Building a dragon PC using available RAW

[Greywander]

I know playing as a dragon is a meme in D&D, but I was curious if you could actually build a PC according to the rules in order to mimic a dragon as closely as possible.

Fizban dragonborn are an obvious place to start, giving you access to a breath weapon and damage resistance (sadly not immunity, though chromatic dragonborn can get temporary immunity). After that, one angle you could take is to go Draconic Sorcerer. This gets you your wings, your Frightful Presence, natural armor, and allows you to pick up spells such as Absorb Elements, Alter Self/Shapechange, True Seeing/Detect X, breath alternatives like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Cone of Cold, and so on. Access to spells allows you to fill out some of the more obscure draconic traits, such as using True Seeing to get access to truesight. At some point, we can dip into fighter or paladin for the Blind Fighting style. Sorcadin is a well known build, so we should be fairly strong.

This build seems pretty solid, about the only thing it's missing is unarmed attacks. Even if we could get decent unarmed strikes, e.g. via the Unarmed Fighting style, our best method of using weapon attacks is with Booming Blade and/or Green-Flame Blade, which don't work with unarmed strikes. We're much better off poking with a rapier than trying to fist things, but that doesn't fit the dragon aesthetic. Even if we had a natural weapon from our race, natural weapons don't work with the new version of BB/GFB (it's debatable if they worked with the old version). Similarly, there's not a lot of reason not to use a shield, unless we need a hand free for spellcasting, but a shield doesn't fit the aesthetic. A monk dip might be an alternative, giving us decent unarmed damage and allowing a BA attack, but I don't think it would actually be any better than BB, and we'd lose a level in sorcerer to get it.

While dragonborn is the obvious choice, it's not the only one. We can always refluff a different race to be a dragon, and spells like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Cone of Cold can be acceptable substitutes for a breath weapon. For example, aarakocra gives us flight and a natural weapon. YMMV, but I would allow the SCAG version of BB/GFB to work with natural weapons. There's only a few classes that give at will flight (and, preferably, winged flight), so having it on our race opens up more class options.

Another good option, albeit limited to fire dragons in concept (due to the resistance granted), would be a winged tiefling. Go Dragon Monk and you'll get your unarmed strikes and breath weapons, and eventually blindsight and Frightful Presence, too. You do miss out on things like truesight or the ability to shapechange, though. Alternatively, you could go Sun Soul for a more radiant dragon flavor, between the BA Burning Hands and the radiant Fireball clone you would have your breath weapon alternatives. Sun Soul is considered to be a poor subclass, though, and you miss out on even more draconic abilities.

Beast Barbarian has some potential, but seems overly focused on your unarmed strikes. It seems like we'd end up giving up too much of our other draconic traits, and it would be difficult to use as a dip since raging prevents spellcasting. If you're using spells to get access to things like Alter Self/Shapechange or True Seeing, raging will interfere with that. It's not impossible, it just means you can't use those while raging, which probably means breath alternatives like Fireball wouldn't be an option.

Also worth mentioning is finding a way to dip three levels into Rune Knight, so we can grow to Large. Dragons are supposed to be big, but access to larger sizes is restricted for PCs. Enlarge/Reduce could also work, but it does require concentration. I'm not currently aware of any method of becoming Large or larger on a permanent basis, but maybe that's for the best (otherwise you'd have trouble following your party into tight spaces). I suppose you could abuse potion miscibility, and a Potion of Growth is only uncommon, so a party artificer could crank them out en masse to mix them, so that might actually work. Just remember to use Mage Hand when mixing potions, unless you're tired of having fingers.

Can you think of other builds that would work for this? Is there a possible fix to the sorcerer build that would allow it to fight effectively using unarmed strikes?

[JackPhoenix]

It's cheating, but.... level 1 anything. Find someone able to cast True Polymorph. Congratulations, you actually are a dragon.

[Greywander]

I mean, if that counts then why not cut out the middle man and just hand the player a dragon stat block? The point of this exercise was to try and build a normal character that can be refluffed into a dragon without needing to resort to these sort of shenanigans. Something that most DMs would actually allow at their table without needing to get special permission.

Besides, the image of a dragon character growing into their abilities as they level up is kind of neat. Sure, you could just be handed a dragon stat block, but then you're basically stuck with that stat block forever. You could layer a class on top of that, but that would feel like a dragon with class levels, and not just a dragon. You could progress from one age category to the next, but there'd be a massive jump in power each time (and would be unusual to "age" so quickly unless the campaign is set over a centuries long timespan).

So far, the dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer with a fighter/paladin dip seems to get the closest, it's just missing the rather critical unarmed strikes (and a way to use them with BB/GFB, or otherwise make them effective). A monk dip helps, but doesn't quite get there. I recall something from the DMG giving an example of a player wanting to play an unarmored cleric, and suggesting that the player trade away all their armor proficiencies for Unarmored Defense, so perhaps a similar deal could be reached: trade away all weapon proficiencies for natural weapons and the monk's Martial Arts feature, complete with a scaling Martial Arts die. As a natural weapon, it qualifies to be used with BB/GFB (YMMV on that, though), and if for any reason we don't want to use those, we at least can make the Martial Arts BA attack for a second attack. The damage starts equivalent to a dagger and scales up to be better than a rapier, but isn't compatible with magic weapons.

[Dark.Revenant]

My go-to is Beast Barbarian. As incomplete as it is, you're at least physically strong and tough, which is more fundamental to the idea of a dragon than D&D-isms like blindsight. For race, ideally you'll play a Dragonborn for the breath weapon, but other races can work if you're roleplaying a shapeshifted dragon.

That said...


Fundamentally, playing as a dragon is counter to the classic spirit of Dungeons & Dragons. It's in the name. Those two things—dungeons and dragons—are foes that you must face. It's metaphorical; the dungeon is generally not a literal castle dungeon, but rather an unknown set of challenges and perils for your characters to face upon their quest. The dragon, therefore, is the looming threat (or prize) that draws your characters to that dungeon; it is—or at least owns, guards, or acts as harbinger for—the raison d'être of the adventure. Again, the "dragon" of the story isn't usually a straight-up flying lizard, but the designers go to great lengths to tailor the actual creatures named "dragon" to serve this role.

But other "dragons" have been ceded to the masses already: Orcs and Drow being the most notable. Perhaps someday, even dragons won't be Dragons any longer.

[Kane0]

Fizbans dragonborn dragon sorcerer picming up the dragon hide, dragon fear and gift of the chromatic dragon feats. Then MC into pally i guess?

[CTurbo]

I know this is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from RAW, but I let a player play as a Brass Dragon Wyrmling in a 2 shot adventure once and it didn't break anything. We started at level 3 and ended at level 7. He wanted to play it as a Fighter and I gave him a choice of Champion or Banneret and he chose Banneret as he felt it appropriate for a good dragon. We kept the stat block identical other than he got the Fighter's d10 hit die and Str + Con saving throws. He took Alert as his free starting feat and bumped Str and Con +1 at level 4 and Str +2 at level 6. He did NOT overshadow the other characters despite being a dragon. I'd actually consider letting a player play as a weaker dragon wyrmling again in the future as it really isn't that OP.

Silver, Blue, Gold, or Red may be too powerful unless the other characters also got really high rolled stats.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...rmling#content

[GeneralVryth]

I mean, if that counts then why not cut out the middle man and just hand the player a dragon stat block? The point of this exercise was to try and build a normal character that can be refluffed into a dragon without needing to resort to these sort of shenanigans. Something that most DMs would actually allow at their table without needing to get special permission.

Besides, the image of a dragon character growing into their abilities as they level up is kind of neat. Sure, you could just be handed a dragon stat block, but then you're basically stuck with that stat block forever. You could layer a class on top of that, but that would feel like a dragon with class levels, and not just a dragon. You could progress from one age category to the next, but there'd be a massive jump in power each time (and would be unusual to "age" so quickly unless the campaign is set over a centuries long timespan).

So far, the dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer with a fighter/paladin dip seems to get the closest, it's just missing the rather critical unarmed strikes (and a way to use them with BB/GFB, or otherwise make them effective). A monk dip helps, but doesn't quite get there. I recall something from the DMG giving an example of a player wanting to play an unarmored cleric, and suggesting that the player trade away all their armor proficiencies for Unarmored Defense, so perhaps a similar deal could be reached: trade away all weapon proficiencies for natural weapons and the monk's Martial Arts feature, complete with a scaling Martial Arts die. As a natural weapon, it qualifies to be used with BB/GFB (YMMV on that, though), and if for any reason we don't want to use those, we at least can make the Martial Arts BA attack for a second attack. The damage starts equivalent to a dagger and scales up to be better than a rapier, but isn't compatible with magic weapons.

This is actually very similar to a puzzle I have tried to solve in the past. My situation was trying to recreate a character that was essentially a monk/sorcerer gestalt. The key aspects being a strength based unarmed fighting, combined solid casting abilities, and for specific character in question some kind of way to 1 or 2 particularly powerful turns (even at the cost of long term sustainability).

The answer I first ended on (that still doesn't really excite me), is likely the pieces you are missing for your puzzle. What I did was re-flavor a Warforged Jugegrnaught into essentially a half dragon (that is what the character was), the integrated armor is a nice scaling dragon scales, and you have a build in natural weapon. Use Fighter for two-weapon fighting (off hand attack), and potentially action surge and extra attack. The rest, Sorcerer (or any full caster, Sorcerer being best for you), also remember there is an actual dragon breath spell.

Of course the above solution never really felt ideal to me, a little mish-mashy. I realized what I really wished for was essentially the Sorcerer equivalent of a Bladesigner. If I was making it I would call it Dragon Disciple (taking from the old prestige class name and theme) give it some kind of unarmored defense based on str or str + cha and natural weapons, with maybe something else as the first subclass ability, extra attack at 6 with an option to exchange an attack for a breath weapon (likely at the cost of sorcery points), 14 wings and 18 frightful presence (or something similar). Obviously I never finished statting out the specifics of that homebrew sub-class but it would completely fill the void and could easily be a part of the puzzle for you too (depending on how official you want your answer to be)

[Angelalex242]

This works better at high level play, I think. If the Dragon's gonna be part of the party, make it an adult dragon, and have the dragon fly the rest of the party around. Good dragons have lived a LONG time, and understand the value of having a party of human adventurers on their back. It's like carrying around a mobile weapons platform, and if there's a Paladin in the party, all those Auras help the Dragon too. Then you can send the party against opposing dragons in aerial battles. It takes a while to get the hang of how many dragons the party+dragon can take on, but aerial dragon fights can be fun, at least for a little while. Obviously do this at tier 3...or if they're level 20s, hell, let 'em ride a great wyrm around. It's an epic way to save the world.

[Greywander]

My go-to is Beast Barbarian. As incomplete as it is, you're at least physically strong and tough, which is more fundamental to the idea of a dragon than D&D-isms like blindsight. For race, ideally you'll play a Dragonborn for the breath weapon, but other races can work if you're roleplaying a shapeshifted dragon.

I suppose it depends on what you consider important for the concept. Dragons are indeed hulking brutes, so to be a squishy sorcerer is definitely less than ideal. Barbarian does a pretty good job here. But that's not all dragons are. I'd say the breath weapon and the ability to fly are probably the most iconic abilities of dragons. A gem dragonborn can get you both, but the flight is limited, which might be enough, but isn't ideal.

I guess what I'm saying is that barbarian doesn't really do it for me, but it might for someone else. A Draconic Sorcerer might be a lightweight, but it does do a pretty good job of getting almost everything else dragons are known for. Dragon Monk could be an interesting middle ground, perhaps with some dips. For example, Alter Self is probably an acceptable substitute for a dragon's Change Shape feature; you don't need to go all the way up to Shapechange.

Fundamentally, playing as a dragon is counter to the classic spirit of Dungeons & Dragons.
[...]
Perhaps someday, even dragons won't be Dragons any longer.

As you say, the Dragon as a meta concept, the guardian who needs to be defeated in order to acquire the Dungeon's wealth, already extends to other creatures such as orcs and goblins. If the concept can extend to non-dragon creatures, I don't see why a literal dragon would necessarily need to still fall under that concept. You even admit as much in that last sentence. Also, good dragons do exist in the lore, so we already have dragons who specifically do not exist merely to be slain so you can claim their hoards. Instead, they are wise sages or noble protectors or mysterious oracles, and sometimes even allies in battle. The dragon isn't really tied so heavily to the meta concept of a dungeon guardian any longer, though the imagery is still iconic.

Fizbans dragonborn dragon sorcerer picming up the dragon hide, dragon fear and gift of the chromatic dragon feats. Then MC into pally i guess?

Dragon Hide seems like such a waste when we already have natural armor from Dragon Sorc. Maybe if it stacked somehow...

We also might be somewhat starved for ASIs. As a sorcerer, maxing CHA is important for making our spells more potent. We don't necessarily need to max DEX, but more DEX means more AC. And after all that, the natural weapons provided by Dragon Hide use STR, so we'll want to pump that up, too (though this could be corrected with a monk dip, letting us use DEX). And we can't neglect our CON, either.

My main problem with this is that any scheme to get natural weapons using RAW is ultimately less effective and more costly than simply using a dagger. And yeah, you can't disarm a natural weapon, but that's insignificant compared to what we'd be giving up to get the natural weapon. It's not worth a feat and a monk dip.

I know this is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from RAW, but I let a player play as a Brass Dragon Wyrmling in a 2 shot adventure once and it didn't break anything.

Not what I asked for, but potentially a viable solution. I just looked up the stats for the brass dragon wyrmling and to be honest it looks like I'm reading off a particularly strong race. Even the stat spread looks about right for a 1st level character, though you could also just do regular ability score generation.

I think my issue with this is that while it actually isn't too bad, it's still noticeably stronger than other racial options. It's one thing to ask about using homebrew that you think is balanced, since the idea is that you'll still be on the same level as the other players, but this is asking for something that you know will be stronger than other PCs. Some DMs and tables will be fine with it, others won't. YMMV.

The answer I first ended on (that still doesn't really excite me), is likely the pieces you are missing for your puzzle. What I did was re-flavor a Warforged Jugegrnaught into essentially a half dragon (that is what the character was), the integrated armor is a nice scaling dragon scales, and you have a build in natural weapon. Use Fighter for two-weapon fighting (off hand attack), and potentially action surge and extra attack. The rest, Sorcerer (or any full caster, Sorcerer being best for you), also remember there is an actual dragon breath spell.

Sadly, I don't think WGtE warforged are considered RAW anyway, and to be honest, they did have a couple issues. I was sad to see the subraces get axed, though. But yeah, I guess that would be an option. And while I do think a dragon would probably use STR for their unarmed strikes, and likely should have a decent STR score anyway, this is of course difficult to pull off. We already need CHA for spells, DEX for AC, and CON for HP; adding STR to the mix means playing a character who is spread too thin. What I'd probably do is try to find a way to use DEX for unarmed strikes, then ask the DM for a STR boosting magic item pretty please that might act as an upgrade for later on.

I realized what I really wished for was essentially the Sorcerer equivalent of a Bladesigner. If I was making it I would call it Dragon Disciple (taking from the old prestige class name and theme)

I mean, Draconic Sorcerer isn't that far off. You get natural armor and extra HP, but not really much in the way of weapon attack boosts. Booming Blade helps, the problem is we'd typically be better off casting a spell, so it simply wouldn't get used that often.

If the Dragon's gonna be part of the party, make it an adult dragon, and have the dragon fly the rest of the party around.

This... isn't really relevant to the thread. I'm talking about building a PC that we can fluff as a literal dragon, but mechanically they're still a regular PC, not someone using a dragon stat block.

---

I had a thought occur to me. This is especially relevant for builds using Draconic Sorcerer, but I think this fits for any build. It needs a genielock dip. Why? So we have a portable lair to keep our hoard in. For dragon sorc, match the genie damage type with the dragon ancestry type, and any attack spell you use will not only get the bonus from Genie's Wrath, but also from Elemental Affinity. This would also help buff Booming Blade significantly. The bad news is that you're pretty much limited to fire or cold types, unless a gem dragon ancestry is on the table, in which case thunder is an option, too. You could also petition the DM to allow you to just match the genie damage type to whatever dragon type you chose, even if it isn't normally an option for genielocks.

[GeneralVryth]

Sadly, I don't think WGtE warforged are considered RAW anyway, and to be honest, they did have a couple issues. I was sad to see the subraces get axed, though. But yeah, I guess that would be an option. And while I do think a dragon would probably use STR for their unarmed strikes, and likely should have a decent STR score anyway, this is of course difficult to pull off. We already need CHA for spells, DEX for AC, and CON for HP; adding STR to the mix means playing a character who is spread too thin. What I'd probably do is try to find a way to use DEX for unarmed strikes, then ask the DM for a STR boosting magic item pretty please that might act as an upgrade for later on.

That was the beauty of the Juggernaught with the Integrated Armor (I didn't realize WGtE was that different from the second UA), it had armor that didn't need to heavily (or at all) depend on dex and a natural weapon that didn't either so you could go the str heavy route. The other racial option would be Tortle, much of the same pieces (though not quite as good), arguably a bonus in the natural weapon is slashing damage which is more dragonish. Tortle Dragon Sorc is going to hit most of your Dragon points, though I like 5 levels in a martial class for Extra Attack mixed in to really get that flurry feel.

Another homebrewish idea is giving Draconic Sorcs the Primal Savagery cantrip as a bonus spell, and letting them add their level 6 damage bonus to it. It's not quite the same as a flurry of natural attacks but it gets pretty close and feels right.

[Greywander]

I did mention this in the OP, but Dragon Monk on a flying race would probably do pretty well to represent a dragon, I'm warming up to the idea. You get the unarmed strikes, the unarmored defense, the breath weapon, frightful presence, blindsight, it actually is almost all there. It would also feel very different from a Draconic Sorcerer. I think both of these classes do pretty good job.

The only thing about the monk is that if you can already fly then the 6th level feature, Wings Unfurled, is essentially useless. If I went with the monk, I'd see if I could trade out Wings Unfurled for some sorcerer spells (cast via ki using spell point costs, e.g. 3 ki for a 2nd level spell), especially things like Alter Self and Enlarge/Reduce, and maybe a couple cantrips like Prestidigitation or Control Flames.

[solidork]

This is slightly off topic, but if anyone comes here looking to actually play a dragon we've been using this homebrew supplement in my home games for something like 5 years now. My group has a player who really likes playing dragons, so my DM designed a custom race and class to go with it. It's pay what you want if you're just curious.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/226...on-Adventurers

[CTurbo]

Not what I asked for, but potentially a viable solution. I just looked up the stats for the brass dragon wyrmling and to be honest it looks like I'm reading off a particularly strong race. Even the stat spread looks about right for a 1st level character, though you could also just do regular ability score generation.

I think my issue with this is that while it actually isn't too bad, it's still noticeably stronger than other racial options. It's one thing to ask about using homebrew that you think is balanced, since the idea is that you'll still be on the same level as the other players, but this is asking for something that you know will be stronger than other PCs. Some DMs and tables will be fine with it, others won't. YMMV.

Other than the fact it gets 4 saving throws, the only other thing I think would be too strong about it is the breath weapon recharging on a 5 or 6. It'd have to be dealt with in a similar fashion to the Dragonborn with it recharging on a short or long rest. I actually think the Dragonborn's breath weapon is too weak RAW but that's an argument for another thread.

[Melphizard]

Playing a dragon PC could go many ways but if you let dragons be more powerful in your setting then it opens up a lot more possibilities. For example, let all dragons have the ability to shape change into humanoids. Fizban's customizing dragons rule has added shapechanging as an optional part that you could use; but, it used to be that even an ancient red dragon couldn't by the base stats shapechange.

Could have a dragon PC simply be whatever race but they're shapechanged into a human. Perhaps they developed their shapechanging powers as a wrymling but don't actually remember how to turn back. Dragonborns also work to act as pretend dragons. Custom Race also has the potential to work but lacks a proper way to get the resistance and/or immunity a dragon pc may have. A fix for this may be a character secret like Rime of the Frostmaiden had which let a player potentially be a doppelganger or midwinter child (gave cold resistance).

Funny dragon PC character concept:
There exists a magical item called the circlet of human perfection which reads:

The Circlet of Human Perfection transforms its attuned wearer into an attractive human of average height and weight. The circlet chooses the physical characteristics of the form, such as age, gender, skin color, hair color, and voice. Except for size, the wearer's statistics and racial traits don't change, nor do items worn or carried by the wearer. Removing the circlet ends the effect.

A prankster, be it a wizard or a fey, put this onto the dragon PC's head and used either a curse or sovereign glue to bind it on their head. Doesn't require the PC's attunement but it has become a part of their quest to find a way to remove this circlet and be freed from the powers of the item.

[LudicSavant]

I suppose it depends on what you consider important for the concept. Dragons are indeed hulking brutes, so to be a squishy sorcerer is definitely less than ideal. Barbarian does a pretty good job here. But that's not all dragons are. I'd say the breath weapon and the ability to fly are probably the most iconic abilities of dragons. A gem dragonborn can get you both, but the flight is limited, which might be enough, but isn't ideal.

Hmm. Might be interesting to toss in stuff like "replace an attack with a breath weapon" and "fly while raging" ability onto a Beast Barbarian-esque chassis. I mean, it's not like there isn't room to throw more features on Barbarians in Tier 3+.

[Greywander]

Other than the fact it gets 4 saving throws, the only other thing I think would be too strong about it is the breath weapon recharging on a 5 or 6. It'd have to be dealt with in a similar fashion to the Dragonborn with it recharging on a short or long rest. I actually think the Dragonborn's breath weapon is too weak RAW but that's an argument for another thread.

They also have a 15 foot burrow speed. Not sure what that's worth, but so far there are no PC races with burrow speeds. Swimming and climbing doesn't require a swim or climb speed, and the brass wyrmling also has a fly speed, so it can do all four types of movement.

It also has fire immunity. Like I said, it's not actually that bad, but it is noticeably stronger than existing racial options. It's like a step up from the yuan-ti. Some of the other types of wyrmlings are quite a bit stronger, though.

Playing a dragon PC could go many ways but if you let dragons be more powerful in your setting then it opens up a lot more possibilities. For example, let all dragons have the ability to shape change into humanoids. Fizban's customizing dragons rule has added shapechanging as an optional part that you could use; but, it used to be that even an ancient red dragon couldn't by the base stats shapechange.

If you want shapechanging on your dragon character, Alter Self is probably an acceptable substitute. Some builds, like sorcerer, get easy access to it. Anyone else can get it with a 3 level dip, or you can try bartering away some of your other features with the DM for it. Would be nice if maybe we had more feats like Fey Touched that gave access to a wider variety of 2nd level spells, such as Alter Self.

You could also just say that your character isn't old enough to use that ability yet.

Could have a dragon PC simply be whatever race but they're shapechanged into a human.

You could also just play whatever race and refluff it to be a dragon. Then there's no need to justify why we're not a dragon, because we are. While we can't mechanically be a dragon, it shouldn't be a problem to take the mechanics of an existing race and refluff ourselves to be a dragon. YMMV on that, though. Kind of the goal of this thread was to see how close to that we could get, how close to replicating a dragon using existing race and class features. Turns out, it's pretty darn close, which should make a lot of people happy.

[Sherlockpwns]

I think you essentially have it with a dragon monk.

You could also consider a winged tiefling. You’ll lose the claws, but the race specifically calls out features like scales, sharp claws and fangs, etc. they don’t have a mechanic function like aara, but they do gain resistance to fire if you are planning on being a “red” dragon. In all I think they make better red or blue dragons.

I don’t think the loss of the level 6 ability is important, it’s better to think of it like you got a better version at level 1.

That said if you are not going to level 11+, you can multi class off monk at level 3-5 and potentially pick up sorcerer or potentially even fighter, depending on what you want to be doing. Monk 6-10 adds a few handy monk abilities, but essentially nothing dragony. 11 is pretty huge for your breath, resistances, and fear though. Well worth it if you’re going that way.

[Kane0]

Dragon Hide seems like such a waste when we already have natural armor from Dragon Sorc. Maybe if it stacked somehow...

We also might be somewhat starved for ASIs. As a sorcerer, maxing CHA is important for making our spells more potent. We don't necessarily need to max DEX, but more DEX means more AC. And after all that, the natural weapons provided by Dragon Hide use STR, so we'll want to pump that up, too (though this could be corrected with a monk dip, letting us use DEX). And we can't neglect our CON, either.

My main problem with this is that any scheme to get natural weapons using RAW is ultimately less effective and more costly than simply using a dagger. And yeah, you can't disarm a natural weapon, but that's insignificant compared to what we'd be giving up to get the natural weapon. It's not worth a feat and a monk dip.

Yeah you can probably skip dragon hide seeing as you double up with the scaley AC and dont really need the claws if youre primarily a caster (or going pally and cant smite or bladetrip with them without a nice DM).

The good news is that dragon fear is at least a half feat, though it replacing an attack again doesnt help you much if you spend most of your actions casting spells.

Perhaps just a dip into sorc, or skip it and go paladin instead. Conquest works great with fear breath. Reflavored genielock is another option actually, and pairs nicely with both sorc and pally, giving you free elemental damage plus flight earlier than sorc even if it isnt permanent.

[Greywander]

Hmm. Might be interesting to toss in stuff like "replace an attack with a breath weapon" and "fly while raging" ability onto a Beast Barbarian-esque chassis. I mean, it's not like there isn't room to throw more features on Barbarians in Tier 3+.

Fizban dragonborn can already replace attacks with a breath weapon, so that's already doable. The issue is that it's not possible to get that and flight from your race. You can do one or the other. Though it would be possible to get both via a simple custom race, if it was allowed.

I think you essentially have it with a dragon monk.

You could also consider a winged tiefling. You’ll lose the claws, but the race specifically calls out features like scales, sharp claws and fangs, etc. they don’t have a mechanic function like aara, but they do gain resistance to fire if you are planning on being a “red” dragon. In all I think they make better red or blue dragons.

Yeah, winged tiefling was the plan for the monk build. The monk already gets a breath weapon, so dragonborn is superfluous. The monk doesn't get flight, though, except for the lackluster 6th level feature, so winged tiefling takes care of that. The only reason we needed natural weapons was to qualify for Booming Blade, which we don't have to worry about on a monk.

And yeah, the fire resistance does skew you towards a fire-type dragon (red, gold, or brass). But it occurred to me that you could pick up Infernal Constitution to get resistance to cold and poison as well, giving you 3/5 of the common dragon types. I think this also works well with the monk, since the subclass doesn't narrow down to a specific type of dragon, but does all types at the same time. From a narrative standpoint, this could mean you're not a normal dragon, but perhaps bear some kind of blessing from Tiamat, or perhaps are some kind of descendant of Tiamat's. Or maybe you're the result of a magical experiment, originally a red/gold/brass dragon but then infused with the energy of other chromatic dragons.

I don’t think the loss of the level 6 ability is important, it’s better to think of it like you got a better version at level 1.

True, but if I'm able to pick up a few of the things I'm missing from the concept (Alter Self being the one that sticks out the most), then it doesn't hurt to at least ask the DM. I'd also probably ask to be a CHA-based monk, as I think that fits better with the dragon concept. All dragons seem to have high CHA, and most have it as their highest mental stat. It also adds some interesting potential to Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

Something else that occurred to me is that Diamond Soul can substitute for Legendary Resistance. I wouldn't consider that to be an especially draconic trait, more like a boss trait, with older dragons acting as boss monsters. But hey, I'll take it. It does mean that between Diamond Soul and the higher AC, the monk is more resilient than the sorcerer. HP would be roughly the same, but we'd be taking fewer hits.

The good news is that dragon fear is at least a half feat, though it replacing an attack again doesnt help you much if you spend most of your actions casting spells.

Draconic Sorcerer does get their own version of Frightening Presence in the late game, so Dragon Fear is somewhat redundant. It's not useless, for sure, it's just that you could be getting something else you don't already have instead.

Perhaps just a dip into sorc, or skip it and go paladin instead. Conquest works great with fear breath. Reflavored genielock is another option actually, and pairs nicely with both sorc and pally, giving you free elemental damage plus flight earlier than sorc even if it isnt permanent.

A sorc dip is difficult because we want the wings at 14th level. If we play a winged race, then we want a breath weapon from somewhere, though AoE spells can act as an acceptable substitute in a pinch. A genielock dip seems like a good idea, if for no other reason than to get the portable lair to stash your hoard. The damage bump is also helpful. Not sure how well you could fit the concept with a full genielock, though.

Kind of the big problem with the sorcerer (which extends to the warlock as well) is that dragons aren't usually casters. Sometimes they have a few spells, but they are at most gishes. They get into melee and hit like a truck while tanking hits. It's not impossible, but it's tricky to do that on caster class builds, and it becomes even more difficult to try and do it using unarmed strikes. Without Extra Attack, your best bet is to rely on Booming Blade and/or Green-Flame Blade, but those specifically require a weapon. It's just a lot of hoops to jump through. Monk inverts this by giving you great unarmed fighting ability, but no spellcasting. In the end, I think both builds work well for representing different types of dragons, a caster vs. a brawler, though the sorcerer has a pretty big asterisk next to it to make it work.

TBH, I wonder how build optimization would change if Martial Arts scaled based on character level, rather than monk level. So a 1 level dip can get you those DEX-based d10 unarmed/weapon strikes, with a BA attack. I think it would probably be fine, since the d10 wouldn't kick in until higher levels, and there are other ways of getting BA attacks that have their own benefits. It seems like it would open up some new options, but wouldn't be overpowered. Even if you remove the armor restrictions, a lot of the benefits would still be lost on most martial characters.

[GeneralVryth]

For what it's worth I would really try and avoid Dex based if possible, one of the most consistent things about dragons is them being Str and Cha focused. It just becomes an issue of trying to figure out how to have a decent AC without using Dex. That's why I think there is something to the Tortle Draconic Sorcerer (even if I would rather use UA Warforged). You make a good point about Dragons tend not to rival full casters, that's why I think mixing a martial with the Sorc works well, the biggest downside is the delayed Wings and missing the Frightful Aspect.

I suppose another thought would be if you are already going to ask about switching the Monk to Cha based, why not go all the way and ask for Str + Cha based, I don't think there is any issues with that balance wise (in fact it's probably mechanically worse). It would also open the thought of a little mixing with Barbarian which may feel right.

Another idea if a little bit of house rule is allowed, what about a Dragonborn Eldritch Knight, that is allowed to get the UA Dragon Wings feat (if you already talking about winged races the feat is not a big deal at all)? Combine that with the Dragon Hide feat and the unarmed fighting style and you have a Str prime char that can make lots of unarmed attacks, gets a pseudo Legendary Action in Action Surge, a pseudo Legendary Resistance in Indomitable (though I actually think Indomitable should just be replaced with Legendary Resistance in general), and some lesser magic tricks some the Eldritch Knight. I imagine that will feel the most like the Dragons out of the MM, the only thing it really misses is a fear effect.

[Greywander]

The thing about being DEX based is that we might eventually find a STR-boosting magic item, namely Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant's Strength. The belt in particular could act as an upgrade, allowing us to attain a STR higher than 20, so even on a monk you would still choose to use STR for your attacks. You could almost consider a Belt of Giant's Strength to be the equivalent of a +X weapon for unarmed builds, except the belt requires attunement. That said, finding the belt is no guaranty, and even if you do, it might be better off going to another character who can make better use of it.

You do have some good points, though, and it does make me wonder what other options might exist for competent unarmed builds. The thing is, even the Unarmed Fighting style is still only equivalent to a longsword or rapier, and you can use a shield with those (whereas the fighting style drops to a d6 if you use a shield). Unarmed Fighting is better suited for grappler builds who need to keep their hands free anyway, and want to be able to bring the pain with their hands full of bad guys. That said, a grappler dragon might actually be a good idea, as flying into the air and dropping enemies is a viable tactic.

This inclines me toward Rune Knight, though Eldritch Knight is also a viable alternative. But neither of these get any especially draconic traits. The EK can use spells to approximate a breath weapon, but that's about it. I think part of the issue is that sorcerer and monk are the only classes that have specifically draconic-themed subclasses. Ranger has Drakewarden, but that seems to focus more on having a dragon companion and less on being a dragon yourself. The monk and sorcerer subclasses give us a lot of specific features we'd want, because they're specifically targeting a dragon theme.

I suppose another thought would be if you are already going to ask about switching the Monk to Cha based, why not go all the way and ask for Str + Cha based, I don't think there is any issues with that balance wise (in fact it's probably mechanically worse). It would also open the thought of a little mixing with Barbarian which may feel right.

This is probably easier than trying to add draconic traits to a different class, such as fighter.

Another idea if a little bit of house rule is allowed, what about a Dragonborn Eldritch Knight, that is allowed to get the UA Dragon Wings feat (if you already talking about winged races the feat is not a big deal at all)?

This could also work reasonably well. Instead of Dragon Hide, I'd probably ask to simply trade away all armor proficiencies for Unarmored Defense. There's a precedent for this in the DMG, but using a cleric instead. In fact, maybe I could trade away weapon proficiencies for free Unarmed Fighting style, allowing me to also pick up Blind Fighting without needing to dip or use a feat. That said, fighter does have the benefit of getting extra ASIs, so I could afford to pick up more feats or boost multiple ability scores (e.g. STR, DEX, CON, and CHA).

[Kane0]

Im coming around to the beast barb dragonborn idea, or potentially something like reskinned winged tiefling if the flight is more important than the breath (as long as youre allowed to still take the dragon racial feats to round out your dragon abilities). You will miss out on one or the other though without multiclassing or magic items

Edit: or that UA feat for flight, dont remember it but was mentioned so it must exist

[GeneralVryth]

The thing about being DEX based is that we might eventually find a STR-boosting magic item, namely Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant's Strength. The belt in particular could act as an upgrade, allowing us to attain a STR higher than 20, so even on a monk you would still choose to use STR for your attacks. You could almost consider a Belt of Giant's Strength to be the equivalent of a +X weapon for unarmed builds, except the belt requires attunement. That said, finding the belt is no guaranty, and even if you do, it might be better off going to another character who can make better use of it.

I can see the logic in this, it's just not my cup of tea. I usually approach builds by trying to game out how they would look at levels 3, 6, and 10 (and sometimes 14/15), if it doesn't feel good enough at 3 or 6 (without magic items), or like the character by 10, I really start re-evaluating things.

This could also work reasonably well. Instead of Dragon Hide, I'd probably ask to simply trade away all armor proficiencies for Unarmored Defense. There's a precedent for this in the DMG, but using a cleric instead. In fact, maybe I could trade away weapon proficiencies for free Unarmed Fighting style, allowing me to also pick up Blind Fighting without needing to dip or use a feat. That said, fighter does have the benefit of getting extra ASIs, so I could afford to pick up more feats or boost multiple ability scores (e.g. STR, DEX, CON, and CHA).

If I was your DM, I would certainly allow that (but then I am instinctively permissive when it comes to flavor, and re-flavoring things). It kind of goes to show how Monks can feel pretty weak when their starting class abilities are all about gaining the basic competence that several classes get for free. It's funny the Dragon hide feat basically gives those exact bonuses (arguably a little worse, it's a shame the AC is 13+ Dex instead of Con or Str) and half an ASI. It makes me wonder if you could get most of the way there by level 4 if you could convince a DM to replace the +2 of your starting +2/+1 anywhere with the Dragon Hide feat, and then get the UA Dragon Wings at level 4. At that point using the Dragonborn from Fizban you have everything but a fear aura and you are completely class agnostic. I don't think it's mechanically as good as some of the other ideas here but it does amuse me.