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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Constructive crticism on this character build

    Ok I am currently playing a human 3rd lvl bard, which I wanted to take into a more melee oriented role. Tell me what you think of this build.

    Human Bard6/Fighter4/Spellsword10 (CW)

    Str 18 (+1 at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th lvls)
    Dex 14
    Con 13
    Int 15
    Wis 12
    Cha 18 (+1 at 4th)

    Feats
    H Extra Music (CAv)
    1 Lingering Song (CAv)
    3 Song of the Heart (Eberron)
    6 Battledancer (PHBII)
    F7 Exotic Wep Pro (Bastard Sword)
    F8 Wep Foc (Bastard Sword)
    9 Improved Toughness (CW)
    F10 Wep Spec (Bastard Sword)
    12 Arcane Strike (CW)
    SS12 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (PHBII)
    15 Ironskin Chant (CAv)
    18 Slashing Flurry (PHBII)
    Last edited by kyuubigan; 2007-11-21 at 09:30 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Overlard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    I've always seen the bastard sword as a bad idea. You're spending a feat to get on average, 1 extra point of damage per hit (vs a longsword).

    I normally think melee bards should take advantage of the EWP they've got: the whip. Tripping & disarming (maybe both in the same round) are great tactics, and you've got the Str and BAB to pull it off with that build. I'm not saying build your character around it, but it's worth thinking about. You may not even have to spend the feats on it - you won't provoke most of the time anyway.

    I think you need to take a look at your Con too. That's low for a melee build, no matter how you look at it. It may even be worth dropping your Cha by 2 to raise your Con.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Jannex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    If it were me, I'd probably boost Int and Con at 8th and 12th levels, respectively, because skill points and HP are good, especially with the skill-point hit you'll be taking with your fighter levels (I don't know enough about Spellsword to comment there).

    Is there a particular reason you want to go with a bastard sword?
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TRM's Avatar

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    I usually consider weapon focus and weapon specialization (like the bastard sword) a waste of a feat, unless you need them for a prereq.
    More than 2 levels of fighter is also considered an underoptimized choice. Maybe you could replace the fighter levels with something from ToB (I don't actually know ToB all that well)?? Or drop 2 fighter levels and replace them with something else (2 fighter levels for full BaB and 2 feats).
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lemur's Avatar

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    What books do you have available? Tome of Battle goes well with melee bards. Frostburn also has a good fighty-bard feat.

    You may want to look into War Chanter. Even just a 3 level dip in the class will net you a rather powerful ability when combined with power attack. Speaking of which, I notice you didn't take power attack. Instead of 4 levels of fighter, 1 level of fighter and 3 levels of war chanter sounds like a better deal to me.

    Abjurant Champion (CM) is a pretty good caster/melee prestige class that you should look into if you can.

    Don't bother with Bastard Sword proficiency, or weapon focus and specialization (if you take war chanter, you can take weapon focus in greatsword or longsword or something). Like the other posters have said, they aren't very good uses of feats.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    What books do you have available?
    I have the entire "Complete" series, the three core books, Player's Handbook 2, Races of Stone, Destiny, and Dragon, Draconomicon, and the Psionics Handbook.

    To tell the honest truth, I really don't want to "optimize" him. I had the concept of a powerful melee combatant with a dash of Bard. But you are right, I'll get rid of the bastard sword and try to find some more suitable feats, and I'll try to find something I can replace those two levels of fighter (maybe two more levels of Bard?) I would really like some help with this if it isn't too much trouble.
    Last edited by kyuubigan; 2007-11-21 at 11:04 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    3.5, Pathfinder, Old World of Darkness, Silver Age Sentinels or Tri-Stat, Shadowrun 4th, All Flesh, 40k


    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Abjurant Champion from CMage is much better than spellsword. It increases your casting more. Also, the two primary class features are pretty much useless, as you can allready cast in armor (and the twilight enhancement isn't that expensive) and you won't have any good spells to channel into a melee attack.

    I would go with a bard/abjurant champion/warchanter with a couple of fighter levels for the extra feats (PA is a must have).
    Last edited by BardicDuelist; 2007-11-22 at 03:18 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Yeah, spellsword isn't great for a bard; if you want to wear heavier armor, the Battle Caster feat will do that for you. And bards don't really have particularly good spells to channel through attacks...

    I'm not sure how good Abjurant Champion would be, either—bards don't have a lot of abjuration spells, and they lack Shield, so they can't take advantage of the increased AC.

    Actually, it occurs to me that a plain bard/warchanter (with maybe a fighter level or two thrown in if you need the feats) would probably work well for what you're looking for. It's a pretty fair class, particularly if you have other melee characters or gishes in the party.

    Inspire Toughness is decent at higher levels, but it's Inspire Recklessness, Awe, and Legion that are good. Inspire Legion will let you... and the rest of your party... and any nearby NPC allies... use the best base attack bonus of all of them. Inspire Awe is a pretty powerful area frightening effect. Inspire Recklessness is like Shock Trooper, useable on all attacks rather than just charges.

    The class requires Combat Expertise, so you could go with Improved Trip/Disarm (maybe with a whip, but you might also want a larger weapon), or you could go with Power Attack, a two-handed weapon, and Inspire Recklessness.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2007-11-22 at 03:28 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    To get into Abjurant Champ, take Arcane Disciple: Magic(CD) and Customize Domain(Link)
    Customize Domain Spells:

    1 (any level 0)
    2 Shield
    3 Resist Energy?
    4 Mage Armor, Greater

    And switch your wisdom with your dexterity. You might also want to take a level of Contemplative and Divine Oracle for the bonus domains.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Actually i'd think you'd be looking for something with a bard PrC, preferably one that uses song since you can sing and fight at the same time...Also keep in mind that more than two fighter levels are probably a waste and that you don't get many skill points, which seeing how you're int is a bit low you're not going to have many...so a fighter level limits your ability even more. If you get your hands on tome of battle a white raven discipline swordsage might be what you're looking for. Add a few levels of bard and a bard PrC and you're pretty much done i'd say...maybe 2 levels of fighter for the BAB and the feats...
    "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time." (Good Omens - Terry Pratchett)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by kemmotar View Post
    Actually i'd think you'd be looking for something with a bard PrC, preferably one that uses song since you can sing and fight at the same time...Also keep in mind that more than two fighter levels are probably a waste and that you don't get many skill points, which seeing how you're int is a bit low you're not going to have many...so a fighter level limits your ability even more. If you get your hands on tome of battle a white raven discipline swordsage might be what you're looking for. Add a few levels of bard and a bard PrC and you're pretty much done i'd say...maybe 2 levels of fighter for the BAB and the feats...
    Now see, if I could find a bard PrC with a fighter's bab, I would gladly take it, but the only ones I know of are either underpowered (Warchanter) or have INSANE requirements (Folchurian? Lyrist). And to the rest of you, the only reason I chose the Spellsword PrC is because the prerequisites were easy for this character to meet. It also provides me with excellant fort and will saves, and also grants me a bonus fighter feat at its second level. Plus at 10th lvl, I can channel two spells at once (imagine shout with dissonant chord). But like I said I would gladly replace it with a similar PrC, but I just can't find anything that's suitable.

    Edit

    I have considered going straight bard and trying to work with what it provides. If you have any feat suggestions, I am all ears.
    Last edited by kyuubigan; 2007-11-22 at 07:59 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannex View Post
    Is there a particular reason you want to go with a bastard sword?
    I use a shield in combat, and wanted to do more damage, so there you go. Right now (I'm still at 3rd lvl) I use a +1 longsword, and-wow, the Geomancer from Complete Divine might be a viable option if I take levels in a divine casting class. Maybe paladin, because there is a feat in Complete Adventurer that lets me multiclass freely between bard and paladin and frees me from the non-lawful alignment restriction the bard imposes.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    3.5, Pathfinder, Old World of Darkness, Silver Age Sentinels or Tri-Stat, Shadowrun 4th, All Flesh, 40k


    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    For straight battlebard, I suggest getting a harmonizing crystal echoblade from the Magic Item compendium. It's a +1 Longsword that does extra sonic damage equal to half your bard level if you are singing while you fight with it, and harmonizing makes it give you +2 to your perform (sing) checks and allows the item to continue the song for you for up to 10 rounds if you stop singing to cast a spell. Grab Snowflake Wardance (+CHA to attack if you move, its in frostburn and synergizes well with battle dancer), Song of the Heart (and the spell compendium's inspirational boost for a total +2 bonus to inspire), arcane strike, yadda yadda. War Chanter isn't all that bad really, but a straight bard can handle this, just use your spells intelligently and don't be shy about buffing.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by ocato View Post
    For straight battlebard, I suggest getting a harmonizing crystal echoblade from the Magic Item compendium. It's a +1 Longsword that does extra sonic damage equal to half your bard level if you are singing while you fight with it, and harmonizing makes it give you +2 to your perform (sing) checks and allows the item to continue the song for you for up to 10 rounds if you stop singing to cast a spell. Grab Snowflake Wardance (+CHA to attack if you move, its in frostburn and synergizes well with battle dancer), Song of the Heart (and the spell compendium's inspirational boost for a total +2 bonus to inspire), arcane strike, yadda yadda. War Chanter isn't all that bad really, but a straight bard can handle this, just use your spells intelligently and don't be shy about buffing.
    I already have lingering song, so the harmonizing sword won't do much good unless it stacks, in which case it's a must have. And with what I got right now I can get my inspire courage bonus up to +4. And Snowflake Wardance sounds better by itself because it probably doesn't stack with the bonus from Battle Dancer. What I really need is a way to increase my AC, and if not that than my Hit Points, because both are relatively dismal right now.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuubigan
    Now see, if I could find a bard PrC with a fighter's bab, I would gladly take it, but the only ones I know of are either underpowered (Warchanter)...
    You're opposed to "underpowered" class choices, yet you're taking a Bard into Spellsword... with four Fighter levels... the EWP feat (For something that is not a Spiked Chain)... And the Weapon Focus chain...

    Something is awry.
    Last edited by Temp; 2007-11-22 at 10:51 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuubigan View Post
    I already have lingering song, so the harmonizing sword won't do much good unless it stacks, in which case it's a must have. And with what I got right now I can get my inspire courage bonus up to +4. And Snowflake Wardance sounds better by itself because it probably doesn't stack with the bonus from Battle Dancer. What I really need is a way to increase my AC, and if not that than my Hit Points, because both are relatively dismal right now.
    Melodic Casting might serve you better than Lingering Song. My bard never stops singing throughout an entire combat even though her primary tactic is casting Miser's Envy at anything and everything, and lets you ignore concentration as the skill, too. Can't see any reason you couldn't use Battle Dancer in conjunction with Snowflake Wardance, though.

    How're you up to +4 on your inspire courage already? Song of the Heart is +1, Inspirational Boost is +1, and +1 from your level. Where's that extra +1 coming from?

    When it comes to AC, you're almost certainly waiting for loot to get that up. I don't know if Spellsword uses INT for anything, but if not then you might want to consider switching it for CON to get the extra HP. A +1 stat boosting item will give you an extra HP per level for 1000 gp, and Improved Toughness will do it for a feat.
    de·fen·es·tra·tion (dē-fĕn'ĭ-strā'shən)
    n.

    An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.

    [From DE– + Latin fenestra, window.]

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by nerulean View Post
    How're you up to +4 on your inspire courage already? Song of the Heart is +1, Inspirational Boost is +1, and +1 from your level. Where's that extra +1 coming from?
    That comes from the masterwork horn from Complete Adventurer. And I'm probably going to go straight Bard from this point, seeing as I'm already at level three, instead of going into any prestige classes. Improved Toughness is probably going to be the next feat I take, and I'll bump my Con up to 14 next level. And what is Miser's Envy?
    Last edited by kyuubigan; 2007-11-22 at 10:32 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    If you want to channel spells as a Bard, may I recommend a variant of Bard 7/Duskblade 3/Sublime Chord 10?

    Prestige class beyond that as you like, but it's a much stronger central build.

    Take Power Attack in place of the entire Weapon Focus feat chain (including EWP; just use a longsword or zweihander), Shift Arcane Strike up to your level 9 slot and take Battlecaster (CAr) to cast in heavier armor (at level 1 even). You won't need Extra Music with the extra Bard/SC levels.

    The result will be much more effective (and easy to play) than your current build, though its concepts will remain the same.

    Yes, you lose Base Attack. The thing is: that doesn't matter. If you're channeling spells, you aren't full attacking anyway.

    [edit:]Wait... what spells do you even intend to channel?

    And if you aren't channeling spells, why take Spellsword at all? Battlecaster covers armor, Eldrich Knight has better casting and the same bonus feat, Abjurant Champion has better hit points [and with 3 levels of Lyric Thaumaturge, better AC] and Bard has better Music, Spellcasting and skills.
    Last edited by Temp; 2007-11-23 at 12:05 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Miser's Envy, from the Spell Compendium, is my favourite bard spell ever. Make one opponent attack another for his sword.
    de·fen·es·tra·tion (dē-fĕn'ĭ-strā'shən)
    n.

    An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.

    [From DE– + Latin fenestra, window.]

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Constructive crticism on this character build

    Quote Originally Posted by nerulean View Post
    Miser's Envy, from the Spell Compendium, is my favourite bard spell ever. Make one opponent attack another for his sword.
    O_O...nice
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Systems I'm familiar with (or at least played):
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    3.5, Pathfinder, Old World of Darkness, Silver Age Sentinels or Tri-Stat, Shadowrun 4th, All Flesh, 40k


    My sister: What's in the cave?
    DM: There's cave.
    Me: How big is the cave?
    Dm: There's lots of cave inside this cave.

    My Naruto Pathfinder Homebrew

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