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Thread: Elden Ring

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Reflex challenges are basically the core gameplay. Changing that waters down the entire experience for everyone.
    How does me lowering the difficulty in any way affect you playing the game?

    Not every game has to be made to appeal to every single person on Earth.
    And no one is expecting that every person love and play every game. Personally, I hate platformers. But I know there are people who love them.

    The issue here is that this game (and games like it) DO appeal to a lot of people, but those people either cannot or will not play because they physically cannot do what the game requires or do not want to deal with the frustration that comes with the extreme difficulty.

    As I said above, in what world does it make sense for a developer to say "no, don't buy the product I put massive amounts of effort into making"?

    There's also plenty of tools available for people who don't want to partake in the reflex challenge portion. Summon builds, armor builds, ranged,
    So people who are disabled should not be expected to experience the entire game? They can only play these certain ways, regardless of what they want.

    calling a friend,
    Sure, my friends (most of whom don't have the game) are going to drop what they are doing to come help me play a game that (to be honest) I would rather be playing alone.

    Even just throwing on a shield and blocking makes the game much easier. These tools are there, and refusing to use them simply because they aren't built in as a difficulty slider is a bit odd to me.
    Because you are telling people you do not believe they have the right to play and enjoy a game that they own in the way they want to play it. Why should anyone be limited to just a few options when the game offers so much more?

    At the end of the day, a game like this or Sekiro that's designed from the ground up to provide a very specific level of challenge is going to be much tighter and nicer to play for its target audience than it would be if they tried to make the same game with multiple different versions to appeal to everyone.
    I'm going to go back to the question I asked above. How does me lowering the difficulty in a single-player game in any way affect you playing that game?
    Last edited by Kesnit; 2022-03-02 at 05:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    There is an item to invade worlds like a nasty lad, and an item to put down an honourable "come fight this!!!!!!" sign. I think I found both but the one problem of a game like THIS is that... **** if I remember where girl.
    So the option to invade another world only sends you to worlds where there are at least two co op players. So if you chose to go looking for that fight you will always be ad a disadvantage. As for where
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    The Forrest of Whatever to the South East has a vendor who sells the single use options and the multi use one is way further in. The "come fight me" button is from the NPC invader in the Round Table area.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Serious question, what if somebody wants to partake in the reflex challenge portion but isn't as good at it? I already tend to rely on heavy armour and a good shield in Souls games, and the end result is I eventually die to an enemy what breaks my guard eight times in a row because the developers actively want you dodging instead of guarding.
    There's a weapon art or maybe a spell that gives your shield a bajillion power. You can L2 literally any attack. I don't know the name or it, but I saw a video of a spellblade completely cancelling the bow-and-arrow giant. The arrow (which is bigger than a tree) just pushes him back a bit and eats a chunk of stamina, but there was no guard break or recovery time.

    I'm not offering this as a solution. Just that there's a way to shield through the big hits.
    Last edited by Burley; 2022-03-02 at 10:38 AM.
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    Re: Game difficulty

    I feel like Soulsborne could take some notes from Atlus on difficulty options (using Atlus as a comparison point d/t the notoriously hard nature of their games). SMT games and Etrian Odyssey games both have various difficulty options (easy, normal, hard, EXTRA HARD), and you can only choose EXTRA HARD at start, and if you bail on it later cannot get back to without starting over or getting to newgame+. There's also a fair amount of DLC for their games providing various options for reduced difficulty (easier xp, money, skills), or extra challenges (bonus bosses and dungeons from hell).

    Granted its a fair bit easier to balance various difficulties in turn based RPGs, than an action game I would assume, but having a locked in difficulty option from the start for soulsborne games seems a decent option, say From Software Hard and adjust options as needed mode.


    On Elden Ring:
    Much as I'm enjoying spamming magic at any/everything that moves, really need to find a magic seller so I can expand my spell selection beyond Magic Missile, Magic Blade, and Glowy light.

    Started making my way though Stormveil castle yesterday, and with the huge sense of scale they've managed to work into the game, both loving and hating the sense of vertigo some places are giving me. My fiance has been quite entertained watching me creep around the ledges and edges and hearing my yelps and comments of trepidation.

    Also found the land of dragons, and had a whole lot of wild button mashing as I noped my way past the dragons every 10 feet looking for a site of grace (if I've already been there once, might as well make it easy to get back to).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    PvP is 100% opt-in in Elden Ring. You have to pop an item to enable invasions.
    Beautiful. I knew I loved this soulslike.

    I mean, sure I can just play offline, but I like reading the funny messages from other players and seeing somebody's ghost teabagging the bandit that just tried to gank me, dammit.

    ("Something incredible ahead!" smeared in a bloodstain in front of a fatal drop never gets old.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Sort of. Elden Ring has interestingly flipped it around. There are buffs you can collect which use a consumable resource to give you a buff until you die. In a way this is the same thing, but it doesn't FEEL the same, you know?
    I'm reminded of how WoW rebranded their "XP penalty for playing too long" into "rested XP buff for taking time off from the game" and playtesters absolutely loved it despite the two mechanics being 100% identical under the hood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Beautiful. I knew I loved this soulslike.

    I mean, sure I can just play offline, but I like reading the funny messages from other players and seeing somebody's ghost teabagging the bandit that just tried to gank me, dammit.
    You can still get "invaded" by NPCs, though. They aren't anywhere close to players in difficulty, and this game seems to have a lot of enemies that'll jump off a cliff or building to ambush you, so, being invaded isn't a big surprise, since the game warns you that it's happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    You can still get "invaded" by NPCs, though. They aren't anywhere close to players in difficulty, and this game seems to have a lot of enemies that'll jump off a cliff or building to ambush you, so, being invaded isn't a big surprise, since the game warns you that it's happening.
    Not to mention, at least the one I ran into so far, Spawned in the doorway of a building that was glowing ominously red. Was rather expecting Bad News just from the look of the place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookieetank View Post
    Not to mention, at least the one I ran into so far, Spawned in the doorway of a building that was glowing ominously red. Was rather expecting Bad News just from the look of the place.
    Was that the one that was guarding the item that lets you invade other worlds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    Was that the one that was guarding the item that lets you invade other worlds?
    Dunno, haven't been able to beat the magic dodging jerk yet. Its right near the entry to Caelin though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    This is an image of Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses engraved in sandstone. Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses is leaving Trotknives. Trotknives is on fire and full of goblins. This image refers to the destruction of Trotknives in late winter of 109 by Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    You can still get "invaded" by NPCs, though. They aren't anywhere close to players in difficulty, and this game seems to have a lot of enemies that'll jump off a cliff or building to ambush you, so, being invaded isn't a big surprise, since the game warns you that it's happening.
    I'm totally fine with NPC invaders. That's still PvE, even if they dodgeroll a bit more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Beautiful. I knew I loved this soulslike.

    I mean, sure I can just play offline, but I like reading the funny messages from other players and seeing somebody's ghost teabagging the bandit that just tried to gank me, dammit.

    ("Something incredible ahead!" smeared in a bloodstain in front of a fatal drop never gets old.)
    I feel it will be better in a few months once the popularity tones down.

    Right now, every friggin surface is covered in the same 3 messages. Occasionally placed right in front of ladders. Getting an actually fun or useful message once in every fifty mostly just makes me stop reading them at all.

    Also random spoiler question.

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    Anyone know if it's possible to save Irina? When I got halfway through that bit of quest, I got ganked mid-conversation with her dad. So I wasn't certain if he gave me a clue how to save her or not. I tried to go back and see if he had more to say, but he just wasn't there. And at the end of the quest, Irina is dead. Did I miss something, or is she doomed regardless?
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2022-03-02 at 12:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I feel it will be better in a few months once the popularity tones down.

    Right now, every friggin surface is covered in the same 3 messages. Occasionally placed right in front of ladders. Getting an actually fun or useful message once in every fifty mostly just makes me stop reading them at all.

    Also random spoiler question.

    Spoiler: Weeping Peninsula
    Show
    Anyone know if it's possible to save Irina? When I got halfway through that bit of quest, I got ganked mid-conversation with her dad. So I wasn't certain if he gave me a clue how to save her or not. I tried to go back and see if he had more to say, but he just wasn't there. And at the end of the quest, Irina is dead. Did I miss something, or is she doomed regardless?
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    Don't believe so, I had already gotten the fast travel points near her dad when I met her so I ran over to him and then directly to the boss then back to him then back to her fairly quickly and she was still dead. Short of making that whole run without a single death or something weird like that I don't think it can be done. I do wonder if beating that boss and showing him the sword without ever dealing with her might do it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    How does me lowering the difficulty in any way affect you playing the game?
    Because them spending a ton of development time making various versions of the game is going to greatly water down the content as opposed to having one tightly tuned version. It's a series based around incredibly tightly tuned combat. They can't just turn a health slider.


    And no one is expecting that every person love and play every game. Personally, I hate platformers. But I know there are people who love them.

    The issue here is that this game (and games like it) DO appeal to a lot of people, but those people either cannot or will not play because they physically cannot do what the game requires or do not want to deal with the frustration that comes with the extreme difficulty.
    No they don't. This game is made to appeal to people who enjoy difficulty. That's not what you're looking for. It's a different genre. There are similar elements to other genres that you do enjoy though (fantasy setting, combat, etc.) but the fact that you have to ask for this game to be completely redesigned for you to play it means that it doesn't actually appeal to you.
    As I said above, in what world does it make sense for a developer to say "no, don't buy the product I put massive amounts of effort into making"?
    One where they care more about their vision and delivering an excellent product for their fans than appealing to everyone and making the most amount of money possible. Personally, I find that admirable.

    So people who are disabled should not be expected to experience the entire game? They can only play these certain ways, regardless of what they want.
    People who are disabled find it more difficult to experience lots of things. It sucks, but that's life. Their disability is not the developer's fault, and they aren't morally obligated to try to appeal to everyone. It's a video game, not a public service. Not everyone has an inherent right to it. There are plenty of things I'd like to do but can't. Should I go yell at my local rock-climbing gym because my shoulder doesn't work like it used to? Should I get mad at the local Italian restaurant because I have GERD and don't get to experience their pasta? This is absurd.
    Sure, my friends (most of whom don't have the game) are going to drop what they are doing to come help me play a game that (to be honest) I would rather be playing alone.
    It's completely trivial to find someone to help you with a boss. It's one button press and it's built right into the game.

    Because you are telling people you do not believe they have the right to play and enjoy a game that they own in the way they want to play it. Why should anyone be limited to just a few options when the game offers so much more?
    You have a right to do anything you want. You don't have a right to succeed or even enjoy those things though. That's up to you personally. I don't enjoy platformers, but I'm not going to petition Nintendo to start making Mario games with alternate levels that are straight lines so I can join the experience.

    I'm going to go back to the question I asked above. How does me lowering the difficulty in a single-player game in any way affect you playing that game?
    I would be fine with them adding a difficulty slider to give mobs less HP or whatever, but most people who complain about the difficulty wouldn't be happy with that. The core issues are still going to be there. The game is about reaction times and pattern recognition. You can't really alter those elements much without completely redesigning each encounter multiple times, or changing the core gameplay mechanic. It's a huge resource sink, and it would definitely effect the quality of the original product.

    Also, if you truly want to play in single player you can always play offline with cheats enabled. No one is going to know, and no one who matters would judge you for it anyway. I'm certainly not above enabling cheats to remove tedious aspects of games I'd otherwise love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Nobody's asking for homogenisation. People are asking to be able to play the game and experience the intended level of challenge, not 'you must be this able to pass'.
    Well....that already exists. You are able to play the game and experience the intended level of challenge. That's exactly what's happening.


    Serious question, what if somebody wants to partake in the reflex challenge portion but isn't as good at it? I already tend to rely on heavy armour and a good shield in Souls games, and the end result is I eventually die to an enemy what breaks my guard eight times in a row because the developers actively want you dodging instead of guarding.
    It sounds like you're describing my own gameplay. I suck, and regularly spend 10+ tries on a mini boss and way more on a regular boss. I managed to get stuck on bosses in Sekiro for days at a time. I watched a pro gamer grind his face into the Tree Sentinel boss and die at least 50 times before he beat it. That's what these games are about.

    Does this mean that Dark Souls would be worse if it included modes for the visually impaired? If not, why are the reflex impaired so special that they ought to be told 'no, you can't play the game because of disability or age'.
    One of those things is fairly trivial to implement with little development time, and the other requires revamping the entire game for multiple different levels of difficulty.

    And yeah, absolutely. A lot of people can't do certain things they'd enjoy because of disability. It's just a matter of where on the sliding scale you want to put that line. Adding a color blind mode is reasonable. Remaking the game in braille is not.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-03-02 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Elden Ring

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Because them spending a ton of development time making various versions of the game is going to greatly water down the content as opposed to having one tightly tuned version. It's a series based around incredibly tightly tuned combat. They can't just turn a health slider.


    No they don't. This game is made to appeal to people who enjoy difficulty. That's not what you're looking for. It's a different genre. There are similar elements to other genres that you do enjoy though (fantasy setting, combat, etc.) but the fact that you have to ask for this game to be completely redesigned for you to play it means that it doesn't actually appeal to you.

    One where they care more about their vision and delivering an excellent product for their fans than appealing to everyone and making the most amount of money possible. Personally, I find that admirable.

    People who are disabled find it more difficult to experience lots of things. It sucks, but that's life. Their disability is not the developer's fault, and they aren't morally obligated to try to appeal to everyone. It's a video game, not a public service. Not everyone has an inherent right to it. There are plenty of things I'd like to do but can't. Should I go yell at my local rock-climbing gym because my shoulder doesn't work like it used to? Should I get mad at the local Italian restaurant because I have GERD and don't get to experience their pasta? This is absurd.

    It's completely trivial to find someone to help you with a boss. It's one button press and it's built right into the game.

    You have a right to do anything you want. You don't have a right to succeed or even enjoy those things though. That's up to you personally. I don't enjoy platformers, but I'm not going to petition Nintendo to start making Mario games with alternate levels that are straight lines so I can join the experience.

    I would be fine with them adding a difficulty slider to give mobs less HP or whatever, but most people who complain about the difficulty wouldn't be happy with that. The core issues are still going to be there. The game is about reaction times and pattern recognition. You can't really alter those elements much without completely redesigning each encounter multiple times, or changing the core gameplay mechanic. It's a huge resource sink, and it would definitely effect the quality of the original product.

    Also, if you truly want to play in single player you can always play offline with cheats enabled. No one is going to know, and no one who matters would judge you for it anyway. I'm certainly not above enabling cheats to remove tedious aspects of games I'd otherwise love.
    They very much could just let you access a slider for health and stuff. Some enemies don't start with full health, for example, and it'd definitely be a bugfix/devcode tool they'd make use of to make sure drops drop correctly.

    People like things for more reasons than mechanics. While I quite enjoy Dark Souls mechanically, the artistic design of the game is what really is drawing me in. If it was all blank stone and untextured models, I wouldn't care if the mechanics are good. People like things for different things.

    "It sucks but that's life". Do you have glasses? Do you have any sort of medication you have to take? Do you have chapstick for dry lips? This mentality, that "disabled people have to just learn to live with it, society shouldn't help them" is absolute inhumane trash and you know it. And just so we're clear: here is a GERD friendly italian cuisine recipe so you can experience it if you'd like. So go ahead and tell me it's absurd, or go make yourself some pasta and cool down a bit.

    Nintendo absolutely has put in accessibility options into their platforming games for players. The super suits, platform assist modes, and so on. As well, you're missing a point here. You don't like platformers. But someone might love them, and not have the motorfunction to be able to play them due to age or injury or circumstance. So something in place to help them is important.

    It would not cost any resources at all to allow for a "slow down the action by this much" slider. It would not eat into anything else core to the game.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2022-03-02 at 02:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    They very much could just let you access a slider for health and stuff. Some enemies don't start with full health, for example, and it'd definitely be a bugfix/devcode tool they'd make use of to make sure drops drop correctly.
    And I'd be fine with that. I don't think it would actually solve the problem, but I'm not arguing against it. If that's truly all you want then just download wemod and play in offline mode. It has a slider for player damage and defense. It's completely free is trivial to use. I'll also personally vouch for its safety. I use it all the time for other games to alter game speed. Obviously if you go online with cheats active you'll risk being banned though. You can also use it to alter game speed.

    If you're demanding to play in online mode with other players who are stuck with harder mechanics while you have it easy.....just....no.

    People like things for more reasons than mechanics. While I quite enjoy Dark Souls mechanically, the artistic design of the game is what really is drawing me in. If it was all blank stone and untextured models, I wouldn't care if the mechanics are good. People like things for different things.
    You're perfectly welcome to use a mod, a cheat, stream, or whatever and enjoy the art while not engaging with the gameplay. The gameplay is what you're specifically asking to be changed.
    "It sucks but that's life". Do you have glasses? Do you have any sort of medication you have to take? Do you have chapstick for dry lips? This mentality, that "disabled people have to just learn to live with it, society shouldn't help them" is absolute inhumane trash and you know it. And just so we're clear: here is a GERD friendly italian cuisine recipe so you can experience it if you'd like. So go ahead and tell me it's absurd, or go make yourself some pasta and cool down a bit.
    You realize that you're talking about a video game right? Not public health care? Not public accessibility. Video games. The analogues to any of your examples would be....any other video game that doesn't pride itself on being difficult due to reaction challenges.
    Nintendo absolutely has put in accessibility options into their platforming games for players. The super suits, platform assist modes, and so on. As well, you're missing a point here. You don't like platformers. But someone might love them, and not have the motorfunction to be able to play them due to age or injury or circumstance. So something in place to help them is important.
    Mods will exist soon enough if they don't already. Cheats certainly already exist. Alternate gameplay methods involving summons, ranged, magic, etc are similar enough to your examples of super suits to pass.
    It would not cost any resources at all to allow for a "slow down the action by this much" slider. It would not eat into anything else core to the game.

    I very much doubt that's true, or that it would be fun to play. You can alter game speed easily enough, but making it playable or fun at that speed is another matter. The game already moves at a snail's pace 90% of the time. I can't imagine trying to play it even slower would actually be enjoyable. If you just want to alter game speed though, I believe wemod does that as well. I can't attest as to how well it works.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-03-02 at 02:24 PM.

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    Can we just... ditch the tiresome "git guddery" debate that pops up every time From Software releases something?
    (I'd link to the latest Jimquisition on this very topic but she gets a bit sweary about it, and understandably so.)

    People play games for lots of reasons - and while Challenge is certainly a core aesthetic of the Soulslike genre, it's not the only aesthetic. Nor is Challenge a binary between easy and hard, where adding even one accessibility option immediately shunts the game into the former bucket. (Hell - Elden Ring, like the franchise's previous entries, does actually have difficulty modes in the form of your starting class and keepsake.)

    You could argue that the entire franchise from Demons Souls has been a long road of becoming incrementally more accessible over time; Elden Ring is the least punishing one yet, and it hasn't hurt the games' appeal or success.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Elden Ring

    So as much as I kind of want to talk about Elden Ring the accessibility issue is just the thread for the moment I guess so I'm gonna chime in at no one in particular. Like they said in that interview I mentioned, Miyazaki sees the specific level of difficulty and mechanical interactions as a, potentially even the, goal of the game and the core experience and a key part of that is literally everyone playing it gets the same in game tools and challenges with no differences. They don't do difficulty levels because it doesn't fit their vision, and not everything exists for everyone even if they might otherwise be a fan or like the genre or medium in general. I love horror movies and games, if it has a clown in it I'm dead. And not funny hahah "clowns are creepy" I mean when I was younger and had less of a handle on it I literally had a panic attack once had a panic attack at a public park because I got startled by a birthday clown passing out balloon animals. FOMO is a bitch though so it really really does suck when everyone is talking about IT as the Next Big Thing movie they all like, or when horror aficionados and people who's opinion I'm inclined to believe tell me that Terrifier is an instant classic in it's genre, or when Baskets is pretty much Zach Galifianakis' best piece of work and I have to spend the entire time watching it on edge and just a little miserable. Those things are great, those things ultimately aren't for me because they wanted to do something artistically that just happened to exclude me from them.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2022-03-02 at 02:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Can we just... ditch the tiresome "git guddery" debate that pops up every time From Software releases something?
    (I'd link to the latest Jimquisition on this very topic but she gets a bit sweary about it, and understandably so.)

    People play games for lots of reasons - and while Challenge is certainly a core aesthetic of the Soulslike genre, it's not the only aesthetic. Nor is Challenge a binary between easy and hard, where adding even one accessibility option immediately shunts the game into the former bucket. (Hell - Elden Ring, like the franchise's previous entries, does actually have difficulty modes in the form of your starting class and keepsake.)

    You could argue that the entire franchise from Demons Souls has been a long road of becoming incrementally more accessible over time; Elden Ring is the least punishing one yet, and it hasn't hurt the games' appeal or success.
    Just don't participate in the parts of the discussion that don't appeal to you? Saying let's not talk about it and then giving your opinion anyway just seems like you want the last word.

    Redesigning combat from the ground up to be less reliant on reaction time is a far different task than adding a few stat points or a starting item that does 1/15th of an enemy boss's health bar.

    It's not even about "git gud" because personally I'm terrible. I've never finished any Souls game except Sekiro. I always get tired of grinding my head against bloated health bars and floaty combat mechanics before I get through one. (seriously, why would you bind dodge to RELEASING the button instead of pressing it? So frustrating) It doesn't mean the series needs to change to appeal to me though.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-03-02 at 02:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    You realize that you're talking about a video game right? Not public health care? Not public accessibility. Video games. The analogues to any of your examples would be....any other video game that doesn't pride itself on being difficult due to reaction challenges.
    Entertainment and enjoyment is a vital part to existence. And I have examples of people who love games but are unable to beat them due to things like reaction challenges, and it sucks.

    But I agree. This conversation is tedious because ultimately no one will ever be moved. I do recommend the pasta (and that site) though, it might help you enjoy yourself a little.

    Anyway I ****ing love this game. It's so good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    So as much as I kind of want to talk about Elden Ring the accessibility issue is just the thread for the moment
    Sorry about that, I originally mostly wanted to know of the Cool Game I Want To Play had features that might help me play it and get a similar level of challenge to the average person. I wasn't going to reply until people began suggesting 'easy mode is doing XYZ' and listing things that don't help with the way I like to play Dark Souls games (a girl with a sword, shield, light enough armour to quickroll, and little else). Later on it got to the suggestion that the game should mock me for being disabled, and I just gave up.

    Honestly, I don't mind if FromSoft decides that certain accessibility features limit certain online features as long as they're 100% honest about it, and would fully support a 'you can't change accessibility features when it gets hard' mode (hell, have that be the default, anybody who needs the features will likely discover it quickly and restart).

    And let's be honest: Dark Souls has dabbled in adding in difficulty modes before. Dark Souls 2 had the Company of Champions, a hard mode disguised as a Covenant that increased enemy stats and disabled jolly cooperation. So while I'm not sure if they repeated the idea in DS3 or Elden Ring there is precedent for adding optional difficulty modes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Just don't participate in the parts of the discussion that don't appeal to you? Saying let's not talk about it and then giving your opinion anyway just seems like you want the last word.
    Nah, I actually don't care about the last word. And my suggestion wasn't "let's not talk about it" so much as it was "you're probably not going to convince each other, this debate crops up ad nauseam, but even if you're against a difficulty slider in Souls games they have been getting more accessible over time anyway."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    anyways, to continue my efforts of staying away from the accessibility discussion because I've already said my two cents....

    I've discovered that you can dual-wield halberds in this game. they have their own dual-wield attack chain and everything. its a bit slow but.....its there. dunno if thats been there since dark souls, but its a thing. I think I may need to check how much is truly dual-wieldable in this game.

    also crossbows are basically a side arm you shoot from the hip in this game, at least if you put in your left hand, which is real cool, makes me feel like I'm being a pirate with a pistol in one hand and a cutlass in the other and if I can find some somber smithing stones for the crossbow I have I can see myself mixing ranged and melee combat for some fun times. wait....if I find the merchant with the crossbow I passed up, could I.....dual wield crossbows!?

    also a comment on the weapons in general: a lot of them seem to have weird requirements, like there weapons with faith requirements in addition to str and dex, a couple with arcane requirements, I think Fromsoft is trying to discourage pure Dex, Str and/or Quality builds. like I was set on a DEX/Arcane build but the fact that to wield some of these cool weapons requires Strength is making invest in it a little for the stuff that is dex-based. thankfully I have Radagon's Scarseal to ease the investment needed.

    also I feel bad for the merchants in his game, the more I find, the more they are either lonely, scared, forgotten or clearly haven't interacted with people in a long time. like I feel less like I'm bartering with a merchant and more bargaining with an apocalypse survivor over what meagre scraps they have. some of them play good violin, not sure if thats a good idea considering how many things in Elden Ring want to kill you though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    anyways, to continue my efforts of staying away from the accessibility discussion because I've already said my two cents....

    I've discovered that you can dual-wield halberds in this game. they have their own dual-wield attack chain and everything. its a bit slow but.....its there. dunno if thats been there since dark souls, but its a thing. I think I may need to check how much is truly dual-wieldable in this game.

    also crossbows are basically a side arm you shoot from the hip in this game, at least if you put in your left hand, which is real cool, makes me feel like I'm being a pirate with a pistol in one hand and a cutlass in the other and if I can find some somber smithing stones for the crossbow I have I can see myself mixing ranged and melee combat for some fun times. wait....if I find the merchant with the crossbow I passed up, could I.....dual wield crossbows!?

    also a comment on the weapons in general: a lot of them seem to have weird requirements, like there weapons with faith requirements in addition to str and dex, a couple with arcane requirements, I think Fromsoft is trying to discourage pure Dex, Str and/or Quality builds. like I was set on a DEX/Arcane build but the fact that to wield some of these cool weapons requires Strength is making invest in it a little for the stuff that is dex-based. thankfully I have Radagon's Scarseal to ease the investment needed.

    also I feel bad for the merchants in his game, the more I find, the more they are either lonely, scared, forgotten or clearly haven't interacted with people in a long time. like I feel less like I'm bartering with a merchant and more bargaining with an apocalypse survivor over what meagre scraps they have. some of them play good violin, not sure if thats a good idea considering how many things in Elden Ring want to kill you though.
    Dark Souls 2 had an ability called "Power Stance", where you wielded two of the exact same weapon and did a special move to use both at once. Elden Ring has decided that, so long as you have ANY two weapons of the same TYPE (so, two greatswords, two daggers, doesn't have to be That Greatswordx2 or This Knifex2, it can be Knife of Stabby and Blood Knife) then instead of blocking your L1 just lets you do power stance duel wielding. It ****ing OWNS!

    You could in fact duel wield crossbows! I'm not sure if THEY would get doubled up into Power Stance but... DO report if they do because that also is sick nasty and rad as hell!

    The swords with faith or arcane requirements tend to be magical in nature. You can't use this halberd until you're at least a little godly because it's full of divine might. Can't use this knife right if you can't use wizardry, it's a knife for wizards. If it helps, most strength weapons let you double your strength number by just two-handing it.

    One of the benefits of being a merchant is that if you get attacked you have; the special stock you keep in the back room to help save yourself, for one, and for two... just call up literally every customer and they'll come protect you.

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    Default Re: Elden Ring

    Power stancing is what it’s called when you wield two items of the same type in hand that unlocks a special moveset for them. It was only in Dark Souls 2, it basically got a lot of love for style points, but often the moveset was pretty much the same for all but three kinds of weapons (going off memory here) and for most weapons was considered a style over substance thing. You often saw guys with two ultra greatswords wandering around that looked frankly pretty ridiculous, but awesome.

    It being back is pretty fun for ER though I don’t think I’ll get much use out of it. Always prefer to stay a little grounded in these games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Power stancing is what it’s called when you wield two items of the same type in hand that unlocks a special moveset for them. It was only in Dark Souls 2, it basically got a lot of love for style points, but often the moveset was pretty much the same for all but three kinds of weapons (going off memory here) and for most weapons was considered a style over substance thing. You often saw guys with two ultra greatswords wandering around that looked frankly pretty ridiculous, but awesome.

    It being back is pretty fun for ER though I don’t think I’ll get much use out of it. Always prefer to stay a little grounded in these games.
    That's what I just said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    That's what I just said.
    Correct, but I started typing that before you posted yours and didn’t check before I submitted. My sincere apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Correct, but I started typing that before you posted yours and didn’t check before I submitted. My sincere apologies.
    Fair. I only saw your post a bit after and didn't see the posting time. My bad.

    As an aside; has anyone any idea where to get the Tree Guardian's shield? Cause the cool divine shield thing he does kicks ass and I want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Dark Souls 2 had an ability called "Power Stance", where you wielded two of the exact same weapon and did a special move to use both at once. Elden Ring has decided that, so long as you have ANY two weapons of the same TYPE (so, two greatswords, two daggers, doesn't have to be That Greatswordx2 or This Knifex2, it can be Knife of Stabby and Blood Knife) then instead of blocking your L1 just lets you do power stance duel wielding. It ****ing OWNS!
    This isn't quite correct, actually. Unlike Elden Ring, in Dark Souls 2 you did not even have to wield two weapons of the same type, much less two of the exact same weapon.

    You could powerstance almost ANYTHING if your stats were high enough (to powerstance you needed to exceed the base stats required to wield the weapon by 50%; so basically the opposite of 2handing which lowers stat requirements by 50%). The Large and Great, Great and Large Club Club is testament to that.

    As far as "classic" dual wielding options went, you could also wield say a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other and activate powerstance mode, and it's bizarre it's missing from Elden Rings version of the mechanic.

    I primarily used powerstancing for the Bone Fist plus a Caestus; the Caestus is lighter but still activates the powerstance moveset, and all the damage came from the Bone Fist anyway.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-03-02 at 06:59 PM.

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    The accessibility that is missing for me in this game is the ability to turn off the auto centering camera. I literally refunded this game because I was getting motion sick trying to play it with the camera constantly moving on its own for no reason. Presumably some point in the future there’ll either be an official option added or a third party mod (like in Dark Souls 3 on PC). Guess I need to wait until then to play this.

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    ...Did you try turning off motion blur before refunding?

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