OOTS #1252 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

The party was already broken. All Serini did was prevent a potentially lethal fight. There was no turning back at that point, no possibility of continued cooperation.

[KorvinStarmast]

The party was already broken. All Serini did was prevent a potentially lethal fight.

Agree.

There was no turning back at that point, no possibility of continued cooperation.

Disagree (more as a matter of principle than as the matter of narrative convenience (which is why the author chose for them not to reconcile)). People in fact can reconcile with one another if they bother to put forth the effort and stop being so selfish; it is possible, I've seen it done. (I've also seen it not done).
But it takes effort and a willingness to meet the other halfway.

[Peelee]

Disagree (more as a matter of principle than as the matter of narrative convenience (which is why the author chose for them not to reconcile)). People in fact can reconcile with one another if they bother to put forth the effort and stop being so selfish; it is possible, I've seen it done.

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

[Wintermoot]

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

In real life or in Media?

Thankfully, in real life, "you killed our friend" is pretty rarified. In Media, it's nearly the norm. We are rewatchign Arrow right now and half that show is people reconciling and becoming friends with someone who killed their old friend (granted, the old friend then comes back only to die again ad naseaum)

It certainly isn't hard to think of cases of "we reconciled even though you killed our friend" in media. And the OotS is media after all.

Althought I stand by my belief that once "the truth" finally gets revealed, the story of Kragor's death won't be "Soon did it" or even "Soon is mostly responsible" so much as "overcome with grief, Dorokun and Gerard lashed out at the available target" (or, in Gerard's case, not so much "overcome with grief" as "mildly annoyed with grief")

[danielxcutter]

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

[Peelee]

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

I'm with you on that Girard was almost certainly the primary reason.

[danielxcutter]

It's the same with the other adventurer teams, but none of the counterparts are perfect matches for each character one-on-one except the Linear Guild(who did that on purpose and even then it's still not 100%). However, I think Girard parallels Belkar in being the problem-maker and unlike him didn't get better or get his crap together either.

[InvisibleBison]

I've seen people say Xycon would've just rolled over them all because illusions are useless against the undead, and while the part about illusions is true it places too much emphasis on the illusions and not enough on the wizards/sorcerers that cast them.

The part about illusions is in fact not correct. Neither undead in general nor liches in particular are immune to illusions; they're only immune to mind-affecting effects, and not all illusions are mind-affecting. Of the nine spells on the list in #842, only Wall of Gloom and possibly Phantasmagoria (I couldn't find a spell by that name) are mind-affecting. The other seven would work just fine against Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon also has Superb Dispelling and a high Will save though, plus most illusions are completely worthless once True Seeing becomes commonplace. It's not a personal spell, either.

[Emanick]

Xykon also has Superb Dispelling and a high Will save though, plus most illusions are completely worthless once True Seeing becomes commonplace. It's not a personal spell, either.

Xykon can probably only cast Superb Dispelling once, though - twice, at most. Meanwhile, he's facing dozens of casters, several of whom are high level and all of whom get to cast once per round. At the same time, I would be surprised if many of Girard's family weren't also capable of dispelling, and since Xykon doesn't seem to know True Seeing, they only have to beat Redcloak's DC.

[danielxcutter]

I honestly don't know how well they'd fare against Xykon - he prefers brute force, but he has a lot of brute force and he's more lazy than actually stupid.

They'd have absolutely butchered the Order if V hadn't wiped them out with the Familicide not long after they'd triggered the trap, though.

[GeneralVryth]

It just occurred to me that each gate fell due to a blindspot in each defense:

Lirian's gate fell due to her not warding against fire.

Dorukon's gate fell because his love for Lirian was exploited.

Soon's gate fell because of the fanatacism of one (fallen) paladin.

Draketooth's gate fell because of an exploitable reliance upon a single genetic heritage.

It is beginoing to look like Serini's gate will fall unless she learns to trust others.

I'm not saying these are obvious issues for which the various defenders should have prepared; mortals all have blind spots and some of these blind spots were highly unlikely. I am saying that it seems to be yet another theme in the comic: going it alone leads to disaster because the lone hero can overlook something or with the aid of a partner can fill in for a weakness.

This can be taken a step further, it's not just a blindspot in each defense, but an actual weakness in each of their philosophies.

Lirian's gate fell because of her instinct to preserve life, she let extremely powerful enemies live and as Redcloak remarks (though it could have been a joke) part of the reason the fire spread so fast it smaller fires weren't allowed to burn in the past.

Dorukan's fell because he believed in the might of magic (specifically his individual magic) above all else, and then allowed himself to be pulled out into a vulnerable position.

Soon's fell because he believed in his Paladins above all else, and it was a Paladin that damaged the cities defenses and ultimately destroyed the gate when she should have showed patience.

Draketooth's fell because of his reliance on family and the inability to foresee what could happen if his family targeted.


Which goes along with the theme that they were each much weaker apart than they were as a team. Serini's gate of course is the only one actually guarded by 2 philosophies and seems to be the most resilient because of it.

[PontificatusRex]

Xykon also has Superb Dispelling and a high Will save though, plus most illusions are completely worthless once True Seeing becomes commonplace. It's not a personal spell, either.

Right, so I am going with the assumption that someone in the Draketooth clan was aware that True Seeing exists, and that even though their primary defense was staying hidden via illusions they had the brains to make some backup plans if something came along that was not affected by them.

Going back to the teamwork thing, even if Girard was obsessed with illusions to the point of not considering other defenses (which I doubt), we're talking dozens of people over many years. Someone would have thought about it.

[RatElemental]

Xykon can probably only cast Superb Dispelling once, though - twice, at most. Meanwhile, he's facing dozens of casters, several of whom are high level and all of whom get to cast once per round. At the same time, I would be surprised if many of Girard's family weren't also capable of dispelling, and since Xykon doesn't seem to know True Seeing, they only have to beat Redcloak's DC.

Xykon can actually cast superb dispelling at least twice per day unless he prepares some other epic spell(s) in addition to it. In order to cast epic spells at all you need 24 ranks in knowledge (arcana) for arcane casters, and you get epic spell slots per day equal to your ranks in your epic casting skill divided by ten, rounded down.

[Metastachydium]

Serini's gate of course is the only one actually guarded by 2 philosophies and seems to be the most resilient because of it.

It seems to be more resilient merely because it didn't fall yet, but Team Evil proved that the monsters are basically speedbumps if enough sheer force is applied, whereas the Order demonstrated that all pne needs to bypass the threshhold traps is a highish level rogue and a competent enough team (with some luck) can beat Serini herself right on her on turf and playing by her rules.
Also, (unless I'm mistaken) it took more time for Team Evil to grind through Dorukan and his dungeon, not to mention figuring out his final sigil (they never got around to deactivating). The main issue there was not making the self-destruct mechanism idiot-proof.

Going back to the teamwork thing, even if Girard was obsessed with illusions to the point of not considering other defenses (which I doubt)

In fact, we know he wasn't. The place was also choke full of traps (some of which needed to be carefully disabled even after the illusions were gone) and the final line of defense was simply a triple bluff and a sheet of lead.

[KorvinStarmast]

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

One that I can recall vividly. (Hunting accident IRL).
The other I always recall I think happened in your lifetime, although it was a case of attempted murder.

Spoiler: Another example

Show

The Pope was the target ...

In real life or in Media?

Thankfully, in real life, "you killed our friend" is pretty rarified. In Media, it's nearly the norm. It certainly isn't hard to think of cases of "we reconciled even though you killed our friend" in media. And the OotS is media after all.

Althought I stand by my belief that once "the truth" finally gets revealed, the story of Kragor's death won't be "Soon did it" or even "Soon is mostly responsible" so much as "overcome with grief, Dorokun and Gerard lashed out at the available target" (or, in Gerard's case, not so much "overcome with grief" as "mildly annoyed with grief")

My guess as well, hopefully Serini will provide "this is what I saw happen" soon.

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

Not betting against.

[Skull the Troll]

I think more along the lines that the OotS is much more likely to not use lethal force against Sunny. Or failing that, lack the ability to one shot them.

Thats probably down to the darkness though. If they had been able to see a beholder looking down at them before they were mostly incapacitated, every one of them would have pulled out the biggest gun they could think of. By the time they were free to act they had heard Sunny speaking and some of that good alignment had a chance to kick in.

[Vikenlugaid]

I am not sure what she expected, but she surely underestimated their capability. Hubris?

To be fair, NONE could expect a tiny lizard saving the day, abd without him it would have been just Haley vs Serini + Sunny and althought Haley is smart and that I don't think she stand a chance vs any of them.

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

I still think is Soon. I mean, Dorukan is not "attacking" Girard, both of them are attacking Soon.
I don't see a scene with Belkar going against Roy and, say, Haley siding with Belkar, it's really weird to see. If Girard was "the problem" at this point we should have been told something about it, and we only know he didn't respect authority and was paranoic about it.
If this ends being "Girard was idiot and an ass and Soon was nice" it will be a bit disappointing.

In fact, I think Kraagor's was the Belkar if the scribblers, and so Soon didn't care risking him at all.

This can be taken a step further, it's not just a blindspot in each defense, but an actual weakness in each of their philosophies.

Lirian's gate fell because of her instinct to preserve life, she let extremely powerful enemies live and as Redcloak remarks (though it could have been a joke) part of the reason the fire spread so fast it smaller fires weren't allowed to burn in the past.

Dorukan's fell because he believed in the might of magic (specifically his individual magic) above all else, and then allowed himself to be pulled out into a vulnerable position.

Soon's fell because he believed in his Paladins above all else, and it was a Paladin that damaged the cities defenses and ultimately destroyed the gate when she should have showed patience.

Draketooth's fell because of his reliance on family and the inability to foresee what could happen if his family targeted.


Which goes along with the theme that they were each much weaker apart than they were as a team. Serini's gate of course is the only one actually guarded by 2 philosophies and seems to be the most resilient because of it.

Well, Dorukan was absolutely right. He believed that magic was the most powerfull thing , and it was only magic, just more powerful magic, the thing that beated him. And, even being dead, his gate was protected, and Xykon was destroyed, by his magic.

Soon, on the other hand, was clearly wrong, the honour of a paladin is not unbreakable... And, in fact, his ultimate defense of the gate was... Magic, more or less XD

The Draketooth thing is a big stretch.

[Emanick]

Xykon can actually cast superb dispelling at least twice per day unless he prepares some other epic spell(s) in addition to it. In order to cast epic spells at all you need 24 ranks in knowledge (arcana) for arcane casters, and you get epic spell slots per day equal to your ranks in your epic casting skill divided by ten, rounded down.

Yes, he can technically cast Superb Dispelling at least twice every day, but since he probably casts Epic Mage Armor (which we know he has, thanks to O-Chul) on a daily basis, that only leaves one or two slots for other epic spells.

[brian 333]

The CE character is not always the party's most disruptive personality. Just as a thought experiment, let's look at the alignments of the Scribblers. (Feel free to ignore the alignments I assign, your values may vary from mine, and I have not read the prequels.)

Soon = LG
Dorukon = NG
Lirian = TN
Serini = CG
Kraggor = C (N or G)
Girard = CN

Just from this one may infer that Soon was the odd man out. His attempts to lead the party in an organized and structured way may well have had results similar to Miko's attempts to lead The OotS. Of course, Girard would have been most opposed to him and far more charismatic, with the majority of the party on his side philosophically.

This would have put Dorukon in the position of peacemaker, and he would likely have spent a great deal of his efforts in trying to get Soon to go along with the party and being ignored or in a state of constant argument. If there was justification for blaming him for Kraggor's unmaking, that would have put Dorukon in a much worse position, or he would have to have joined in the accusations leveled at Soon, with the added burden of having wasted his time trying to get Soon to cooperate.

In this case, Soon was the Belkar of The Order of the Scribble.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but Dorukan never set traps to murder any of the other Scribblers.

And Girard didn’t have to be Evil to be the most disruptive of the party. Soon, Dorukan, Lirian all seemed to be at least decent if flawed people, and Serini is acting according to very human(for lack of a better word) and understandable flaws considering what she went through.

In addition, being a less than ideal leader for the Scribblers doesn’t mean Soon was responsible for everything that happened.

Edit: oh, also barbarians just have to be non-Lawful. TN or NG is also fine.

[Rogan]

In addition, being a less than ideal leader for the Scribblers doesnÂ’t mean Soon was responsible for everything that happened.

Responsible? No. But he still seems to be the focal point of the conflict.
Granted, this might mean there would be conflict even without him, but this conflict would have another target.

But let's see:
Dorukan and Liran were in a romantic relationship. They probably didn't have that much conflict.
Serini and Girald still had some communication after the split up, so they seemed to get along fine. (The trap was set to inform both) I don't think there was any indication of conflict between Serini and any other member of the Scribblers. Rather the opposite, given recent strips.

Girald and Dorukan seemed to be on the same side in the nearly fight against Soon. Otherwise there is not too much known about their relationship, as far as I know.

So, maybe unpopular opinion, but...
Is it really a broken party if there are 5 living members and conflict revolving around one of them? Or is it one person not fitting into the party, which would work just fine without this one person?

[brian 333]

Yeah, but Dorukan never set traps to murder any of the other Scribblers.

And Girard didn’t have to be Evil to be the most disruptive of the party. Soon, Dorukan, Lirian all seemed to be at least decent if flawed people, and Serini is acting according to very human(for lack of a better word) and understandable flaws considering what she went through.

In addition, being a less than ideal leader for the Scribblers doesn’t mean Soon was responsible for everything that happened.

Edit: oh, also barbarians just have to be non-Lawful. TN or NG is also fine.

As I understand it, the traps were after, not during the time they were a party. They were intended to catch Soon when he broke his oath of non interference. My point was about when they were still a party adventuring together.

Having never claimed Soon was responsible for anything, I don't feel compelled to refute that he wasn't. What I did say was that he was the one who was the troublemaker of the party. His rigidity would have been problematic for the individualistic majority of the party.

Based on the statement that Kraggor respected strength above all else, I infer Chaotic alignment. Chaotic alignment is about individual power, whether to dominate others, (Evil,) or to defend others, (Good,) or to do what they want regardless of others, (Neutral.) Yes, Kraggor may be any non-Lawful alignment, but I think the comic hints he is a Chaotic. You are free to disagree.

[danielxcutter]

Calling Soon the troublemaker really does carry the connotations of assigning him blame though. He certainly may not have been the best leader for the Scribblers, I won't refute that, but considering what we know about Girard I'm more inclined to blame him unless evidence to the contrary is shown.

I'm not even sure if there's going to be a huge twist for the Scribblers, just a bit more insight. And for the record, it doesn't have to be a twist to be good.

[Liquor Box]

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

In real life or in Media?

Thankfully, in real life, "you killed our friend" is pretty rarified. In Media, it's nearly the norm.

I imagine it's pretty common in real life too, although fortunately our lives don't usually intersect with it. I mean we are not talking about someone murdering their friend - rather someone making a decision or mistake that resulted in the death of a friend.

I imagine that in combat squadmates die from time to time, and those deaths are partly consequence of decisions made by others in the squad. Yet the expectation wouldn;t be that the squad immediately falls apart.

I honestly don't know how well they'd fare against Xykon - he prefers brute force, but he has a lot of brute force and he's more lazy than actually stupid.

They'd have absolutely butchered the Order if V hadn't wiped them out with the Familicide not long after they'd triggered the trap, though.

I think it's likely that Girard's family was strong enough to pose a significant challenge to Xykon. After all, that's true of Soon's gate (where the defenders actually defeated him), Lirian's gate (where he was imprisoned for ages before escaping) and Dorukon's gate where he won but later said that it was close. I think in each of those cases the fight could have gone differently and it could have been a different result. I expect Girard's gate would have gone similarly.

Which goes along with the theme that they were each much weaker apart than they were as a team. Serini's gate of course is the only one actually guarded by 2 philosophies and seems to be the most resilient because of it.

I don't think Serini's gate is the most resilient.
- The defences at Lirian's gate left Xykon captured for months before he escaped
- Xykon never overcame the defences at Dorukon's gate despite trying for three years
- Xykon lost at Soon's gate

So far Xykon has been at Serini's gate for a week. We don't know what will happen, but I don't think there's any reason to think it's the most resilient.

[danielxcutter]

True. And action economy is a thing.

Still, the Draketooths were absolutely not only able but probably extremely willing to use scry-and-die on and quite literally destroy the Order; there's a decent chance that Dorukan or Lirian would at least have been willing to hear the Order out. Even Serini isn't resorting to murder as a first choice.

[brian 333]

Troublemaker I said, but that doesn't mean he was at fault for the failures of The Order of the Scribble any more than Haley was responsible for the death of Solt the Gnome.

Have you ever played with that kid who was a tattle-tale? Or the one who was always always reciting rules, and would take his ball and go home when everyone ignored him? Those kids didn't deserve the wedgies they were subjected to, but they were certainly troublemakers even though it was the kid who over reacted and gave the short hoist who got in trouble.

[danielxcutter]

...I'm going to be honest, it still sounds like the word "troublemaker" carries some connotations of blame with that school comparison. Though I agree with the Solt comparison, that one's fair.

[Liquor Box]

I think more along the lines that the OotS is much more likely to not use lethal force against Sunny. Or failing that, lack the ability to one shot them.

I think the Order would have used lethal force against Serini and Sunny. All they knew at the time was that they were being attacked. it probably wasn't obvious to them that the other side was trying to avoid lethal attacks, so it would be only natural to respond with all they had.

Serini was prepared to use lethal force herself when she started to get desperate.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, the Order isn't "kill first ask questions never" and hasn't been for a while. And "lethal force" is a bit tricky when it's incredibly hard to outright one-shot someone at the level and optimization the party is.