Reverse Gravity Help

[nickl_2000]

The reverse gravity spell confuses me some, so I'm looking to the playgrounders for help.

(full quote since it's in the basic rules)

This spell reverses gravity in a 50-foot-radius, 100- foot high cylinder centered on a point within range. All creatures and objects that aren't somehow anchored to the ground in the area fall upward and reach the top of the area when you cast this spell. A creature can make a Dexterity saving throw to grab onto a fixed object it can reach, thus avoiding the fall.

If some solid object (such as a ceiling) is encountered in this fall, falling objects and creatures strike it just as they would during a normal downward fall. If an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, for the duration.

At the end of the duration, affected objects and creatures fall back down.

If they make the initial dex save and have a fixed object they are completely unaffected by the spell, correct? Or do they need to keep a free hand to hold onto the object to avoid falling into the sky in future rounds? Can they walk around unaffected by the spell after the first round?


Also, I assume it is poor wording, but it says "At the end of the duration, affected objects and creatures fall back down." So if I drop concentration do they stay in the air or fall? Logic would say fall, but RAW doesn't appear to..


What happens when you cast it on water or a liquid like lava? Can you have it go below the surface and pull the liquid into the air possibly having someone end up inside lava for the duration of the spell?


If someone shoots an arrow into a space where gravity is reversed, does the arrow change trajectory and fly in the opposite direction?

[stoutstien]

The reverse gravity spell confuses me some, so I'm looking to the playgrounders for help.

(full quote since it's in the basic rules)




If they make the initial dex save and have a fixed object they are completely unaffected by the spell, correct? Or do they need to keep a free hand to hold onto the object to avoid falling into the sky in future rounds? Can they walk around unaffected by the spell after the first round?


Also, I assume it is poor wording, but it says "At the end of the duration, affected objects and creatures fall back down." So if I drop concentration do they stay in the air or fall? Logic would say fall, but RAW doesn't appear to..


What happens when you cast it on water or a liquid like lava? Can you have it go below the surface and pull the liquid into the air possibly having someone end up inside lava for the duration of the spell?


If someone shoots an arrow into a space where gravity is reversed, does the arrow change trajectory and fly in the opposite direction?

They need to maintain a grip to not fall any time the spell is active. The spell is reverse gravity so up is down.

duration = concentration. It's literally in the duration description of the spell. It's UP to X.

As far as environment goes ask your DM lol.

[CapnWildefyr]

If they make the initial dex save and have a fixed object they are completely unaffected by the spell, correct? Or do they need to keep a free hand to hold onto the object to avoid falling into the sky in future rounds? Can they walk around unaffected by the spell after the first round?

They either hold onto to something the whole duration, or fall upwards. It is a concentration spell, therefore continuous while concentrating up to 1 minute. If they can't continue to hold on, slippery grasp, etc, they slip off and fall, like normal (except for falling upwards).

Also, I assume it is poor wording, but it says "At the end of the duration, affected objects and creatures fall back down." So if I drop concentration do they stay in the air or fall? Logic would say fall, but RAW doesn't appear to..

No, no concentration, no spell, they fall down.

What happens when you cast it on water or a liquid like lava? Can you have it go below the surface and pull the liquid into the air possibly having someone end up inside lava for the duration of the spell?

I would say no. The description doesn't say it takes a chunk out of the ground; it seems to be a surface effect.

If someone shoots an arrow into a space where gravity is reversed, does the arrow change trajectory and fly in the opposite direction?

It changes direction only in that during its transit through the AOE, gravity is reversed so it will probably be thrown off course. It will rise instead of drop through the AOE. DM call for hitting things in the AOE. Disadvantage, maybe?

Maybe we could say "fall in gravity normal" or "fall in gravity reversed" directions, but up and down are easy enough.

[nickl_2000]

They need to maintain a grip to not fall any time the spell is active. The spell is reverse gravity so up is down.

duration = concentration. It's literally in the duration description of the spell. It's UP to X.

As far as environment goes ask your DM lol.

Oh ya, duh... That does make sense. Apparently my brain wasn't completely working on this one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The reverse gravity spell confuses me some, so I'm looking to the playgrounders for help.
If they make the initial dex save and have a fixed object they are completely unaffected by the spell, correct? Or do they need to keep a free hand to hold onto the object to avoid falling into the sky in future rounds? Can they walk around unaffected by the spell after the first round?

No they manage to grab onto something, if there are other things on the ground they could possibly climb there way out of the area.

Also, I assume it is poor wording, but it says "At the end of the duration, affected objects and creatures fall back down." So if I drop concentration do they stay in the air or fall? Logic would say fall, but RAW doesn't appear to..

No they fall back down, the duration is concentration up to 1 minute. If you stop concentration the duration is over.

What happens when you cast it on water or a liquid like lava?

You could dive beneath to avoid the effects, probably a bad idea with lava.

Can you have it go below the surface and pull the liquid into the air possibly having someone end up inside lava for the duration of the spell?

Usually one would restrict spells to being cast on a surface or the ground see black tentacles for an example. Reverse Gravity has no such restriction so yes you could use it to create a massive pillar of water or lava. I wouldn't allow that but only so I wouldn't have to figure out what happens when a massive pillar of water falls down.

If someone shoots an arrow into a space where gravity is reversed, does the arrow change trajectory and fly in the opposite direction?

Arrows are propelled foward by the snapping string of the bow not gravity. Gravity pulls the arrow down over time, so instead of arrow drop you'd get a lift in a reverse gravity area.

[Chronos]

The rules don't say anything about shooting through a Reverse Gravity area, but since arrows would be reacting differently than normal, it'd probably be reasonable to impose disadvantage.

And you could potentially trap someone in a column of liquid, but that would depend on their initial positioning: They'd have to have already been in, on, or above the liquid. If they were in or on lava, or in water, they were presumably already suffering the negative consequences of that, and if they were above, that probably means they're flying, so they could leave the reverse-gravity area. It'd only be a significant problem for someone swimming or in a boat on the surface of water.

[stoutstien]

Oh ya, duh... That does make sense. Apparently my brain wasn't completely working on this one.

No bother. During the session last night I forgot what die size sneak attack uses.

[JackPhoenix]

The point within range doesn't need to be on a ground. However, "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction."

Considering lava has about the same density as rock, it should propably provide total cover and thus prevent you from both putting the point of origin inside its volume and the effect from spreading outside the point of origin.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The point within range doesn't need to be on a ground. However, "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction."

Considering lava has about the same density as rock, it should propably provide total cover and thus prevent you from both putting the point of origin inside its volume and the effect from spreading outside the point of origin.

I think you mean opaqueness. You can’t see though lava but things can sink it it.

[stoutstien]

I think you mean opaqueness. You can’t see though lava but things can sink it it.

No they are correct. Lava tends to have quite high density being only slightly lower than the surrounding rocks. You could walk on lava if you can survive the heat assuming it's stationary or if it's flowing it could pull you in much like a rip tide/fast river would but you can't sink.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No they are correct. Lava tends to have quite high density being only slightly lower than the surrounding rocks. You could walk on lava if you can survive the heat assuming it's stationary or if it's flowing it could pull you in much like a rip tide/fast river would but you can't sink.

And what does that have to do with line of sight? The spell has to be targeted at point you can see and lava even if you somehow removed the glow wouldn’t be transparent. It’d be the color of the rock it was made from.
Something denser the rock would sink in lava because it’s viscous. I said “something” not someone.
Though an iron golem would sink.

Its density is irrelevant, only it’s transparency. If the water was dark or murky you couldn’t beneath the surface either.
If you had an invisible wall of iron you could target reverse gravity past the wall.

[stoutstien]

And what does that have to do with line of sight? The spell has to be targeted at point you can see and lava even if you somehow removed the glow wouldn’t be transparent. It’d be the color of the rock it was made from.
Something denser the rock would sink in lava because it’s viscous. I said “something” not someone.
Though an iron golem would sink.

Its density is irrelevant, only it’s transparency. If the water was dark or murky you couldn’t beneath the surface either.
If you had an invisible wall of iron you could target reverse gravity past the wall.

The rules don't support that ruling one way or the other. It's DM fiat which spells have to maintain line of effect to pass through cover when sight isn't a factor.

[JackPhoenix]

And what does that have to do with line of sight? The spell has to be targeted at point you can see and lava even if you somehow removed the glow wouldn’t be transparent. It’d be the color of the rock it was made from.

Reverse Gravity does not need you to see the point of origin.

If you had an invisible wall of iron you could target reverse gravity past the wall.

Visibility doesn't matter, only if there's a full-cover obstacle. Which an iron wall is.

[deljzc]

Per RAW:

A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.

I would rule you can't target a point inside the lava (thus causing the lava to fall).

As far as water, it's really up to the DM how far into the water you can see so you can create the "point of origin" inside the water. Also RAW:

Cylinder
A cylinder's point of origin is the center of a circle of a particular radius, as given in the spell description. The circle must either be on the ground or at the height of the spell effect. The energy in a cylinder expands in straight lines from the point of origin to the perimeter of the circle, forming the base of the cylinder. The spell's effect then shoots up from the base or down from the top, to a distance equal to the height of the cylinder.

A cylinder's point of origin is included in the cylinder's area of effect.

Now, I'm not 100% convinced based on the targeting language, cylinder language, and reverse gravity language, the effect HAS to be targeted at the bottom of the cylinder only. If you target a ceiling, does the effect go up or down?

If you target a ceiling above water or lava, the effect could extend greatly into the liquid and cause some very interesting effects for the DM to fully decide.

I agree, once again, the description could have been written much better to clarify some of this stuff.

[Solusek]

I've seen several mentions of reverse gravity on here. How have you had it play out in battle? I've read it a numbers of times and been unsure how well it would work

I took it as the only 7th level spell on a sorcerer I was playing a couple years ago. It was super underwhelming for the tier of play you get it.

It's useless against flying enemies, of course.

It's also of dubious use if the enemies have better ranged attack options than the party does, even if they don't fly. Congratulations all the enemies are now floating in the air where the party fighter and barbarian and rogue can't hit them with their magic swords. Sure you could always drop concentration next round and let them fall for the 10d6 damage (assuming it isn't a room with a low ceiling, in which case it will be a lot less damage than that), but that low of damage with a save for nothing is a pretty **** use of a 7th level spell slot, I think.

It was also hard to target properly without wrecking just as much havoc on the party as it potentially could to enemies. Most times I deduced it would be wrecking more havoc on the party than it did to our opponents.

In theory there are great situations to use Reverse Gravity. If your character wins initiative and can act first before monsters and party members get tangled up in melee with each other, and those enemies don't fly, and they don't have good ranged options. But as a 13th+ level party I never encountered such a situation. Eventually I switched it out for something else (Mass Suggestion I think, yes a lower level spell) after going months never finding a good time to cast it.

[Tanarii]

As far as water, it's really up to the DM how far into the water you can see so you can create the "point of origin" inside the water.

Sight is irrelevant to the clear path rule. The question is if water is an obstruction that causes total cover.

Now, I'm not 100% convinced based on the targeting language, cylinder language, and reverse gravity language, the effect HAS to be targeted at the bottom of the cylinder only. If you target a ceiling, does the effect go up or down?

Either way, doesn't matter because ...

If you target a ceiling above water or lava, the effect could extend greatly into the liquid and cause some very interesting effects for the DM to fully decide.

The clear path rule also applies to AOEs, from the point of origin. So the effect definitely doesn't extend into the ground or lava. Water would depend on how your DM rules it.

(Edit: To be clear, it does matter if you target a solid ceiling, since it can't go up due to the clear path rule. But targeting the floor and going up vs the ceiling and going down doesn't matter for purposes of the lava/water question, again due to the clear path rule.)

[Chronos]

If your origin point is the top of the cylinder and it goes down into lava, the clear path rule might mean it only affects the very topmost layer of the lava... at first. And then that topmost layer falls away, exposing more below it, and so on until you get the full height of the spell.

[Tanarii]

If your origin point is the top of the cylinder and it goes down into lava, the clear path rule might mean it only affects the very topmost layer of the lava... at first. And then that topmost layer falls away, exposing more below it, and so on until you get the full height of the spell.

Depends if the clear path rule allows it to affect the blocking cover or not.

But if that works, it should work on dirt / soil that's not very compacted or held in place sufficiently by plants as well. Would make for one heck of field tilling or aeration method.

[CapnWildefyr]

I took it as the only 7th level spell on a sorcerer I was playing a couple years ago. It was super underwhelming for the tier of play you get it.

It's useless against flying enemies, of course.

Well, not entirely useless. Mounted fliers might be toast since they will get yanked UP out of their saddles. Others might need to spend the whole round re-orienting themselves - just because you're flying doesn't mean you are ignoring gravity, something else is providing lift. Even someone using levitate or fly might have an (admittedly minor) effect, like your pockets emptying out, you robes falling over your head, etc. OK, it's not 10d8 damage, but it's something. The DM should (yes, interpretation here) have flying creatures have to make some kind of check, or just spend their round re-acclimating to the new normal.

It's also of dubious use if the enemies have better ranged attack options than the party does, even if they don't fly. Congratulations all the enemies are now floating in the air where the party fighter and barbarian and rogue can't hit them with their magic swords. Sure you could always drop concentration next round and let them fall for the 10d6 damage (assuming it isn't a room with a low ceiling, in which case it will be a lot less damage than that), but that low of damage with a save for nothing is a pretty **** use of a 7th level spell slot, I think.

Did your DM forget they when they fall they land prone? Unless you're fighting tabaxi. Should get to wallop them at advantage for a round. One of the better uses is to smack people against the ceiling then drop the spell, although yes that works best when you're in a room with a 40' + ceiling.

It was also hard to target properly without wrecking just as much havoc on the party as it potentially could to enemies. Most times I deduced it would be wrecking more havoc on the party than it did to our opponents.

In theory there are great situations to use Reverse Gravity. If your character wins initiative and can act first before monsters and party members get tangled up in melee with each other, and those enemies don't fly, and they don't have good ranged options. But as a 13th+ level party I never encountered such a situation. Eventually I switched it out for something else (Mass Suggestion I think, yes a lower level spell) after going months never finding a good time to cast it.

Well, if your party runs right in and doesn't wait for you to use the spell, or you lose initiative and the enemies move away, that's not much different than for any other offensive spell (fireball for ex). If you let them know what you plan, maybe they'll wait so they can attack with advantage.

Also useful for capsizing ships, breaching castle defenses, and lifting tons of cargo. I get these may not be "ordinary" situations, but still.

[Chronos]

Quoth Tanarii:

Depends if the clear path rule allows it to affect the blocking cover or not.

If it doesn't work on the surface of lava or dirt, then by the same logic it shouldn't work on a creature on top of the surface.

And for the "fall twice" use, surely you don't want a ceiling more than 40' high. The ideal case would be a ceiling exactly as high as the Reverse Gravity.

[Peelee]

If your origin point is the top of the cylinder and it goes down into lava, the clear path rule might mean it only affects the very topmost layer of the lava... at first. And then that topmost layer falls away, exposing more below it, and so on until you get the full height of the spell.

That's how I'd handle it. So long as the clear path exists at the start, I'd just have magical inertia keep it going once it became blocked. Tower of water or lava sounds fun.

Depends if the clear path rule allows it to affect the blocking cover or not.

But if that works, it should work on dirt / soil that's not very compacted or held in place sufficiently by plants as well. Would make for one heck of field tilling or aeration method.

Dirt doesn't flow, though. At best, you'd get a small layer. Unless my players really wanted that layer, I'd ignore it.

[Chronos]

Loose dirt does flow, if it's tilted enough. And I'd have to think that 180º would be tilted enough. It wouldn't affect the soil with a bottom-up casting, which I expect casters would usually default to, but it seems like it could with a top-down casting.

[deljzc]

What is the "clear path rule"? I only see clear path explained for targeting, not effects of a spell. That's doesn't make sense.

[nickl_2000]

Loose dirt does flow, if it's tilted enough. And I'd have to think that 180º would be tilted enough. It wouldn't affect the soil with a bottom-up casting, which I expect casters would usually default to, but it seems like it could with a top-down casting.

This is a video from the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. What you see is loose dirt on a rotating platform. It certainly argue this point very effectively.

[Peelee]

Loose dirt does flow, if it's tilted enough. And I'd have to think that 180º would be tilted enough. It wouldn't affect the soil with a bottom-up casting, which I expect casters would usually default to, but it seems like it could with a top-down casting.

I think sand would qualify as "loose dirt," for the purposes of this argument.

If I scoop a cup of water out the ocean, more water wil immediately and completely fill the area so there is no indentation.

If I scoop a cup of sand off the beach, a minute amount of sand in the sides will very slightly fall into the area maker by the scoop-shaped indentation. It does not flow as water does (or other liquids do, viscosity allowing).

I say again, unless my players really wanted that layer, I'd ignore it.

[Tanarii]

My thinking was if the top layer comes loose, and the next layer is in the AOE, there's now a clear path to it. And then it comes loose. Etc.

OTOH if your point is the spell is instantaneous ... good point. Since the duration is concentration, that should apply, shouldn't it?

What is the "clear path rule"? I only see clear path explained for targeting, not effects of a spell. That's doesn't make sense.

PHB 204, Areas of Effect
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.

It's not actually called the clear path rule, it just works in effectively the same way. Also some AoEs explicitly override this rule by going around corners, Like Fireball and Darkness. They'd still be blocked if there wasn't a way to draw a line at all though, they don't go through solid objects.

[deljzc]

I'm curious how deep in water someone has to be before they are in "total cover"? Have you guys ever had to rule on that?

I mean, if the water is murky or clear, does that make a difference when you decide if a spell can target someone underwater by someone above the water's surface? I guess it does according to RAW.