken out at the last minute the only people who know are fully fledged Wardens who are now incapable of leaving by their corrupted nature, with potential spies being kept to a minimum.

If the Chantry, Templars and various kingdoms/nations were to find out about the blood magic and darkspawn taint involved they would likely be torn in half between zealots who want to destroy the Wardens out of fear and those who still see them as necessary, or even outright brave for their sacrifice. This in turn would lead to war, death, famines, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria, and the almost certain annhilation of the Wardens and thus the ultimate victory of the darkspawn.

Besides, you get ten to thirty years out of of most Wardens, so for the most part they only go insane at the point that a normal person is aging out of combat readiness anyway depending on when they joined. Sure the odd one has to go fight to the death in their thirties, but a lot are going to make it to their late forties or fifties, at which point a normal person would likely be retiring from a life as a soldier anyway.

[Cikomyr2]

Yhea. Basically, "anyone who knows about the Joining being bad stuff either is dead or has Joined", while not being airtight, is a good security blanket that has effectively worked for hundreds of years.

[Keltest]

Yhea. Basically, "anyone who knows about the Joining being bad stuff either is dead or has Joined", while not being airtight, is a good security blanket that has effectively worked for hundreds of years.

Besides which, the Wardens dont want people who will balk at the idea of fighting the Archdemon or sacrificing their own souls to end the blight, and theyre not even hugely fond of having people who wont do literally anything to end the blight if they can help it. You ask your force to take a poison that will kill 2/3 of them, your army is going to disintegrate on the spot, because they just arent conditioned to take those kinds of risks for the Wardens.

On top of which, you dont want the Wardens to have a military of non-Joined people sitting around. They dont need them, they cant fight the Darkspawn should they surface between blights without dying, and theyre far more likely to put their national politics in a place of importance than a Joined member would.

[LibraryOgre]

Edit: The wiki says at the time of the 5th blight there are over 1000 grey wardens stationed in the Anderfels, and hundreds in Orlais. There hadn't been a blight in nearly 500 years at that point. They're literally just killing their own troops in the thousands for no reason whatsoever.

People don't always do what makes sense.

[Cikomyr2]

I'd also make the following case:

if you have 50 soldiers that, over the years, you bring in groups of 2/3/4 in a joining ceremony where they have to drink or be killed, you will end up with 15 to 20 new Grey Warden.

IF you have 50 soldiers that you ask to drink something that has 60% chance of killing them, you will end up with 50 soldiers committing mutiny


Peer pressure is what keeps the Grey Warden going, and you need to peer-pressure the recruits when they are isolated

[Anteros]

Except that the mortality rate of the Joining is in the realm of 50-70%

You cannot *have* a military standing force, have it trained and structured and organised, and then on the hour of need you have to cull 2/3 of them.

I can see the case why just having all recruit take the test so at least you never have to count on uncertain numbers.

Big citation needed. As far as I'm aware, there are no official statistics on the fatality rate. I checked the wiki, and there's nothing except a few conversations of people discussing it. Most likely, you're massively overstating it. We've seen 3 joinings, and heard of one from Alistair. So 4 total. No more than one person ever died at any of them from the ritual itself. In Inquisition you have a joining with 6 participants and only one fails. Actual fatality estimates seem to be somewhere between 15-30% or so.

Not to mention that less people might die if you actually let them prepare for the ritual instead of springing it on them. At the very least, you could weed out those likely to refuse beforehand. If you did a joining with 50 candidates 4 at a time, you'd end up with 40 wardens on average. You could also just do them individually and not tell their comrades their fate until after the battle.

People don't always do what makes sense.

This is the most realistic answer so far.

[Keltest]

Big citation needed. As far as I'm aware, there are no official statistics on the fatality rate. I checked the wiki, and there's nothing except a few conversations of people discussing it. Most likely, you're massively overstating it. We've seen 3 joinings, and heard of one from Alistair. So 4 total. No more than one person ever died at any of them from the ritual itself. In Inquisition you have a joining with 6 participants and only one fails. Actual fatality estimates seem to be somewhere between 15-30% or so.

Not to mention that less people might die if you actually let them prepare for the ritual instead of springing it on them. At the very least, you could weed out those likely to refuse beforehand. If you did a joining with 50 candidates 4 at a time, you'd end up with 40 wardens on average. You could also just do them individually and not tell their comrades their fate until after the battle.



This is the most realistic answer so far.

Even if only 1 in 3 die, youre still going to have a mutiny on your hands when you ask them to drink.

[Anteros]

Even if only 1 in 3 die, youre still going to have a mutiny on your hands when you ask them to drink.

Why? What would make you think that? The candidates they already have don't mutiny despite outnumbering the wardens at the ceremony and being conscripted against their will. Willing recruits who have already been prepared to die for the cause are much less likely to do so. The types of people who willingly join this type of organization are most likely prepared to die anyway. If it's a huge concern though, you can just do the ceremony individually.

One in 3 was the high end estimate by the way. It's likely lower.

[Dienekes]

Why? What would make you think that? The candidates they already have don't mutiny despite outnumbering the wardens at the ceremony and being conscripted against their will. Willing recruits who have already been prepared to die for the cause are much less likely to do so. The types of people who willingly join this type of organization are most likely prepared to die anyway. If it's a huge concern though, you can just do the ceremony individually.

One in 3 was the high end estimate by the way. It's likely lower.

I know of several mutinies among the Romans over decimation, where 1 in 10 were slotted to die. Part of why the practice was disabanded probably.

Though, speaking of strange actions of societies that don't make sense when taken from a strictly utilitarian focus, the very practice of decimation. Roman legionaires were highly expensive and trained warriors of their time. Each one took up far more time and resources than a Grey Warden, who's training as far as I can tell is being picked by a recruiter.

And the Romans would kill one in every ten, often after losing a battle that killed even more. As a form of punishment. And this practice lasted for centuries.

So, no I don't really see a problem with the Grey Warden's current recruitment approach. There are more insane things in history.

[Anteros]

I know of several mutinies among the Romans over decimation, where 1 in 10 were slotted to die. Part of why the practice was disabanded probably.

Though, speaking of strange actions of societies that don't make sense when taken from a strictly utilitarian focus, the very practice of decimation. Roman legionaires were highly expensive and trained warriors of their time. Each one took up far more time and resources than a Grey Warden, who's training as far as I can tell is being picked by a recruiter.

And the Romans would kill one in every ten, often after losing a battle that killed even more. As a form of punishment. And this practice lasted for centuries.

So, no I don't really see a problem with the Grey Warden's current recruitment approach. There are more insane things in history.

Well, my point was that the policy was stupid, not that the stupidity is unrealistic. Unfortunately, real life is often very stupid. Suicide bomber squadrons and kamikaze pilots are real after all. History has no shortage of examples of corrupt or inept leadership brainwashing others to die for their cause.

[JadedDM]

If Grey Wardens didn't have to go through the joining, the vast majority of them would die from the taint while fighting darkspawn anyway. The joining saves more lives than it takes, really, as it makes one immune to the taint.*

(*Well, not immune, exactly, it slows it down so it kills you in a few decades instead of a few hours, but still.)

[Dienekes]

If Grey Wardens didn't have to go through the joining, the vast majority of them would die from the taint while fighting darkspawn anyway. The joining saves more lives than it takes, really, as it makes one immune to the taint.*

(*Well, not immune, exactly, it slows it down so it kills you in a few decades instead of a few hours, but still.)

I will admit, this reasoning would have hit harder if the game actually ever showed your companions get tainted.

[Anteros]

I will admit, this reasoning would have hit harder if the game actually ever showed your companions get tainted.

Or showed wardens ever actually fighting darkspawn. They mostly sit around in their base.

We see tons of people in all three games who aren't protected fighting against the Darkspawn and it's basically never an issue.
I think there's just that one guy at the start of origins that catches the taint before it's never mentioned again. They even let Cailan go into battle against them. It's not the certain death sentence that they portray it to be. Granted, most of this is probably just bad writing.

[Taevyr]

I will admit, this reasoning would have hit harder if the game actually ever showed your companions get tainted.

If I'm not mistaken, the original idea for DA:O was that companions would either go through the Joining as you progress through the game, or get tainted at some point. Can't recall exactly why it wasn't implemented, though. There's also that one origin

Spoiler

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Dalish, I think

that has its main companion return completely ghoulified at some point.

Additionally:

Spoiler: Spoilers: DA2

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I distinctly remember going "Oh Crap" when your sibling gets tainted in the Deep Roads on my first playthrough. Don't know what happens when you don't have Anders with you, but it certainly helped in giving a strong feeling of urgency

Also, slight segue back to the Roman decimation: it was a very rare practice, usually only used after instances of mass (say, an entire legion) desertion or insubordination. Mainly because forcing your men to kill each other with a 10% casualty rate, followed by substandard rations and forced marches to punish the "lucky", wasn't really helpful for morale & effectiveness unless the punished were already at rock bottom. More common was beatings/corporeal punishment for 1/10, withholding pay and such.

As for the Joining: Sure, you don't need to have an army of tainted people just in case an archdemon shows up, but the main use of the Joining besides that is the immunity to the taint, the ability to "sense" darkspawn to a degree (which would've been nice to see with the PC in DA:O, but oh well), and the dreams that warn'em when an archdemon does show up. The main one of these would be the taint immunity: while underused, it supposedly spreads real easy when fighting darkspawn, and the casualty rate of the Joining may actually be better than the casualty rate suffered over the years when using unjoined troops. Unfortunately, the game never really goes into it and just uses it for grimdark.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: DA:2

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If you dont have Anders in the party when your sibling gets tainted, they die. Full stop.

As for the Joining: Sure, you don't need to have an army of tainted people just in case an archdemon shows up, but the main use of the Joining besides that is the immunity to the taint, the ability to "sense" darkspawn to a degree (which would've been nice to see with the PC in DA:O, but oh well), and the dreams that warn'em when an archdemon does show up. The main one of these would be the taint immunity: while underused, it supposedly spreads real easy when fighting darkspawn, and the casualty rate of the Joining may actually be better than the casualty rate suffered over the years when using unjoined troops. Unfortunately, the game never really goes into it and just uses it for grimdark.

I mean we see it happen to other people all the time. Sir Wesley, Dog in Origins gets it if you arent human, your friend from the Dalish origin, the Legion of the Dead suffers a lot of attrition this way (theres a reason theyre considered an extended execution). Its just your companions.


Also, another reason to avoid Joining an entire army of hundreds of people at once is that the ritual requires darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood. The latter in particular is going to be difficult to transport enough for an army all at once safely.

[Divayth Fyr]

Big citation needed. As far as I'm aware, there are no official statistics on the fatality rate. I checked the wiki, and there's nothing except a few conversations of people discussing it. Most likely, you're massively overstating it. We've seen 3 joinings, and heard of one from Alistair. So 4 total. No more than one person ever died at any of them from the ritual itself. In Inquisition you have a joining with 6 participants and only one fails. Actual fatality estimates seem to be somewhere between 15-30% or so.

While we don't have any specific data, Avernus notes that most of the recruits die. He has more of an experience with it than we do, and I don't see why he'd overstate it in his private notes.

Why? What would make you think that? The candidates they already have don't mutiny despite outnumbering the wardens at the ceremony and being conscripted against their will. Willing recruits who have already been prepared to die for the cause are much less likely to do so. The types of people who willingly join this type of organization are most likely prepared to die anyway. If it's a huge concern though, you can just do the ceremony individually.

You know who was perfectly willing to join the organization and die for the cause? Jory. And look how he turned out the moment the details of the Joining came up...

If I'm not mistaken, the original idea for DA:O was that companions would either go through the Joining as you progress through the game, or get tainted at some point. Can't recall exactly why it wasn't implemented, though. There's also that one origin

Spoiler

Show

Dalish, I think

that has its main companion return completely ghoulified at some point.

IIRC, it boiled down to either being very unfun (when the player loses a companion they liked due to a - basically - die roll) or largely pointless (if you guaranteed the companions survive the Joining, basically like in Awakening, the token death of Mhairi aside).

[Dienekes]

IIRC, it boiled down to either being very unfun (when the player loses a companion they liked due to a - basically - die roll) or largely pointless (if you guaranteed the companions survive the Joining, basically like in Awakening, the token death of Mhairi aside).

That does seem a feature that would make far more gameplay sense in a game like XCOM or something instead of a more narrative/choice focused game like Dragon Age has been. Having random chance cut off the characters stories at possibly unsatisfying intervals would need to be very carefully dealt with. Like, imagine of Morrigan gets blighted by chance. Then you're forcing the player to cut out one of the endings before they had any chance to make that choice.

[Cikomyr2]

While we don't have any specific data, Avernus notes that most of the recruits die. He has more of an experience with it than we do, and I don't see why he'd overstate it in his private notes.


You know who was perfectly willing to join the organization and die for the cause? Jory. And look how he turned out the moment the details of the Joining came up...


IIRC, it boiled down to either being very unfun (when the player loses a companion they liked due to a - basically - die roll) or largely pointless (if you guaranteed the companions survive the Joining, basically like in Awakening, the token death of Mhairi aside).

I do plan to have players roll for Joining survival in the 1-shot this thread is aimed at designing. Dying players would be given Alistair or other cool characters to play

[Anteros]

I do plan to have players roll for Joining survival in the 1-shot this thread is aimed at designing. Dying players would be given Alistair or other cool characters to play

I would hate to design a character just to have the DM kill them with a random dice roll. I guess it's not as bad for a 1 shot, but still.

You know who was perfectly willing to join the organization and die for the cause? Jory. And look how he turned out the moment the details of the Joining came up...

Jory was also clearly a coward, which became apparent the first time he had to face danger. He starts whining as soon as he finds out you have to go to the wilds and doesn't stop until Duncan murders him. I guess that's what you get when you conscript anyone you can find at the last possible second though. He's exactly the kind of candidate that would have been weeded out if anyone spent any length of time with him prior to the joining.

Also, another reason to avoid Joining an entire army of hundreds of people at once is that the ritual requires darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood. The latter in particular is going to be difficult to transport enough for an army all at once safely.

I would imagine that you'd keep it at the same place you keep your troops. Which is what they already do, so nothing changes on that end. If you march out to face the darkspawn, then you start making wardens. You don't have to take it with you and take it the night of the battle.

[Cikomyr2]

I would hate to design a character just to have the DM kill them with a random dice roll. I guess it's not as bad for a 1 shot, but still.

I wouldn't kill them with a random dice roll. It'd probably be some sort of skill challenge, or as long as they don't process the drink (succeed on their check) they just take damage rolls. In SWADE player characters ("Wild cards") have plenty of spare hp (3) compared to NPCs (extras only get 1)

[GloatingSwine]

If it wasn't for a one shot I'd say get everyone to roll up a dozen characters, whittle them down with a meatgrinder, then when they've all got 2-3 left have them pick one who survives the Joining.

[Mosearold]

There are many new features that have been added to the game. There are now four playable characters, each with their own unique story line. You can now choose your gender and race. There are also new weapons and armor sets. The graphics have also been improved.

[Taevyr]

If it wasn't for a one shot I'd say get everyone to roll up a dozen characters, whittle them down with a meatgrinder, then when they've all got 2-3 left have them pick one who survives the Joining.

Sounds like a campaign premise I'd happily sign up for: just throw a bunch of rough character ideas at the wall, and develop whichever ones happen to survive. By the time it's done, you're essentially forged into a group through trial-by-fire.

[Cikomyr2]

There are many new features that have been added to the game. There are now four playable characters, each with their own unique story line. You can now choose your gender and race. There are also new weapons and armor sets. The graphics have also been improved.

I feel you are making a joke at someone' or something's expense but i cant figure it out