Dragon Age : Origins - Remix at Ostagar [Spoilers]

[Cikomyr2]

So I have been playing with this idea of using the The Battle of Ostagar sequence of events as the core of a 1-shot for Savage World rules meant to introduce rules and concepts. The point being we don't play the entire campaign, it's just to get one's toe wet.

I understood it meant turning this entire cornerstone event as a sandbox narrative. I familiarized myself with the various characters involved in the whole "betrayal" sequence of events, and was wondering what would push certain people to take different actions if left to the device of players trying to meddle in the canon order of events. (because off course players will try to interfere)

Initial setup: I think everyone in the Ferelden army expected a much smaller force to hit them than actually shows up.

The plan was to have a baiting force holding the stronghold of Ostagar, with a relief force that would come flanking the Darkspawn army once engaged.

Loghain: as soon as Loghain saw the size of the Darkspawn army, he decided he shouldn't commit (and potentially lose) his relief forces. He was adamant that Cailin shouldn't be located in the vulnerable position at the head of the baiting army, but Cailin outright overruled him.

Would Loghain still have turned tail had Cailin listened to his advice and remained with him? I think he would certainly have wanted to, but Cailin might have overruled him *there*, and then Loghain would have had the King subdued.

Loghain may have managed to convince Cailan to follow his advice if he had managed to politick the support of the Grey Warden in his argument. But he was paranoid of the Grey Warden as he sees them as potential intelropers and Orlais Trojan horse.

King Cailan: young pup still wet behind the ears, with eyes sparkling of stories about Grey Warden fighting beside kings and heroes.

But also, we know Cailan may have ambition regarding Orlais and the Empress Celene. Some argue Cailan would never do it as "he loved Anora with all his heart", but we never truly get a measure of Cailan's character. It is possible he was dreaming of the fallout of a victorious campaign against the Blight at the side of the Grey Warden, and believed it would make him popular and strong enough to marry up in the world?

Basically, I am speculating there might have been more to Cailan's obsession with glory on the battlefield than the assumed "youthful idealism", and there was a harder, colder calculation. Because if it was the 2nd option, there's no way he would allow himself to be convinced by anyone.

The Circle: we know Uldred leads their contingent, so it's obvious he is actively building political allies for his anti-Chantry/Templar cause.

SFDebris speculated that since Uldred proposed sending the magical signal (shot down in favor of the beacon plan), he was acting on Loghain's order to sabotage the signal and give cover to Loghain but that would assume Loghain planned all along to betray and let Cailin down.

Do you believe Loghain always intended to abandon the army at Ostagar, or made his mind when he saw the impossibility of a victory?

Chantry: not much to report here. They seem there mostly to act as political counterweight to the military presence of the Circle mages

See, the entire situation is so clear cut to read if you assume Loghain is a dirty traitor who is out to elevate himself. But.. Is it all there is to it?! Could the events have turned differently? Could a group of perky PCs/Wild Cards turn things around?

[LibraryOgre]

My understanding of the situation was that Loghain intended to abandon the Grey Wardens... that he'd have the Grey Wardens, and certain troublesome parts of the army, in the baiting force, and let them get ground up. Then Callain screwed it all up because he wanted to be in the glorious part of the battle with the Grey Wardens.

[Keltest]

My understanding of the situation was that Loghain intended to abandon the Grey Wardens... that he'd have the Grey Wardens, and certain troublesome parts of the army, in the baiting force, and let them get ground up. Then Callain screwed it all up because he wanted to be in the glorious part of the battle with the Grey Wardens.

I don't know that he was even specifically planning to get rid of the grey wardens there. Lighting was pretty definitely planning to salvage his flanking force from a battle plan he saw as unworkable, but I think everything beyond that was him playing it by ear. Certainly in his mind, he did not murder the king, he genuinely saw the Grey Wardens as being the ones to lead him to his doom, while Loghain gave him the opportunity to get out safely.

[Cikomyr2]

I don't know that he was even specifically planning to get rid of the grey wardens there. Lighting was pretty definitely planning to salvage his flanking force from a battle plan he saw as unworkable, but I think everything beyond that was him playing it by ear. Certainly in his mind, he did not murder the king, he genuinely saw the Grey Wardens as being the ones to lead him to his doom, while Loghain gave him the opportunity to get out safely.

So in that way.. The Grey Wardens are the ones responsible for Cailin's death

[Keltest]

So in that way.. The Grey Wardens are the ones responsible for Cailin's death

From Loghain's point of view, yes. The Wardens and Cailin made his grave, Loghain just watched them dig.

[Grim Portent]

I think that Loghain had the idea of getting rid of Cailan in the back of his mind for a while, but while he was a self deluded pragmatist, turning that idea into a plan was a step too far under normal circumstances.

Ostagar just represented an opportunity too tempting to pass up. Make it less tempting somehow and perhaps he wouldn't have turned traitor.

[Anteros]

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but this thread made me think of it. Does anyone else remember the way the game played up Duncan's death as some sort of tragedy? It felt so forced. I've known the guy for 5 minutes. Plus, I was playing a human noble, so from my point of view Duncan was an opportunist who basically blackmailed my dad into selling me into his military organization as he lay on the ground bleeding out. I get why Alistair was upset, and I'm sure he's a more sympathetic character if you play a different path, but I wasn't sad to see Duncan die at all.

[GloatingSwine]

Would Loghain still have turned tail had Cailin listened to his advice and remained with him? I think he would certainly have wanted to, but Cailin might have overruled him *there*, and then Loghain would have had the King subdued.

Loghain may have managed to convince Cailan to follow his advice if he had managed to politick the support of the Grey Warden in his argument. But he was paranoid of the Grey Warden as he sees them as potential intelropers and Orlais Trojan horse.

King Cailan: young pup still wet behind the ears, with eyes sparkling of stories about Grey Warden fighting beside kings and heroes.

But also, we know Cailan may have ambition regarding Orlais and the Empress Celene. Some argue Cailan would never do it as "he loved Anora with all his heart", but we never truly get a measure of Cailan's character. It is possible he was dreaming of the fallout of a victorious campaign against the Blight at the side of the Grey Warden, and believed it would make him popular and strong enough to marry up in the world?

Loghain was convinced that Cailan was going to do exactly that, get rid of Anora and marry the Empress of Orlais, undoing all the gains of Ferelden's independence and putting them all back under the Orlesian yoke. (Return to Ostagar suggests that he was correct).

So he would have done whatever was necessary to make sure Cailan did not survive the battle, as long as his doom fell at the hands of the enemy. A heroic and conveniently dead young king in whose memory his daughter could act as queen regent until a more biddable noble scion could be found.

He didn't care about the Grey Wardens really, he didn't actually believe this was a real Blight at the time, just one of the occasional minor incursions the Darkspawn make, he was putting his ideal of an independent Ferelden (and the power of his family) first.

[Keltest]

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but this thread made me think of it. Does anyone else remember the way the game played up Duncan's death as some sort of tragedy? It felt so forced. I've known the guy for 5 minutes. Plus, I was playing a human noble, so from my point of view Duncan was an opportunist who basically blackmailed my dad into selling me into his military organization as he lay on the ground bleeding out. I get why Alistair was upset, and I'm sure he's a more sympathetic character if you play a different path, but I wasn't sad to see Duncan die at all.

Duncan is more sympathetic in other origins, but most importantly he's also the veteran Grey Warden who has half a clue what is going on. With his death, all you have is another more or less fresh recruit like yourself who REALLY doesnt want to be in charge. As a veteran Darkspawn slayer, its also a good indication that the men are getting slaughtered down there.

[Cikomyr2]

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but this thread made me think of it. Does anyone else remember the way the game played up Duncan's death as some sort of tragedy? It felt so forced. I've known the guy for 5 minutes. Plus, I was playing a human noble, so from my point of view Duncan was an opportunist who basically blackmailed my dad into selling me into his military organization as he lay on the ground bleeding out. I get why Alistair was upset, and I'm sure he's a more sympathetic character if you play a different path, but I wasn't sad to see Duncan die at all.

I fully agree with you. I didn't cared about Duncan, and Bioware made a huge mistake in depicting the Warden's fade prison to be "hurray! We won against the Darkspawn, you are still a grey Warden and Duncan is alive"

My dwarven noble would have bought seeing Bhelen's head on a spike and never looked back

They should have had a foreshadowing conversation where you can determine your character's true dream. Maybe Wynn or another mage can tangent the fates of the Circle mages and ask you if you truly had control over your life, what you would wish to?

Then you could answer stuff like "my life as a grey Warden is the most fulfilling I've had, I wouldn't want anything different" which would trigger the default vision. But you could answer an Origin-specific reply (want to be back where I was) or maybe a romance-specific reply (I wish I could just run away with Leliana/Zhevran/Alistair/Morrigan).

So yes. Duncan's superdramatic death has the potential to fall flat in some playthrough.

Loghain was convinced that Cailan was going to do exactly that, get rid of Anora and marry the Empress of Orlais, undoing all the gains of Ferelden's independence and putting them all back under the Orlesian yoke. (Return to Ostagar suggests that he was correct).

Wait wait wait. Loghain's only fears at the time was that Cailan would accept Orlais's "military help", nothing more. He had no idea Cailan flirted with the Empress and with the idea to marry the Empress.

Loghain's fears over Orlais were also somewhat justified because the previous occupation did start as "help" being sent by Orlais

But until Return at Ostagar (if you bring Loghain) I do not think Loghain actually suspected Cailan may want to divorce Anora.

[Grim Portent]

Wait wait wait. Loghain's only fears at the time was that Cailan would accept Orlais's "military help", nothing more. He had no idea Cailan flirted with the Empress and with the idea to marry the Empress.

Loghain's fears over Orlais were also somewhat justified because the previous occupation did start as "help" being sent by Orlais

But until Return at Ostagar (if you bring Loghain) I do not think Loghain actually suspected Cailan may want to divorce Anora.

I think it's reasonable to assume he knew that some of the nobles like Arl Eamon were advising Cailan to divorce Anora*, and that he knew Cailan and the Empress were exchanging letters. He may not have had concrete knowledge they were considering marriage (or a 'permanent alliance') but all he would really need is the concern that it could happen. Rumours have a habit of spreading, and would have preyed on Loghain's mind.

*Likely a discrete matter some of the nobles dicussed together before or after giving Cailan unsolicited advice, which would then have gotten around the court.

[Cikomyr2]

I think it's reasonable to assume he knew that some of the nobles like Arl Eamon were advising Cailan to divorce Anora*, and that he knew Cailan and the Empress were exchanging letters. He may not have had concrete knowledge they were considering marriage (or a 'permanent alliance') but all he would really need is the concern that it could happen. Rumours have a habit of spreading, and would have preyed on Loghain's mind.

*Likely a discrete matter some of the nobles dicussed together before or after giving Cailan unsolicited advice, which would then have gotten around the court.

New Headcanon: Marjorie was acting as Celene's messenger

Or Marjorie was Loghain's agent in Orlais all along. If that's the case, then Leliana knew and joined a declared enemy of Loghain hoping to strike at Marjorie.

Something involving Marjorie.

[JadedDM]

He didn't care about the Grey Wardens really, he didn't actually believe this was a real Blight at the time, just one of the occasional minor incursions the Darkspawn make, he was putting his ideal of an independent Ferelden (and the power of his family) first.

I wouldn't say he didn't care about them. Remember, there were no Fereldan Grey Wardens at the time (Alistair and the PC are among the first to be recruited in about 200 years). This was because back in the Storm Age, the Wardens in Fereldan broke their neutrality oath and got involved in politics. So they were all exiled from the country as a consequence.

So when the Blight began in Fereldan, the Grey Wardens had no forces there at all. They had to marshal what they could in the next nearest nation, which just happened to be Orlais. So in other words, the vast bulk of the Grey Warden forces at Ostargar were Orlesian. So as far as Loghain was concerned, the Grey Wardens were just another branch of Orlesian forces, trying to trick their way into invading Fereldan again.

[Keltest]

I wouldn't say he didn't care about them. Remember, there were no Fereldan Grey Wardens at the time (Alistair and the PC are among the first to be recruited in about 200 years). This was because back in the Storm Age, the Wardens in Fereldan broke their neutrality oath and got involved in politics. So they were all exiled from the country as a consequence.

So when the Blight began in Fereldan, the Grey Wardens had no forces there at all. They had to marshal what they could in the next nearest nation, which just happened to be Orlais. So in other words, the vast bulk of the Grey Warden forces at Ostargar were Orlesian. So as far as Loghain was concerned, the Grey Wardens were just another branch of Orlesian forces, trying to trick their way into invading Fereldan again.

Duncan was ethnically Rivani and culturally a drifter from all over, and I think Riordan actually was Ferelden by birth, like Leliana, and just spent a lot of time in Orlais with the Wardens. One of the books also has an ash warrior Wardens in the group that the king met. There are still Ferelden Wardens, they just don't live in Ferelden after recruitment much.

[Anteros]

Duncan was ethnically Rivani and culturally a drifter from all over, and I think Riordan actually was Ferelden by birth, like Leliana, and just spent a lot of time in Orlais with the Wardens. One of the books also has an ash warrior Wardens in the group that the king met. There are still Ferelden Wardens, they just don't live in Ferelden after recruitment much.

That's not particularly relevant to the fact that Loghain would view them as a foreign military force though.

[Keltest]

That's not particularly relevant to the fact that Loghain would view them as a foreign military force though.

Well, actually it is, because Riordan is chosen to send over specifically to try and avoid that perception. Duncan and Cailian have conversations that imply the bulk of the Orlesian Wardens are still in Orlais. I think it's an open question whether he views the Wardens as an Orlesian organization as a whole, or just the reinforcements that Duncan wanted to summon.

[Anteros]

They're still a military organization sent over from another country. Obviously none of us are inside Loghain's head, but I would doubt someone as cynical as him would be swayed by such a shallow means. That type of thing would work on Cailan for sure though.

[Cikomyr2]

They're still a military organization sent over from another country. Obviously none of us are inside Loghain's head, but I would doubt someone as cynical as him would be swayed by such a shallow means. That type of thing would work on Cailan for sure though.

I do love putting Alistair on the throne is absolutely the Grey Warden remeddling in Ferelden politics and seizing once more.

The first time the Warden were allowed back in Ferelden , and they seize power.

BTW, I was thinking something. Arl Howe's action during the Cousland's backstory, how can they made sense if we don't assume Loghain was planning to drop Cailin like a bag of Darkspawn spit? Like, you can't just come in a Theyrn's house, kill him and claim his title and expect everyone to be fine with it.

Had there not been Caitlin's death, it would have been the scandal of the season.

[Keltest]

I do love putting Alistair on the throne is absolutely the Grey Warden remeddling in Ferelden politics and seizing once more.

The first time the Warden were allowed back in Ferelden , and they seize power.

BTW, I was thinking something. Arl Howe's action during the Cousland's backstory, how can they made sense if we don't assume Loghain was planning to drop Cailin like a bag of Darkspawn spit? Like, you can't just come in a Theyrn's house, kill him and claim his title and expect everyone to be fine with it.

Had there not been Caitlin's death, it would have been the scandal of the season.

Its at least implied that Alistair leaves the Wardens if you put him on the throne, and it was Eamon's idea, not yours. Alistair was against it.

[GloatingSwine]

Its at least implied that Alistair leaves the Wardens if you put him on the throne, and it was Eamon's idea, not yours. Alistair was against it.

Yeah, though being a Grey Warden isn't something you can really quit, given that you're absolutely definitely going to go horribly insane and mutate into a quasi-darkspawn....

[Anteros]

Really makes you wonder why they make everyone in the organization go through that ritual instead of just a few people.

I guess that wouldn't have the proper level of grimdark that Bioware was going for though.

[Cikomyr2]

Really makes you wonder why they make everyone in the organization go through that ritual instead of just a few people.

I guess that wouldn't have the proper level of grimdark that Bioware was going for though.

Either you can kill an Archdemon, or you can't.

There's no half Grey Warden

[Anteros]

Either you can kill an Archdemon, or you can't.

There's no half Grey Warden

But there easily could be. Just have the ceremony before you go to face the archdemon. There's only been 5 blights in 1500ish years. There's no good reason you need to poison your entire military organization just for them to sit around waiting on the possibility it might be useful one day. It's sheer stupidity.

It would be much more efficient to have a few true wardens scattered about so they can get the visions or whatever and prepare the others for when a blight is coming. You can ramp up warden production as needed. The process is almost instantaneous.

[Keltest]

But there easily could be. Just have the ceremony before you go to face the archdemon. There's only been 5 blights in 1500ish years. There's no good reason you need to poison your entire military organization just for them to sit around waiting on the possibility it might be useful one day. It's sheer stupidity.

It would be much more efficient to have a few true wardens scattered about so they can get the visions or whatever and prepare the others for when a blight is coming. You can ramp up warden production as needed. The process is almost instantaneous.

Thats how they operate, sort of. The Wardens are an army of sorts, but on their own they arent remotely capable of facing the Darkspawn head on. Theyre shock troops and commanders, not rank and file. When a blight happens, recruitment soars. The Archdemon dies, and then people arent so interested in the Wardens anymore. Thats why the Wardens use the treaties for troops to muster the armies of the nations to fight the Blight, and why the nations will give them the troops even though they really dont want to.

But if you make an army, and base your strategies around having this army, and then you fail to correctly predict how many will survive, then suddenly youre in a bad way, to say nothing of the fact that non-warden soldiers will die of the Blight, while Wardens will not.

[Anteros]

Maybe I'm incorrect about the size of the warden's forces generally, but given how frequently they show up in the games, as well as the repeated references to other branches in other countries, it appears to me that they have much more in the way of standing forces than necessary.

You only realistically need one person with the taint in each region. Two or three as failsafes probably. Anything extra is pointless unless there is a blight. Having entire chapters of wardens sitting around poisoned for no benefit is stupid. There's no reasonable argument for it. You can do all of the recruiting and training and other stuff without poisoning your forces, and then when they do need to go through the ceremony they'll already be trained and indoctrinated. Presumably much more useful than a handful of random conscripts. Especially since not poisoning your own troops will most likely only help recruitment and morale, and allow you to maintain a larger standing force.

Edit: The wiki says at the time of the 5th blight there are over 1000 grey wardens stationed in the Anderfels, and hundreds in Orlais. There hadn't been a blight in nearly 500 years at that point. They're literally just killing their own troops in the thousands for no reason whatsoever.

[Keltest]

Maybe I'm incorrect about the size of the warden's forces generally, but given how frequently they show up in the games, as well as the repeated references to other branches in other countries, it appears to me that they have much more in the way of standing forces than necessary.

You only realistically need one person with the taint in each region. Two or three as failsafes probably. Anything extra is pointless unless there is a blight. Having entire chapters of wardens sitting around poisoned for no benefit is stupid. There's no reasonable argument for it. You can do all of the recruiting and training and other stuff without poisoning your forces, and then when they do need to go through the ceremony they'll already be trained and indoctrinated. Presumably much more useful than a handful of random conscripts. Especially since not poisoning your own troops will most likely only help recruitment and morale, and allow you to maintain a larger standing force.

The drinking of darkspawn blood is a carefully guarded secret, but consider the Warden's oath. Specifically, "In peace, vigilance." Theyre ready to spring into action at a moment's notice if a blight shows up, or at least they want to be to the extent that its possible. Darkspawn arent polite enough to send them a warning months ahead of time so they can muster their forces, after all.

Besides which, Darkspawn still exist and surface even when there isnt a blight, so its not like theres no benefit to having veteran forces who are capable of safely fighting them.

[Anteros]

The drinking of darkspawn blood is a carefully guarded secret, but consider the Warden's oath. Specifically, "In peace, vigilance." Theyre ready to spring into action at a moment's notice if a blight shows up, or at least they want to be to the extent that its possible. Darkspawn arent polite enough to send them a warning months ahead of time so they can muster their forces, after all.

Actually, they do. The visions the wardens receive from the archdemons when they start to muster forces are how they know a blight is coming. You don't need thousands of tainted for that though.

The ceremony takes one night at most. There's no good reason you need to administer it to your forces until you actually need to. There's no good reason you can't be vigilant without drinking a bunch of poison first. If you have time to muster troops and get them into position at all, you'll have time for the ceremony.

Besides which, Darkspawn still exist and surface even when there isnt a blight, so its not like theres no benefit to having veteran forces who are capable of safely fighting them.

If they were actually doing so that would be a great point. As we see in the games though, the Dwarves are very much on their own while the Wardens sit in their surface fortresses playing politics.

[Keltest]

Actually, they do. The visions the wardens receive from the archdemons when they start to muster forces are how they know a blight is coming. You don't need thousands of tainted for that though.

The ceremony takes one night at most. There's no good reason you need to administer it to your forces until you actually need to. There's no good reason you can't be vigilant without drinking a bunch of poison first. If you have time to muster troops and get them into position at all, you'll have time for the ceremony.



If they were actually doing so that would be a great point. As we see in the games though, the Dwarves are very much on their own while the Wardens sit in their surface fortresses playing politics.

In Origins, the Wardens are forced to do that because Ferelden's interim leadership is deliberately keeping them out. When there isnt a blight, the Wardens very much do give military support to the Dwarves, which is why the Dwarves respect the Wardens so much. In 2 we also see a squad of wardens heading up into the Free Marches to deal with matters in the deep roads up there. And in Inquisition, the abnormality of the Wardens just squatting down in a fortress not doing anything is a plot point.

And again, the whole reason that the Wardens keep the Joining secret is because its such a desperate measure, it reeks of blood magic (which it is), and nobody would want to join at all if they knew about it (looking at you Sir Jory). But as we see from the Legion of the Dead, it also stops them from suffering a truly massive attrition rate from what would otherwise be a complete rout of a battle.

[Anteros]

I'm not sure why you're assuming that they can't still keep the details of the ceremony a secret if they don't give it to everyone. If anything it's less likely to leak since less people know about it.

[Kish]

Loghain didn't want help from the Orlesians. His own trauma from the Orlesian occupation caused him to consider the Orlesians worse than any other possible threat; when there was no way he could make that logical (because the alternative was the literal horrible death of all Feraldans, and of all life if no one stopped the Blight) he performed the mental contortion necessary to make it sound vaguely rational: "This isn't actually a Blight, because I say so." There was no way Cailan was going to agree with his "never never ask for or accept help from Orlesians" approach, because that approach was not sane, and that guaranteed Loghain would kill Cailan when he got the chance.

Originally it was really that simple and straightforward. Return to Ostagar added a lot of weird contradictory stuff (suddenly Cailan, who had chortled about how much he was looking forward to defeating the Blight, had known he wasn't going to survive? What?), and Dragon Age 3 added more, as Gaider, characteristically, grew increasingly frustrated that hardly anyone saw the moral ambiguity he believed he had written.