spells perday and a 24 hour clock

[reorith]

while reading this thread i went to read some stuff from the srd

like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. her base daily spell allotment is given on table: the wizard. in addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high intelligence score.

does spells per day = spells usable within a twenty-four hour period? cuz if it does, that could resolve some issues without involving any sleeping between encounters.

lets say that a first level wizard with 11 int sleeps for the last 8 hours of day zero and wakes up at midnight, 0000, 12am on day one, prepares spells and goes through an encounter using her only first level spell and one of her cantrips. even if she sleeps from 0800 to 1600, she can only cast her remaining two cantrips right? even after sleeping for eight hours, she has still used two of her spells per day right?

am i missing something or am i stuck in the land of house rules or something?

[tyckspoon]

No, it would more accurately be called 'spells per resting cycle'. The wizard can recover his spells any time he has 8 to 9 hours to rest peacefully and study his books. The game's writers assumed nobody would want to sleep more than once a day, so they called it per day.

[Jack Zander]

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions

If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

I remember this number being 24 in 3.0...

[reorith]

No, it would more accurately be called 'spells per resting cycle'. The wizard can recover his spells any time he has 8 to 9 hours to rest peacefully and study his books. The game's writers assumed nobody would want to sleep more than once a day, so they called it per day.

i see

I remember this number being 24 in 3.0...

that explains some of my confusion.

/thread

[the_tick_rules]

well in 3.5 you get a full spell allotment after 8 hours of rest. now unless you got opponets that are close by and gonna sit and wait for ya the odds of a daily routine of eating, traveling, etc. plus resting, exhausting ya spells, resting again, and spelling it up again are kinda low so they wrote it as per day. but it's possible to do it.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

"Per day" means "per day" and NOT every eight hours.

A lot of people are confused about this, which results in a lot of lazy wizards, but the use of "per day" is quite consistent, so the confusion probably stems from 2nd edition or computer games.

[the_tick_rules]

really, i'll have to review my phb. i could have sworn it was per rest cycle.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I don't know what to say. I think it is a common misconception.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

The Arcane spells section of the Magic chapter starting at page 177 also only references "per day".

[Ranthog]

My groups have always handled this issue through a common sense approach. Regaining spell for wizards would always coincide with a sleep cycle (unless said sleep cycle was interrupted, in which you could later be an awake lazy bum until you could relearn your spells for the day). The limit on spells per day was set by the fact that the average person can't sleep 16 hours a day, adventure a few hours the rest of the waking day. It seems reasonable that for adventurers the "day" would sometimes be a little longer or shorter, but it should generally not deviate a ton from 24 hours. It allowed us to have a more natural flow to the game than timing everyone on an exact clock.

However, every spell casting class would follow these general rules for their "day" periods so it was fair.

[Dausuul]

"Per day" means "per day" and NOT every eight hours.

A lot of people are confused about this, which results in a lot of lazy wizards, but the use of "per day" is quite consistent, so the confusion probably stems from 2nd edition or computer games.

Computer games, maybe; not 2nd edition. As far as I know, D&D has always limited caster spell recovery on a per-day basis.

Although per-day actually results in even lazier wizards. You can still plop down and rest to recover spells whenever you like, unless your DM takes measures to prevent you or the other party members object; you just have to rest for 24 hours instead of 8, and you spend the first 16 hours kicking around waiting until you're tired enough to go to sleep.

For the sake of simplicity, I usually go with the cleric approach and assign a set time of day when caster spell slots refresh. It's easier than keeping track of when the last rest cycle was.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Computer games, maybe; not 2nd edition. As far as I know, D&D has always limited caster spell recovery on a per-day basis.

That is quite possible. I have played a lot of 2nd edition, but that is many years ago and my last experience is probably with Baldurs Gate.

For the sake of simplicity, I usually go with the cleric approach and assign a set time of day when caster spell slots refresh. It's easier than keeping track of when the last rest cycle was.

Well there is always the 8 hour limit from any previous casting of spells to account for, but other than that it seems like a reasonable approach.

[Idea Man]

I think the confusion might be based on the ability a wizard has to leave slots open for the day, then fill them up during the day, given a short rest to focus himself. It would be easy to misinterperate that to mean "rememorize when wizard stops and rests".

I don't remember ever using that ability, but it could be useful, if I ever thought of it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Wait, a wizard can DO that? Just say "I've got fireball and magic missle ready, tell me if you need anything else, and it'll be ready in an hour"??

[Kurald Galain]

"Per day" means "per day" and NOT every eight hours.

A lot of people are confused about this, which results in a lot of lazy wizards, but the use of "per day" is quite consistent, so the confusion probably stems from 2nd edition or computer games.

2nd ed has the same rule, here, as 3rd ed.

I think that it's simply a common munchkinism. Rules lawyer-ish people can easily reason that, since a wizard must rest eight hours (e.g. sleep a night) before memorizing spells, the wizard can "therefore" memorize whenever he's rested eight hours. Even if that doesn't actually follow.

[tainsouvra]

Wait, a wizard can DO that? Just say "I've got fireball and magic missle ready, tell me if you need anything else, and it'll be ready in an hour"??

If it's 1/4 of their total spells per day (or less) than it's 15 minutes, actually. An hour is for a full load.

[Temp]

...the average person can't sleep 16 hours a day...

The average person can't, but these are Adventurers, dammit. They're like college kids; they've made an art form of the common nap.

[TheOOB]

You don't need to sleep 8 hours to regain spells, you need to rest 8 hours to regain your spells. Generally speaking, you are resting while you are sleeping, but there is no rule saying you have to sleep (in fact elves don't sleep while they rest, they usually trance for half of the resting period).

Wizards do have the unique ability to leave spell slots unprepared so that they can prepare them at a later time. They must purposefully leave a spell slot empty after resting 8 hours, and then any time they can spend 15 minutes-1 hour they can prepare the spells (it takes 1 hour to prepare all your spells, 30 minutes to prepare half and so on, with a minimum of 15 minutes). Clerics and druids don't get to do this because they literally only get one set of spells per day, they have a specific time during the day they need to pray for spells, and all their spells for that day are granted at that time.

[deadseashoals]

Per day means per day. Some wizard fanboys on internet message boards have decided that per day doesn't mean per day, but I really don't know what they're basing that off of. A day is a day.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

YClerics and druids don't get to do this because they literally only get one set of spells per day, they have a specific time during the day they need to pray for spells, and all their spells for that day are granted at that time.

Divine spellcasters can also leave their spell slots open to be filled at a later time just like wizards.

A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

[Theli]

You don't need to sleep 8 hours to regain spells, you need to rest 8 hours to regain your spells. Generally speaking, you are resting while you are sleeping, but there is no rule saying you have to sleep (in fact elves don't sleep while they rest, they usually trance for half of the resting period).

The RAW does seem to dictate that if the wizard CAN sleep, she MUST sleep at least a small portion of the time.

Rest

To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

It seems to be pretty specific when it says "must first sleep". After which it then goes to mention that not "every minute of the time" has to be spent in slumber.

So I think by a truly literal interpretation of the RAW it's incorrect that a wizard doesn't need to at least doze off in order to regain spells from day to day, unless they can't because of their race or magical effect.

Of course, there are no real RAW rulings that indicate what the limitations of dozing off are.


Edit: Actually, the line "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." can be interpreted to indicate that if the wizard isn't tired enough to sleep, and so "does not need to sleep for some reason", then the exception will apply as well.

Obviously, this is all pretty ridiculous. It simply goes to show that a strictly literal RAW interpretation results in a bad game of DnD, it seems. RAI is essential.

[Atelm]

Rest

To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

I really need to take this up with my DM. In the campaign that we are currently in, I'm playing as the party's arcane spell-caster (Sorcerer), and during the last few sessions, everytime my character's rest-of-8-hours was interrupted; I was, according to our DM's ruling, forced to start the 8-hours-of-sleep again from the beginning.

[mostlyharmful]

I really need to take this up with my DM. In the campaign that we are currently in, I'm playing as the party's arcane spell-caster (Sorcerer), and during the last few sessions, everytime my character's rest-of-8-hours was interrupted; I was, according to our DM's ruling, forced to start the 8-hours-of-sleep again from the beginning.

Get hold of a fortified bedroll quick. And it says rest, not nessecarily sleep. So as long as your Sorc doesn't do anything stressful or active, ie no moving around, going on watch or making skill rolls, then there's a good arguement that they've rested all they need to. It says you don't need to be asleep the whole time.

[Atelm]

Get hold of a fortified bedroll quick. And it says rest, not nessecarily sleep. So as long as your Sorc doesn't do anything stressful or active, ie no moving around, going on watch or making skill rolls, then there's a good arguement that they've rested all they need to. It says you don't need to be asleep the whole time.

In those particular sessions claiming that would have been quite impossible, what with a half-orc cleric shouting "WAKE UP!" right next to my sorcerer.

[mostlyharmful]

In those particular sessions claiming that would have been quite impossible, what with a half-orc cleric shouting "WAKE UP!" right next to my sorcerer.

And the next night the half-Orc woke up with snakes in his bed....

If that's the problem then good luck to you. If your party doesn't get that your use and value depends on you sleeping through the night and not being a cheap target for laughs.. um... well... good luck to you...