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Thread: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
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2022-03-08, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Precedent is precedent. One can see that the road being taken will have issues well before those issues actually arise. And going back isn't so simple once the Rubicon is passed. Some slopes really are slippery. And we're seeing the effects with this, which, I'll remind you, is explicitly written as cross-setting. Not even a hint of setting-locking. And is problematic as all get out. From both power creep and just sheer jank perspectives.
And we've seen on these forums that the player-base's expectation is "if it's officially printed, it's fair game and how dare you restrict me!"Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-03-08, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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First thoughts on Heroes of Krynn UA
Just read the Heroes of krynn UA... strikes me as odd that KNIGHT OF SOLAMNIA background works better for wizards/sorcerers (training in medium armor!) and MAGE OF HIGH SORCERY for rangers/paladins (potentially learning the shield spell for the cost of a background - and some cantrips to boot!)
Edit: to clarify, both backgrounds grant feats that supply said benefits. I thought strixhaven backgrouds were typical MTG overpowered, but is seems its the new trend.
Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.Last edited by ironkid; 2022-03-08 at 01:41 PM.
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2022-03-08, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
This suggests that feats may be more common in 5.5. And while they're optional now, frankly, almost everyone uses them, and it's not like all the other rules aren't optional, either.
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2022-03-08, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
1) Lunar Magic seems fine. Seeing people talk about free metamagic - it's proficiency times/day. It's basically a few bonus sorcery points, but less flexible. It's fine. Don't panic.
2) Kender seems okay. Not for me, but whatever. They've reflavored the "steals things all the time" trait to "finds stuff in pockets that they legitimately did not steal, it's magic." Sure, okay. Seems like a race for goofball concepts, but plenty of tables like that. Go nuts. No reason this needs to be played any more toxic than any other race as written.
3) Backgrounds giving feats is bad. Even if those feats are weak. The prereq feats are pretty bad on their own, so that's arguably even worse - now only characters with a particular background want to get those prereq feats, because you wouldn't spend an ASI on them normally, so then the whole feat tree is locked out for most players. What is gained by designing it like this? Why not just delete those prereq feats and these backgrounds?
4) Squire gives Medium Armor and Martial Weapons, but no Shields. The Shield is the crucial thing, and why Medium Armor Proficiency as a feat is so good. At the moment, I struggle to imagine the character who really strongly benefits from that clause of this feat - non-Hexblade Pact of the Blade Warlock maybe?? The mount thing is probably not going to come up in most games - I have yet to be knocked off a mount in 5e. Giving an ally 1/day advantage on a save is pretty handy, but certainly not game-breaking. If you set aside the first two clauses, you would not take a feat that grants only the 3rd feature.
5) Initiate just seems like a less flexible Magic Initiate? You get to pick your casting stat, though, and you learn the spell. Still seems like you'd just take Magic Initiate or Fey Touched.
6) Divinely Favored is pretty weak, again being a worse Fey Touched or Magic Initiate, though it's interesting you can use a holy symbol as a focus for spells with a casting stat of your choice. Theoretically that means you could put a holy symbol on a shield and not require a free hand to access components or a focus, though I'm struggling to figure out who that will really meaningfully benefit. Sword and Board Eldritch Knights?
7) The feats locked behind the prereqs are actually mostly decent to solid. You might consider taking some of these if you have some extra ASIs you don't desperately need. They should just flat out delete the prereq feats and the backgrounds. Write into the subsequent feats themselves that the DM must give you permission to use this feat, leave it up to DMs to decide if a character merits membership in the Red Robes or whatever... or the DM can choose not to care because they're not playing in Krynn and the feat itself is fine. Whatever. It doesn't need the additional layer of complexity caused by imposing prereq feats, then mitigating that cost by giving those feats free via background. Just do it the way we've been doing it.Last edited by Evaar; 2022-03-08 at 01:45 PM.
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2022-03-08, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: First thoughts on Heroes of Krynn UA
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-03-08, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
You're stating a precedent has been set when there hasn't been. Your argument is that the setting specific backgrounds and feats will be reprinted in setting-neutral books, but that 'precedent' hasn't happened yet. Not in Tasha's. Not in MotM. And not in any other books we've seen snippets of.
No, a class that fits in literally every published 5e setting (Artificer) is not the same as "you went to Strixhaven university" or "you have an Eberron dragonmark" or "you are a Knight of Solamnia". You might as well propose that since humans are in all the settings that settings don't exist and it's a free for all. Shenanigans, I call on that.
What do you mean there's no hint of setting locking? It's a UA called Heroes of Krynn, not Heroes of Generic Fantasy Setting
The exception is the subclass - which mentions other settings - but that's not what you're complaining about; you're complaining about the backgrounds and the feats. Are there a lot of Orders of the White Robes in your setting? No? Then I guess that feat's probably not on the table for you.
Okay, so tell them no. I know you already do that, so you're keenly aware that it's possible.
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2022-03-08, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
I think this might be the first UA in a long time where I just don't see how this got the "presentable" mark to put this out.
The backgrounds literally come with feats. There was already an argument to be made that races starting with feats is an outlier (a long and storied discussion in itself) and we've had ample time to discuss why having powerful backgrounds is problematic (Ravnica Backgrounds) so slapping the two together with objectively very strong feats is quite a design choice.
I suppose the saving grace is that I don't see much argument for allowing these outside of the Dragonlance setting, but even then it would be a strange dichotomy to look at how effective a level 1 Dragonlance Hero is allowed to be compared to another setting. This is definitely encouraging a DM to gatekeep content or the gates have opened for a Spellcaster to take Knight of Solamnia for direct access to medium armor where Moderately Armored at least required their class to already be proficient with light armor, at no ASI cost to boot because it's from a background. At least it doesn't give Shields.
Not a fan of feat chaining, not a fan of backgrounds being a significant source of power, not really a fan of the "lol random" Kender either. The only thing I don't have any strong feelings towards is the Sorcerer subclass but it's once again highlighting the difference between PHB Sorc's and more recent designs, there's just such a noticeable power difference.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2022-03-08 at 01:51 PM.
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2022-03-08, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Lacking punctuation, I can only assume where your sentences are.
I agree that these are bad design.
HOWEVER, I would argue that using the lore of dragonlance in backgrounds are almost exactly what backgrounds are for. That said, The continuation of adding power to backgrounds as a design philosophy does not seem like a good idea to me.
The small races in Vanrichten's, Monsters of the Multiverse, and Witchlight, all have at least 30ft movement speeds. So if anything, the PHB ones need to be updated. That they didn't include the changes in the errata with the removal of all the alignment sections is frustrating.
I do think that the Kender Ace has some potential for abuse, what with being able to conjure items, but they do disappear after 1 hour. Forge cleric can also conjure objects worth up to 100gp that are permanent for their channel divinity.
I like taunt.
I don't think a. is too much power creep, if any. Other first level subclasses grant extra cantrips among other features, including sorcerer, cleric, and warlock 1st level choices. the Death domain also has the same functionality as adding 1 cantrip, and the ability to target two creatures within 5ft of each other, in addition to the bonus spells.
I like the bonus spells, it just sucks that older Sorcerer Subclasses DON'T have them. It is also a bit ranking that the lunar Sorcerer effectively has 15 bonus spells, even if until 6th level they are limited to 5 per long rest, and not the 10 that Aberrant or Clockwork have, though those two can customize their list.
Lunar boons seem tied to the lunar phase from the lunar spells choice, not the actual phase of the moon. I am not sure what DM overhead you are talking about.
I also don't like the feat chaining design, particularly free feats with the backgrounds, though I guess since the BGs don't have bonus spells to the spell lists they are moderately better than Strixhaven's BGs. Some of the features are cool, I like Life Channel and Protective Ward. Divinely Favored and Initiate of High sorcerery is similar to many of the Magic Initiate feats.
The knight feats seem fine, so long as they aren't apart of the background feature and required feat chainSpoiler: I am the
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2022-03-08, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Huh. Not exactly surprised to see so many negative responses to this, but I think it's all pretty neat, and exactly the sort of thing I'd like to have were I running a Dragonlance game.
I like the particular manifestation of a Kender's sticky fingers. It's done in a way that's fluffy, potentially quite useful, but doesn't disrupt the flow of gameplay with actual stealing. It's a neat solution to the problem this race has had since its inception as an actual player option, which is that the annoying in-universe traits of Kender (fine) translate to actual annoyance at the table (not fine.)
The new subclass is really neat. The only real bone I have to pick with it is that I think your lunar phase should be dependent on... you know, the actual state of the moons, not just how you're feeling that day. I felt the same thing about Eladrin seasons.
As for the Feat/Background stuff... it's fine. Nothing super neat to my taste, but certainly not worth panicking over. I well and truly don't mind a background feature having a little crunch behind it if it encourages the player to really engage with the world and the setting elements, like it is here.
In short, Dragonlance isn't exactly my thing, but if it were I would be leaping for joy. If they do some pre-release material for Dark Sun that fits this mold, you can bet I'll be posting up a storm.Last edited by Catullus64; 2022-03-08 at 02:04 PM.
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2022-03-08, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
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2022-03-08, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
I disagree. Unless I missed something big in the 500 Dragonlance books that came after the first couple trilogies, they're completely reworking the kender race from being mundane, innocent kleptomaniacs to misunderstood magical creatures with weird racial Bag of Tricks magic. Like, they're explaining away major parts of kender culture (communal ownership, etc) just so that crappy players don't try to steal from party members? Is anyone who wants to play a kender really happy with that?
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2022-03-08, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-03-08, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Last edited by Catullus64; 2022-03-08 at 02:16 PM.
The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
Nothing is given so generously as advice.
We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.
-Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
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2022-03-08, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-03-08, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Anyone else noticed Lunar Sorc has Death Ward as a 3rd level spell? I think its the first time I see a spell at 2 different levels, maybe it was unintentional?
I'm a moron, they gain it at 5th level, they don't have 4th level spells, so they cant cast it, but they could cast it at 6th level by creating a slot with flexible magic.
Also blanket advantage on all saving throws
All in all this cements the heavier weight given to backgrounds, which is a design with which I agree in principle. Backgrounds give 1 feat, as long as its a fixed feat, and not a "free" feat, I think thats a good move.
Feat chains is something to keep an eye on, up to now they've always been followups to background provided feats, which imply furthering your characters path, and in a way, simulate sub archetypes, wanna be chosen one of your deity, without having to be a cleric or paladin, or a few chosen subs? Take Divinely Favored od Divine Communication, and you can be a Rogue bleesed by the gods. Were you knighted by the king even though you are a Druid? No prob. As long as they follow that principle I think its ok.
Specifically though, Medium armor prof in a background sounds too strong tbh, maybe it could be light armor prof, and med armor prof in the 4th level feats.
I like Knights of the Sword's active Willpower, spending a hit die to improve a save, I've been running Indomitable this way for while.Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2022-03-08 at 02:21 PM.
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2022-03-08, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
In terms of power level it looks pretty close to aberrant mind but a little more finicky in execution. AM got UNLIMITED free subtle spell on its bonus spells, and it got 11 of them total IIRC; lunar only gets 6 spells at a time (including sacred flame) and has to spend bonus actions and sorcery points to swap between lists, AND only gets the reduced sorcery point cost PB times per day. Lunar gets one free casting of each bonus spell, which is major, but AM gets a cheaper conversion rate for casting its bonus spells with sorcery points. AM gets a powerful, cheap, short-term effect at level 14, and Lunar gets to pick a seemingly permanent but less powerful effect.
Moreover, all the lunar subclass abilities are linked to your particular moon phase, which can be limiting in interesting ways. Getting ready to sneak into the dragon's lair at level 14+? Hope you don't need Freedom of Movement, because you turn into a living flashlight when you switch to Full Moon!
From an optimization perspective, it seems likely to me that AM allows for more powerful combos. (Greater Invisible, flying, casting subtle Synaptic Static for 5 sorcery points over and over.) Lunar might be more fun because it allows for you to do some really powerful stuff if you're nimble about switching up your phase.
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2022-03-08, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
I had a reply typed out but you said it way better than I could!
On a personal note it is so intensely exhausting and frustrating to finally get design in a direction I am actually excited for in D&D, after so many years of disappointments, only to see it met with this sort of backlash. I don't fault or blame any of you for your preferences - everyone enjoys different things about the game, after all, and I certainly won't begrudge anyone their way of playing. I've just longed for WotC to stop sucking out all the wonder and magic out of the game in favor of streamlined generic rules, and if the reaction here is anything to go by, there's not even a place for that in settings books in modern D&D. I guess we won't know until this book hits the shelves for real, but my last hope for 5e was in setting books, and that certainly feels bleak now.
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2022-03-08, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Lunar Sorcerer unlocks Death ward at 5th level...?
What?
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2022-03-08, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
They already have better ways of doing the whole "important background element locked to one setting" thing. And that's not letting backgrounds give actual feats. It's actually making setting-locked things. And I'd be 100% in favor of that, even if they were powerful. They'd not see play at my table (because I use my own setting), but I'd support that design.
I don't support having things that pretend to be one thing (setting-locked backgrounds) but are actually "anyone can take this for free power". Which is what these are.
It's not the concept of setting-locked things or even feat-like things like this that I object to. It's the execution. The execution sucks. The concept is ok.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-03-08, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
You know what, my initial response was unnecessarily snide, and it completely made a hash of my point. Unqualified apology, let me say that again but with sincerity.
I don't think it's bad game design to set limits within which a particular piece of content is meant to function. They created a background option that is intended for a certain character type, and went so far as to clearly and honestly communicate that fact. This is a game meant to be used and run by humans capable of reading intent and context. If you want to ignore that intent and context when it's provided to you this expressly, I don't know that you can fully blame the developer for the consequences.
The game writers gave a piece of advice about how something ought to be run, which you are free to follow or ignore. That could describe every piece of text ever published in this game, because the only real mechanic in this game is that of human consent. If you follow that advice, you'll probably get something closer to what the developers envisioned, and if you don't you won't.The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
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2022-03-08, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Backgrounds shouldn't be giving feats. If they want more feats in the game, they should include an optional high-power game variant that does that across the board, one that can be used by any campaign (setting-specific or not, MTG or not etc.)
I'd be fine if they said something like "if you're running {high-feat variant}, Knights of Solamnia typically start with the Squire of Solamnia feat" or guidance along those lines. But packaging them in the backgrounds just makes those backgrounds extremely strong relative to other backgrounds a player could be selecting, even if they're playing exclusively in that campaign world.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
I'm not particularly sold on the idea of saying "please dont abuse these mechanics we've put out." as a substitute for actually good design. If theyre intended to be used on martials only, then tie them into something that martials have that mages dont, like requiring armor/weapon proficiencies as a prerequisite or something. If you have to ask people not to play in a certain way or the game breaks, that just smacks of laziness, IMO.
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Nice to see in these times that the market for pitchforks and torches purchases is still going strong. Also good to see lots of unbiased, totally well-considered with careful evaluation opinions on here.
Kender - It's interesting that they've turned kender into their own race instead of a subrace of halfling like they used to be, if I recall correctly. Kender Ace is sort of random, could be very useful, but also extremely pointless given how many layers of random are rolled into it. It looks like an ability that'd be used by players for a random joke every now and then. I honestly think the more overpowered parts are Brave and Taunt. Advantage on avoiding being frightened can be huge, and the potential chance at making your opponent's attacks be at disadvantage is amazing too.
Lunar Sorcerer - only thing I really have an issue with is Lunar Boons, I think its a little confusing as written, and will probably cause a lot of double-checking regarding the phase you're in and what school the spell is from that you're trying to affect. Yes, potentially you know a lot more spells than other sorcerers do, but until you hit level 6, you are stuck in a specific mode until after a long rest, which limits what you have immediate access to.
Background feats - I don't mind this, honestly. Initiate of High Sorcery is almost identical to the Magic Initiate feat, just more specific on what you get to choose from. Squire of Solamnia is a little stronger, but 2 of the 3 parts are very situational on when they apply, so that mitigates it's usefulness. Truthfully, they're not deal-breaking on their own, given how many DMs give players a feat at first level anyways. From an RP standpoint, it makes sense because both scenarios could easily be a level 1 character, maybe you started as a squire or initiate, but quit or dropped out. The later feats are rewards for continuing your training/practice.
Honestly, if anything, it sounds like you guys are mad about this stuff because it means you have to be firm with players and tell them no when they're trying to bring this stuff outside the setting they're made for. Which happens with every single new setting release, I've noticed.
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
So yes, they directly and honestly said this feature was designed for Fighters, Paladins, War Clerics, and Valor Bards.
The problem is, the feature they designed is objectively bad for precisely those characters. And really only those characters. Everyone else gets more from this feature. Their intention, and their design is at odds. And I think it’s fair to point that out. It is not exactly difficult game design to make features that benefit the groups it is supposed to benefit. Really all that takes is basic system knowledge.
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Kender seem grossly underpowered.
Love 'em or hate 'em (personally, I'm the "hate 'em" side), players who want to play Kender in a dragonlance campaign, where they are a canon race, shouldn't be actively punished.
Free metamagic sounds broken, but it isn't really free. It still costs resources because you can't use the baility at will. It's effectively the same as having more SP per day equal to your PB, but you can only use these points with certain schools.
Feat chains can go choke. One of the best design philosophies of 5e was doing away with them.
The Squire feat is a tad too strong to be given for free
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2022-03-08, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Kender seems fine mechanically, endless GP aside
Moon sorcerer look like it could be pretty great with the usual polish and balance pass, biggest thing im concerned about is the complexity and potentially the wording allowing you to spend 1 SP to get a new set of moon spells each usable once for free.
Backgrounds are fine if you took out the +feat part of each one, i would instead specify the feats are campaign specific and you get one of your choice at level 1 or just rework them as 'Krynn boons'. Instead of chaining them just set the secondary branching benefits to a specified later level. Alignment restriction i find distasteful but not offensive.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2022-03-08, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
What's so bad about it for those characters in particular? The Medium Armor proficiency is kind of a nothing for most of the suggested classes, I suppose (with the notable exception of Swords Bard, and I think Swashbuckler could be as passable a fit for a Solamnian Knight), but all martial weapons is still going to be a gain for a number of characters, and the other features both seem pretty class-neutral. None of these features are especially game-changing, which is also fine considering the feat is, you know, free.
The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
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We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
Halflings have been kender since 3e, so that doesn't plus me, much.
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Re: New UA...has Kender? Wat?
I'm pretty sure you can. 5th ed is rules heavy. It is bad form to introduce an option in a rules heavy system with a recommendation on who can and who cannot use it. Staff of Fire isn't "recommended" to not be allowed for fighters, it straight up can't be, as attunement requires the wielder to be a Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard.
Because it gives martial weapons and medium armour proficiency, which does nothing for classes that already have it, like paladin and fighter.Last edited by Boci; 2022-03-08 at 03:22 PM.
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