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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    Okay. So 1E is cancelled. Got it.
    The level limits for Demihumans balanced out that they started out front-loaded at level 1 with special abilities that human PCs would almost never get. Resistance to poison or immunities to certain spells, infravision, etc. That sort of thing. Humans got literally nothing other than unlimited level advancement at the back end (if your campaign/character lasted that long).
    Humans, as the new species with the short lifespans, had to be industrious and ambitious, rather than empires in decline, like the Elves and Dwarves.

    The evil races of orcs, goblins, etc. were foes in a game where Heroic characters were intended to smite Evil as part of the Hero's Journey. The differences mattered because the game was different. Now, especially in post-Tasha's 5e, being non-human is little more than a human in a funny suit. Removing stat differences (treating them as bonus points you can put anywhere, Gnomes (size S) are every bit as strong as Goliaths or Half-Orcs, etc. The Variant Human choice, but with Darkvision and better Feats.

    The gender maximum for females vs males for strength, was indeed in there, reflecting the general differences in mass in humans of the different genders. It was often ignored, and generally never came into play unless you got really lucky rolls or were going specifically for a Fighter. There was an even less-used rule granting a Dex bonus for Females, IIRC.


    "Save or Die" was a thing. Some saving throws were 1 roll determining life or death. Not everyone's cup of tea. Thankfully, character generation was fairly quick. Less tedious than some of the newer editions.

    The Cavalier and Barbarian were OP AF, IMO. Some guys who play 1e just omit UA, which would remove that.

    Some of the mechanics our moderator points out were indeed cumbersome or poorly explained. Personally, I prefer 2e for that reason.
    Last edited by BBQ Pork; 2022-03-29 at 12:44 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Forgive me if this is thread necromancy, I'm in the same situation as OP and found a lot of useful advice in this thread. When I switched from 3.5 to 5e, what I really missed was just how customizable characters were. I have looked at GURPS before, but I don't have much experience with other systems. Which systems tend to have the most "character customization"? Savage Worlds has peaked my interest, and I think I'll be checking that one out just for the combat.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Forgive me if this is thread necromancy, I'm in the same situation as OP and found a lot of useful advice in this thread. When I switched from 3.5 to 5e, what I really missed was just how customizable characters were. I have looked at GURPS before, but I don't have much experience with other systems. Which systems tend to have the most "character customization"? Savage Worlds has peaked my interest, and I think I'll be checking that one out just for the combat.
    Off the top of my head, any supers system will do pretty well, about as well as most generics. On the downside it's generally up to the group to enforce balance

    World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness are both interesting in this respect. Mortal characters are relatively customisable via the placement of skill points and backgrounds/merits, but potentially suffer from a lack of 'caster' options regulating you to mostly different kinds of normal dude. Yes there are options for hedge magic/psychic powers, but mortals are meant to be normal dudes. Both games have a number of lines for playing supernatural creatures that add even more customisation and powers (you tend to pick your rough archetype of X and then your exact powers), but the games suffer from the various supernaturals not working well together.

    WoD and CofD are theoretically very flexible games, but suffer from the fact that if one PC is a Vampire all PCs will be vampires. This is even worse in WoD because the basic rules change slightly from gameline to gameline.

    As an example in Vampire you might be part of a Clan that gets Celerity (super speed), Potence (super strength), and Presence (super charisma) for cheap, or you might get Animalism (command animals), Fortitude (super toughness), and Protean (shapeshifting). You can still buy most powers, they'll just cost more, but what you won't be able to do is buy Werewolf Gifts.

    The thing to bare in mind with Savage Worlds is that it's mainly a combat engine. Every edition I've read has limited support for noncombat characters. On the plus side, it's a relatively good combat engine.

    Fate will let you create literally anything fairly easily, on the condition that skill levels and the like are pretty abstract. It's good, but if you're used to other games it can be hard to learn the basic assumptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Forgive me if this is thread necromancy, I'm in the same situation as OP and found a lot of useful advice in this thread. When I switched from 3.5 to 5e, what I really missed was just how customizable characters were. I have looked at GURPS before, but I don't have much experience with other systems. Which systems tend to have the most "character customization"? Savage Worlds has peaked my interest, and I think I'll be checking that one out just for the combat.
    If you can wrap your head around Fate, it is highly customizable for characters based on just how the system works, but it doesn't put as much crunch behind that as many people would prefer.

    But concepts that are difficult or complex in other systems are laughably trivial to pull off in Fate.
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    If you can wrap your head around Fate, it is highly customizable for characters based on just how the system works, but it doesn't put as much crunch behind that as many people would prefer.

    But concepts that are difficult or complex in other systems are laughably trivial to pull off in Fate.
    You can play an inanimate object with only one Aspect!

    Like, you probably want something more than 'oak footstall' as a character concept, but it's much easier than in most games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Over on rpg.net there is a thread (with first post links to others) where someone is taking something that happened in one game and running it through a bunch of different systems. Rather informative, as are some of the other posters' responses.

    https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...ystems.896109/

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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Forgive me if this is thread necromancy, I'm in the same situation as OP and found a lot of useful advice in this thread. When I switched from 3.5 to 5e, what I really missed was just how customizable characters were. I have looked at GURPS before, but I don't have much experience with other systems. Which systems tend to have the most "character customization"? Savage Worlds has peaked my interest, and I think I'll be checking that one out just for the combat.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    If you can wrap your head around Fate, it is highly customizable for characters based on just how the system works, but it doesn't put as much crunch behind that as many people would prefer.
    I took a look at it. Coming from D&D it really seemed to lack crunch, but wow is it flexible. No wargaming roots to this system. I'd never really even thought a game like that existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Over on rpg.net there is a thread (with first post links to others) where someone is taking something that happened in one game and running it through a bunch of different systems. Rather informative, as are some of the other posters' responses.

    https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...ystems.896109/
    That is an awesome resource. Fairly tedious to read, and the notation needs its own explainer. But I love the idea of doing the same "scene" with a bunch of different systems is exactly what I would need to see which systems are the most interesting. I will need to take a look with the rule-books handy.

    As a side-note, I also started looking at DtD40k7e and your re-write of it. That might actually be my next system!

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    You can play an inanimate object with only one Aspect!

    Like, you probably want something more than 'oak footstall' as a character concept, but it's much easier than in most games.
    Even for less out-there stuff, it has huge flexibility.

    Wanna play a blind swordsman? Take it as your high concept and you're done - all the mechanical hooks are in place, everything you need. Just discuss how much the blindness will impact you with the table and knock yourself out.

    Wanna do that in GURPS? Take a bunch of advantages and disadvantages and skills to figure out exactly how much you want, and hope it gives you more or less the experience you want.

    Doing it in D&D? I don't even know where to start.

    THe biggest negative is probably the lack of charop game and the lack of grid-based tactical combat stuff.
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Wanna play a blind swordsman? Take it as your high concept and you're done - all the mechanical hooks are in place, everything you need. Just discuss how much the blindness will impact you with the table and knock yourself out.

    Wanna do that in GURPS? Take a bunch of advantages and disadvantages and skills to figure out exactly how much you want, and hope it gives you more or less the experience you want.

    Doing it in D&D? I don't even know where to start.
    Play a 2E AD&D Gladiator with the Blind Gladiator kit from The Complete Gladiator's Handbook. In more modern editions, I can't really help you, though.
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    I took a look at it. Coming from D&D it really seemed to lack crunch, but wow is it flexible. No wargaming roots to this system. I'd never really even thought a game like that existed.
    There's less definition and inclusion of narrative emulation elements. They're the biggest strengths of the system, but also the reason it's not for everybody.

    If you're looking for 'as crunchy as D&D 3.5' and 'lots of character options' then there's not really much. Exalted, Anima: Beyond Fantasy and Rolemaster spring to mind, while everything else with any level of crunch kind of falls short because there are just so many sourcebooks compatible with D&D 3.5.

    Want your elf Fighter to become a WoD-style werewolf? There's literally a book that includes a class for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Even for less out-there stuff, it has huge flexibility.

    Wanna play a blind swordsman? Take it as your high concept and you're done - all the mechanical hooks are in place, everything you need. Just discuss how much the blindness will impact you with the table and knock yourself out.

    Wanna do that in GURPS? Take a bunch of advantages and disadvantages and skills to figure out exactly how much you want, and hope it gives you more or less the experience you want.

    Doing it in D&D? I don't even know where to start.

    THe biggest negative is probably the lack of charop game and the lack of grid-based tactical combat stuff.
    Yeah, but I was intentionally going to an extreme. I've met no other game that handles 'I want to play a car' without any hassle, and that's including the game that Fate is based on. It can handle pretty much anything, you just need to know how to phrase your aspects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    I've GM'd Savage Worlds for the past three years, and am now looking for a new system. Main problems: a) the damage system was obviously not intended for everything it's gotten applied to, and they tried to fix it by patchwork (heavy armor, doing a max of 3 wounds, or doing a max of 1 wound for some monsters) instead of going back and rebuilding it from scratch; b) Benny flow rate is crucial but there's not enough guidance on how many to hand out; c) it was originally intended to be fast play, but adding more actions and conditions has slowed it down. All that said, it's easy to tinker with and you can customize characters pretty well.

    Wushu is light and cinematic. You add dice to your pool by narrating details. "That punch landed on my bad shoulder. I was holding Maria's bouquet in my left hand, and now the flowers fall to the sidewalk. I stagger back, fetching up against the brownstone wall, outside the illumination of the streetlight. I surreptitiously ready my sap and wait for Weasel Mick to get closer" would give you half a dozen dice for your pool.

    Feng Shui 2e is also cinematic and looks fun.

    Pendragon is set for a multi generational campaign, and your character's beliefs and passions have significant effect.

    Paranoia is hilarious with the right group. I'd want at least four players and they'd have to be good with inter party friction.
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    Paranoia is hilarious with the right group. I'd want at least four players and they'd have to be good with inter party friction.
    So, totally weird here, I've seen more cooperation and support in Paranoia than in a few editions of D&D & Shadowrun. Probably a group personality thing, they weren't into actively sabotaging each other as much as getting their work section & secret society objectives done without tipping anyone else off. The one person who did try a "die commie mutant" attack got bashed unconsious, taped up, and stuffed in an out of order toilet stall*.

    * which, this being Paranoia, exploded 1d4 hours later for no explained reason thus allowing them to rejoin the group for the trip to R&D.

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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Forgive me if this is thread necromancy, I'm in the same situation as OP and found a lot of useful advice in this thread. When I switched from 3.5 to 5e, what I really missed was just how customizable characters were. I have looked at GURPS before, but I don't have much experience with other systems. Which systems tend to have the most "character customization"? Savage Worlds has peaked my interest, and I think I'll be checking that one out just for the combat.
    HERO/Champions is similar to GURPS (iirc GURPS drew a lot of inspiration from Champions) in that you build your character with points. You could build pretty much anything. In our group we had a character who got tougher from taking damage, a martial artist with autofire strength, a character with eight or so independent intelligences (each with associated clairvoyance and telekinesis), a feeble but extremely skilled 80 year old Double O agent, a New York cabbie with a Checker cab as modified by Tony Stark, a werewolf, and more. It does take a bit of arithmetic during character design and the rules are crunchy. If your players can't roll 3d6 and add them correctly (mine can't) or they find DnD5e point buy too complicated (mine did), this is a game to dream of wistfully rather than actually plan on running.

    On the other end, I mentioned Wushu earlier. There are some variants, but by default you get three traits, rated at 5, 4, and 3. You roll that number and below on your d6s to score successed; if none of your traits apply, you're trying to roll 1s and 2s for successes. Those traits can be anything you want. My character Heavenly Feather's traits would be Priestess of the Storm Dragon (for magic attacks and defenses), Exalted Countess (authority and social), and Edited The Kama Sutra (other sorts of social). Shameless Murphy, noir newspaper reporter, would have Can Take a Beating, Gift of Gab, and Nose for the Story. Wushu is pretty much the antithesis of crunchy.
    Junior, half orc paladin of the Order of St Dale the Intimidator: "Ah cain't abide no murderin' scoundrel."

    Tactical Precepts: 1) Cause chaos, then exploit it; 2) No plan survives contact with...(sigh)...my subordinates.

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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    HERO/Champions is similar to GURPS (iirc GURPS drew a lot of inspiration from Champions) in that you build your character with points. You could build pretty much anything. In our group we had a character who got tougher from taking damage, a martial artist with autofire strength, a character with eight or so independent intelligences (each with associated clairvoyance and telekinesis), a feeble but extremely skilled 80 year old Double O agent, a New York cabbie with a Checker cab as modified by Tony Stark, a werewolf, and more. It does take a bit of arithmetic during character design and the rules are crunchy. If your players can't roll 3d6 and add them correctly (mine can't) or they find DnD5e point buy too complicated (mine did), this is a game to dream of wistfully rather than actually plan on running.
    They're very similar.

    GURPS is better for more "normal" characters. HERO is more flexible in ways that benefit supers, but with corresponding complexity to add onto it.

    While I'm a huge GURPS fan, I'd definitely recommend HERO/Champions over GURPS for supers, even using GURPS Supers.
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    They're very similar.

    GURPS is better for more "normal" characters. HERO is more flexible in ways that benefit supers, but with corresponding complexity to add onto it.

    While I'm a huge GURPS fan, I'd definitely recommend HERO/Champions over GURPS for supers, even using GURPS Supers.
    Yeah, I'm still s bit surprised that the Girl Genius RPG used GURPS. Now it's fine for the most part, but Higgs has taken a significant downgrade in durability (26 hp, DR3, and Rapid Healing are impressed, but not quite 'shrug offa sword through the chest' level.

    The downside of HERO and GURPS is that they have a lot of preparation time to run easily. I like both of them, but I just don't have the time these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    I've GM'd Savage Worlds for the past three years, and am now looking for a new system. Main problems: a) the damage system was obviously not intended for everything it's gotten applied to, and they tried to fix it by patchwork (heavy armor, doing a max of 3 wounds, or doing a max of 1 wound for some monsters) instead of going back and rebuilding it from scratch; b) Benny flow rate is crucial but there's not enough guidance on how many to hand out; c) it was originally intended to be fast play, but adding more actions and conditions has slowed it down. All that said, it's easy to tinker with and you can customize characters pretty well.
    Fate is interesting, if you're interested in less tactical play. Quote from Fred Hicks: "Savage Worlds and Fate are both aimed at people wanting to get to the fun stuff quick. We just disagree on what the fun stuff is." Also note that Fate Point flow is very well-defined in Fate, unlike SW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    Wushu is light and cinematic. You add dice to your pool by narrating details. "That punch landed on my bad shoulder. I was holding Maria's bouquet in my left hand, and now the flowers fall to the sidewalk. I stagger back, fetching up against the brownstone wall, outside the illumination of the streetlight. I surreptitiously ready my sap and wait for Weasel Mick to get closer" would give you half a dozen dice for your pool.
    While that sounds interesting (and Fate's invokes, done right, evoke a lot of the same feel), without some kind of cap on it it seems like every action description would turn into a novel. Is that how it works out?
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Generally there's a cap, say 3-4 dice for a regular scene, maybe 6-8 for a climactic confrontation. You can get on a roll and describe an action in great detail, but you won't exceed the cap. And more likely you'll run out of creativity at some point and struggle to make five details. If I was running it, I'd aim for two hour sessions so I don't have a glassy eyed player saying "I ... hit him. Uh...really hard. Uh...inna mouth." (Counts fingers, calculates that he's got three details so far, sighs) "With...my fist, I guess."
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    Come to the DARK SIDE - play 1E AD&D. The D&D that actually made D&D popular.
    not really. If you look at the sales figures (I recently read a book that covered all of the financial and lawsuit shenanigans, which included sales figures) Basic, B/X, and BECMI really got the game to explode by getting into the toy stores with those attractive boxes that looked like other game boxes. And, the game was a nicely scrubbed clean up of the original game.

    Which is not to say that AD&D 1e wasn't awesome, it was. It sure grew the game, and those hard bound books (all writing style criticisms considered) I still have on my shelf. The verisimilitude engaged in as regards strength limitations (which Mark complains about) did not get in the way of fun any more than level limits for non-humans did. But 1e was a bit harder to pick up as a game for a new comer than Basic or B/X were. Cook, Holmes, Moldvay: those efforts did a lot to get kids into the game who'd have found AD&D 1e a bit much to swallow.

    IMO Mentzer's final clean up of that version of the basic D&D game was masterful.

    For the OP: if you'd like to try an AD&D 1e clone, Swords and Wizardy is a decent OGL rendering. Sorry, wrong file, I'll need to dig through all of my OSR files and find the one I really meant. OSRIC as edited by Stuart Marshall. (it includes an introduction
    "OSRIC—First Edition Reborn; Introduction and Purpose"

    You can also try out AD&D 2e, which a lot of my D&D 5e buds have shared with me has a similar feel. They skipped 3 and 4, tried 5 and felt right at home. I only played a bit of 2e so I can't say the same.

    Also for the OP: I was going to suggest Traveller, but I see a few folks got ahead of me.

    For a fun night without too much hassle, try Great Ork Gods. It's a hoot.

    Or try Scrolls and Swords, see onesevendesign.com for a one pager. Rules light, that one is.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-05-16 at 03:11 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Very surprised to see a general lack of mention in this thread of the great OSR "retro-clones" out there. Old-School Essentials and Labyrinth Lord provide great renditions of B/X that are polished and presented in a way that makes switching from 5e easy. (OSE in particular, it's something of the current popular choice for OSR systems for that reason.)

    Or on the crunchier side there's Adventurer, Conqueror, King System, which gives a really nice blend of B/X and some of the better parts of later editions, such as including proficiencies/feats for some customizing as you level, and making fighters not suck at higher levels. (Though the system is known more for its detailed rules supporting later level "domain-level" play for building castles, raising armies, crafting magic items and golems, and so on).

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicled View Post
    Very surprised to see a general lack of mention in this thread of the great OSR "retro-clones" out there.
    I mentioned Basic Fantasy!

    Also that's not really 'branching out of D&D' as much as 'playing sone different D&D'. It's why after one mention of Pathfinder the first page moves to vastly different games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Basic Fantasy and Old-School Essentials are still D&D in a way, but really a completely different game from 5th edition.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I mentioned Basic Fantasy!

    Also that's not really 'branching out of D&D' as much as 'playing sone different D&D'. It's why after one mention of Pathfinder the first page moves to vastly different games.
    OP didn't say they wanted to branch out of D&D though, just out of 5e.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    The one D&D-style RPG I can wholeheartedly recommend is LFG, or Low Fantasy Gaming. Which is not true OSR game, but includes both elements of Old school games and modern designs and combine them to get something that works very well for me and my group. It is very open to include your own design for class features and the like (up to the point that the free basic version doesn't even offer more than ha handful of examples - you are not supposed to choose a feat from a list, but either create one of your own or creatively borrow one from any other game that might fit your character. While that could probably be quite annoying for some players, I love that flexibility and regard of player creativity. For instance, the Bard in our group has the unique ability mockery, that allow him to provoke opponents into attacking her (with the specialty that any in-character jest that brings at least one player at the table to laugh is automatically successful).
    Likewise, you can use 'exploits' in combat all the time-without needing to decide if you rather try some fancy maneuver or deal damage - you usually do both) and again, this allows for some tactical freeform gameplay that I really enjoy - it makes it very easy for the players to surprise me as a gamemaster with some clever ideas and does not punish them with complex or non-diegetic rules which adds a whole level of shenanigans to the overall gameplay. It is really marvelous. It is also not nearly as lethal as most OSR games, which I consider to be another boon.

    LFG is very enjoyable to run, as well, mostly because it doesn't bother with things like "level-appropriate encounters), but offers lots and lots of random encounter tables. Adding this level of unpredictability to the game. The Coven of the Crone that have effectively become the big bads of our current campaign basically originated in a random encounter with a single hag, disguised as a friendly old lady selling apples.

    That said, Low Fantasy Gaming is, quite literally, a low fantasy gaming system, more oriented towards a classic sword and sorcery style of D&D focusing on exploration and swashbuckling action than resource management. The basic rules don't even include any rules for encumbrance; as these are only going to be ignored anyway that isn't much of a loss. But that means that the game is both quite different from old school dungeon crawling with its focus on gear and time (especially those precious torches), or modern D&D where spellcasting is mostly bookkeeping and, sadly, convenience. LFG adds a layer of risk management to spellcasting that makes it all the more precious resource and also gives magic this sense of wonder back that it quite frankly lacks in modern D&D. Playing LFG was a revelation concerning how dull, and quite literally mundane magic effectively is in 5e.

    I understand that this rather freeform, more improvisational style of gaming isn't for everyone, and that the idea that a spellcaster might do something else but casting spells is also quite unattractive to some players, but for me, LFG has more or less completely supplanted D&D 5e. It fixes so much of the issues I find rather restrictive by now in comparison.

    The basic version of the game is free; there is a bigger, more comprehensive de luxe version which includes a bit more material and a handful more character classes, including the Cultist, the best take on a priest/cleric type character I’ve seen in any D&D-style game, and the very bad Artificer, one of the most baffling addition to an otherwise quite good game.
    Play the world, not the rules. Numbers don't add up to a game - ideas do.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Another game I picked up recently is Warhammer Fantasy 4e. Amazing to the point I am going to be running it in the fall. Character creation is actually a lot of fun and can be as random or as non-random as you want it to be. You roll randomly for race and class and get an initial exp bonus(used to improve your character in this game as opposed to having levels). Roll for race, there's only a 10% you wont be human. Or you can roll and then not accept it and pick your race anyway. Roll for class, there is something like 60 classes, everything from peasant villagers and beggars to nobles, lawyers, and cavalrymen. Then you do all the attributes and bonus talents.

    Combat is fairly simple and straight forward, just using opposed skill checks where doing a lot better than your opponent's roll means you do more damage. Armor actually reduces damage instead of making it harder to hit. Critical hits are very detailed and possibly crippling or deadly. Magic is rare but not unheard of and can have bad effects on the user. And it takes place on the highly detailed, dark humorous world of warhammer fantasy's Old world which if you ever played WH Fantasy or WH Total war, its in the Empire. But unlike how the TW game has the empire but its a smallish spot in a big world, this game puts a huge magnifying glass on Reikland and the central empire.
    PCs are not exceptional. They are normal Joe Shmoes stuck in exceptional circumstances.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Not to hijack but maybe this would be useful for the OP as well, does anyone have an opinion on the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy box set as it compares to D&D/Pathfinder fare? I only have a vague awareness of GURPS central conceits but I've been getting more interested in it recently.
    Last edited by Trask; 2022-07-14 at 09:48 PM.
    What I'm Playing: D&D 5e
    What I've Played: D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, D&D 5e, B/X D&D, CoC, Delta Green

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Modern in sense of design focus. I consider any system that puts more weight in the buttons that players mash over the rest of the system as modern.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    I used to like Gurps a lot, because it is a very intuitive system where you can easily see how the intended mechanisms are supposed to work. That said, I find it a bout too heavy for the way I enjoy playing my RPGs nowadays, so I am little bit disenchanted with this old gem.
    I don’t think that Dungeon Fantasy, as written, is a particular good use of your Gurps. Sure, any character you can build in D&D, you can also build in Gurps. That’s trivial, as D&D characters are mostly defined by what they can do. However, that is not where Gurps truly shines: It is at its best when you play with folks who really like to create characters with a lot of depth, adding a lot information about who the character is to the list of things the character can do.

    By effectively predetermining which traits supposed to go into the game, you lose one of the strengths of the system. While you are normally can adjust Gurps’ complexity, realism and character elements quite individually to your table’s specific taste (within the margin Gurps provides – even the lightest level of Gurps will include a moderately complex game), Dungeon Fantasy pre-selects a lot of these choices. It is also a little bit too concerned with emulating D&D than with being actually its own thing, and while it is not bad being D&D (arguably better than its contemporary 4th edition, or any of the post-TSR editions if you want to be grumpy), it is not very good Gurps, a system that really doesn’t need classes, or levels. Also, Gurps tends to be quite front-heavy from a gameplay perspective. While you can probably create a D&D character within minutes, building characters in Gurps require a level of commitment and can be a time sink. In the actual game, the further development of the characters is a lot more organic and blends well in the background, while D&D characters become increasingly more complex.

    In my opinion, Gurps Fantasy, Thaumaturgy and maybe Low Tech or Martial Arts gives you a much better tool set for running a Gurps campaign in the fantasy milieu than Dungeon Fantasy does, as does Mythras Class Fantasy, if you want to play D&D without D&D. You can use the strengths of Gurps best when you don’t try to copy somebody else and mix and match the things you enjoy about the system. For instance, I would be a lot more confident about a Gurps: Swashbucklers and Sorcery campaign (“Magic and Muskets”, combining early modern technology and style with classic fantasy elements) than I would trust D&D to handle the same setting.
    Play the world, not the rules. Numbers don't add up to a game - ideas do.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trask View Post
    Not to hijack but maybe this would be useful for the OP as well, does anyone have an opinion on the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy box set as it compares to D&D/Pathfinder fare? I only have a vague awareness of GURPS central conceits but I've been getting more interested in it recently.
    Honestly I'd just go for The Fantasy Trip 2e over Dungeon Fantasy. It's doing the same kind of game but it's significantly simpler (if missing an option for divinely inspired PCs).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    I used to like Gurps a lot, because it is a very intuitive system where you can easily see how the intended mechanisms are supposed to work. That said, I find it a bout too heavy for the way I enjoy playing my RPGs nowadays, so I am little bit disenchanted with this old gem.
    I don’t think that Dungeon Fantasy, as written, is a particular good use of your Gurps. Sure, any character you can build in D&D, you can also build in Gurps. That’s trivial, as D&D characters are mostly defined by what they can do. However, that is not where Gurps truly shines: It is at its best when you play with folks who really like to create characters with a lot of depth, adding a lot information about who the character is to the list of things the character can do.

    By effectively predetermining which traits supposed to go into the game, you lose one of the strengths of the system. While you are normally can adjust Gurps’ complexity, realism and character elements quite individually to your table’s specific taste (within the margin Gurps provides – even the lightest level of Gurps will include a moderately complex game), Dungeon Fantasy pre-selects a lot of these choices. It is also a little bit too concerned with emulating D&D than with being actually its own thing, and while it is not bad being D&D (arguably better than its contemporary 4th edition, or any of the post-TSR editions if you want to be grumpy), it is not very good Gurps, a system that really doesn’t need classes, or levels. Also, Gurps tends to be quite front-heavy from a gameplay perspective. While you can probably create a D&D character within minutes, building characters in Gurps require a level of commitment and can be a time sink. In the actual game, the further development of the characters is a lot more organic and blends well in the background, while D&D characters become increasingly more complex.

    In my opinion, Gurps Fantasy, Thaumaturgy and maybe Low Tech or Martial Arts gives you a much better tool set for running a Gurps campaign in the fantasy milieu than Dungeon Fantasy does, as does Mythras Class Fantasy, if you want to play D&D without D&D. You can use the strengths of Gurps best when you don’t try to copy somebody else and mix and match the things you enjoy about the system. For instance, I would be a lot more confident about a Gurps: Swashbucklers and Sorcery campaign (“Magic and Muskets”, combining early modern technology and style with classic fantasy elements) than I would trust D&D to handle the same setting.
    Thanks for your input. From my research into GURPS I suspect you're right although I think that just bringing a box set to my friends with everything we need to play a fantasy game would be an easier sell and an easier starting point for a GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly I'd just go for The Fantasy Trip 2e over Dungeon Fantasy. It's doing the same kind of game but it's significantly simpler (if missing an option for divinely inspired PCs).
    I actually do have "Melee" and "Wizard" (only read, never played). I've yet to pick up "Into the Labyrinth" though. It seems like a good game, albeit a spartan in the presentation of characters.
    Last edited by Trask; 2022-07-15 at 09:57 AM.
    What I'm Playing: D&D 5e
    What I've Played: D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, D&D 5e, B/X D&D, CoC, Delta Green

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Modern in sense of design focus. I consider any system that puts more weight in the buttons that players mash over the rest of the system as modern.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Looking to branch out of D&D 5e, Any Advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post

    MYTHRAS: basically was going to be runequest 6th edition, but then made into mythras with a couple changes.

    Both of these have free to Download starter rules that cover a big chunk of the game and each are different mechanics
    Mythras is RuneQuest 6th edition, I have copies of both on my shelf. RuneQuest 6 was in print 2012-2015, published by the Design Mechanism. After the RQ licence went back to Chaosium, it returned re-named "Mythras" in 2016, and continues to this day. Mythras is essentially identical to RQ6 except for some changes to spirit combat.

    Big setting supplements for Mythras now tend to be self-contained, like "Lyonesse" and the recent superhero game "Destined". The Mythic Earth supplements like "Mythic Babylon" still require the core rulebook. Mythras Imperative is a free rules sampler which can be downloaded from DTRPG, it has the core rules.

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