Is Barbarian more frontloaded than we think?

[johnbragg]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

[Dork_Forge]

In case you were unaware, you don't have to choose the same totem for your various path abilities, the 6th+ ones can be whatever totem choice appeals to you most.

[Dr.Samurai]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.

I recall at that level sometimes I ran out of ages with 3/day. Much less so with 4/day, but I can see how 3 might be enough for you.

That said, I'll echo Dork_Forge and let you know that you don't have to stick with the same animal totem at each class feature level; you can pick and choose different animals each time. So better darkvision, or two extra skills, or better travel pace/tracking. I don't think any of these will be better than a Fighting Style but that's why there are benefits to multiclassing.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.

Are you fighting with 2 weapons normally?

I can see the benefits of a fighting style. Second Wind is going to be 1d10+1 per rest. I mean... it's nice, I guess.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.

Action Surge would be the primary reason to multiclass into Fighter so I think this level is clearly in the fighter's favor.

If you are using Tasha's optional features, the barbarian would also get Instinctive Pounce, which lets you move half your speed as part of the same bonus action to rage. So this level lets you avoid surprise, get advantage on Initiative, and move half your speed when you rage. I think it's a good level, but obviously Action Surge is a very powerful ability that recharges on a short rest.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.

It also depends on what maneuvers you plan on taking. A lot of the maneuvers that are considered the best (Trip, Precision, Parry) the barbarian can already replicate. Precision? Your attacks are made with Advantage. Parry? You have resistance to damage. Trip? You can Shove vs Athletics/Acrobatics instead of forcing a Saving Throw.

Maneuvers like Menacing Attack or Riposte are less easily replicated, so if you do go this route make sure you're expanding your repertoire.

The Battle Master has the advantage on some of these because the Superiority Dice tack on damage and don't eat up an attack or action. However, if we assume all 4 dice are used per short rest, the fighter is looking at an extra 18 damage on average per rest. The Barbarian gets +2 damage on all attacks while raging. So if the Barbarian is two-weapon fighting, as yours appears to be, that's 6 extra damage per turn. If combat goes 3 rounds, that's 18 damage right there. Now, you're not going to hit each of those attacks (thought you might if you're using Reckless Attack, which you should be), but that's just one combat. You can keep doing this as long as you can Rage.

We should point out though that the Battle Master also gets an artisan tool proficiency at this level.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.

This is where I multiclassed out on my barbarian. My barbarian also uses two weapons, so Brutal Critical is not really adding much on a critical hit, and the +1 damage I didn't find compelling compared to other class features from multiclassing. I think the ASI is definitely better here.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)

Yeah I mean... Commune with Nature is nice but I wasn't excited for this on my Totem Barbarian so I had already multiclassed out. Dead level is unfortunate with Extra Attack.

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

For me, the first 8 levels of barbarian are worth it. But I admit that I very rarely consider multiclassing as an option, so I'm probably not representative of most people that play. Once I got to level 8 with my leonin two-weapon Totem Barbarian, I realized the upcoming levels were not that attractive and I multiclassed out to Paladin.

I think in your case, the Action Surge and extra ASI are very strong reasons to multiclass.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

I've always thought Barbarian was, if not frontloaded, then rather back-unloaded. If that makes any sense. That said...

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.

For me, simply getting more rages a day was a big deal. This might not matter if you're pulling few encounters a day, but it's not uncommon for me to be doing 6+ Deadlies a day. I can stretch a caster's resources through that pretty efficiently, but a Barbarian? There's nothing to stretch. You simply will run out of Rages, and when those run out so do a great deal of your class features.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

Perhaps another thing worth noting is that some of the best Barbarian subclasses have level 6 features that you may find more attractive than Totem's options (even the better mix'n'match ones). For example, a Zealot gets up to 4 save rerolls a day, which can be used after seeing the roll, as well as Divine Fury scaling. That's no small feature to be skipping out on.

[Kane0]

When the vast majority of your class and subclass relies on having rage active, more rages is a big deal.
Of course, the full 5+ encounters per long rest isnt necessarily the norm for all games.

[Jerrykhor]

I thought Barbarian being frontloaded is common knowledge. Having recently played a Barb/Fighter multiclass and finished a whole campaign, Barbarian is done getting anything interesting past level 7. I started at Barb 3, leveled up to 5, then Barb5/Fighter4, then ended with Barb10/Fighter4. Subclass were Totem/Battlemaster. The Fighter levels were the most impactful, having Precision Strike maneuver upped my damage output by a lot, and made it more consistent.

The problem with Barbarian high level features is that they are all passives with low impact or just small numbers increase. I'll be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that my magic weapon had Champion's improve critical range, i wouldn't be having as much fun. I did crit a lot thanks to that, and the numbers were big. But that's all there is, a big beat stick.

The biggest offender is Persistent Rage. For a level 15 feature, it is weak as hell and does nothing 99% of the time. My DM was lenient on the dealing/taken damage condition of Rage, so it would have mean nothing to me. But you also get this feature when you already have 5 uses of Rage, so its hard to appreciate its usefulness.

[Xetheral]

Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.

Don't forget that the ability to function normally in the surprise round if you Rage can sometimes be useless. If you win initiative (or just go before anyone manages to hit you) and aren't in range to attack the ambushers (and you won't be if the ambushers know you're a Barbarian) then Rage will end immediately at the end of your turn if you use Feral Instinct.

[stoutstien]

The biggest offender is Persistent Rage. For a level 15 feature, it is weak as hell and does nothing 99% of the time. My DM was lenient on the dealing/taken damage condition of Rage, so it would have mean nothing to me. But you also get this feature when you already have 5 uses of Rage, so its hard to appreciate its usefulness.

Funny. Persistent rage to me is almost necessary but should come online early. Incapacitated/action denial is a fairly common rider that usually targets a save that the barbarian isn't great. persistent at least prevents them from being completely nullified and draining rage which is limited even at 5 per LR. Lv 15 is when the class starts coming out of the stretch of nothing since lv 7. Some subclasses have decent options but are almost entirely tied to the race limit.

[DarknessEternal]

Answer: No. It's pretty wildly and obviously front loaded.

Barbarian past level 2 is almost worthless. Past level 3 is absolutely worthless.

[Slider Eclipse]

Honestly I'd say it's less that Barbarian is frontloaded (it is but not to heavily). and more that Fighter is perhaps the single most frontloaded class in the entire game outside of debatably Hexblade Warlock.

Fighter is legitimately the only class that gets no actual dead levels until 9th (discounting the fact that Extra Attack doesn't stack) at which point the entire class immediately stops granting much of value for multiple levels, and the features you get in those first three levels are honestly far better than anything barring a Hexblade Warlock in a Charisma based build. literally anyone can take 2-4 levels of fighter and get a lot more out of it than any other choice.

[diplomancer]

Honestly I'd say it's less that Barbarian is frontloaded (it is but not to heavily). and more that Fighter is perhaps the single most frontloaded class in the entire game outside of debatably Hexblade Warlock.

Fighter is legitimately the only class that gets no actual dead levels until 9th (discounting the fact that Extra Attack doesn't stack) at which point the entire class immediately stops granting much of value for multiple levels, and the features you get in those first three levels are honestly far better than anything barring a Hexblade Warlock in a Charisma based build. literally anyone can take 2-4 levels of fighter and get a lot more out of it than any other choice.

Both PHB Ranger and Paladin have pretty bad 1st levels (compared to fighters, at least) and PHB Ranger 6 is nothing to be happy about either. But apart from that, no, there are no dead levels for ANY class before, at least, 5, and I'd say probably before 9. And getting 4 levels of Fighter on a full caster is, though not necessarily bad, definitely not optimal except in very specific games (usually 1 vs 1 PVP, where the value of Action Surge is disproportionately high- since you're doubling the actions of your entire "party" for the 1st round).

[Dr.Samurai]

Answer: No. It's pretty wildly and obviously front loaded.

Barbarian past level 2 is almost worthless. Past level 3 is absolutely worthless.

Level 4 is an ASI and level 5 is extra attack. If you’re okay delaying things then sure, but I think you’re overstating your case here.

[DarknessEternal]

Level 4 is an ASI and level 5 is extra attack. If you’re okay delaying things then sure, but I think you’re overstating your case here.

Neither of those are worth delaying levels in a better class that will have those features as well.

[Dr.Samurai]

Neither of those are worth delaying levels in a better class that will have those features as well.

So you say. I’m not sure every build is okay delaying Extra Attack by three levels, or an ASI by four levels.

I’m not disagreeing that this could be the case, but it won’t be all the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

For me, simply getting more rages a day was a big deal.

The barbarians in our games frequently run out of rage. And we have all laughed at how the rage bonus damage becomes so lame at later tiers. I'd like to see rage tied to proficiency bonus: that many rages and that bonus damage. I can be shown that other revisions might be better, but this one seems to me to fit the latest design paradigm of linking more stuff to proficiency bonus.

Avantage on initiative is really handy. (Or so the two barbarians who I DM for have expressed)

[diplomancer]

The barbarians in our games frequently run out of rage. And we have all laughed at how the rage bonus damage becomes so lame at later tiers. I'd like to see rage tied to proficiency bonus: that many rages and that bonus damage. I can be shown that other revisions might be better, but this one seems to me to fit the latest design paradigm of linking more stuff to proficiency bonus.

Avantage on initiative is really handy. (Or so the two barbarians who I DM for have expressed)

Though letting it scale like proficiency bonus would be a nice boost, it definitely shouldn't be rages=proficiency bonus, or Barbarians will REALLY be a dip class.

[KorvinStarmast]

Though letting it scale like proficiency bonus would be a nice boost, it definitely shouldn't be rages=proficiency bonus, or Barbarians will REALLY be a dip class.

Aah, I don't think like that (what should I dip) so of course I am a bit blind to that kind of ripple effect.

[johnbragg]

I'd like to thank and acknowledge everyone who responded, even if I don't have anything to say directly about your response.

In case you were unaware, you don't have to choose the same totem for your various path abilities, the 6th+ ones can be whatever totem choice appeals to you most.

That's a good point. I'll take a dive through the expanded list of totems to see if anything appeals.

I recall at that level sometimes I ran out of ages with 3/day. Much less so with 4/day, but I can see how 3 might be enough for you.

This is specific to the campaign we're playing in, but we have a lot of 1 encounter days, maybe 2. A lot of wilderness, not a lot of time-sensitive dungeon delving.

Are you fighting with 2 weapons normally?

I've switched back and forth between greataxe and two handaxes. I like the fluff of a raging barbarian cuisinart. (My initial Warforged Artificer died a session ago and I had to roll up a new character quickly, we were low on frontliners and Barbarians roll up quickly).

But I haven't put any build resources into TWF at all yet. And it's hard to beat the math on Great Weapon Master next ASI/feat (but that's not a barbarian vs fighter issue, that's the reality that I don't think Two Weapon Fighting has a -5 to hit/ +10 damage counterpart to Great Weapon Master / Sharpshooter)

I can see the benefits of a fighting style. Second Wind is going to be 1d10+1 per rest. I mean... it's nice, I guess.

Fighting style was the attraction, but Second Wind is a better ribbon than doubling your carrying capacity (Bear totem barbarian)

It also depends on what maneuvers you plan on taking. A lot of the maneuvers that are considered the best (Trip, Precision, Parry) the barbarian can already replicate. Precision? Your attacks are made with Advantage. Parry? You have resistance to damage. Trip? You can Shove vs Athletics/Acrobatics instead of forcing a Saving Throw.

I was thinking Trip, Riposte and something else. More chances to get that +2 Rage +5 Strength damage, plus throw another d8 damage on the pile.

Maneuvers like Menacing Attack or Riposte are less easily replicated, so if you do go this route make sure you're expanding your repertoire.

The Battle Master has the advantage on some of these because the Superiority Dice tack on damage and don't eat up an attack or action. However, if we assume all 4 dice are used per short rest, the fighter is looking at an extra 18 damage on average per rest. The Barbarian gets +2 damage on all attacks while raging. So if the Barbarian is two-weapon fighting, as yours appears to be, that's 6 extra damage per turn. If combat goes 3 rounds, that's 18 damage right there. Now, you're not going to hit each of those attacks (thought you might if you're using Reckless Attack, which you should be), but that's just one combat. You can keep doing this as long as you can Rage.

But I'd be adding the Superiority Dice damage to the +2 rage damage. "Why not both?"

I think in your case, the Action Surge and extra ASI are very strong reasons to multiclass.

[Yakk]

Yes, Barbarian is crazy front-loaded. Often Barb 7 is the end.

At 3 swings/round that is 0.3 crits/round. Getting 4 crits/short rest is pretty easy (13 rounds of fighting on average), so the BM dice can deal 8d8 damage. 36 damage. Nice.

Precision attack isn't as bad as it seems. While you don't miss often, you don't have to use it unless you miss. And if your swings are 1d6+7 damage (10.5), if you miss by 1 that is 10.5 per die, by 2 it is 9.2 per die.

Riposte is also good, for the same reason.

You'll miss by 1 or 2 reasonably often. And when you do, Precision is better than saving your BM dice for a crit. Which makes it more likely that the 13 rounds.

TWF style is 5~ damage per off-hand swing. Over 13 rounds with 75% hit chance that is 49 damage. Nice.

Champion 3 ups your crit chance to 19% from 10%. Over 13 rounds that is 12.3 damage. Meh. Champion really is lackluster.

---

Once you have Fighter 3 or 4 you can just ... stop.

Barbarian 5/Fighter 4. At that point see if there are any other classes you can MC into. I assume you have 14 dex?

Gloomstalker 3 gives you Dread Ambusher, which gives you a crazy alpha strike.

Bearbarian 5/BM 4/Gloom 4 is L 13.

Now, as you are TWF, you are reasonably using finess weapons. And you have advantage.

Go Rogue at that point.

Bearbarian 5/BM 4/Gloom 4/Swashbuckler 7

You get expertise, archtype feature, cunning action, uncanny dodge, and evasion. And a total of 4 ASIs, and 4d6 sneak attack damage you can easily use every round.

From Swashbuckler you get to land SA even if you don't bother with reckless, and you can move past foes you attack for a whirling slaughter.

Your expertise can be Athletics (making you a grappling monster) and Stealth and ... any 2 others.

With a 75% hit chance and 10% crit chance, you get 0.3 crits/round. You don't use SA if your first attack merely hits, and the first hit after that; giving you a 21% crit 96% SA hit rate.

With a pair of +2 short swords this is 10.5 * .85 + 27 * .75 + .3 * 9 + 1.17 * 14 = 48.255 DPR you can keep up for 13 combat rounds (a bit higher and a bit less time actually as you can do Riposte/Precision) per short rest.

On your first turn, you can rage action surge for 6 attacks instead of the standard 3. This doesn't quite double your damage, because you still get only 1 SA, and the ready attack trick doesn't work with reckless attack well.

[Witty Username]

More? I'm not sure. Frontloaded? I would definitely say so, Barbarian might be the least interesting class by T3, and I always have a hard time remembering what they get past 5th level.
I have expressed an opinion on other threads that the Barbarian might be able to be wholesale absorbed by Fighter without losing anything or balance issues, and it's lack of high level abilities is primarily what I am going off of with that.

I think the Barbarian with the least issues with frontloading is Zealot.

[Willie the Duck]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role.

Fundamentally, I think the fighty classes that cap out their multi-attack with the second attack (barbarians, rangers, monks, paladins) all have an issue in T3 and 4 of struggling to stay powerful. The paladin is the success story of the situation, because (in general) the things it gets instead of a 3rd and 4th attack simply work well. All the rest can (I mean, people actually do play these classes at upper levels), but I think you have to do a lot of careful planning and matching class choice to campaign style to make it work well. Which can be frustrating when the paladin and full casters often seem to be more plug-and-play powerful.

Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role. {snip}
Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid.

In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.

[Willie the Duck]

In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.

It certainly would. I generally do non-moon druid and the play cycle is 'when it all hits the fan, I pick up my axe and start swinging, and for everything else there is druid spells.'

[Yakk]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role.

Fundamentally, I think the fighty classes that cap out their multi-attack with the second attack (barbarians, rangers, monks, paladins) all have an issue in T3 and 4 of struggling to stay powerful. The paladin is the success story of the situation, because (in general) the things it gets instead of a 3rd and 4th attack simply work well. All the rest can (I mean, people actually do play these classes at upper levels), but I think you have to do a lot of careful planning and matching class choice to campaign style to make it work well. Which can be frustrating when the paladin and full casters often seem to be more plug-and-play powerful.

Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid.

I mean, the Paladin after L 6 is better off than most fighty classes, but even there dropping Paladin and going a full caster for more smite-fuel often works out better. And the utility gained from a full caster class outpaces the Paladin utility.

If you go Bard, you'll even get access to Paladin characteristic spells almost as fast (via magical secrets).

A problem with Barbarian into Druid is that you start looking like a Druid who can fight rather than a Better Barbarian.

The Barbarian 5 - BM 3/4 - Gloom 3/4 - Swashbuckler X path is a character who keeps on getting better at being a whirling Barbarian. They just do it more effectively than a pure Barbarian does.

And once you have 5 in one Extra Attack class, getting above 5 in another is really questionable, as a dead level is expensive.

[Yakk]

In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.

A Barbarian 10 Druid 4 has L 6 path features, feral instinct, +1 rage damage, +1 daily rage, 1 brutal critical die and 10 more HP.

A Barbarian 5 Druid(moon) 9 has L3/4/5 spells and lots of slots, Flying and CR 3 animal forms.

Commune with Nature as a ritual costs the B5D9 a single known spell. Totem10's feature is a ribbon at that point.

I mean, out of beast form while raging, the B5D9 is very very slightly worse. The 2/SR CR 3 forms instead of 2/SR non-flying CR1 form is a huge game changer, and makes the B5D9 far more durable.

Brutal Critical is, as written, utter trash.

The daily rage is more than made up for by the improved animal forms.

Moon druid self healing using slots means the character doesn't even have to use their Druid spells. They just have access to the option when not-raging.

You end up giving up a very small amount of "vanilla" combat ability for a massive increase in beast form. Say Ankleosarus, where you can use extra attack(2) and reckless attack to great effect.

GWF is great; +4 to hit for 1d12+18 (24) x2 with advantage hits hard. But Ankylosaurus for +7 to hit for 20 x2 with advantage with a save or knock prone, 68 extra HP you can heal with druid slots as a bonus action, is also pretty darn good.

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, the Paladin after L 6 is better off than most fighty classes, but even there dropping Paladin and going a full caster for more smite-fuel often works out better. And the utility gained from a full caster class outpaces the Paladin utility.

I would say they are two relatively equal paths. As an example, a paladin with Polearm Master and levels to get Improved Divine Smite is a sight to see. That said, my metric is not whether something else can outpace it, but whether playing it in T3 and 4 and being successful is a fiddly challenge (or one where in a given campaign, you might not even want to try).

[KorvinStarmast]

A Barbarian 10 Druid 4 has L 6 path features, feral instinct, +1 rage damage, +1 daily rage, 1 brutal critical die and 10 more HP.

You are invited to find that player and tell him that he was doing it wrong. (I understand your point on the optimization approach)
He was a great teammate whose character concept was major in Barbarian and minor in Druid. When I asked him (as he leveled up and chose Barbarian 10) if he was going to take a Druid level and get level 3 spells) his answer was "nope". As I understood his approach, the 4th druid level was to get the ASI and a few more spell slots, but he was majoring in being a Bear-barian.

Spoiler: The rest of the party

Show

We had a full tempest cleric, dwarf, for cleric stuff who had the healer feat which was still useful that level. We two, my Champion and that Barb/Druid, were the front line (with the cleric now and again joining us) that let the rogue and the wizard to their thing (the wizard later turned into a Gloom Stalker as the player got tired of wizarding).

[Yakk]

You are invited to find that player and tell him that he was doing it wrong. (I understand your point on the optimization approach)
He was a great teammate whose character concept was major in Barbarian and minor in Druid. When I asked him (as he leveled up and chose Barbarian 10) if he was going to take a Druid level and get level 3 spells) his answer was "nope". As I understood his approach, the 4th druid level was to get the ASI and a few more spell slots, but he was majoring in being a Bear-barian.

Spoiler: The rest of the party

Show

We had a full tempest cleric, dwarf, for cleric stuff who had the healer feat which was still useful that level. We two, my Champion and that Barb/Druid, were the front line (with the cleric now and again joining us) that let the rogue and the wizard to their thing (the wizard later turned into a Gloom Stalker as the player got tired of wizarding).

Oh, I really get it.

The problem is the Barbarian class, not the idea of a Barbarian primary.

...

As an example of what you could do:

Making Brutal Critical also grant a 19-20 crit range when you reckless attack is the first step, and the upgrades grant 2 dice instead of 1 (so +[W] and 19-20 at 9, +3[W] at 13, and +5[W] at 17 (and maybe 18-20 crit range)).

That by itself provides a fun and mechanically solid "I hit things hard wargable" feature to the back end of the Barbarian. The DPR contribution remains modest even with that massive upgrade to a frankly lackluster feature.

Then you just need to shore up some utility a bit and the Barbarian becomes a solid class.

I would say they are two relatively equal paths. As an example, a paladin with Polearm Master and levels to get Improved Divine Smite is a sight to see. That said, my metric is not whether something else can outpace it, but whether playing it in T3 and 4 and being successful is a fiddly challenge (or one where in a given campaign, you might not even want to try).

Sure.

Duelist Paladin 11 with PAM is 2d6+1d4+21+3d8, for 44 at-will attack damage, with 10 smite/day up to 3rd level (4d8) and 3rd level paladin spells.

The alternative Paladin 6/whispers bard 5 has 12 smite/day up to 4th level (5d8) and 5 whispers-smites (15d6) per short rest and only 2d6+1d4+21 (30.5) at-will attack damage. And 3rd level bard/2nd level paladin spells.

10d8 per LR and 15d6 per SR (45 per LR 52.5 per SR) vs 13.5 per round isn't a clear win or loss. (while 13.5 is more damage over a long adventuring day, most of the damage is going to be inefficiently applied in easier fights, and extra long adventuring days are less common than big fight days due to the scarcity of human attention).

The lore bard version loses the SR smites, and gets back 3rd level Paladin spells (or other stuff if you prefer) and its crazy cutting words.

But, after level 11, the Paladin doesn't go very far. Cleansing Touch, Aura range boost, and 2 subclass features, plus 4 casting levels. And going Paladin 11/Bard X costs you access to Find Greater Steed (which I consider key!).

The bardadin in those levels gets 9 casting levels (up to 7th level spells). If whispers, their bard-smites get very beefy. And they have access to 4 spells picked from any spell list (some of which will grab the missing key Paladin spells - Greater Steed, Holy Weapon say - roughly at or before the pure Paladin gets them).

Like I said, the gap isn't as bad as the other fighty types. The good level 5 Paladin spells and the half-progression smite fuel make up for an otherwise lackluster set of class features to some extent.

[Ralanr]

Yeah, it's frontloaded. Which is a shame because it's defining feature is so powerful that WOTC kind of hampered a lot of stuff you can get in the class.

The amount of damage you shrug off is pretty nuts. But at that cost is of any interesting features. For example, Barbarians get brutal critical three times and reliable talent for strength at 18th level.

I don't see how to better amp barbarian scaling aside from nerfing rage, and I doubt anyone wants that. But they aren't the only martial to have some pretty weak levels in upper tier, take fighter for example. At least fighter gets two action surges at level 17.

[CMCC]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

Doubling up on extra attack is almost always a major mistake. The bladesinger is the only exception to this rule, as it's extra attack feature is secondary to the second clause of that feature.