Elan's Happy Ending

[littlebum2002]

I was reading a few random strips this morning and came upon this which clearly implies that a lot of creatures/goblins were killed in the explosion.

[hamishspence]

I was reading a few random strips this morning and came upon this which clearly implies that a lot of creatures/goblins were killed in the explosion.

That's already been brought up:

Might depend how you interpret the goblin spirit's testimony here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

"saw the whole thing. Well, up to the point that I was killed along with the others".


The testimony is about "proof the Order destroyed the gate".


Did he witness the activation of the self-destruct, flee the wrong way, and die in the explosion?


Or did he just witness Elan activating the self-destruct, offscreen, while being chased by Belkar, right before Belkar killed him and his fellow goblins?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

I always took him to be the ghost of a goblin combatant that was killed in the throne room. I don't even think it's absolutely necessary in context that "the whole thing" includes Elan pressing the self-destruct button, because the testimonies seem to be roughly in chronological order - from Sangwaan identifying the Order as the adventurer party that was present in the Dungeon of Dorukan to the pressing of the button by Elan, then to the explosion, then to the Order falling on the flumphs. But yeah it's vague and open to interpretation.

[dancrilis]

Dancrilis says he had no way to know there were any survivors

I said what?

[brian 333]

So, the gist of this is that for New And Improved Elan to have a happy ending, he must atone for his reckless past and callous disregard for those he wronged.

The list so far:
1) The story itself must conclude with Xykon vanquished.
2) Haley must survive.
3) Whether Elan dies or not, his past must be acknowleged and atonement for his wrongs must be made.
3a) If Elan dies it must be in accomplishing at least one of the goals above, preferably all of them.

Have I missed any?

My personal thought is that #3 has already been/is being accomplished, as of when he wrote his father out of the story and dedicated himself to saving the world. Recognition of his past was obvious in his final speech bubbles to Tarquin, and his quest to save the world is his still ongoing atonement.

He has changed in important ways:
No longer innocent.
No longer whimsical.
No longer careless.
But the core character traits, loving, forgiving, honest, optimistic, and fun-loving, remain untarnished. His youthful delusions have been shattered and he is not afraid of the reality he is facing. He is becoming responsible, both personally and professionally. He has become an adult.

[woweedd]

Agreed. (Not that this is not a common and goodish reason not to blow up a facility.)



That's about Yavin, right? I'm with Peelee on that.



Littlebum reminded me that there's this thing called youtube, so I checked the scene. Is it spelled out somewhere that everyone's evacuating? The patterns of movement shown do not seem consistent with that (there are people running in both directions on the same corridor, for instance).

EDIT:



I will, if you don't mind, and no, it won't be "DIE!!!!!!". I'll content myself with pointing out that individual examples of Redcloak not getting himself and all other goblins present killed via jumping at Xykon's throat while achieving literally nothing in DCF means little if anything in itself;

that damning as they are (and though indicating that "Redcloak is a horrible, Evil person whose motives are nowhere near as pure as he'd like others to believe (he is only half-succesful in deceiving himself)"), singular acts of distasteful pragmatism do not prove that Redcloak doesn't and didn't care about any goblin ever as you pretty much explicitly claimed (it is, again, simple, classical logic: they only prove that Redcloak doesn't care about every single individual goblin life);

that the fact itself you casually glossed over half my arguments, chiefly the epiphany (no. 9) and its ramifications (examples of Redcloak acting in the interest of his fellow goblins while risking life and limb and going so far as to stall the Plan itself for literal months) is in itself telling;

and lastly, that I deeply resent both your tone and your implications (that I'm too dumb to realize Redcloak is all talk (never mind that you could not refute a number of key arguments to the contrary) and that I have an "utter nerve" for bringing up something you generously misrepresented as a strawman argument I never made).

That's the thing: Redcloak does care about the goblin people. He cares about them, in the abstract, so much that he's willing to sacrifice every existing Goblin for the sake of hypothetical future Goblins. Redcloak places "The Goblin People" over the majority of actual Goblin people he interacts with.

[Kish]

That's the thing: Redcloak does care about the goblin people. He cares about them, in the abstract, so much that he's willing to sacrifice every existing Goblin for the sake of hypothetical future Goblins. Redcloak places "The Goblin People" over the majority of actual Goblin people he interacts with.

I was possibly thrown enough by the claim that what he did at the end of Start of Darkness somehow gave his other actions an excuse that I expanded Redcloak's indifference to goblin lives beyond when it actually is.

Start of Darkness is--as the name suggests--the story of how

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

a young goblin acolyte who wishes to serve his people becomes Redcloak, who serves his people, baked and with apples in their mouths, to Xykon, in the name of accomplishing the Plan with Xykon.

That does mean that any time prior to him murdering his brother, he actually cares about other goblins--though their significance in his eyes visibly dwindles over the course of the book. The validity of his "you can't try to kill Xykon, that would Hurt The Goblin People!" argument should be clear from the fact that the other goblins Redcloak was "concerned" about all died, inevitably, as the result of following Xykon; many of them were casually murdered by Xykon (oh, but Redcloak whined about it, that's surely vastly more genuine caring that his brother's attempt to destroy Xykon, right?).

When a hobgoblin saved his life, he realized he has been turning into Xykon and recoiled. After that, he treats hobgoblins the same way he treats goblins: lots of talk, with all the actual individuals being casually and brutally sacrificed to the Greater Good, which bears an odd resemblance to a human skeleton.

[Squire Doodad]

When a hobgoblin saved his life, he realized he has been turning into Xykon and recoiled. After that, he treats hobgoblins the same way he treats goblins: lots of talk, with all the actual individuals being casually and brutally sacrificed to the Greater Good, which bears an odd resemblance to a human skeleton.

You can certainly make a major improvement to your moral and ethic compass and still be a horrible, short-sighted and uncaring person.

[danielxcutter]

You can certainly make a major improvement to your moral and ethic compass and still be a horrible, short-sighted and uncaring person.

Yeah, just because the bar was low enough that the IFCC uses it for the limbo dance during their parties doesn’t mean Redcloak didn’t clear it.

[Crimsonmantle]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

a young goblin acolyte who wishes to serve his people becomes Redcloak, who serves his people, baked and with apples in their mouths

That's a lie, they were actually rinsed in honey mustard and garnished with a cracker.

[Squire Doodad]

That's a lie, they were actually rinsed in honey mustard and garnished with a cracker.

Did you forget the black pepper?

[Crimsonmantle]

Did you forget the black pepper?

Pepper was available to those who wanted it iirc.