Elan's Happy Ending

[Werbaer]

Also, Haley, you're a greedy, violent, selfish, b-word woman [...]

I know that one: brave

[Precure]

A happy ending is one where Elan turns nasty and misogynistic toward Haley?

If saying "b-word" is misogynistic, then Haley must be the CEO of misogynism of this comic.

[Ruck]

If saying "b-word" is misogynistic, then Haley must be the CEO of misogynism of this comic.

The author has admitted she was as such and that she has actively tried to stop doing that, and hasn't for a long time. Besides, is that your excuse for writing a fantasy ideal ending that involves a man going on a cruel tirade against his girlfriend-- one which completely ignores the growth of their relationship and their growth individually as people in that time?

[RatElemental]

Maybe Elan puts on a helmet of opposite alignment and then the fact that all his friends die and the world gets destroyed makes him happy? Makes about as much sense as the last proposal.

[Precure]

The author has admitted she was as such and that she has actively tried to stop doing that, and hasn't for a long time.

If she's serious about that, good for her. She can review her previous life choices after her break up with Elan and try to be a better person.

Besides, is that your excuse for writing a fantasy ideal ending that involves a man going on a cruel tirade against his girlfriend-- one which completely ignores the growth of their relationship and their growth individually as people in that time?

They're both were terrible people, IMHO, and that ending was written according to that. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Metastachydium]

They're both were terrible people, IMHO, and that ending was written according to that. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

???
For starters, Elan was borderline insufferably stupid in the early days, but the closest he ever came to terrible was his being kinda-sorta mean at times back in DCF.
Further, the Oracle is an oracle. I'm pretty sure his prophecies do account for stuff yet unknown to folks that receive the prophecy – such as, say, character growth.

Maybe Elan puts on a helmet of opposite alignment and then the fact that all his friends die and the world gets destroyed makes him happy?

OR maybe my crack theory is correct and Elan is indeed an agent of the Snarl, intent on destroying the WHOLE world!!!!

[Precure]

For starters, Elan was borderline insufferably stupid in the early days, but the closest he ever came to terrible was his being kinda-sorta mean at times back in DCF.

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

[Metastachydium]

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

Nope. That fell under insufferably stupid.

[Fyraltari]

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

It was stupid and thoughtless, but it wasn't mean. Elan had no intention of hurting the people inside the dungeon, he just forgot about them.

[Ruck]

I have to wonder why anyone continues to read this story if they think the main characters are mean and cruel, and think it would be a good thing if they were mean and cruel to each other. I mean, I just don't get it.

[Precure]

I have to wonder why anyone continues to read this story if they think the main characters are mean and cruel, and think it would be a good thing if they were mean and cruel to each other. I mean, I just don't get it.

Just because I criticize them doesn't mean I don't like or care about them. That's why I want Haley to be a better person and Elan to accept responsibility for his crimes, compared to Belkar who I dislike and want dead sooner or later. Also I like most of the secondary characters, and Mr. Burlew is great at writing fantasy.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm sorry, but...
Wasn't there literally an entire subplot in W&X about Haley learning to move past the selfish thief mentality and open up to people, and literally the entirety of BRitF is about Elan learning to take responsibility for his actions and reconcile the value of storytelling with the consequences and non-formulaic nature of the real world?

[brian 333]

Elan is a simple guy, unless rule of funny requires subtlety or complexity in unexpected situations. So his Happy Ending must be simple, straightforward, and happy.

There really isn't room for melodrama or poetic justice; the story has to end in a way that leaves simple, straightforward Elan content and smiling. It must be, for lack of a better term, a fairytale ending, where the story villains are trounced, the story heroes are rewarded, and Elan gets to live happily ever after.

I, personally, cannot envision that outcome for Elan if Haley isn't part of it. Any other character could have an heroic death worthy of an epic and he could have his happy ending, but not Haley. Likewise she could not deceive or betray him.

Elan's happy ending must be, like Elan, simple, uncomplicated, and happy.

[Precure]

I'm sorry, but...
Wasn't there literally an entire subplot in W&X about Haley learning to move past the selfish thief mentality and open up to people, and literally the entirety of BRitF is about Elan learning to take responsibility for his actions and reconcile the value of storytelling with the consequences and non-formulaic nature of the real world?

Haley's subplot was about her trust issues and her inability to open herself to other people. It has nothing to do with her other personal failings.
Elan finally accepted, after facing his father, that he was wrong about caring more about story tropes instead of people, that's true, but he's yet to make any admission of guilt or apology for his past crimes.

[Mike Havran]

Elan finally accepted, after facing his father, that he was wrong about caring more about story tropes instead of people, that's true, but he's yet to make any admission of guilt or apology for his past crimes.

I think that this is pretty much the only apology for Elan's ''crimes'' we are going to see.

What, exactly, would the crimes be, anyway?

[hungrycrow]

I think that this is pretty much the only apology for Elan's ''crimes'' we are going to see.

What, exactly, would the crimes be, anyway?

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?

[Mike Havran]

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?

If one argues that activating a self-destruct rune is a crime, he needs to prove either that:
- Dungeon of Dorukan was a part of a jurisdiction that considers it a crime
- Elan is a citizen of a jurisdiction that considers activating a self-destruct rune anywhere to be a crime.

Both of these claims are far from proven from the information we have. And at the sole trial regarding the event, Elan was found innocent on those charges (however farcical the trial was).

Haley is a self-proclaimed criminal, and I imagine she committed plenty of thievery and burglary in Greysky City, who seems, at least nominally, to have laws against that, given they have a token law-enforcement units.

[hungrycrow]

If one argues that activating a self-destruct rune is a crime, he needs to prove either that:
- Dungeon of Dorukan was a part of a jurisdiction that considers it a crime
- Elan is a citizen of a jurisdiction that considers activating a self-destruct rune anywhere to be a crime.

Both of these claims are far from proven from the information we have. And at the sole trial regarding the event, Elan was found innocent on those charges (however farcical the trial was).

Haley is a self-proclaimed criminal, and I imagine she committed plenty of thievery and burglary in Greysky City, who seems, at least nominally, to have laws against that, given they have a token law-enforcement units.

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

The "crime" brought up with the self-destruct rune isn't the risk to reality, but the potential that goblin civilians were still in the dungeon when it went off. Personally I believe Elan just assumed that any goblins left in the dungeon managed to flee, and that in-story he's correct. I don't think Rich will ever suggest Elan inadvertently murdered teenagers.

[Precure]

{scrubbed}

[hroþila]

It's not impossible that it'll be brought up, like "Elan, you killed a bunch of innocent people when you blew up Dorukan's gate". But since that would be kinda redundant because Elan already learned his lesson about putting narrative convention over actual people, and V's Familicide shenanigans had similar unexpected consequences ("you did the thing without thinking and a bunch of innocents died and it's your fault"), and seeing as how it wasn't brought up during the trial or at any point since, either in the story or in the commentary, and in light of the tone of the comic at the time, and given that the Order found a very obvious emergency exit despite not being familiar with the place...

Yeah I think everybody got out.

[hamishspence]

seeing as how it wasn't brought up during the trial or at any point since, either in the story or in the commentary, and in light of the tone of the comic at the time, and given that the Order found a very obvious emergency exit despite not being familiar with the place...

Yeah I think everybody got out.

Might depend how you interpret the goblin spirit's testimony here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

"saw the whole thing. Well, up to the point that I was killed along with the others".


The testimony is about "proof the Order destroyed the gate".


Did he witness the activation of the self-destruct, flee the wrong way, and die in the explosion?


Or did he just witness Elan activating the self-destruct, offscreen, while being chased by Belkar, right before Belkar killed him and his fellow goblins?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

[hroþila]

I always took him to be the ghost of a goblin combatant that was killed in the throne room. I don't even think it's absolutely necessary in context that "the whole thing" includes Elan pressing the self-destruct button, because the testimonies seem to be roughly in chronological order - from Sangwaan identifying the Order as the adventurer party that was present in the Dungeon of Dorukan to the pressing of the button by Elan, then to the explosion, then to the Order falling on the flumphs. But yeah it's vague and open to interpretation.

[Mike Havran]

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

The "crime" brought up with the self-destruct rune isn't the risk to reality, but the potential that goblin civilians were still in the dungeon when it went off. Personally I believe Elan just assumed that any goblins left in the dungeon managed to flee, and that in-story he's correct. I don't think Rich will ever suggest Elan inadvertently murdered teenagers.

My take on this is that Elan did not assume anything beyond ''Hey, what a cool rune, lol it says Do not touch! so Letz press it''
That I do not consider to be a crime in moral sense, and as I mentioned above, the lawful aspects of making it a crime are hazy at best.

It is also possible that Elan applied his older, more Tarquin-like view of narrative where an easy-going lovable fool, no matter what he bumbingly does, can never kill innocent goblin kids simply by virtue of not being in the story where this kind of twist happens. But I consider this to be way too sophisticated process for the early part of the OotS.

[Fyraltari]

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

[Metastachydium]

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

It's hard to tell with Greysky City being what it is whether he's a criminal or not, but disposing of murder victims and the like (and even incentivizing people to get hold of dead bodies) would make him be considered something like an accessory in any sane judicial system operating on the basis of sane laws. (I mean, he's basically Robert-Knox-but-worse.)

[hungrycrow]

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

He ran a business buying the corpses of murder victims, was willing to buy a living halfling, and was going to kill Celia over a debt she never explicitly agreed to. So yeah. I don't know if he actually broke Greysky City law, but it's enough to not bother me that Haley would rob him.

[JonahFalcon]

"For you at least" can just be the Oracle being a {scrubbed}. After all, that could mean happy ending for everyone, but not explicitly stating there will be.

Also, don't want to hamstring the story if Rich feels certain things would make for a better story.

[brian 333]

My personal read of The Oracle's specific wording is that there are some characters for whom the ending will not be happy, but that Elan, and presumably the audience, will find the ending to be a happy one.

Admittedly, there is no evidence that the audience will share Elan's happiness, and for some, (Belkar fans, for example,) the ending may well prove an unhappy one. This is simply my reading of the intent behind the writing.

Still going with Elan and Haley stepping into a 3d world and beginning a new adventure. Have not yet seen a better, more happier ending suggested!

[Kish]

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?

Looking at the word "violent," I would guess Precure means Haley's brutal and shocking murder of poor, defenseless Crystal.

(For the benefit of anyone who wasn't here for the last five rounds of the Crystal "murder" debate, my characterizations there are sarcastic, for me.) I would venture that the end of Crystal's story holds the answer to whether Rich thinks Haley needs to atone for that violence.

As for Elan blowing up the dungeon, aside from what hamishspence brought up (it was never brought up at the trial, as long as you ignore the panel where it explicitly was...), the people in the dungeon could be divided into five groups:

Xykon, Redcloak, and the creature in the darkness. They got out. And conspicuously had no goblins except Redcloak with them afterward.

The Order. They got out.

The goblin former-combatants in the Throne Room. They got chased down by Belkar and decapitated while he shouted at them to "run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!" Special shoutout to Roy for how effective his wardening Belkar's prison is.

The goblin teenager with the massive internal injuries who couldn't walk, never mind run. Yeah. (Also, note this and the previous one for "tone.")

All the denizens of the dungeon, multiple levels of them, who weren't in the throne room, didn't know the self-destruct mechanism existed or had been activated, and had no reason to go anywhere. Why, other than wishful thinking, would anyone finish this with "they got out"?

[brian 333]

Looking at the word "violent," I would guess Precure means Haley's brutal and shocking murder of poor, defenseless Crystal.

(For the benefit of anyone who wasn't here for the last five rounds of the Crystal "murder" debate, my characterizations there are sarcastic, for me.) I would venture that the end of Crystal's story holds the answer to whether Rich thinks Haley needs to atone for that violence.

As for Elan blowing up the dungeon, aside from what hamishspence brought up (it was never brought up at the trial, as long as you ignore the panel were it explicitly was...), the people in the dungeon could be divided into five groups:

Xykon, Redcloak, and the creature in the darkness. They got out.

The Order. They got out.

The goblin former-combatants in the Throne Room. They got chased down by Belkar and decapitated while he shouted at them to "run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!" Special shoutout to Roy for how effective his wardening Belkar's prison is.

The goblin teenager with the massive internal injuries who couldn't walk, never mind run. Yeah.

All the denizens of the dungeon, multiple levels of them, who weren't in the throne room, didn't know the self-destruct mechanism existed or had been activated, and had no reason to go anywhere. Why, other than wishful thinking, would anyone finish this with "they got out"?

The monsters that guarded the three sigils were either dead or had no reason to stick around. (Celia's crew.)

The monsters that were never converted to 3rd edition were scattering long before the Throne Room scene.

I think it's safe to say neither group was especially motivated to stick around.

Thal leaves the goblins.

And the copyrighted creature from strip 33.