OOTS #1252 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

Basically anything with Int 3+ that isn’t an extraplanar outsider or undead goes to some afterlife, I think.

We see the spirit of a dog "up on the cloud" with Roy:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0534.html

so even Int 2 beings may get an afterlife.

[Wraithfighter]

Was Carrot Machiavellian? I genuinely don't remember him not being genuine?

It's... hard to say.

It's one of the things that made the later Watch books so fascinating: Carrot was no longer the Heroic But Naive Watchman, still plenty heroic and still a watchman, of course, but a lot less naive. And the characters that knew him closest, Vimes and Angua, got this disquieting sense that Carrot was a very complex person underneath all that apparent simplicity. Like, that he was aware that Discworld operated with Narrative Laws being on a similar level to the Laws of Physics, and always seemed to position himself in a place where he was the Noble Hero Saving The Day.

There's a reason why we're rarely in his head in the later Watch books. Scenes that involve him always get told from the perspective of another character, to keep the ambiguity about what goes on behind those entirely earnest and honest eyes...

[RatElemental]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

[Kardwill]

Even if it was a child (with Elan and Thog, need more proof than just "behaves childlike") the literal world is at stake here and they need every arrow in their quiver. It's not as if the Gods will spare Sunny when they tear up creation.

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

[danielxcutter]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

I think Rich managed to cut a deal with WotC though.

[Emanick]

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

I think it would be okay if it was explicitly addressed in the comic, as in "hey you're not fully grown this seems wrong" versus "yeah but if you guys lose because I'm not there, I not only die but risk getting my soul erased, so I still prefer this."

It requires Sunny to be old enough to at least understand the stakes, but that much seems to be the case.

[danielxcutter]

I think it would be okay if it was explicitly addressed in the comic, as in "hey you're not fully grown this seems wrong" versus "yeah but if you guys lose because I'm not there, I not only die but risk getting my soul erased, so I still prefer this."

It requires Sunny to be old enough to at least understand the stakes, but that much seems to be the case.

I think the problem is whether Serini will allow them - and frankly, as much as I do wish Serini gets her crap together soon, I wouldn't blame her at all if she didn't want adoptive children to be fighting the guy who tore her apart like string cheese and murdered her epic caster friends.

[Kardwill]

It's... hard to say.

It's one of the things that made the later Watch books so fascinating

I'd say it goes as early as the Rifle case (so, second book? don't remember), when he conveniently kills the only man who could identify him as a "true-heir-with-mysterious-birthmark", and we're left wondering "wait, did he act in self-defense to protect a bystander's life, or did he just commit murder to protect the political statu-quo?". His reaction is very ambiguous, and the fact that the documents mysteriously disapeared doesn't help.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say it goes as early as the Rifle case (so, second book? don't remember), when he conveniently kills the only man who could identify him as a "true-heir-with-mysterious-birthmark", and we're left wondering "wait, did he act in self-defense to protect a bystander's life, or did he just commit murder to protect the political statu-quo?". His reaction is very ambiguous, and the fact that the documents mysteriously disapeared doesn't help.

It does seem he genuinely doesn't want to be king because he doesn't think that'd be right for the city.

[Fyraltari]

But he does, once in a while, drop by the Palace to have a chat with the Patrician. During which, Vetinari listens very intensely.

[snowblizz]

I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

[danielxcutter]

I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

I think my eyes didn't shrivel up and fall out upon is because the concept of that did first.

[PontificatusRex]

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

I think Sunny seems younger because he (it? they?) calls Serini "Mom", but really every team in the story except maybe Tarquin's has a very childlike, innocent-seeming member that gets lots of comedic material that contrasts their worldview with everyone else's. Elan, Thog, the Monster in the Darkness, and now Sunny all have that same role, but that doesn't mean they're not suitable for going into battle. I'm assuming one of these days the MitD will actually join in a fight for real...Heck, the bits we've seen from the Order of the Scribble suggest that Serini might have played a similar role in her team.

Interesting that in terms of writing comedy, now that the MitD has grown up a lot and gotten more serious, his role as comic relief in Team Evil has been largely taken over by Oona, who though not childlike still has an innocent-feeling joie de vivre that lends itself to similar humor.

[bunsen_h]

unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in those shackles (and since she expects the Order to die, that means dying of starvation fairly soon), she's going to talk.

In addition to points others have made about this, she has many monstrous allies in her dungeon.

I mean it’s entirely reasonable to assume Sunny’s not an adult by how they act.

The M*A*S*H episode "Divided We Stand" has an Army psychologist visit the unit to assess goings-on. He comments on the behaviour he's seen: "Childish! Not childlike, with its connotations of innocence and joyous abandon, but childish. You delight in petty bickering, summer camp capers and, in general, behave in a manner ill-befitting officers in the United States Army and members of the medical profession." (And then a bunch of wounded soldiers arrive, everyone drops the pretenses of misbehaviour, and Hildebrand gets to see them in professional action.)

I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

I once had a boss who was more than a bit like that. On any decision, he'd wait until after the last minute to decide, and then would still change his mind after work was under way. And he was a micromanager; any non-trivial decision in the company had to go through him. When I'd given my notice of resignation and was writing up a description of my position so it could be submitted to job-hunt sites, I included: "Moderate precognitive telepathy would be a distinct asset." I did point that sentence out to the office manager when I handed the description off to her, so she could remove it if she saw fit. She did delete it, but agreed with me fully that it was absolutely accurate.

She gave notice just two weeks after I did. She said that I'd seemed so much happier around the office that she'd done some serious self-reflecting and come to the same conclusion that I had. Working for that guy was so utterly soul-sucking that it was better to be unemployed, living off savings, and looking for work.

[Fyraltari]

I think Sunny seems younger because he (it? they?) calls Serini "Mom", but really every team in the story except maybe Tarquin's has a very childlike, innocent-seeming member that gets lots of comedic material that contrasts their worldview with everyone else's.

That does describe Tarquin's role in his gang.

[Lord Torath]

I also demand a plushie!

Here you go: Some assembly required.

My wife actually made me one of these (although it's only get 6 eye stalks - she could only take so much).

[Squire Doodad]

That does describe Tarquin's role in his gang.

Tarquin is simply a professional Elan.

[Ruck]

It seems Serini and Haley's dad have similar problems regarding parental skills and trust issues. Is it a rogue thing?

Hmm. On the one hand, two is a pretty small sample size to draw any broader conclusions. On the other, "people who become rogues tend to have trust issues" has its own inherent logic to it.

[DeliaP]

The manacles she used on the paladins would have been my pick

With the bonus that they would actually be, you know, freeing their manacled freinds in the process!

I'm imagining the next strip having OotS and Serini having their discussion, and then Lien's voice calling down: "Yeah, while you're trying to reach an agreement there would one of you mind unlocking us???"

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm imagining the next strip having OotS and Serini having their discussion, and then Lien's voice calling down: "Yeah, while you're trying to reach an agreement there would one of you mind unlocking us???"

Lien is very practical, yes she is.

[Doctor West]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

Worse, in fact. WotC had little to no legal basis to call foul on Rusty: Rust Monsters have been released to the public domain SRD and Rusty is a recognizable, legally distinct character besides. It's just hard for a webcomic author to push back when they get threatened with a lawsuit by a corporation, even if its based on crap. (And, the comic did have other trademarked creatures in it.)

Meanwhile Beholders are *actually* trademarked, not released to the SRD, and both TSR and WotC have a long history of being legendarily protective of them specifically. Rich has probably changed up enough (and has enough clout) to be safe, but making a physical product would run the risk of getting bad attention like the Rusty and Co case did to be sure.

[bunsen_h]

The manacles she used on the paladins would have been my pick

Lord Vetinari: "Never build a dungeon you wouldn't want to spend the night in yourself" and "Never build a dungeon you can't get out of".

[Skull the Troll]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

If you google "Beholder Plushie" You find lots of people are doing it, many with alternative names.

[danielxcutter]

If you google "Beholder Plushie" You find lots of people are doing it, many with alternative names.

Yes, but I was under the impression that those were small. If someone as big as the Giant tried it, they might very well try to crack down on it hard - as mentioned earlier upthread, they went after Rusty and Co. with less justification and more BS than this.

That being said if the legal issues did not become a problem and Rich started selling them I imagine a considerable percentage of the fanbase would be falling over each other to shove money down his throat.

[Vikenlugaid]

I mean, even Serini seemed a bit childish/naive/innocent in the old times when she was adventuring with the scribblers, and that doesn't stop them to "use" her in a very dangerous quest.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, even Serini seemed a bit childish/naive/innocent in the old times when she was adventuring with the scribblers, and that doesn't stop them to "use" her in a very dangerous quest.

Even in the flashbacks, she's clearly operating at an adult-level of maturity, unlike Elan, Thog or Sunny.

[danielxcutter]

You know, on careful thought I don't actually think that was particularly immature or annoying unless there's further context.

[Peelee]

Anyway, Sunny doesn't seem much different from Elan or Thog. I don't see much reason to assume Sunny is a child and not simply immature in a similar way.

[danielxcutter]

I still choose to exercise skepticism to whether Serini will be willing to let Sunny aid the Order(whether or not she does), at least at first.

I mean, I wouldn't blame her. That's a fairly understandable reaction on several layers.

[Peelee]

I still choose to exercise skepticism to whether Serini will be willing to let Sunny aid the Order(whether or not she does), at least at first.

I mean, I wouldn't blame her. That's a fairly understandable reaction on several layers.

"Let" Sunny? Whatever you think of her or what her actual faults are, she has been shown to be empathetic and caring for "monstrous" races. I don't think this is a master/servant situation like you're describing.