Some questions about Gestalting

[YellowJohn]

Some people in my group are toying with the idea of running a gestalt game, which is enough excuse for me to start theory crafting characters. And it turns out I have some questions...
So
When building a Gestalt character, you have two 'build paths' - Path A, which can include Any class, and Path B, which may include Base classes only (see what I did there?)

1) If I take a race with Racial Hit Dice/Level Adjustment, does it matter which side takes the hit?
2) I know that most tables ignore multiclass penalties at the best of times, but are they well and truly dead in gestalt?
3) How independent do the two Paths have to be? Example: if I am a Cleric on the A side and Wizard on the B side, can I take levels in Dweomerkeeper (requires Arcane & Divine casting but progresses only one) once I can meet the skill requirements? Or do I need to dip an Arcane Caster Level on the A side?

I'm sure I'll have more questions once I start brewing, but that's enough to get me started. Thanks in Anticipation :-)

[Eldan]

I mean, the answer to that is "no official rules, ask your DM". There's a kind of online consensus about how most people handle this, but the full extent of the official Gestalt rules is a longish paragraph in a book of "here's some ideas for things you might try". It doesn't go into details on stuff like that.

[YellowJohn]

I figured as much, which is why I'm asking in my own thread instead of in the Simple RAW.

I assumed there would be some kind of online consensus, or if not I could at least get the opinion of people who have played some gestalt before in lieu of playtesting.

[gijoemike]

The following is my opinion only. This is not a web consensus.


1. split them evenly across both sides.
2. how would you possibly enforce it? The primary "side" would go into different class/prestige class and the base "side" would outstrip the primary in every build in existence.
3. The whole "side" concept is just a construct to better make sense of it all. There is no actual division of the 2 class sets. wizard 1/ cleric 1(gestalt divider) rogue 2 is the exact same as a rogue 2 (gestalt divider) wizard 1/cleric 1. If arcane and divine casting exist ANYWHERE in the list, you are covered.

[Brackenlord]

As the others have pointed, the rules for gestalt characters don't really help with the corner cases, it's left to DM adjudication.

My group's guidelines:

1. Fractional Base Bonuses (UA pg. 73) in effect, avoids complication when multiclassing;

2. I don't have experience with XP penalties, besides trying to avoid as an exercise in creativity and system mastery. Milestone XP or lifetime gold acquired as experience tracker has been the default for me for a long while;

3. LA is not allowed unless a racial class progression is agreed upon or provided, unless it's waved for the entire party at creation. Gestalt characters are strong and complex enough as is;

4. Only one prestige class at a time, theurges are allowed;

5. Finally, classes can't change columns. Example:

A	B
• Wizard 1	• Fighter 1
• Wizard 2	• Human Paragon 1
• Fighter 2	• Human Paragon 2
Not allowed

This helps with build formatting, you can simply combine two build paths without class overlap into a gestalt. It also allows you to track multiclass XP penalty at each side separately, if so desired.

[Eldan]

My personal guidelines:

I like for people to qualify for dual-prestige classes like Dweomerkeeper on one side. Or at least not abuse Gestalt for early entry, Gestalt is strong enough without that.

RHD and LA can go on one side only. In most cases, races with LA are weak enough already.

[Rebel7284]

When building a Gestalt character, you have two 'build paths' - Path A, which can include Any class, and Path B, which may include Base classes only (see what I did there?)

That is a good convention for writing gestalt down, but it leads to confusion. There aren't any paths, at each level you gain a single level, however the abilities you gain are an amalgamation of two classes (either two base classes or one base and one prestige).

1) If I take a race with Racial Hit Dice/Level Adjustment, does it matter which side takes the hit?

This is not addressed in the gestalt rules at all.
- LA is a separate concept from levels so technically LA should apply in full (both sides if you will), however, many DMs allow you to take a level of LA and a class at the same level, essentially gestalting LA. This is more powerful of course. Ask if your DM is interested in using this houserule.
- Gestalt was created to combine two class levels, however racial HD are REALLY close to class levels, so I don't see any issues gestalting racial HD just like class levels. However, since this is never explicitly defined, you may still need to ask your DM.
- If your DM approves gestalting both racial HD and LA, they will also need to specify the order. For example, do you need to gestalt the LA and racial HD together before taking any class levels once you run out of HD or LA? Do you have to take virtual LA levels before gestalting HD? Do you chose the order of LA vs. HD?

For example, you are trying to build a Ferral Anthropomorphic Whale Fighter (3HD 1LA)
For example:

A.
Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid HD+LA
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter

OR

B.
Level 1: LA + Fighter
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 4: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter

OR

C.
Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid HD+Fighter
Level 4: LA + Fighter

Most people with permissive DMs assume B. to have more levels with class features and get LA out of the way first but again, it's not actually defined.

2) I know that most tables ignore multiclass penalties at the best of times, but are they well and truly dead in gestalt?

Yes, they are dead. The rules aren't really defined for trying to penalize Wizard+Rogue vs. Wizard+Cleric anyway.

3) How independent do the two Paths have to be? Example: if I am a Cleric on the A side and Wizard on the B side, can I take levels in Dweomerkeeper (requires Arcane & Divine casting but progresses only one) once I can meet the skill requirements? Or do I need to dip an Arcane Caster Level on the A side?

There are no sides. If you meet the requirements, you meet the requirements and can enter the class

[Rebel7284]

As the others have pointed, the rules for gestalt characters don't really help with the corner cases, it's left to DM adjudication.

My group's guidelines:
<snip>

5. Finally, classes can't change columns. Example:

A	B
• Wizard 1	• Fighter 1
• Wizard 2	• Human Paragon 1
• Fighter 2	• Human Paragon 2
Not allowed

This helps with build formatting, you can simply combine two build paths without class overlap into a gestalt. It also allows you to track multiclass XP penalty at each side separately, if so desired.

While you specify that this is your houserule, I am confused about why it was implemented since it seems against the spirit of gestalt which does not have a "side". Is pretty formatting the problem you are trying to solve?

[Biggus]

While you specify that this is your houserule, I am confused about why it was implemented since it seems against the spirit of gestalt which does not have a "side".

Where are you getting that interpretation from? I've always seen them as having two sides for mechanical purposes; the prestige class section refers to "class slots" for example.

[Brackenlord]

While you specify that this is your houserule, I am confused about why it was implemented since it seems against the spirit of gestalt which does not have a "side". Is pretty formatting the problem you are trying to solve?

It was a way of explaining to the less rules savvy members of our group how to build a multiclass gestalt and it stuck as a hard rule.

[Ramza00]

Remember Racial HD and Level Adjustments are add on not part of the original d20 and 3.0 rules developed in the late 90s and released to the public in 2000.

Likewise Gestalt also came later as a second add on.

————

One needs to be thinking about what the level adjustment is doing. If it is giving abilities similar to an attacking spell, one should price it similar to what a caster can do. For example a HD08 wizard can cast enervation about 3 times a day if it’s generalist wizard, 4 times a day if he is a crafter (Headband of Int+4, 20 starting Int, +2 ability from HD04 and HD08), 5 times a day if he is a specialist and a crafter, and 6 times a day if he is a focused specialist crafter. Thus a racial hit dice that gives enervation 3 to 5 times a day and no other high level spells make sense for a monster that lacks spellcasting and is 8 HD+LA. But it does not make sense if the total ECL is +6. The DM should figure out alternative abilities.

Likewise with ability modifiers. Getting stats that are over a 20 as the starting stats, starts to break down and be free damage, free spell focuses, free initiative, etc. A 22 in Int or Str is somewhere like an equivalent 1 or 2 levels of ability depending on the build. This is because a monster ac goes up by 1 every CR, the attack bonus usually goes up by 2, the hit points goes up by 10 or more with later levels, and the monster damage per full attack goes up by 2 to 10 depending on levels. It is pathfinder but 3.0 and 3.5 d20 has similar numbers to this table.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/ru...r-advancement/

Likewise outsider and dragon hit dice are better than ranger or rogue hit dice, also better than monk hit dice.

What I am saying is a DM has to eyeball is the PC close to balance with the monsters they are throwing out as DM, and likewise the party. Often 1 LA does not matter but anything with 2 LA or a mixture of LA and Hit Dice the DM has to be asking what is this combination of features for when you build a pc or monster, the sum of everything is more than the individual parts. You may be Min maxing without realising it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Isn't the point of multi-class prestige classes unnecessary with gestalt rules? Like, you wouldn't use the Mystic Theurge prestige class, you'd just take Wizard and Cleric at the same time?

[GeoffWatson]

Isn't the point of multi-class prestige classes unnecessary with gestalt rules? Like, you wouldn't use the Mystic Theurge prestige class, you'd just take Wizard and Cleric at the same time?

But they could take Mystic Theurge AND another caster PrC for even more power. That's the whole point of the 3rd edition boards here - making the most powerful characters.

[Biggus]

That's the whole point of the 3rd edition boards here - making the most powerful characters.

Speak for yourself, I use these boards for lots of things but rarely if ever that.

[Eldan]

But they could take Mystic Theurge AND another caster PrC for even more power. That's the whole point of the 3rd edition boards here - making the most powerful characters.

I don't think so. Theoretical optimization is fun, but I consider it an entirely different game from actually playing 3.5.

I mean, we have conclusively established who the most powerful characters are more than a decade ago. The rest is just playing around with weird builds because it's fun. No one is going to play these characters.

I still participate in fluff discussions and play 3.5. That's a separate thing.

[Gnaeus]

Even players who like to min-max may shy away from language like "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant." That's about as close as you can get to a rule without being RAW. There's certainly grey area in determining exactly what counts as a class combination, but in many cases it's pretty clear, and I wouldn't assume a gestalt game was ok with it any more than I would assume any other rule where strict RAW clearly conflicts with designer intent.

[KillianHawkeye]

But they could take Mystic Theurge AND another caster PrC for even more power.

The point was you're not supposed to do that, as the previous post mentioned.

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant." That's about as close as you can get to a rule without being RAW. There's certainly grey area in determining exactly what counts as a class combination, but in many cases it's pretty clear, and I wouldn't assume a gestalt game was ok with it any more than I would assume any other rule where strict RAW clearly conflicts with designer intent.

[martixy]

I swear I can make a bingo out of gestalt questions and misconceptions.

The top among which will be: There are no sides.

I am honestly flabbergasted why this is such a widespread confusion.

A gestalted character is one that takes the best features of 2 chosen classes each level.

↑↑↑ Nowhere in this do we conceptually come even close to the idea of "sides".