Elden Ring

[LaZodiac]

I mean it kinda is.

People have a weird habit of optimizing the fun out of things. Taking the easy route even when you know the difficult is more fulfilling in the long run. It’s kinda human nature. I can’t tell you how many times in other games I did knock the difficulty down when I was having trouble and ran through a game on easy just to beat it even though the challenge was gone.

So, yeah I actually do appreciate that these games don’t give me that temptation. It’s part of why they’re the only action games I really play anymore.

And you say this as though the strategy of "grind a thousand hours and just be a massive tank to shield through everything" isn't also optimizing the fun out of things. Meanwhile if you could adjust the difficulty a bit, you could play with various different styles without fear of complete zero progression.

Also, if the problem is "I feel tempted to turn down the difficulty" that's not a reflection on how having difficulty settings is bad, that is a reflection on how "Dienekes actually would prefer things to be easier actually" that you've been tricked into thinking is the fault of others.

Which is to say; look at those games you turned the difficulty down and ask yourself if you'd have really enjoyed them if you kept it at the higher difficulty or not. Don't judge others for turning it down just because you're ashamed you did for some reason.

Indeed. There is even a name for this phenomenon: curb-cutting, named after the fact that cutting ramps into sidewalks in major cities to help wheelchair-bound people get around had huge benefits for the able-bodied population too, like making it easier for people using carts/dollies to get between the sidewalk and the street. (If you've ever had to move out of an apartment or dorm in an urban environment, or get a shopping cart to your car, you've likely benefited from these ramps despite them not being originally made for you.)

Ironically, due to where I live and businesses making bad practice of not deicing their ****ing sidewalks, these curb-ramps are excceptionally dangerous to able bodied people because they become hazardous ice slopes.

However; my falling doesn't mean I want them taken away, because I recognize their importance. Makes you think, doesn't it?

[Dienekes]

And you say this as though the strategy of "grind a thousand hours and just be a massive tank to shield through everything" isn't also optimizing the fun out of things. Meanwhile if you could adjust the difficulty a bit, you could play with various different styles without fear of complete zero progression.

Oh it very much is. Again, Sekiro is my favorite because it didn’t allow that.

Also, if the problem is "I feel tempted to turn down the difficulty" that's not a reflection on how having difficulty settings is bad, that is a reflection on how "Dienekes actually would prefer things to be easier actually" that you've been tricked into thinking is the fault of others.

Which is to say; look at those games you turned the difficulty down and ask yourself if you'd have really enjoyed them if you kept it at the higher difficulty or not. Don't judge others for turning it down just because you're ashamed you did for some reason.

Some yes, some no. I’ve learned that Dragon Age is not improved by making it difficult, for example. But then my core engagement with that game is story and player choice not “are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president.”

I would however, prefer if you didn't just assume I've been tricked or whatever, and I actually know what I like and dislike when playing a game.

[Rynjin]

That's not accessibility features, and does little to help with my major problem with the game ('timing on dodge rolls is too tight for me due to a disability').

I also think the phrasing you're looking for is 'But FromSoft basically exploded in popularity by catering to the ableist game market'. The worst part is, if I have the audacity to use the only tools I know of to make the game accessible they'll at least softban me from online features for 'cheating'. So I'd like them to get off their arses and do their bloody job if they're going to stop me from doing it.

I mean...yes? Using tools like that for online play IS cheating. I'm sure any kind of slow-mode like some games have would disable online play while active too, because how do you even make that work? Do you make both players slow down? That's eminently griefable. Do you get invisible frame advantage in PvP, so the other person just ****ing DIES sometimes with no recourse? Ditto.

Things like that work fine for single player, and should be added, but it's ridiculous to expect them to work for multiplayer as well.

Fun fact: Using cheats and mods in offline mode prevents you from getting softbanned. So if you ever want to go online later for whatever reason, you can do so. Alternatively, just accept the softban, since it doesn't prevent you from using the primary online features you'd be using anyway: messages and bloodstains.

One big change here is that dying doesn't make you a weaker form and thus easier to keep dying - at least not that I've experienced yet - though you still drop all your money souls runes when you die and must go retrieve them.

Sort of. Elden Ring has interestingly flipped it around. There are buffs you can collect which use a consumable resource to give you a buff until you die. In a way this is the same thing, but it doesn't FEEL the same, you know?

I would however, prefer if you didn't just assume I've been tricked or whatever, and I actually know what I like and dislike when playing a game.

I mean you clearly, demonstrably don't. If you feel tempted to do something and are only prevented from doing it by a complete inability to do so...you very clearly wanted to do the thing you couldn't do.

If there was, hypothetically, a slider for enemy aggression, parry windows, etc. but you liked the default option, you could just leave it there. Sekiro has that freedom as a purely singleplayer experience.

[Lord Raziere]

those are all good points, but I'm not sure if everything needs to be for everyone. its not as if we have difficulty settings for books or movies to make them easier to watch or read, we just kind of accept some things are not for everyone on those.

like if a bunch of you can't play Elden Ring or Dark Souls....okay whatever. thats fine and valid. go find something to move on with your life, be happy with whatever does make you happy, don't try to force yourself into being happy with things that don't. given the soulslike's entire point is to achieve mastery over something that won't just give it to you and has legit made it a fun experience a lot of people when previously such a thing wasn't there, a difficulty setting might be against the point of the genre now.

and then there is the fact that things like Mario and Legend of Zelda games: they don't have difficulty settings. their entire thing is mastery just for different kinds of gameplay. Mario for platforming, Zelda for general puzzle-solving/adventuring. Dark souls/Elden Ring is like that....for combat. is a Parry anything different from a mario player pulling off a sick trick jump? sure Soulslikes are very rpglike in how they function and those have difficulty settings but there is a core gameplay loop to master just like Mario. its just that its not the gaming mechanics people have been used to since the 1980's. and the earliest Mario games weren't exactly easy.

I originally was someone who did a lot of games on easiest difficulty then I got curious about dark Souls 3 and tried it and like it. I found joy in difficulty when I previously didn't. If one adds difficulty settings to everything, I might've never tried any game harder than easy if not for that.

now on Sekiro, did I use a mod to cheat for that one? yes. but I didn't alter the core loop, but rather gave myself infinite items. why? because still have to use those items and thus know how to use them to beat the bosses. little different from how other souls games work where if you know how to effectively use all the tools at your disposal you can get an advantage to win easier far quicker than bashing your head against a wall. I will agree that Isshin is just bull though.

why last session in Elden Ring I had to fight these big fat dudes who unlike previous souls titles are real fast and hard to kill in a dungeon. I was having trouble until I remembered that there are magic dart shooting traps throughout said dungeons and so as long as I kept luring these guys into said traps and setting them off, they'd die quicker and easier than if I took them head on, and as a result I got through the dungeon. the boss? I summoned a spirit to help that just kept resurrecting itself to distract the guardian dog and it helped me get a lot of hits in. other times I kill enemies from afar with a bow, or just throw items at them to weaken them, or ride by killing them on horseback. soulslikes are only as hard as they are reputed to be if you insist on melee purity or "1v1 honorable combat".

does the community have weird ideas about how to play it sometimes? yeah. people for some reason call using the methods I did to take out bosses like that "cheesing" it to a streamer when those are things intentionally added to the game for you to use as you see fit. if you use them well, turns out the boss dies. some people beat these games by becoming a god of melee combat, others do it by becoming lethal batman. both work. its a diversity that you might not get if you give a difficulty setting option because you would not have the impetus to seek out these smarter methods of taking things down. Night's Cavalry was hard until I realized that cavalry fights were intended for two-handed weapons or ones with reach, I switched to Bloodhound's Fang and I beat Night's Cavalry in one try after bashing my head against the wall a lot earlier using my one-handed weapons like flail or daggers. again: using all the tools at your disposal. I had a difficulty setting I might not have discovered or thought to do that and the gameplay was enhanced because of it.

that and should all intentionally difficult things be only made by fan kaizos? sure fans can make it well-designed sometimes, but they can also make it stupidly memeably unfair with no sense of proper game design. I'll wager that officially and professionally designed hardness is more fun than most fan-created difficulty. is there no place for a game that is simply a challenge for the sake of it? we never got an easy mode for Hollow Knight either.

on the flipside, games WITH easy mode include things like Doom Eternal. I played easy mode on that.....because its the only mode where I can get far at all because its brutal and incredibly fast, its fun but makes me a rush every time I fought a particularly long battle as I just fought to survive in a frenzy. I still died a lot and honestly playing a soulslike is relatively relaxing compared to that. like I'd rather play a soulslike over constantly playing Doom Eternal because Doom Eternal is much more demanding to me than Elden Ring, even on easy mode. easy is relative and subjective. some games should be hard and not fan created, because not every game needs to be an introduction or a gateway. some things should be allowed to be spicier food once you've gotten tired of the lighter meals.

now is there merit to making baby's first soulslike game with a difficulty setting that so that people can experience what soulslike might be like without the dark souls/elden ring community or the punishing difficulty being attached to it, something you might call a souls-lite? sure, if you can figure out how to replicate the experience and design it well for an easier difficulty. there many many kinds of people in this world and it might be a niche to fill at some point. should Fromsoft be the people to make one? I don't think so.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean it kinda is.

People have a weird habit of optimizing the fun out of things. Taking the easy route even when you know the difficult is more fulfilling in the long run. It’s kinda human nature. I can’t tell you how many times in other games I did knock the difficulty down when I was having trouble and ran through a game on easy just to beat it even though the challenge was gone.

So, yeah I actually do appreciate that these games don’t give me that temptation. It’s part of why they’re the only action games I really play anymore.

If you can't be asked to give yourself the level of challenge you desire, I shouldn't be allowed to play the game (or, in this mythical world people have created, be limited to one particular strategy).

People have different levels of ability, and people have different desires for level of challenge. But mostly?

After having been the unpopular kid at school because I can't sports I got sick and tired of gatekeeping.

I mean...yes? Using tools like that for online play IS cheating. I'm sure any kind of slow-mode like some games have would disable online play while active too, because how do you even make that work? Do you make both players slow down? That's eminently griefable. Do you get invisible frame advantage in PvP, so the other person just ****ing DIES sometimes with no recourse? Ditto.

Things like that work fine for single player, and should be added, but it's ridiculous to expect them to work for multiplayer as well.

Fun fact: Using cheats and mods in offline mode prevents you from getting softbanned. So if you ever want to go online later for whatever reason, you can do so. Alternatively, just accept the softban, since it doesn't prevent you from using the primary online features you'd be using anyway: messages and bloodstains.

I'm being punished for having a disability. If it was flipped round, if I could slow the game down five, ten, or twenty percent, but the game told me that it would lock out invasions and summoning? That wouldn't be a punishment, that would be an honest trade.

As I said, I know it might be hard to implement with multiplayer elements, but there's a world of difference between giving the option and punishing me for making the game accessible by locking me out (or worse, putting me in the server for cheaters) because I did their bloody job for them.

Similarly, I think that there should just be an option in the menu to turn the entirety of the invasion mechanics off. But that's less accessibility, more just the fact that not everyone likes them.

Let's stop pretending the Dark Souls games are some bastion of perfect difficulty. They're a set of games with mostly solid occasionally slightly unfair difficulty built around correctly timing inputs to signals. I'm honestly not sure the series is actually better balanced than most modern games, I suspect if you're able they're about as well balanced as any modern game. If you're not able they can be significantly worse at balance than games with the easy but questionable numeric scaling difficulty modes.



The reason we don't have difficulty settings for books and films but do for games is simple: you can't fail at a book or film. Anybody can watch a film or read a book from beginning to end with at worst having to look up what words or phrases mean. For those who do have issues we've made accessible versions (audiobooks, large print, braile books, audio description tracks, subtitles, almost certainly other things that I'm forgetting). In other forms of media not experiencing something is a choice, why is accessibility a bigger ask for games?

[Rynjin]

I'm being punished for having a disability. If it was flipped round, if I could slow the game down five, ten, or twenty percent, but the game told me that it would lock out invasions and summoning? That wouldn't be a punishment, that would be an honest trade.

It's...the same thing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be an in-game option, but the knock-on effects are identical, either way.

Similarly, I think that there should just be an option in the menu to turn the entirety of the invasion mechanics off. But that's less accessibility, more just the fact that not everyone likes them.

PvP is 100% opt-in in Elden Ring. You have to pop an item to enable invasions.

[LaZodiac]

Hell, part of the appeal of Dark Souls is that the slower, more plodding pace makes them EASIER TO LEARN compared to high octane character action games like DMC and Bayonetta. Being allowed to set the game speed down is a genuinely reasonable request!

I wouldn't say it is cheating at all, by the way. Even if it's modded in. Cheating is only a relevant thing if you're employing it against another player.

[Lord Raziere]

It's...the same thing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be an in-game option, but the knock-on effects are identical, either way.



PvP is 100% opt-in in Elden Ring. You have to pop an item to enable invasions.

Yeah I haven't gotten a single actual invasion in over 33 hours of playing. A few NPC "invasions" sure but I dealt with them. I'm still searching for the item to repeatedly invade other worlds, I think I have the one that allows others to invade me but not exactly what I'm looking for unless its the same thing.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah I haven't gotten a single actual invasion in over 33 hours of playing. A few NPC "invasions" sure but I dealt with them. I'm still searching for the item to repeatedly invade other worlds, I think I have the one that allows others to invade me but not exactly what I'm looking for unless its the same thing.

There is an item to invade worlds like a nasty lad, and an item to put down an honourable "come fight this!!!!!!" sign. I think I found both but the one problem of a game like THIS is that... **** if I remember where girl.

[Lord Raziere]

There is an item to invade worlds like a nasty lad, and an item to put down an honourable "come fight this!!!!!!" sign. I think I found both but the one problem of a game like THIS is that... **** if I remember where girl.

Before or after Godrick?

[LaZodiac]

Before or after Godrick?

Before, and i mean actually before before you can absolutely get to all the areas past Godrick before actually fighting him.

[Rynjin]

You can get to a lot of areas involuntarily.

Spoiler: Minor Location Spoilers

Show

Teleport chests are wild. There's one near the dragon Agheel that teleports you deeep into Caelid in the Sellia Tunnels (every player message simply read "I want to go home. I want to go home. I want to go home.", and another in a Limgrave fort that zoops you straight to Leyndell with a very high level golem nearby.

[Lord Raziere]

Before, and i mean actually before before you can absolutely get to all the areas past Godrick before actually fighting him.

so somewhere in Limgrave, those red wastes or Weeping Peninsula. thanks.

[warty goblin]

those are all good points, but I'm not sure if everything needs to be for everyone. its not as if we have difficulty settings for books or movies to make them easier to watch or read, we just kind of accept some things are not for everyone on those.

like if a bunch of you can't play Elden Ring or Dark Souls....okay whatever. thats fine and valid. go find something to move on with your life, be happy with whatever does make you happy, don't try to force yourself into being happy with things that don't. given the soulslike's entire point is to achieve mastery over something that won't just give it to you and has legit made it a fun experience a lot of people when previously such a thing wasn't there, a difficulty setting might be against the point of the genre now.


on the flipside, games WITH easy mode include things like Doom Eternal. I played easy mode on that.....because its the only mode where I can get far at all because its brutal and incredibly fast, its fun but makes me a rush every time I fought a particularly long battle as I just fought to survive in a frenzy. I still died a lot and honestly playing a soulslike is relatively relaxing compared to that. like I'd rather play a soulslike over constantly playing Doom Eternal because Doom Eternal is much more demanding to me than Elden Ring, even on easy mode. easy is relative and subjective. some games should be hard and not fan created, because not every game needs to be an introduction or a gateway. some things should be allowed to be spicier food once you've gotten tired of the lighter meals.

So what's the difference between Easy node on Doom Eternal being a good thing, but a Fromsoft game having an Easy mode being, apparently, not a good thing? To me the point of a shooter is to push myself into systems mastery and challenge my ability, so I generally play on Hard, and never under Normal. Sure sometimes I get stuck and need to retry a bunch of times, but that's the best part, and the reason I don't play on Easy.

Would you think it's valid for me to say playing Doom on easy is missing the point, that there shouldn't even be an Easy because it just dilutes the game. Sure that keeps some people put, but if you aren't willing to put in the time to learn how to play on the equivalent of Hard, well that's fine guess the game isn't for you?

Because that's basically what you are arguing. It would carry a lot more water if you're willing to lose experiences you enjoy, rather than barring other people from enjoyment.

(To be clear, I believe none of those those things, and firmly endorse Easy mode if that's how you want to play. Shooters are hard, modes that let more people enjoy chainsawing demons are good.)

[Lord Raziere]

Would you think it's valid for me to say playing Doom on easy is missing the point, that there shouldn't even be an Easy because it just dilutes the game. Sure that keeps some people put, but if you aren't willing to put in the time to learn how to play on the equivalent of Hard, well that's fine guess the game isn't for you?

Because that's basically what you are arguing. It would carry a lot more water if you're willing to lose experiences you enjoy, rather than barring other people from enjoyment.

(To be clear, I believe none of those those things, and firmly endorse Easy mode if that's how you want to play. Shooters are hard, modes that let more people enjoy chainsawing demons are good.)

Let me think about this.....

I don't like the way you put it, makes me feel uncomfortable mostly. Thing is, I'm not sure if a soulslike that is easy would look like? thats my issue. I'm open to the possibility of one, as I said before, I'm not just not sure what form it would take, its just that I'm currently having fun with what is currently there and I don't want a difficulty setting for soulslikes because I don't want to be tempted to use it when I finally have a game that I can have some form of skill at instead of just giving in to an easier mode. like when I defeat a boss or whatever it feels earned, there is something there that no amount of difficulty settings can replace, and if they were to add the option, I'd want the option of being locked out of difficulty settings so I can't change them at all for soulslikes specifically and not even know what difficulty the default is I just want to play and enjoy, I don't really care about other genres.

[Rynjin]

I saw an article a while back on the subject that for once I agreed with. Not every game needs an easy mode, and "easy mode" and "accessible" are not synonymous.

I'm all for adding accessibility features. Colorblind modes, high contrast mode, even stuff like a toggle that can slow the game down. It's also egregious that many games (including Elden Ring I think) don't have fully customizable key/gamepad bindings/mappings.

An easy mode is...not that. No game needs to cater to every market and every skill level. Sometimes, the game just isn't for you. I suck at bullet hells, so I don't play them. I don't need the game to add a difficulty below easy to cater to my lack of skill in particular.

If I liked the games more, I'd put in the time to git gud at them. But I don't, and that's fine.

Conflating these two very different ideas does a lot, I think, to skew communities against said accessibility options, because for some reason so many people have decided they're the same thing and have been pushing this "Dark Souls needs an easy mode" narrative for too long.

[Kesnit]

Let me think about this.....

I don't like the way you put it, makes me feel uncomfortable mostly. Thing is, I'm not sure if a soulslike that is easy would look like?

The same game that more people can play.

its just that I'm currently having fun with what is currently there and I don't want a difficulty setting for soulslikes because I don't want to be tempted to use it

Your lack of willpower is not a reason for a game to not have difficulty sliders. I suspect I'm not the only person balking at the DS games and Elden Ring because of the difficulty. The game sounds AMAZING and I would love to play it. But from everything I'm reading, I don't think I will because of the difficulty. As I said above, I play games for relaxation and fun. Getting frustrated because I'm old and slow, or because I can't quite see what I need to do to beat this specific monster, or because I do see, but can't do it 10 times in a row perfectly, is not fun.

There are clearly people who love the challenge, and that is great for them! There are also people who take survival mode in Skyrim and make it more "realistic" and brutal. And if that is what they like, more power to them. Me, I don't play on the easiest difficulty, but it's closer to the easy than the hard end. I also have mods that make the early game a little easier. Who am I hurting by using those mods and playing on an easier difficulty setting? It isn't like other people are in my game and I'm ruining their enjoyment.

Same thing here. If people love the challenge, GREAT! Let them have it. Let them die 100 times to the monster that kills you by looking at you for more than 1 second. Me, I'm OK if the monster has to look at me for 7 seconds before I die. I am in no way interfering with the "1-second death" people by playing on "7-second death" mode.

And from a developers point of view, allowing people to play the way they want means more people will buy the game. By limiting the difficulty to "let me bash my head against the wall some more," they are locking out the people who would be fine with "let me bash my head, but put a pillow on the wall." In what world does it make sense to tell people "no, don't buy the product I put massive amounts of effort into making"?

like when I defeat a boss or whatever it feels earned,

Challenge comes in many forms. Whether you are playing on "Hell" or "Fluffy Bunny," you still have to figure out how to kill the boss and actually kill them.

[LaZodiac]

I saw an article a while back on the subject that for once I agreed with. Not every game needs an easy mode, and "easy mode" and "accessible" are not synonymous.

I'm all for adding accessibility features. Colorblind modes, high contrast mode, even stuff like a toggle that can slow the game down. It's also egregious that many games (including Elden Ring I think) don't have fully customizable key/gamepad bindings/mappings.

An easy mode is...not that. No game needs to cater to every market and every skill level. Sometimes, the game just isn't for you. I suck at bullet hells, so I don't play them. I don't need the game to add a difficulty below easy to cater to my lack of skill in particular.

If I liked the games more, I'd put in the time to git gud at them. But I don't, and that's fine.

Conflating these two very different ideas does a lot, I think, to skew communities against said accessibility options, because for some reason so many people have decided they're the same thing and have been pushing this "Dark Souls needs an easy mode" narrative for too long.

This is a fair point. Our terminology for this is very stunted because games in generally have not thought about accessibility much AT ALL.

The reality is that any proper difficulty adjusting stuff would need to be very granular, not just a "toggle easy mode" switch, but it is more than worth it to do the effort for this sort of thing. Games as a medium are uniquely positioned as "you actively have to do them to experience them" and it is I think an important thing to the medium and to creativity in general to find a way to ensure everyone CAN experience them first hand. So long as the spirit gets across, it's fine.

And as Kesnit above says; The people who usually set it to easy do that because they need to. They still need to do the thing, even with it being easier. The difficulty slider just gives them a better chance. More granularity to this allows them to better adjust their experience, and thus experience the story.

[Lord Raziere]

no, don't care.

Please don't give me the option of difficulty sliders for a soulslike. just let me play. knowing the difficulty is already too much, just let me go.

[LaZodiac]

no, don't care.

Please don't give me the option of difficulty sliders for a soulslike. just let me play. knowing the difficulty is already too much, just let me go.

I mean, just play then. You don't have to look at the difficulty options. Live your life, don't let the accessibility options for others be this thing that tears so much ire out of you.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean, just play then. You don't have to look at the difficulty options. Live your life, don't let the accessibility options for others be this thing that tears so much ire out of you.

Only if like there is an option before the difficulty sliders that say "do you want to be able to adjust your difficulty? Yes/No" and be able to say no and not ever be able to adjust it for my entire playthrough.

alternatively, given that the way difficulty in dark souls works, and the challenge class is Wretch/Deprived, the way you'd add easy mode is simply make a class thats already really high level with very powerful weapons and armor right from the start, like at level far beyond anyone achieves in a normal playthrough. here, have the Demigod class or Divine Prince Class or something, your armor and weapons are all gaudy tarnished gold stuff and all your stats are at 40, thus you can wield anything you pick up without leveling, you can try out any magic, and your Arcane/Luck is high as anyone is going to level it so your going to get any weapons or armor that you want easier than most people, picking it turns off online mode. behold your easy mode, the way dark souls would do it: you have the best weapons, armor and stats....but if you want to look like anything other a shiny golden jerk, you still have to gather armor/weapons and upgrade all the other weapons normally.

[LaZodiac]

Only if like there is an option before the difficulty sliders that say "do you want to be able to adjust your difficulty? Yes/No" and be able to say no and not ever be able to adjust it for my entire playthrough.

alternatively, given that the way difficulty in dark souls works, and the challenge class is Wretch/Deprived, the way you'd add easy mode is simply make a class thats already really high level with very powerful weapons and armor right from the start, like at level far beyond anyone achieves in a normal playthrough. here, have the Demigod class or Divine Prince Class or something, your armor and weapons are all gaudy tarnished gold stuff and all your stats are at 40, thus you can wield anything you pick up without leveling, you can try out any magic, and your Arcane/Luck is high as anyone is going to level it so your going to get any weapons or armor that you want easier than most people, picking it turns off online mode. behold your easy mode, the way dark souls would do it: you have the best weapons, armor and stats....but if you want to look like anything other a shiny golden jerk, you still have to gather armor/weapons and upgrade all the other weapons normally.

Fair, to the first point.

Not so the second point, because as established above; the issue is not one of not having the in game statistics to do it. No amount of number is going to stop "I don't have the reflexes to dodge", and that is where the more nuanced accessibility is. Also; death to easy mode mockery. **** that ****.

[Lord Raziere]

Fair, to the first point.

Not so the second point, because as established above; the issue is not one of not having the in game statistics to do it. No amount of number is going to stop "I don't have the reflexes to dodge", and that is where the more nuanced accessibility is. Also; death to easy mode mockery. **** that ****.

Okay.

But for some reason pushing for an easy mode for soulslikes....it just doesn't sit right with me. accessibility is good and all but.... I really do feel as if pushing for easy mode is going to make the game lose something unique and beautiful to it. I don't care what you think of me for having that opinion, but thats my stance. when it comes to soulslikes, I want to play the game, not on a mode of it.

[LaZodiac]

Okay.

But for some reason pushing for an easy mode for soulslikes....it just doesn't sit right with me. accessibility is good and all but.... I really do feel as if pushing for easy mode is going to make the game lose something unique and beautiful to it. I don't care what you think of me for having that opinion, but thats my stance. when it comes to soulslikes, I want to play the game, not on a mode of it.

I don't think any less of you for this opinion because I know it doesn't come from a place of "sucks to be you disabled people". You're good. And I know the argument you're making, and it's an entirely valid one! The game is designed to be played at this level, there should be respect to the artistic vision.

I just think, genuinely, that just a little note of "hey you can adjust the timing for things but this is how the creator intended" is enough to preserve that. Getting MAD at accessibility options is like getting mad they dared to translate a story so it's easier to understand.

[Anteros]

Reflex challenges are basically the core gameplay. Changing that waters down the entire experience for everyone. Not every game has to be made to appeal to every single person on Earth. That's a good thing. Homogenization sucks.

There's also plenty of tools available for people who don't want to partake in the reflex challenge portion. Summon builds, armor builds, ranged, calling a friend, etc are all MUCH less demanding. Even just throwing on a shield and blocking makes the game much easier. These tools are there, and refusing to use them simply because they aren't built in as a difficulty slider is a bit odd to me.

At the end of the day, a game like this or Sekiro that's designed from the ground up to provide a very specific level of challenge is going to be much tighter and nicer to play for its target audience than it would be if they tried to make the same game with multiple different versions to appeal to everyone.

[LaZodiac]

Reflex challenges are basically the core gameplay. Changing that waters down the entire experience for everyone. Not every game has to be made to appeal to every single person on Earth. That's a good thing. Homogenization sucks.

There's also plenty of tools available for people who don't want to partake in the reflex challenge portion. Summon builds, armor builds, ranged, calling a friend, etc are all MUCH less demanding. Even just throwing on a shield and blocking makes the game much easier. These tools are there, and refusing to use them simply because they aren't built in as a difficulty slider is a bit odd to me.

At the end of the day, a game like this or Sekiro that's designed from the ground up to provide a very specific level of challenge is going to be much tighter and nicer to play for its target audience than it would be if they tried to make the same game with multiple different versions to appeal to everyone.

True, but we're not talking about making it appeal to every person on Earth.

That's just not true. They can easily make the game exactly as it is now, and then just implement toggles or sliders to adjust things like invuln frames and damage and the like. Anything to account for accessibility, and it won't take away from the main experience at all.

There's even straight up proof of this working. Sekiro has a mod that lets the user adjust the combat speed and that's really all you need! It makes the game far more accessible for people who can't manage the reflex challenge, which is great! More people should get to play Sekiro.

[Anonymouswizard]

Reflex challenges are basically the core gameplay. Changing that waters down the entire experience for everyone. Not every game has to be made to appeal to every single person on Earth. That's a good thing. Homogenization sucks.

Nobody's asking for homogenisation. People are asking to be able to play the game and experience the intended level of challenge, not 'you must be this able to pass'.

There's also plenty of tools available for people who don't want to partake in the reflex challenge portion. Summon builds, armor builds, ranged, calling a friend, etc are all MUCH less demanding. Even just throwing on a shield and blocking makes the game much easier. These tools are there, and refusing to use them simply because they aren't built in as a difficulty slider is a bit odd to me.

Serious question, what if somebody wants to partake in the reflex challenge portion but isn't as good at it? I already tend to rely on heavy armour and a good shield in Souls games, and the end result is I eventually die to an enemy what breaks my guard eight times in a row because the developers actively want you dodging instead of guarding.

At the end of the day, a game like this or Sekiro that's designed from the ground up to provide a very specific level of challenge is going to be much tighter and nicer to play for its target audience than it would be if they tried to make the same game with multiple different versions to appeal to everyone.

Does this mean that Dark Souls would be worse if it included modes for the visually impaired? If not, why are the reflex impaired so special that they ought to be told 'no, you can't play the game because of disability or age'.

[factotum]

If I liked the games more, I'd put in the time to git gud at them. But I don't, and that's fine.

That would be a reasonable point if "putting in the time to git gud" is something that someone with an actual disability, like AnonymousWizard, could do--but he *can't*. Telling him to git gud is tantamount to telling a clinically depressed person they should just cheer up, or asking someone in a wheelchair why they don't just climb over that wall over there. Hopefully you wouldn't even think of doing either of those things, so why are you OK telling someone a game just isn't for them because their disability makes it impossible for them to play it?

I mean, I'm kind of lucky in that my preference for games has always been slow pace or even turn-based, which matches up nicely with my abilities--not everyone has that fortune.

[Rynjin]

Telling him to git gud is tantamount to telling a clinically depressed person they should just cheer up, or asking someone in a wheelchair why they don't just climb over that wall over there.

Man, it's a good thing I didn't say that then, eh? It helps to follow the conversation and read entire posts before replying.

[Lord Raziere]

Anyways, to step away from the accessibility conversation.....

Spoiler: Raziere's Quest to Find the Pvp Items: A Journey of Serendipity

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So I decided to look East Limgrave to start from stormhill shack, and ended up finding these undead catacombs full of skeletons and this assassin boss that was at like, half-health, I think he was supposed to drain mine or something but between my spirit summon and my aggressive attacks he just didn't get the chance to do....much of anything and went down easy, same place I got an Uchigatana which according to the dark souls community is the greatest katana in all the cosmos meaning I've achieved peak japanese sword already. at least until I find this games equivalent of Chaos Blade/Frayed Blade.

Then I went east crossed a bridge with a golden pumpkin head was, to these ruins where an undead mariner was killed him, got this turtle talisman I'd wear if it wasn't for the toher I was wearing to raise my stats, then I went south into the forest towards the big erdtree....

and found myself stumbling upon a big mysterious underground cavern full of clay men and ghostly minotaur cosplayers, the ceiling being this pretty cavern of purple lights that seems otherworldly, lighting a bunch of torches because I could, led me to fighting this spirit elk that shot winter at me. weirdest take on the Underdark I've ever seen. pretty sure there was this entire other section of it to explore as well, but this fantastic unearthly diversion wasn't getting me my items so I went back up into the world to continue my quest.

I went further south, got items from the lesser erdtree, then got to Fort Haight the place belonging to that guy I killed for being a pompous noble, and cleared it out because I could.

seeing this hasn't led me to my items, I then ventured back west and checked out the ruins with the planet since down in the pretty cavern I killed a plant so I knew I could kill this one, kill the other golden pumpkinhead boss (by now I've faced two of these things as normal enemies so it wasn't much of a fight) to find.....that the sorcery teacher was not there. oh right I killed her in ruins in the Weeping Peninsula. whoops. but I now I know where to go for my astrologer playthrough to learn sorcery.

not sure where to go next after that, I headed north to that arena-looking place above the bridge thing and finally found the pvp items for making pvp summoning signs and sending pvp into pools. Items that I could've found earlier if I simply kept heading north from Stormhill shack, thus going in a complete circle then a bit more to form a six. but then I wouldn't have found all the things I did, and really what a shame that would be.