Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes

[Zevox]

We actually got another trailer today. It's called the "Awakened Rivals" trailer, though really it feels like a big final trailer for the game, and has some big news. Turns out that the Ashen Wolves are, in fact, playable, and not DLC! Though after seeing how the game highlights all of the other houses right after introducing them, I think the three houses + Ashen Wolves + Byleth and Shez might be our entire playable roster, and the Church/faculty characters won't be playable initially. Though we do see several Church characters, including Setheth, Flayn, Shamir, and Rhea in her... let's just say "war clothes" to avoid needing to include a spoiler block, so maybe they'll drop a surprise "other playable characters" trailer on us in a week or so and I'll just turn out to be being pessimistic. Though at this point, it doesn't feel much like pessimism when we've already got almost every playable character from Three Houses, including most of the DLC ones.

We also get to hear (female) Byleth actually voice-acted in this trailer, since she's no longer stuck in "silent protagonist" mode! And neither is Shez, as it turns out! Thumbs up for that from me. Plenty of implications you might pull from the dialogue with Shez's mysterious companion and Sothis, too, though still vague enough to make it unclear exactly what's up.

Weirdly, tea parties are in this game. Of all the elements of Three Houses that could've been included, I would not have called that one.

And the big news: there is a demo, which is out now. Apparently it will let you play the first four chapters (however long that is) in all three routes, and save data can carry over to the full game. I am deliberately making myself not play it, personally. I do not want to get into it, hit that chapter four wall, and then have to wait another two and a half weeks to go any further; I think I'll much prefer waiting and get the whole experience all at once. But damn, is it tempting.

[Mando Knight]

The title of the Japanese version of the trailer indicates that it is the final one before release, but the demo has playable characters that weren't showcased.

As for the demo:

Spoiler: Characters

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Besides the rumored Monica, Scarlet Blaze route also gets Jeritza and Manuela for the 4th chapter. Azure Gleam gets Rodrigue, and Golden Wildfire recruits Shamir.

Besides them, returning characters like Hanneman and Gilbert have been seen as "being assigned a different task" in chapter 4, as well as a few more that were mentioned or seen but not recruitable in Three Houses like Count Bergliez and Ludislava. Seteth is an early boss encounter in Scarlet Blaze, but may be recruited in another route.

Spoiler: Story So Far

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As was implied by earlier trailers, Shez stumbles into the Kostas plot instead of Byleth and Jeralt (Chapter 1), so Alois "invites" you to the monastery for payment (which turns into Rhea "offering" that you join as a student in the Officer's Academy). Without Byleth to become the third professor, Jeritza is tapped instead to teach whichever house you pick to join. Edelgard decides to flip the script this time because of that, and has Jeritza turn a bandit raid into kicking over the rock the Agarthans are slithering under, saving Monica in the process (Chapter 2).

After kicking Edelgard's would-be puppeteers in the shin, everyone's timetable is accelerated and the next mission (Chapter 3) is helping your house leader ascend to their respective throne, followed by a two year timeskip leading into Chapter 4. Here again Edelgard declares war on the Central Church, but Dimitri and Claude now also have already established their own power bases rather than being caught flatfooted as students besieged by a surprise attack.

Spoiler: Gameplay

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It's definitely a Musou game. Move sets are class based (modified by the equipped weapon, in case of multiple proficiencies within that class), mostly following the same class sets as in Three Houses, plus some unique classes for Shez and the lords (only Basic and Intermediate classes are available in the demo). Each character also has a set of unique modifier skills to differentiate themselves even within the same class (Shez has a teleport-dash, Ashe and Bernie have unique moves to create space for the Archer moveset's charge shot, the lords add elemental damage to their attacks, etc.), and can be further customized with additional skill and Combat Art unlocks.

The weapon triangle is actually more prominent here than in Three Houses in that it even exists without pursuing certain skills, so there is an element of training and deploying characters with different weapon proficiencies to match the needs of a given map. Tome-wielding classes use magical attack combos (and mage-leaning characters usually have a related unique skill), but the usual named spells like Fire, Heal, and Nosferatu use Combat Art slots. Combat Arts (including spells) seem to be the only thing that directly interacts with the Weapon Durability stat, which is restored after every battle and also has an item pickup to refresh it mid-battle. Like in Three Houses, the Combat Arts offer an additional way to quickly pull out a strong attack or throw in extra effects to complement the character's moves or counter a given enemy type.

As for the weapons themselves, both Heroes' Relics and Sacred Weapons return as expected, with some characters picking up theirs beginning in chapter 4 (Edelgard is using a new Sacred Weapon instead of Aymr). Unlike in Three Houses, the full abilities of various special weapons aren't fully unlocked right away, and the means to improve your equipment beyond finding new ones isn't in the demo. Shez's mysterious Relic-like weapon isn't even an equipped item at this point, either, it's just a part of the character's unique class.

[GloatingSwine]

First reviews are starting to come out and all seem to be solidly positive. Lots of content with plenty of side missions and incentive to do all three routes, solid Musou gameplay, better framerate than Age of Calamity.

[Rising Phoenix]

Picked up my pre-order today.

Doing Blue Lions first.

The story is actually better imo then the main game... Though that may be due to me now knowing a lot more about the world and circumstances to make sense of it all. The game definitely assumes you do.

Character development is terrific. Supports are sparse but well written.

Combat is ok? Seems that assassin is the one that feels the smoothest and archer the most painful. Though I may be playing the later wrong. Brigand is a lot of fun and has a genuine angry feel to it.
I still don't understand how some character get elemental attacks.

[Rodin]

My early* review as a non-Musou player is that the game is pretty great. The classes feel satisfyingly different thus far and my biggest concern is nonexistent.

What I remember from playing Dynasty Warriors 2 wayyyyy back is that you had to run around the battlefield looking after your allies and objectives rather than actually pushing to win the fight. That doesn't happen, because you can swap characters at any time. You can station people defensively and they will hold out until reinforcements arrive. You can tell a couple of characters to go take a stronghold and they'll do it unassisted. If anyone does get in trouble, you jump in their body and take care of the situation. The flow feels more like a singleplayer MOBA than anything else.

The story is separate from Three Houses, but I wouldn't classify it as better. It is thus far much, much simpler than the plot of Three Houses, and the assumed knowledge from Three Houses is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It simply would not work if you hadn't played Three Houses to begin with.

That said, the story is solid, and they nailed the characters. For the Japanese at least they've got all the original VAs back and the character writing is solid. The new avatar character fits in well, and refreshingly isn't a god-tier presence like Robin/Corrin/Byleth. I'm doing Golden Deer, and so far Claude is getting the bulk of the credit for the strategy and battle tactics and the Avatar is merely a respected ally.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed.


*5 chapters in

[Zevox]

I did not have any time to play yesterday, and had less today than I'd have liked, but I did pick the game up and have gotten started on it. Just four chapters in so far, and mostly so good. It's very nice to see these characters again in a new(-ish) story, and as expected of a Warriors spin-off, feels good to play at a basic level. I also like this trend of these spin-offs carrying over more from the games they're based on, rather than being mostly the characters from the property they're based on it a Warriors game. Persona 5 Strikers, Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity, and now this all benefit from that I'd say. Especially Persona and this, being based on much more story-focused series. This really is feeling a lot like they just took Three Houses and made its combat and stages a Warriors-style action game. Well, aside from the lack of spending weeks teaching students, but there's a story reason that's not a thing, so fair enough.

I am, unfortunately, feeling a tad iffy on the class system, though. It's cool that every class from Three Houses (aside from the DLC ones? Or do those unlock once you recruit the Ashen Wolves, maybe?) is accounted for, but I am, sadly, not a huge fan of the fact that the only things that will differentiate characters in the same class will be basically special moves (Combat Arts/Spells) and personal abilities (some of which are a lot more meaningful than others - Bernadetta's special ice move is a lot more impactful than, say, Ferdinand getting a buff for defeating an enemy commander). And I can already tell that some class lines have individual classes be very similar - taking Caspar from Fighter to Brigand basically is just an upgrade, he gets some better moves, but a lot of moves remain the same as well. Which, granted, that's what they are in the original game, but still, I'd prefer characters to each have their own play style, personally. At least Shez and the Lords get unique classes. (Also, if they were going to do it this way, could they at least have ditched the gender-locking? I'm so disappointed that the Brawler and Dark Mage lines are still male-only...)

Story stuff is interesting so far, to be sure. I like that Shez is just recruited as a student at the academy, rather than made a teacher like Byleth was - and I was quite surprised when she said that Hanneman had found she had no Crest, given her connection with the weird guy whose name I'm still learning that seems extremely reminiscent of Byleth's with Sothis. As you can probably guess from the characters I referenced above, I'm playing Black Eagles first (figure I'll do the same order I did the Houses in for the original game, Black Eagles, then Golden Deer, then Blue Lions), so...

Spoiler: Black Eagles

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we quickly learned that Monica is this game is definitely the real one, since you actually fight Kronya while rescuing her, which is neat. Because of the rescue Edelgard was able to move against the Agarthans much earlier than in the main timeline, while getting the Church to help her do so, which is an interesting twist. Very much implies that it was merely a matter of opportunity presenting itself more in the reverse direction that caused her to go after the Church with the Agarthans' support in the original game. Though unfortunately it seems she ends up too busy consolidating power in the Empire after throwing them out and preparing for the war with the Church to track them down after Thales gets away, which I'm sure will come back to bite her.

I am kind of curious about the change where she re-institutes the Southern Church, though. Based on the original game, she genuinely does not believe in the Goddess at all, and is happy to throw the whole religion out the window once Rhea and the Central Church are overthrown. Could just be a strategic move and she intends to abolish the Southern Church once she accomplishes her goal I suppose, but it seems like it might be hard to do that after setting the Southern Church up as the alternative to the Central one for the Empire. Or maybe she feels that keeping a religion she believes to be false around is fine as long as it's loyal to the Empire rather than a regional power in its own right pulling the strings of the continent and controlled by a zealot like Rhea, but that still doesn't feel entirely right to me, since then why wouldn't she do that in the main timeline? My fear at the moment is that her motives there will go unexplained, and it may just be a bizarre story choice they made for little reason, but it's early (I'm literally only one mission past the prologue), so we'll see.

I do also find it kind of weird that Shez didn't go chasing after Byleth during the two-year time skip, despite how focused she was on it at the start of the game. No explanation for that one, either.

Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

Finally: thank heavens for Shez getting to be voice acted! It makes her feel like so much more of an actual character than Byleth did in Three Houses. I hope this is a sign that they'll do that with the protagonist of the next main Fire Emblem game - though since this is a spin-off developed without Intelligent Systems being too involved, I don't know if there's any real likelihood that'll be the case.

[Rodin]

I am, unfortunately, feeling a tad iffy on the class system, though. It's cool that every class from Three Houses (aside from the DLC ones? Or do those unlock once you recruit the Ashen Wolves, maybe?) is accounted for, but I am, sadly, not a huge fan of the fact that the only things that will differentiate characters in the same class will be basically special moves (Combat Arts/Spells) and personal abilities (some of which are a lot more meaningful than others - Bernadetta's special ice move is a lot more impactful than, say, Ferdinand getting a buff for defeating an enemy commander). And I can already tell that some class lines have individual classes be very similar - taking Caspar from Fighter to Brigand basically is just an upgrade, he gets some better moves, but a lot of moves remain the same as well. Which, granted, that's what they are in the original game, but still, I'd prefer characters to each have their own play style, personally. At least Shez and the Lords get unique classes. (Also, if they were going to do it this way, could they at least have ditched the gender-locking? I'm so disappointed that the Brawler and Dark Mage lines are still male-only...)

I didn't get annoyed by this because it felt rather inevitable. You have a lot of characters - more than 30, I'm pretty sure. 8 for each of the three classes gets us to 24, Ashen Wolves gets us to 28, then Shez and Shamire hit 30. I'd be very surprised if characters like Catherine and Flayn don't show up later too.

Then you have 36 classes before you consider the unique character-based ones. Were they going to do 1080+ different movesets?

There's enough different classes that you can keep most everyone in different movesets, and the special moves make the class feel personalized. That's good enough for me.

Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

It pulls Byleth's name from your Three Houses save file. Mine was Byleth because I never change the name, but my friend had his own name in there and that's what it suggested.

[Razade]

Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

There is carry over data from Fire Emblem: Three Houses and Fire Emblem Warriors. Lots of cash, smithing stones (which up to where I'm at I can't use?) and Owl Feathers (which I also can't use yet)

[Rising Phoenix]

Blue Lions

Spoiler

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Made it to the second time skip. Yes, there is a second time skip.

Holy shivers is the story good. Better then the original. A lot of our favorite characters get a lot of development and screen time. Especially Sylvain, Felix and Ingrid.

There's a lot to do as well in the camp which is nice.

However, I am starting to get fatigue from the musou gameplay. Everyone feels the same, particularly as the game encourages you to grab as many class skills as you can. There's a desperate need for more archer, pugilist, and mage classes and it's a depressing omitance that apart from trickster the other three dlc classses were not included. I do not expect everyone to have a different moveset, but more movesets are needed.

The actual story chapters themselves are...perfect mesh of FE and Musou though. You get some great storytelling accompanied with good music and decent gameplay. You actually need to pause and check the objectives on hard at the very least, otherwise you will lose very quickly.

[Zevox]

I didn't get annoyed by this because it felt rather inevitable. You have a lot of characters - more than 30, I'm pretty sure. 8 for each of the three classes gets us to 24, Ashen Wolves gets us to 28, then Shez and Shamire hit 30. I'd be very surprised if characters like Catherine and Flayn don't show up later too.

Then you have 36 classes before you consider the unique character-based ones. Were they going to do 1080+ different movesets?

There's enough different classes that you can keep most everyone in different movesets, and the special moves make the class feel personalized. That's good enough for me.

I obviously didn't expect fully individualized movesets after we learned there was a class system, but I was at least hoping that each class would feel notably different, even from those in its own "tree." And I'd personally be happy to accept fewer characters if it got us each one having a fully individualized moveset. And I do feel that if they were going to do it this way they could have put more effort into giving characters special abilities that give them a more distinct individual feel, like Shez's teleport or Bernie's ice field, rather than them mostly being passive circumstantial buffs.

And again, losing the gender-locking. When classes determine your moveset in an action game, it sucks that much more that all of the game's women can't take the Brawler line, or the male mages won't get Gremory.

It pulls Byleth's name from your Three Houses save file. Mine was Byleth because I never change the name, but my friend had his own name in there and that's what it suggested.

There is carry over data from Fire Emblem: Three Houses and Fire Emblem Warriors. Lots of cash, smithing stones (which up to where I'm at I can't use?) and Owl Feathers (which I also can't use yet)

Ah, okay, I did use Riley as the name for my last run through Three Houses, so that makes sense. I'm surprised it didn't say anything about importing the name when it did that, though - that's why I thought it was a new default. I know about the option to get bonus items based on having saves from the previous games, I've already used that, but it's completely separate from the character creation process.

[Maryring]

I've been playing Golden Deer and I'm... I guess about halfway through? About to get my first Master class characters at least. But anyway.

I wholly agree that the story is excellent. It feels a lot more... I don't know. Serious? Weighty? You get a much better feel of Claude's scheming or Edelgard's ambitions. The world feels a lot more like a play of ambitions between powerful lords. And while there may be fewer supports, the supports are well written rather than a constant string of "make fun of Bernadetta's crippling shyness". I just wish that, if they're okay with having support levels without conversation, that we could have more B level supports, if not A.

Gameplaywise, archers could do with a little speed boost in the execution of their moves, and some better strong moves, and the mage line needs more area and omph for their class skill. And of course, brawlers for girls (with Dark Bishop becoming a male equivalent to Gremory, that's the only thing huge I feel they really should add, rather than what I want).

All in all, it's an enjoyable game.

[Zevox]

I believe I'm probably around a halfway point by now myself - chapter 8, finally digging into advanced classes. Game's been quite good for sure. Though I almost feel silly recruiting everyone I can, when my characters keep falling behind the level curve even with me sticking the core ten characters of my house. Favorite classes so far have been the Thief/Assassin, Flerugal (Shez's unique class), Armored Lord (Edelgard's unique class), and Mage/Dark Mage (though I'm disappointed that Dark Mage still keeps several normal Mage heavy attacks...). Though everything feels like it works pretty well - nothing's as awkward for me to use as Frederick/Xander's mounted movesets or Tiki in the first FE Warriors, for example.

I am mildly frustrated by the "excursion" thing though - I have yet to manage three successes in conversation there. In comparison to the tea parties of Three Houses, the responses that people react positively to don't feel nearly as intuitive.

I wholly agree that the story is excellent. It feels a lot more... I don't know. Serious? Weighty? You get a much better feel of Claude's scheming or Edelgard's ambitions. The world feels a lot more like a play of ambitions between powerful lords.

That probably has to do with the fact that basically the whole story is about the war. The prologue is just a couple of chapters, and even that jumps right into major elements of the games' conflicts (or at least, it does in the Black Eagles' route), and everything thereafter is like the post-time skip portion of Three Houses, but more detailed. Having Shez be voice acted also allows them to actually talk with the Lords (again, or at least Edelgard, since I haven't seen the other two routes at all yet) about some of the serious issues that the conflict involves, as opposed to Byleth's talks with them, which were more monologues since they minimized moments where Byleth needed to even be implied to speak.

But yeah, in general, the writing has been strong. Which is not only great to see for this game, but also gives me a little hope that Three Houses wasn't a lightning-in-a-bottle situation that future Fire Emblem games will never recapture, which it very much felt like it might be before, given how far above the series' usual writing quality it was.

Gameplaywise, archers could do with a little speed boost in the execution of their moves, and some better strong moves, and the mage line needs more area and omph for their class skill. And of course, brawlers for girls (with Dark Bishop becoming a male equivalent to Gremory, that's the only thing huge I feel they really should add, rather than what I want).

Archers have seemed fine to me - maybe they could do with speeding up some of their heavy attacks (mostly the arrow rain), but I've otherwise had no issue with them. And Mages seem just really good. Priests, a little less so, but eh, they are supposed to be the healers. Granted there's less use for healing in this game than in a normal Fire Emblem, but still, makes sense why they're not as much an offensive dynamo as Mages.

Not having gotten to Master classes yet I'm not so sure about Dark Bishop as a "male equivalent to Gremory." Seems odd for a Dark Magic class to be the pinnacle of the Mage tree for men when women get a class that blends both elemental and faith magic. But yeah, the women lacking access to the Brawler line sucks.

[GloatingSwine]

I am mildly frustrated by the "excursion" thing though - I have yet to manage three successes in conversation there. In comparison to the tea parties of Three Houses, the responses that people react positively to don't feel nearly as intuitive.

Yeah, quite a lot of the time there are answers which feel like syonyms but one of them is wrong.

Except Caspar because he's got rocks where his brain should be so you can predict the answers easily.

As for class variety, the advanced versions of classes are secretly the old extended combos of Warriors past. eg. Archer only has C1-C4 but Sniper has C5 & C6 as well. I expect things like Falcon Knight/Pegasus Knight are the same.

Plus some *are* different. Swordmaster is a completely different moveset to Myrmidon.

(Astra will probably be somewhere, if your moveset isn't fast enough find and equip it).

[Zevox]

As for class variety, the advanced versions of classes are secretly the old extended combos of Warriors past. eg. Archer only has C1-C4 but Sniper has C5 & C6 as well. I expect things like Falcon Knight/Pegasus Knight are the same.

Yeah, that's basically how the class system is working in this one, somewhat sadly.

Plus some *are* different. Swordmaster is a completely different moveset to Myrmidon.

You mean Mercenary, not Myrmidon. Otherwise, true, but that's the only example of that (at least unless some Master classes are like that). Everything else is a direct continuation of its previous class line's abilities, aside from the four basic classes. Though even most of those have direct continuity with one of the lines they lead into: Myrmidon -> Mercenary, Fighter -> Brigand, and Monk -> Priest. Only Soldier is completely disconnected, and that's because its intermediate+ classes are all mounted (though I won't be surprised in the least if Dimitri's special classes are basically an extension of it, since those were unmounted spearman classes).

(Astra will probably be somewhere, if your moveset isn't fast enough find and equip it).

Astra is a combat arte now, not a passive ability like it was in the first FE Warriors.

[Maryring]

Oh I'm talking specifically about the Class skill for Mages. You know, where you press X and fire of a stream of small orbs of energy. The attack chain and strong attack isn't bad. It's just that one particular move that feels weak. And while Gremory and Dark Bishop play quite differently (and they're both distinct from Mage/Priest), at least you can field both male and female units against archers. Whereas if you want to have an advantage against tomes, you throw out half your roster.

Not that I don't think it's pointless. I want Gremory Linhardt and Dark Bishop Lysithea as much as everyone else.

But speaking of Master classes, those so far feel very distinct from their Advanced variants. Bow Knight is so much fun. And with dismount, I can grab the Sniper moveset anytime I need in combat. Similarly, the Cavalier line can turn into Soldier, and Wyvern Lord can turn into Warrior. The only thing I dislike about the Master classes I've played thus far is Gremory. And there, it's only the dodge. For some inexplicable reason, the Gremory dodge has a drastically smaller dodge range than other classes. Sure, Marianne deletes enemy Fortress Knights twice her level by sneezing in their direction, but that dodge range still feels like it might be a mistake of some kind.

[Rising Phoenix]

Ok I am probably two thirds of the way in (I think anyway)- Blue Lions..okay okay Azure Gleam.

The writing is still fantastic. I've recruited a bunch of people including Catherine and boy oh boy does she pack a punch. Her passive and combat arts make her probably the most fun of the 'default' swordmasters to play thus far. A shame that she only has...three supports.

I've also recruited Yuri and he's also a lot of fun to play as. He also gets some fantastic supports.

Speaking about units being more or less the same. Yes that it is true, but the way the game differentiates them further is via their combat arts, some of them appear to be unique to that specific unit. Combine this with their crest and unique skills and voila everyone plays different. (you can also teach these unique skills to other units as well. But it appears to be rather limited).

Also about those hybrid master classes at the end of the tech tree? They can use tome combat arts in addition to their equipped weapon. E.g. you can take Shez through the mage tree and any combat arts he learns through there he can use in his final signature class.

Finally I am playing on hard, I've had a couple of restarts, but the game really whooped my arse in the main mission of chapter 10. There were some nail biting moments were I met main mission objectives by the skin of my teeth and that was after six restarts? I was pleasantly surprised. You really have to pause the games and issue orders to your other units if you want to meet them. This adds to the strategy/musou hybrid feel of the game even further.

[Razade]

You really have to pause the games and issue orders to your other units if you want to meet them. This adds to the strategy/musou hybrid feel of the game even further.

I'm on normal and this is still something I actually feel is worthwhile. I got through Age of Calamity without having to do it at all. I don't think I could in this game and I honestly love it. The controls are a little janky overall, when it comes to managing and changing everyone at first but it feels pretty good once you've figured it all out. Countering weaknesses and strengths in unit choice does make it feel a bit more strategic, and more Fire Emblem-y for sure.

[Maryring]

Okay so.

Spoiler: General Spoiler

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Whomever wrote Byleth deserves all the praise. Byleth's personality was a lot of "show, don't tell" in 3H. No longer so in this game. It's a real shame that none of her supports except Jeralt and Sezh seems to have any actual conversation though.

[Zevox]

Okay, I finished part 1 of Black Eagles/Scarlet Blaze, which ends after completing chapter 9. And woah, it threw an unexpected twist at me at the start of part 2:

Spoiler

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The Empire and Alliance form a pact to work together to end the war and bring peace to Fodlan! While the war is basically at a stalemate, no less, not because the Alliance is in danger of being overrun or anything.

Just, wow. Don't get me wrong, as a story development it makes total sense, given Edelgard's objectives and the fact that Claude would sympathize with them; plus if you recruit everyone you can then Lorenz is now the head of House Gloucestre and has come over to working for the Empire, and Lysithea has also joined up and is the sole heir of House Ordelia, so at this point there's significant ties between the two nations there. But I never imagined they'd actually have something like that happen in this game, given everyone else treated Edelgard and the Empire 100% as the party that was in the wrong in the war in the first game. Such a pact between the Kingdom and Alliance would've been much less surprising.

It's also rather nice for putting to rest one of the weirder arguments I saw some people put forth to paint Edelgard as a pure villain: that she just wanted to conquer all of Fodlan and unite it under the Empire's rule again. It never tracked with how Three Houses presented her intentions, but in this game's history especially, it's very obviously not the case. She straight-up never attacks the Alliance*, only the Church and, once they take the Church's side, Kingdom, and then forges this pact with Claude less than a year into the war.

*The nobles who control the Great Bridge let her army pass on the way to Garreg Mach at the start of the war, and the only clashes you have with the Alliance in part 1 are when those same nobles betray you and try to take out the rear guard she'd left to cover their flank in case the Alliance came after them, and you need come to the rescue.

Also, on a side note, I believe I have the answer to my earlier question of why Edelgard wouldn't have restored the Southern Church in the original game if she'd intended to do so as part of her plan, even though the game didn't explain it. She didn't have the time. In the original game the things that happen with Byleth present her with the opportunity to steal the Crest Stones from the Holy Mausoleum, and she jumps at that chance - but when she's thwarted there and her identity as the Flame Emperor revealed directly to Rhea, she has no choice but to declare war right then, since her hostile intentions towards the Church have now been made known. It would be rather awkward to do that while also trying to re-establish the Southern Church at the same time, and limit any political benefit she might be hoping to gain from it. Instead in Three Hopes, she's able to prepare for her war for two years and declare it on her own terms fully, so she had plenty of time to re-establish the Southern Church.

Yeah, as everyone's said, the writing in this game is quite good.

[Razade]

Okay, I finished part 1 of Black Eagles/Scarlet Blaze, which ends after completing chapter 9. And woah, it threw an unexpected twist at me at the start of part 2:

Spoiler

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The Empire and Alliance form a pact to work together to end the war and bring peace to Fodlan! While the war is basically at a stalemate, no less, not because the Alliance is in danger of being overrun or anything.

Just, wow. Don't get me wrong, as a story development it makes total sense, given Edelgard's objectives and the fact that Claude would sympathize with them; plus if you recruit everyone you can then Lorenz is now the head of House Gloucestre and has come over to working for the Empire, and Lysithea has also joined up and is the sole heir of House Ordelia, so at this point there's significant ties between the two nations there. But I never imagined they'd actually have something like that happen in this game, given everyone else treated Edelgard and the Empire 100% as the party that was in the wrong in the war in the first game. Such a pact between the Kingdom and Alliance would've been much less surprising.

It's also rather nice for putting to rest one of the weirder arguments I saw some people put forth to paint Edelgard as a pure villain: that she just wanted to conquer all of Fodlan and unite it under the Empire's rule again. It never tracked with how Three Houses presented her intentions, but in this game's history especially, it's very obviously not the case. She straight-up never attacks the Alliance*, only the Church and, once they take the Church's side, Kingdom, and then forges this pact with Claude less than a year into the war.

*The nobles who control the Great Bridge let her army pass on the way to Garreg Mach at the start of the war, and the only clashes you have with the Alliance in part 1 are when those same nobles betray you and try to take out the rear guard she'd left to cover their flank in case the Alliance came after them, and you need come to the rescue.

Also, on a side note, I believe I have the answer to my earlier question of why Edelgard wouldn't have restored the Southern Church in the original game if she'd intended to do so as part of her plan, even though the game didn't explain it. She didn't have the time. In the original game the things that happen with Byleth present her with the opportunity to steal the Crest Stones from the Holy Mausoleum, and she jumps at that chance - but when she's thwarted there and her identity as the Flame Emperor revealed directly to Rhea, she has no choice but to declare war right then, since her hostile intentions towards the Church have now been made known. It would be rather awkward to do that while also trying to re-establish the Southern Church at the same time, and limit any political benefit she might be hoping to gain from it. Instead in Three Hopes, she's able to prepare for her war for two years and declare it on her own terms fully, so she had plenty of time to re-establish the Southern Church.

Yeah, as everyone's said, the writing in this game is quite good.

I mean...

Spoiler: Three Houses

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It is Eddie's fault the war starts. The Empire is absolutely the aggressor. In every route. The reasons aren't actual conquest, Eddie knows the Slitherers are up to crap and wants to get rid of them and Rhea but she is, 100%, the instigator of the war. You have to do a lot of backflips to somehow make it so the Empire isn't the main aggressor in what kicks off the war. It is even in this game.

[Zevox]

I mean...

Spoiler: Three Houses

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It is Eddie's fault the war starts. The Empire is absolutely the aggressor. In every route. The reasons aren't actual conquest, Eddie knows the Slitherers are up to crap and wants to get rid of them and Rhea but she is, 100%, the instigator of the war. You have to do a lot of backflips to somehow make it so the Empire isn't the main aggressor in what kicks off the war. It is even in this game.

Spoiler: Three Houses

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Yes, obviously, I'm well aware of that. And?

The surprising thing to me here is that they actually had Claude speak to her and conclude that forging an alliance with her was a good idea, not simply fight her because she was the aggressor, as happened in Three Houses.

[Razade]

Spoiler: Three Houses

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Yes, obviously, I'm well aware of that. And?

The surprising thing to me here is that they actually had Claude speak to her and conclude that forging an alliance with her was a good idea, not simply fight her because she was the aggressor, as happened in Three Houses.

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This language here seemed to imply that this was either a mistaken or otherwise unfair feeling on their part or that they also had some culpability in the war.

given everyone else treated Edelgard and the Empire 100% as the party that was in the wrong in the war in the first game. Such a pact between the Kingdom and Alliance would've been much less surprising.

[Zevox]

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This language here seemed to imply that this was either a mistaken or otherwise unfair feeling on their part or that they also had some culpability in the war.

Spoiler: Three Houses

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It's mistaken in the sense that Edelgard is not 100% in the wrong here. Nobody is 100% in the wrong in this war; Edelgard's views of the Church are largely accurate, and her belief that only overthrowing them by force will deal with the problems they cause debatable, but definitely possible. At the same time, the Church is legitimately mostly filled with people who simply want the best for Fodlan, which up to a point even includes Rhea - it's mainly her fanaticism on certain things, and her tyrannical way of dealing with any significant opposition to her views, which causes the problems. But since she's an ageless member of some non-Human species who isn't going to lose her power with any amount of time, it's either find a way to convince her, specifically, to stop acting the way she does, or overthrow her. Though even knowing that much depends upon knowledge Edelgard likely doesn't have in full, due to the Church leadership being so secretive.

Obviously both the Kingdom and Alliance are completely blameless for starting the war. Though if we want to get technical, they actually aren't totally blameless for the scope of the resulting conflict, since their participation in the war is entirely voluntary - Edelgard declared war on the Church, not them. While it's obviously completely understandable why they'd choose to get involved on the Church's side, they always had the option to not do so, in which case the war would be a much smaller, shorter one. Though that mostly applies to the Kingdom, since the Alliance does try to stay neutral, up to a point.

[Rodin]

Spoiler: Three Houses

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It's mistaken in the sense that Edelgard is not 100% in the wrong here. Nobody is 100% in the wrong in this war; Edelgard's views of the Church are largely accurate, and her belief that only overthrowing them by force will deal with the problems they cause debatable, but definitely possible. At the same time, the Church is legitimately mostly filled with people who simply want the best for Fodlan, which up to a point even includes Rhea - it's mainly her fanaticism on certain things, and her tyrannical way of dealing with any significant opposition to her views, which causes the problems. But since she's an ageless member of some non-Human species who isn't going to lose her power with any amount of time, it's either find a way to convince her, specifically, to stop acting the way she does, or overthrow her. Though even knowing that much depends upon knowledge Edelgard likely doesn't have in full, due to the Church leadership being so secretive.

Obviously both the Kingdom and Alliance are completely blameless for starting the war. Though if we want to get technical, they actually aren't totally blameless for the scope of the resulting conflict, since their participation in the war is entirely voluntary - Edelgard declared war on the Church, not them. While it's obviously completely understandable why they'd choose to get involved on the Church's side, they always had the option to not do so, in which case the war would be a much smaller, shorter one. Though that mostly applies to the Kingdom, since the Alliance does try to stay neutral, up to a point.

[SPOILER=Three Houses]I'm sorry, but that's just...wrong. Factually wrong based on what we see in the game. Edelgard smashes the power of the church in 3 out of the 4 routes by capturing Rhea and seizing Garreg Mach. If she was just against the church she could have stopped there, and by the time Byleth wakes up the war is over.

Edelgard is a much scarier fanatic than that - she's a Daenerys style "break the wheel and damn the consequences" character who wants to smash the feudal system and replace it with a more just system no matter the consequences for whoever gets ground in the gears of change. She has the same utopia-justifies-the-means attitude as Rhea, which is what makes Three Houses so compelling. It's a story of two broken people (Rhea and Edelgard) trying to force a better world in exactly the wrong way.

Peace was never an option, at least in Three Houses. I can't speak for Three Hopes - there are enough early plot differences that the political situation is radically changed.

[Dragonus45]

Oh yea! More Edelgard apologism. I get that is this version of the story they have toned her down a bit but in the original every route but the one join her and you are around to hold her back she is an absolute monster.

[Rising Phoenix]

Okay so.

Spoiler: General Spoiler

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Whomever wrote Byleth deserves all the praise. Byleth's personality was a lot of "show, don't tell" in 3H. No longer so in this game. It's a real shame that none of her supports except Jeralt and Sezh seems to have any actual conversation though.

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I just got them too...And now I wanna reload the save and kill them. Just to see what happens... Will have to save that for another playthrough

Regarding Three houses

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I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)

[Zevox]

Spoiler: Three Houses

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I'm sorry, but that's just...wrong. Factually wrong based on what we see in the game. Edelgard smashes the power of the church in 3 out of the 4 routes by capturing Rhea and seizing Garreg Mach. If she was just against the church she could have stopped there, and by the time Byleth wakes up the war is over.

Edelgard is a much scarier fanatic than that - she's a Daenerys style "break the wheel and damn the consequences" character who wants to smash the feudal system and replace it with a more just system no matter the consequences for whoever gets ground in the gears of change. She has the same utopia-justifies-the-means attitude as Rhea, which is what makes Three Houses so compelling. It's a story of two broken people (Rhea and Edelgard) trying to force a better world in exactly the wrong way.

Peace was never an option, at least in Three Houses. I can't speak for Three Hopes - there are enough early plot differences that the political situation is radically changed.

(Fixed the spoiler block for you. Might want to do that to the original post.)

Spoiler: Three Houses

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No, it's absolutely not wrong. In the three non-Crimson Flower routes she does capture Rhea and drive the Church out of Garreg Mach, sure, but that's not "smashing the power of the Church." Again, knowing that Rhea is personally the source of most of the problems the Church causes requires knowledge she doesn't have. As far as she's concerned, with the rest of the Church's leadership (Setheth, the Knights of Seiros, likely nameless Bishops they didn't bother to introduce personally in the game, etc) still out there and determined to fight back and rescue Rhea, plus seeking the aid of the Kingdom, the Church is still very much around. Just taking one leader won't break the influence of the continent's sole major religious institution. That's kind of part of the problem: as a religious institution, it isn't just a regional or military power, and its hold on the continent won't be broken by just forcing it out of its main headquarters and taking out the one person atop its leadership. Again, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know that Rhea herself is the main problem with it, and believes it to be more institutional.

Admittedly though, something that has always confused me with Three Houses is why Edelgard captures Rhea in the other three routes, rather than kills her as she does in Crimson Flower. I've seen people speculate it's because the Agarthians needed Rhea's blood for something, but there's no indication of that in the game, it's just an assumption based on their earlier brief kidnapping of Flayn, so I don't think it's a satisfying explanation - especially since they keep her alive for five full years. But I'm hoping that Three Hopes will provide an answer there, actually, since in Scarlet Blaze Edelgard has expressed a desire to take Rhea alive.

Also, to be clear, yes, Edelgard is a dangerous fanatic. I mean, she's at the point where she's decided that a war that will cause untold suffering across the continent is an acceptable course of action to achieve her goals, so of course she is. It's just that her reasoning isn't really fundamentally wrong, so she may be right that such a conflict is needed if one wants to make the kind of significant changes she does to Fodlan. That's what makes the game so compelling - nobody is entirely the villain (discounting the Agarthians, anyway, and even with them you can at least take some sympathetic backstory as to how they came to be the monsters they are as implied in their history of conflict with Rhea). Everyone legitimately wants what is best for the world around them, and just arrive at different conclusions as to what that is; some more dangerous than others, but still not without an argument to be made for them.

Oh yea! More Edelgard apologism. I get that is this version of the story they have toned her down a bit but in the original every route but the one join her and you are around to hold her back she is an absolute monster.

Edelgard is the same person in every route of Three Houses, as well as here in Three Hopes. The difference is that in the three routes of Three Houses where you don't join her you get to see what happens when the war turns against her and she gets desperate.

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I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)

Spoiler: Three Houses

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Rhea does more than that. She manipulates Fodlan in a lot of ways - the very teachings of the Church of Seiros are in many regards built on lies, after all, not mentioning the truth of Sothis being from this dragon-like species, being dead, being her/Seiros' mother, etc. In that same regard, she's almost certainly the source of the common beliefs about the history of the world and crests, i.e. all of the incorrect mythology built around her struggle against Nemesis, and more importantly, the fact that crests are seen as gifts of the Goddess which help to give Nobles their right to rule over commoners, rather than just a result of people's descent from those who killed Rhea's people so long ago. It's ultimately Rhea's doing that the world is in the state it is in Three Houses, yet she's fine with it all as long as her authority isn't challenged.

And that's before getting into the implications of the books in the Abyss Library, which reveal that, for instance, Rhea banned telescopes, with one of the stated reasons being they would "lessen the mystery of the Goddess" - i.e. she was aware they might lead to people realizing that the Church's teachings that the Goddess lives on a star can't be right. Similarly, she banned the printing press, with stated reasons for this being that it "risks mass circulation of misinformation" (i.e. teachings other than the Church's, which already get put in writing plenty), is "useless to illiterate commoners" (when we know that in reality it helped lead to the spread of literacy since there was now more reason for people to learn to read), and "risks intensifying disparity between church branches" (likely meaning she feared it making it easier for those among the Western Church who were questioning the Central Church after the Tragedy of Duscur to further inflame those tensions). She's quite manipulative in many ways. She just also sincerely believes that what she's doing is good for the world.

[Dragonus45]

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I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)

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Yea she is worse then Rhea in almost every way outside of he one route where Rhea has her total breakdown when you side against her. The church for all that is wrong with it and it's stifling of innovation could have been managed in so many ways other then trying to murder your friends and start a continent wide war. Edelgard is a monster and I might buy this game entirely for the chance to stab her in Warriors style gameplay.

[Zevox]

On the subject of Three Hopes' classes, I've finally gotten into Master Classes, albeit slowly due to how few Master Seals you get at first. And well, some of them are happily unique and cool, others not so much.

Gremory is entirely different from other Mage classes, and honestly pretty awesome. Definitely one of my favorites now.

Dark Bishop is just Dark Mage+ - although it's the highest-ranking class for male Mages, it doesn't feel like a general endpoint the way Gremory does. Once Lindhart masters it, I'll be moving him back to the regular Bishop class.

Emperor and Asura are mostly Armored Lord and Fleurgal but better, but that was predictable, and both are still great.

Holy Knight is quite different from Cavalier/Paladin, and pretty cool. I haven't gotten to try Dark Knight yet technically, but my suspicion is that Jeritza's Death Knight class is just a copy or slight variant of it, which is disappointing for Death Knight. If I'm right, then Dark and Holy Knight are kind of similar, but not exact copies, so that's nice.

Bow Knight is very different from Archer/Sniper, though that was predictable since those aren't mounted. Still cool though, I like it more than its unmounted counterparts.

Trickster and War Master, though, are just Assassin+ and Grappler+. Trickster gets to use magic in place of combat artes if they want, but doesn't work it into their normal moveset like Holy Knight and Death Knight, so that's disappointing. Makes me expect that Mortal Savant will just be Swordmaster+ with the option to use magic, too, though I haven't gotten to that yet. Also, War Master is now strictly fisticuffs, no using it as a top-end axe class like you could in Three Houses.

Haven't gotten to Falcon Knight, Great Knight, or Wyvern Lord yet. I'm betting the fliers are just upgrades of their lower rank versions, but curious what Great Knight will be like.

All in all, not bad. I'm happy some of the Master Classes change things up, especially Gremory, since they could have just been lazy and made that a top-end Warlock or Bishop, unlike Holy Knight or Bow Knight where being mounted would make copying the moveset harder to justify. Still wish there weren't so many that are just "other class, but better," though.

[Rising Phoenix]

Snip stuff about Rhea

All of this is true, however.

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Again she's trying to protect her species and is trying to co-exist with humans. Sothis did try to create a utopia were they and the then Argathians lived side by side (unless I am grossly mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong). Only for the humans to backstab them in the back.

She knows that some humans cannot be trusted. She knows that they cannot play the long game like her species can and can be extremely short sighted, selfish, greedy manipulative etc. She also knows that not all humans are bad.

So she builds a world where they can co-exist. It's not perfect, it's not pretty, it is built on lies, but its livable and its definitely better then the world being in a constant blood bath.

Again I completely understand from where Edelgard is coming from. The system created by Rhea has festered. But starting a war,. destroying the church and continuing past whilst killing millions of innocents for a societal shake up is just inexcusable. Sit at the table with Rhea first, have a heart to heart (with Seteth and Flayn present as well if possible), and see where that takes you before you start yelling 'off with their heads'