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Thread: Major image of a dense cloud
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2022-01-24, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I disagree that it depends whether or not that matters. The fog passes through the person. I don't think there is any argument on this point - if that is someone's argument, then OK, it would be a different discussion. I also disagree that it is not RAI - I pretty strongly believe that RAI is that if someone in any way touches a major image, they immediately know that it is an illusion. I'm probably more convinced that it is RAI than RAW.
I read it as:
"Physically interacting with a major image causes the creature to know its an illusion."
"But why, DM? It seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature, and I can move it around. They shouldn't be able to know immediately!"
"Um, because it's just an image, not a solid thing? So things can pass through it? This seems pretty clear to me, I don't know why you are arguing it. You want something you can touch, you need a 5th level creation spell."
And then we have hallucinatory terrain. It says the tactile elements of the terrain are not changed, so someone touching it might see through it. It then says that "if the difference isn't obvious by touch, a creature carefully examining the illusion can attempt an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to disbelieve it." I know that just because one spell says something it doesn't necessarily mean anything about another spell, but sometimes it helps me clear things up in my own mind. In this case, a higher level spell specifically calls out that if the difference isn't obvious by touch then the creature doesn't automatically know it's an illusion. Implies to me that the lower level spell that doesn't say that means that even if not obvious by touch, since the spell says physical interaction means it is revealed as an illusion, any physical interaction reveals it as an illusion.Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2022-01-24, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Are you asserting that you can touch magical darkness, or somehow tell that it is not "going through" you but an illusion of magical darkness is "going through" you?
Sorry, it sounds to me more like you're arguing video game RAW-without-thinking-about-it logic than the idea that the statement about interacting with something revealing it to be illusory because things pass through illusions actually having the fact that things pass through illusions be relevant. Of course an illusory wall that somebody sticks his hand through is "obviously" an illusion (though it kind-of begs the question why you can tell, if a man sticks his hand through a wall, whether it's the wall or the man that's an illusion), but that is "obvious" because you can't stick your hand through a wall that is real. If you go on to say, "Well, you stuck your hand into the magical darkness, so that is obviously an illusion because your hand went through it," that doesn't make much sense, unless you're asserting that a hand would not go through non-illusory magical darkness.
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2022-01-24, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Spells do what they say they do. Major image creates an image that is revealed to be illusory when physically interacted with. The intent of major image is that it is a spell that works when someone just looks, but if you get within range to touch, it ceases to fool anyone. RAW and RAI. I'm more confident that it is RAI than RAW, because that seems to be the clear design philosophy of the spell.
If one of my players wanted to burn a 3rd level major image instead of a 2nd level darkness spell, I would probably tell them that they couldn't, because "darkness" is absence of light, not an image. If they said they want to make it look like inkblot darkness with it instead of actually creating darkness by creating a big black box, which would have the same effect, I'd let them, and then if anyone physically interacted with the area, they'd realize it's an illusion.
It may seem that I am following video game logic from your pov (I disagree, but if that's your pov, so be it). From mine, you seem to be attempting to use real world physics to justify magic. I think that is a much greater sin when it comes to D&D than video game logic.Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2022-01-24, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
"...because things pass through it." Ignoring that part of the sentence changes the meaning entirely, and is ignoring part of the RAW. And, by that logic, it's physically interacted with by the air, which means it is automatically revealed to be illusory unless cast into the void of outer space.
False. It says nothing about "getting into range" to do anything.
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2022-01-24, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Major image of a dense cloud
In the case of fog, things don't pass through it, they either interact with the drops and get wet or the air flow in front of it pushes it out of the way. Usually the former. So when it's illusionary, it is instead passed through. Condition met, it should be revealed to be an illusion. Debates about if how real fog behaves are recognizable / identifiable aren't really relevant.
Personally I don't like the idea of "an illusion of darkness" under the phenomena. It's a special evocation created by magic, not a phenomena that can be mimicked by an illusion. Now, an illusion of a inky black object / cloud... that's fine and easy to adjudicate. Same as any other object or fog.Last edited by Tanarii; 2022-01-24 at 07:26 PM.
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2022-01-24, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-01-24, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-01-24, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-01-24, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
The spell in question is Major Image which:
"seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature appropriate to the thing depicted."
Walking through a loamy Wall of Stone or a Huge Sized Creature...I agree..obvious Illusion spell. Walking through a patch of fog that "seems completely real"...that is an Investigation check.
A Major Image that appears to be a Wall of Stone is likely going to inhibit foes from shooting range weapons at the image, nor are foes likely to charge, headlong, into a wall.
This particular illusion likely is going to waste a round of actions from the foes.
A Major Image of a Fog Cloud...isn't going to prevent foes from dashing headlong into the fog, the illusionary fog does not present the fiction of cover, so foes have no psychological incentive not to AoE the hell out of the area.
In short a Major Image of a Fog Cloud is a desperate move, to garner a 1st level spell effect with a 3rd level spell.
A DM is already 'ahead' in the tally of resource depletion when a Player elects to use Major Image to emulate a 1st level effect.
How and Why would a creature automatically know they are walking through 'fake' fog...when said illusion feels entirely real?
This strikes me as silly, and views the text and the circumstances in a non holistic fashion. The East German Judge gives a score of 2 out 5 in the DM Mixed Exercises category.🃏🤸Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2022-01-24 at 09:03 PM.
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2022-01-24, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Off hand, the fake fog can't make you wet like real fog could. It would feel "wet" to be in it, but it wouldn't accumulate on you or anything like that.
This is such a strange argument to me because if you're allowing that the spell isnt revealed as fake from interaction per the text because it would behave like that anyway, then it seems logical that you should also allow that interaction would reveal all the other ways it's inconsistent with a real fog cloud.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-01-24, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Major image of a dense cloud
That's not fair. You're nerfing Illusions overall. The DC should remain as the DC of the spell regardless of when and how one involves himself with it. You wouldn't be changing the DC for Wall of Fire or Prismatic Sphere depending on whether it's during combat or not when someone passes through them, would you?
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2022-01-24, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
The Investigation check is precisely the exact interaction that allows someone to discern the subtle differences between a Fog Cloud that seems completely real and completely real cloud of fog.
The Tule Fog of Central California is some of the densest fog on Earth...I've biked and walked through it countless times in the past.
I've never been drenched by the fog, and often discerned no moisture whatsoever on myself after passing through it.Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2022-01-24 at 10:48 PM.
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2022-01-25, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
This whole time I've been wondering about all the arguments of "but it wouldn't feel wet like fog would", and I've thought "fog doesn't feel wet, though". And I have no idea why, but for some reason, when I read that, I realized that oh, of course fog doesn't feel wet to me, because I live in a place that averages 130% humidity most of the time already.
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2022-01-25, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Ok, just for old times sake I dug through the old mag pile in the back closet & checked google for leads.
Dragon Magazine #66, October 1982, "Is it really real?" by Tom Armstrong.
Might give you some fresh (or stale) ammo for the fuss. Plus an 8 page cut & fold pocket dictionary of thieves cant.
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2022-01-25, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
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2022-01-25, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Physical interaction with the fog wouldn't automatically reveal it because one expects to be able to pass thru it (unlike if it were an illusion of a rock) and thus would require a passive investigation check to realise its a figment. If that fails, then the creature is none the wiser until it spends an action for an active investigation check.
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2022-01-25, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I’d be disinclined to do that, just because I think it’d make this use of major image overpowered from a play balance point of view.
Remember that this isn’t just a fog cloud, it’s much, much more
The casters party have presumably been made aware that this is an illusion.
As such the illusion of fog is translucent for them, but not for their foes. This means, absent other considerations, sight spells work for the party but not for their foes. It means advantage on attacks for the party and dissadvantage for their foes, the party can usually count on a chance to hide, and major image has a reasonable duration. This could be multiple encounters.
Now, this takes concentration, it’s slow to move, it’s a third level spell, etc. so it’s ok if the impact is significant, but if I can imagine a wide variety of different parties running into most of their encounters with a single tactic, it’s probably not tuned right.
EDIT Don’t get me wrong, I think the wording of the rules is definitely conditional on a non-existing condition, and as such doesn’t mandate that the illusion be revealed as soon as it is physically interacted with, but what does happen has to be balanced.Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2022-01-25 at 10:15 AM.
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2022-01-25, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Technically, even if one was told that a Major Image created fog phenomenon was an Illusion, an Adventurer would still need to spend their action to Investigate.
A generous DM might give the informed PC's, Advantage on the check, but that is subject to a DM's Discretion.
10 Minutes of a Roiling Fog, that requires the caster to use their Concentration,(or a 6th level spell slot), as well as requiring the rest of the Party to spend at least one Action to Investigate the Roiling Fog so they can see through it, (and may require more than one Investigate roll for a PC that fails the first attempt)......
.........does not seem to me to be generally more useful than Fireball or Upcast Fireball.
Could an Adventuring Party use a Major Image of Roiling Fog to setup 10 minutes of ambushes...yes...but the Snare spell + Conjure Bonefire can wreck a foe for much less cost. Same with Fog Cloud and a Bat Familiar with a PC with a Touch spell heavy loadout.Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2022-01-25 at 01:01 PM.
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2022-01-25, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I agree with you, but you're right, you won't get everyone in agreement here.
The way I see it, interacting with fog is very different than interacting with a wall. Fog already acts like an illusion because it's not solid and your hand goes through it. There's nothing there that immediately tells you, "that shouldn't happen!", so you would believe it's real.
I think it depends on the situation. I agree that 'During Combat' should not universally impose disadvantage (or a higher DC), but you certainly could be distracted in certain combat situations. Another situation could be if you jump through a wall a fire and you are soaking wet, then I would lower the DC or give you advantage.
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2022-01-25, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
The penalty for examining an illusion during combat is that you aren't spending your action on anything productive instead. I don't think there needs to be any more penalty than what the spell text says.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-01-25, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I'm primarily confused why the op didn't just use fog cloud. If they can cast Major Image they're probably a Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard. Fog cloud can be cast by Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer and Wizards. So the main reason they'd have one and not the other is if they're a bard or warlock. Bard I get but a Warlock casting Major Image? Those are expensive slots. Fog Cloud or Darkness has the same effect of obscurment they could want without any of the technicalities.
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2022-01-25, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Maybe I should attempt to ask a different question.
What is balanced?
Some people read the rules and interpret them to mean the illusion would not be automatically revealed by physical interaction with a fog/smoke cloud. Some read the rules and interpret them to mean that it would be revealed by physical interaction.
So be it
Presuming for the moment that we agree to subscribe (however reluctantly and temporarily) to the reading that the illusion is not automatically revealed, what do people feel is the most balanced ruling with regard to saves etc.?
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2022-01-25, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Question number one: How can a Major Image ever create thermal illusions (which the spell explicitly says it can) if no physical interaction with it is possible? Surely, anything that would allow you to feel a temperature would constitute a physical interaction.
Question number two: Let's turn it around. Suppose that the illusionist had created an image of a brick wall (without being seen casting it, and in a context where a brick wall wouldn't be out of place). And then suppose that another spellcaster cast a Fog Cloud, in an area that would overlap with the illusory wall. The Fog Cloud would, of course, pass through the illusory wall, but would the caster of the fog notice that?Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2022-01-25, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
For clarification, a major image of a fog cloud can be disbelieved by the caster’s allies. This results in obscurement of the party, but not of their opponents… who might not even think to try and disbelieve. “look a party of… we can’t see exactly but sounds like 4 adventurers surrounded by moving magical fog” probably isn’t grounds for incredulity in 5e. In the right circumstances it could be very strong, and in some campaigns, those circumstances might come up a lot.
Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2022-01-25 at 04:23 PM.
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2022-01-25, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Off hand, an illusion of a campfire would be warm without being touched while also not dealing damage from the heat.
A more interesting question might be, could illusionary fire stave off real frostbite?Last edited by Keltest; 2022-01-25 at 04:20 PM.
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2022-01-25, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Aspects to keep in mind: Blindsight, Blindsense, and True Sight all counter this tactic. As does Darkness.
Any creature with Detect Magic will be able to see that the magical fog is an Illusion spell..information that can lead a creature to conclude what is going on.
A CR 4 Night Hag can counter the tactic. This tactic is not an insurmountable advantage; a DM has moves, that can be made.😉Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2022-01-25 at 07:16 PM.
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2022-01-25, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
All of those methods counter invisibility as well, which is essentially what the fog obscurement does for the party. Everything is fun and games for the party until the dragon closes its eyes and begins hunting down the invisible people. Bonus points if the room fills with magical darkness which the enemy can see through using devil's sight or the like.
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2022-01-25, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I think this is the core of disagreement.
There's a group of people who view the pass through it part of the rule as something the creature must be able to recognize, notice, or otherwise perceive and not expect to qualify for the physical interaction to count.
And there's a group of people that see it as an explanation/description of why the physical interaction reveals the illusion. But no requirement for it to be recognized or perceived or expected. It's just what happens when physical interaction occurs, instead of the normal result of not passing right through.
It's undeniable that the water droplets in a fog do not pass right through a normal physical interaction, and something physically interacting with fog don't pass right through the water droplets. What's relevant to determining RAI is if you think that needs to be perceivable or recognizable for the physical interaction to 'count' as a physical interaction for purposes of the rule.Last edited by Tanarii; 2022-01-25 at 08:19 PM.
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2022-01-25, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: Major image of a dense cloud
Yes, this is the core of the disagreement
The thing is, as has been pointed out before, that if physical interaction is all thats needed, and not the realization that the physical interaction is not "working as intended" (i.e.: your hand shouldn't pass thru the rock), then MI is revealed as soon as its cast, because wind can pass thru it perfectly fine, thus no matter what image is made, it is revealed to everyone as an illusion instantly.
If a reading renders a spell/feature/rule unusable, then that reading is likely not the more useful one.
If we read it as the realization that something is wrong physically, then someone close to an illusionary rock wouldn't notice its a figment unless they take an action to investigate it. If there were strong winds coming from the direction of the rock, as it would happen, since the rock wouldn't block it, the creature may be reasonably inclined to investigate the rock, and if it touches it, poof, the illusion is revealed.
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2022-01-25, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Major image of a dense cloud
I am not sure why major image instead of fog cloud.
My inclination is less towards this being allowed without a physical interaction problem because fog cloud provides this tool already. That being said I don't find particular issue with it. I would probably allow an investigation check no action if within the effect, either way.My sig is something witty.
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