A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This is an extremely suspect assumption. Assuming we're talking about greater/lesser evils, you put the city under martial law and execute anyone who shows signs of illness. Even if some turn and infect others, they're not perfectly spreading in an exponential fashion. You put down minor outbreaks, execute the injured, and prevent spread.

    This takes more time, but there was to my knowledge no time crunch except for the situation at Stratholme "going nuclear' via mass spread.

    Even if the issue is Mal'Ganis orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, it is arguable that preventing the turning of Stratholme into a military asset while retaining its status as...a city, and presumably a source of wealth and strategic resources, is logistically worth the loss of an arbitrary number of smaller settlements.
    It also takes volume of force Arthas doesn't have. And remember that Mal'Ganis is not orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, he's in Stratholme harvesting the infected and the dead for the scourge. (That's the actual mission, its a race against him).

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    As far as the villagers go, we know they're plagued because they're transforming right in front of us. It's no guess at that point.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You're not thinking through the whole situation.

    Not everyone needs to have eaten the infected grain because there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.

    The people of Stratholme are dead. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:

    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

    That's a quote from Geralt of Rivia in his first published story, and because he lives up to that, because he is in a situation where he must choose between a greater and lesser evil and refuses the choice, the greater evil wins and everyone else loses (including Geralt). Uther would do the same. He would refuse to choose the lesser of two evils because he can't bear the sin of doing it and in so doing guarantee that the greater would triumph.

    And that leaves Arthas alone to bear the weight of it, and basically everything else he does in the campaign is to try and make having done that "worth it".
    Except those who are healthy can actually help contain the plague by reporting those who are sick, and helping build containment to make it so the ghouls can't mass into an unstoppable horde. What's more those killed by ghouls won't automatically turn into ghouls themselves. Also people won't all die at the same time. It'll be a steady stream of people falling sick and dying, and turning into ghouls. So the people of Strathome aren't necessarily dead, particularly if you remove the absolute quality of that last category. If Arthras isn't killing literally everyone, you might have more people to fight the ghouls, and to put down the plague victims as they are identified.

    What's more, if you aren't on an absolute 'kill everyone' stance, you very well might retain both Uther, his men, and Jainia's assistance, which pretty much doubles your force, and lets you retain a powerful archmage with good AoE spells and the ability to teleport. Plus Uther's men are elite knights who are much more capable than the average footman, or ghoul for that matter. It would only be a hopeless battle if it was literally everyone being sick and they'd all die at pretty much the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Important note: this version of the plague does not spread from person to person. People killed by a ghoul do not turn automatically; a necromancer has to animate them separately.


    Don't forget burning to death in the fires Arthas sets.
    Right. Otherwise Arthas' plan of killing them before they turn wouldn't work at all.
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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    It also takes volume of force Arthas doesn't have. And remember that Mal'Ganis is not orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, he's in Stratholme harvesting the infected and the dead for the scourge. (That's the actual mission, its a race against him).
    So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? Interesting.

    Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.

    If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.

    You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.

    For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-11-23 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? Interesting.

    Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.

    If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.

    You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.

    For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.
    Mal'Ganis can teleport, the entire city really was infected, and we don't know how big a force Arthas had at the time, so I'm unclear how this supports anything.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Mal'Ganis can teleport, the entire city really was infected, and we don't know how big a force Arthas had at the time, so I'm unclear how this supports anything.
    He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.
    Not really. It wasn't an open battle (preventing such was half the point) and they were unarmed and unarmored peasants against knights in plate who were ostensibly their protectors.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2022-11-23 at 07:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Not really. It wasn't an open battle (preventing such was half the point) and they were unarmed and unarmored peasants against knights in plate who were ostensibly their protectors.
    Yeah, it wasn't an open battle. Making it a worse overall scenario for the knights.

    Having to go house to house and street to street killing "unarmed and unarmored" peasants (who should never be staying that way long, the differences between a pitchfork and a short spear are mostly academic) is kind of a worst case scenario for a heavy armor squadron. How many peasants do you have to stack up to match a single knight in plate? 2? 3? 5? Pretty much whatever that number is, the people in town are able to meet it in a "fight or die" scenario, realistically, if Arthas really is outnumbered to the extent people keep trying to paint the scenario as.

    Killing every single peasant in town is way harder than simply occupying it.

    Of course, more realistically, this isn't a "fight or die" for the peasants. It's "flee or die". What are the knights gonna do if they scatter into the countryside? Chase them? All of them? In every direction? For how long?

    The only way the scenario works is if Arthas has enough soldiers to encircle the entire town and completely lock down all conceivable exit points. In which case, again, he has enough soldiers to perform an orderly occupation and get his dirty business done with much less hassle.

    The idea that slaughtering every person in the city was the most expedient solution to the problem is patently absurd, because no matter HOW many men Arthas has, "culling" the population of an entire city is more difficult and takes much, much longer than any other potential solution.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-11-23 at 08:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.
    Recall, most of the people Arthas is murdering are very sick, because they have been poisoned.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Recall, most of the people Arthas is murdering are very sick, because they have been poisoned.
    Seems like he'd have an even easier time wrangling them then.

    Again, any argument that reduces the resistance a slaughter would logically face reduces the resistance to literally any other action he could conceivably take by an equal or greater amount.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-11-23 at 08:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Seems like he'd have an even easier time wrangling them then.

    Again, any argument that reduces the resistance a slaughter would logically face reduces the resistance to literally any other action he could conceivably take by an equal or greater amount.
    The peasants arent an army, theyre peasants. Theyre sick, theyre hiding in their homes cowering. They dont know whats happening. There are undead in the street and their prince is fighting them, but the human soldiers are also killing peasants. They absolutely arent uniting to form some sort of defensive front against a person who is nominally their savior.

    They dont become an army unless Mal'Ganis collects them first, which is what Arthas is trying to prevent (and, incidentally, is the defeat condition for the mission).
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The peasants arent an army, theyre peasants. Theyre sick, theyre hiding in their homes cowering. They dont know whats happening. There are undead in the street and their prince is fighting them, but the human soldiers are also killing peasants. They absolutely arent uniting to form some sort of defensive front against a person who is nominally their savior.

    They dont become an army unless Mal'Ganis collects them first, which is what Arthas is trying to prevent (and, incidentally, is the defeat condition for the mission).
    So you're saying the peasants are already self-quarantining and making it easy for the soldiers to get the situation in check and take control of the city?

    Damn, that sounds like it makes it really easy for Arthas to take my suggestion, eh?

    Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.

    It is genuinely not a moral dilemma, Arthas is just a dumbass.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-11-23 at 10:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    So you're saying the peasants are already self-quarantining and making it easy for the soldiers to get the situation in check and take control of the city?

    Damn, that sounds like it makes it really easy for Arthas to take my suggestion, eh?

    Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.

    It is genuinely not a moral dilemma, Arthas is just a dumbass.
    Taking control of it and doing what with them? Watching them turn into undead then getting swarmed by an army five times the size of your hypothetical occupying force?

    The problem was never the peasants, the problem was the part where they turn into ghouls and start rampaging across the countryside, growing their numbers exponentially as the necromancers behind the plague raise their victims.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Taking control of it and doing what with them? Watching them turn into undead then getting swarmed by an army five times the size of your hypothetical occupying force?
    I explained this part already, in the very first post I made on the subject. As it turns out, an occupation does not involve the occupying force standing around with their thumbs up their asses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The problem was never the peasants, the problem was the part where they turn into ghouls and start rampaging across the countryside, growing their numbers exponentially as the necromancers behind the plague raise their victims.
    Seems like you'd have an easier time rooting out the necromancers (who could just raise the corpses you leave behind after slaughtering the peasants anyway?) if you weren't causing undue chaos such that they could move freely.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? Interesting.

    Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.

    If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.

    You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.

    For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.
    How many of those historical cities were populated with people who were turning into superhumanly strong undead hellbeasts who would tear the occupying force to shreds with no regard for their own safety?

    Was it none of them? I bet it was.

    Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.
    And again, there is no control of the populace, the populace is a bomb of undead horror with an active hostile force running around lighting fuses. Any army that divided its force to try and control the people would be slaughtered in detail by Mal'Ganis and then raised to bolster his forces right alongside the civilians, because he and his army are there in the city. Right there, doing his thing as soon as you arrive. Building up a force which will, if not countered right now overwhelm the entire kingdom (and usher in the burning legion much faster).

    There is no slow and careful way to do this, which is reinforced by the actual mission which is a race with Mal'Ganis.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I explained this part already, in the very first post I made on the subject. As it turns out, an occupation does not involve the occupying force standing around with their thumbs up their asses.
    Yeah, but your very first post also said there was no time crunch, when there are in fact two time crunches, so I assumed you didnt want to go back to something that was obviously wrong.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    And again: Arthas course of action turned out to be the "right" one almost by coincidence.

    He didn't even think about finding another solution. He didn't even ask the more experience guy with holy powers or the woman with mastery over the arcane. He didn't consider the possibility that at least some of the citizens might not be infected and/or might be resistant to the plague. The game gives us a simplified version, where you control a few dozen units instead of thousands, but it's statistically impossible for the plague to have affected every. single. citizen. And even if that was the case... Arthas had no way of knowing that. He just assumed it was so in order to justify the slaughter.

    And if that wasn't proof that he did that out or ruthlessness rather than pragmatism, then he immediately banning Uther and labeling him, Jaina and all his men as traitors is... And so is every other action he takes on that campaign.

    What makes him a ruthless tyrant in this section isn't the fact that he had to kill everyone, but that he immediately jumped to that conclusion without a moment's hesitation and without a single thought to even considering other possibilities... Callings his friends "traitors" and then proceeding to betray his own men on the very next mission is just the evil icing on the evil cake.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2022-11-24 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    And again: Arthas course of action turned out to be the "right" one almost by coincidence.

    He didn't even think about finding another solution. He didn't even ask the more experience guy with holy powers or the woman with mastery over the arcane. He didn't consider the possibility that at least some of the citizens might not be infected and/or might be resistant to the plague. The game gives us a simplified version, where you control a few dozen units instead of thousands, but it's statistically impossible for the plague to have affected every. single. citizen. And even if that was the case... Arthas had no way of knowing that. He just assumed it was so in order to justify the slaughter.

    And if that wasn't proof that he did that out or ruthlessness rather than pragmatism, then he immediately banning Uther and labeling him, Jaina and all his men as traitors is... And so is every other action he takes on that campaign.

    What makes him a ruthless tyrant in this section isn't the fact that he had to kill everyone, but that he immediately jumped to that conclusion without a moment's hesitation and without a single thought to even considering other possibilities... Callings his friends "traitors" and then proceeding to betray his own men on the very next mission is just the evil icing on the evil cake.
    Arthas came to the right conclusion because it was an artificial scenario designed specifically to force him to make that choice, which had no room for nuance or consideration. Its not a random thing, the entire way the plague played out was specifically engineered to manipulate Arthas well before he even got involved or the plague actually started. Heck, you even have to declare the actual literal reality on the ground to be impossible in order to justify calling Arthas as needlessly ruthless.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Arthas came to the right conclusion because it was an artificial scenario designed specifically to force him to make that choice, which had no room for nuance or consideration. Its not a random thing, the entire way the plague played out was specifically engineered to manipulate Arthas well before he even got involved or the plague actually started.
    And he fell and became a ruthless tyrant... And kept falling for it due to being a ruthless tyrant. What's your point? A good guy who becomes evil is still evil, no matter how he started... His story might be a tragic one, and motives might be understandable, but that doesn't make him any less evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Heck, you even have to declare the actual literal reality on the ground to be impossible in order to justify calling Arthas as needlessly ruthless.
    Turns out that basic logic often applies to fictional worlds too.

    Also I don't need to mention reality to point out that his immediate choice of the most vicious and ruthless course of action possible is... Well... Vicious and ruthless. Specially considering how he treated Uther and Jaina, and what he did next...
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2022-11-24 at 11:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    And he fell and became a ruthless tyrant... And kept falling for it due to being a ruthless tyrant. What's your point? A good guy who becomes evil is still evil, no matter how he started... His story might be a tragic one, and motives might be understandable, but that doesn't make him any less evil.
    Nobody is arguing that Arthas did not fall to evil, people are arguing that there were no other options at Stratholme.

    Cull the population or allow Mal'Ganis to claim them as a tidal wave of undead to drown Lordaeron.

    Arthas fell because he was forced into a no-win scenario and the only people who could have shared the burden of the terrible thing that was necessary balked in fear and could not act.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Yeah, but your very first post also said there was no time crunch, when there are in fact two time crunches, so I assumed you didnt want to go back to something that was obviously wrong.
    The "time crunch" is three entire days at the worst case. That's how long it takes the plague to run its course, in every one of the infected.

    And that's the lowest reasonable amount of time to expect, if everybody in the entire city somehow ate grain from the exact same shipment, at the exact same time which is...uhhhhh... unlikely, let's go with that.

    So that gives you plenty of time to kill those who ate the grain earliest and then figure out a workable plan going forward. You probably don't have enough time to track down the right shipment and all the people who bought it or anything, but you could torch the granaries and start segregating the sick from the well.

    I'm blanking on what the second time crunch was, exactly. Mal'Ganis...exists? Which is neat and all, but he quite obviously can't take on your whole army at once, or he wouldn't need the zombie army at all.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'm blanking on what the second time crunch was, exactly. Mal'Ganis...exists? Which is neat and all, but he quite obviously can't take on your whole army at once, or he wouldn't need the zombie army at all.
    Mal'Ganis is present, with a roughly equivalent force that's well entrenched (he has a well protected base north of the city), and is actively harvesting the turned. He's doing that right now as Arthas arrives.

    Remember that if Mal'Ganis takes the population of Stratholme he doesn't have enough force to beat Arthas but to wipe the entire kingdom of Lordaeron off the map as a sacrifice to the Burning Legion.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Mal'Ganis is present, with a roughly equivalent force that's well entrenched (he has a well protected base north of the city), and is actively harvesting the turned. He's doing that right now as Arthas arrives.

    Remember that if Mal'Ganis takes the population of Stratholme he doesn't have enough force to beat Arthas but to wipe the entire kingdom of Lordaeron off the map as a sacrifice to the Burning Legion.
    Except if Arthas is there, eliminating undead and preventing others from being turned, Mal'Ganis already doesn't get that force. If he wants it, he'd have to un-entrench his forces and come siege Stratholme himself. And would be facing the combined might of both Arthas's forces and Uther's cavalry.

    I think the issue some people are having is assuming that events don't affect other events. Mal'Ganis can do little on his own as a direct threat to Arthas and Uther or their armies. He would need to sacrifice something in the attempt to regain the advantage he lost by Arthas showing up in the first place

    It is extremely apparent that his "harvesting" is not fast enough to make a difference in the immediate future. Because Arthas is able to easily dispatch the units he's raised and just as easily prevent more from being raised.

    It is only a threat in the long term, if the problem is completely ignored.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Except if Arthas is there, eliminating undead and preventing others from being turned, Mal'Ganis already doesn't get that force. If he wants it, he'd have to un-entrench his forces and come siege Stratholme himself. And would be facing the combined might of both Arthas's forces and Uther's cavalry.

    I think the issue some people are having is assuming that events don't affect other events. Mal'Ganis can do little on his own as a direct threat to Arthas and Uther or their armies. He would need to sacrifice something in the attempt to regain the advantage he lost by Arthas showing up in the first place

    It is extremely apparent that his "harvesting" is not fast enough to make a difference in the immediate future. Because Arthas is able to easily dispatch the units he's raised and just as easily prevent more from being raised.

    It is only a threat in the long term, if the problem is completely ignored.
    Right, Mal'Ganis is manipulating Arthas to force him into a specific course of action. Thats the point. Mal'Ganis wants Arthas to cull Stratholme. That is in fact his ideal end game scenario. Sure, he could go off and spread the plague somewhere else or something, but the point of going after Stratholme is to push Arthas closer and closer to the edge. The threat of the undead army is to prevent Arthas from calling his bluff and to push up the urgency of action, not to actually generate an undead army. Likewise Mal'Ganis there taunting him and generally keeping him on the move and not allowing him to stop and catch his breath. If Arthas gets KOed by Uther or something instead of going through with it, the undead army is the consolation prize, so that heads Mal'Ganis wins and tails Arthas loses.

    Beyond that, Mal'Ganis also needs Arthas to want to follow him to Northrend after its all done, so he needs to be there acting as the face of this terrible deed.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Right, Mal'Ganis is manipulating Arthas to force him into a specific course of action. Thats the point. Mal'Ganis wants Arthas to cull Stratholme. That is in fact his ideal end game scenario. Sure, he could go off and spread the plague somewhere else or something, but the point of going after Stratholme is to push Arthas closer and closer to the edge. The threat of the undead army is to prevent Arthas from calling his bluff and to push up the urgency of action, not to actually generate an undead army. Likewise Mal'Ganis there taunting him and generally keeping him on the move and not allowing him to stop and catch his breath. If Arthas gets KOed by Uther or something instead of going through with it, the undead army is the consolation prize, so that heads Mal'Ganis wins and tails Arthas loses.

    Beyond that, Mal'Ganis also needs Arthas to want to follow him to Northrend after its all done, so he needs to be there acting as the face of this terrible deed.
    Sure. And like all "mastermind" plans in bad stories, it only works because Mal'Ganis read ahead in the script. His plan fails if Arthas takes basically any action besides the one he ended up taking.

    To be fair, maybe he knew ahead of time that Arthas is a poor general, at least when it comes to planning. He's a lead from the front "inspire the men to fight harder" sort, not a tactical genius. But that's a hell of a gamble to take on Arthas going with his first kneejerk reaction to the scenario, and everyone else involved being unable to convince him to take another one.

    It's extremely convenient that Arthas chooses the outcome most beneficial to Mal'Ganis and that Arthas's most trusted allies frankly don't even TRY to convince him not to make that mistake.

    I've been pretty hard on Arthas in this discussion, but Uther takes a lot of blame as well for doing nothing besides refusing to comply without offering any kind of commentary besides "I refuse", and so does Jaina for as far as I remember saying...nothing at all? She just kinda leaves too.

    But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-11-24 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.
    Agreed. any plan that involves doing the path of most resistance like slaughter is out done by any one plan more reasonable. the city wasn't going to explode into undead if he took a few more minutes to think this out a little more. like sure, quick action but if it was a disease it'd be something that would happen in a few hours and he would have time to come up with at least a basic plan better than the culling.

    and thing like many "mastermind" plans, Arthas is actually not that vital to anything except being some local control node for the scourge until he is needed to become the Lich King, since there is nothing particularly magically significant about him, that means this role could've been filled.....by literally any human in the world. Mal'ganis just focused on him for some reason. like where are the alternate Frostmourne candidates that could've picked it up instead? did Mal'ganis and the Lich King just expect the Arthas plan to go so well they wouldn't need anyone else? for a mastermind plan this is lacking in contingencies for what if things go terribly wrong. heck if Arthas listened to the dwarf at the last second, the whole plan is off the rails anyways. the plan relies more on Arthas consistently making bad decisions than anything the demons do to make sure the Frostmourne is wielded and some good candidate to command the Scourge is made.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2022-11-24 at 05:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Sure. And like all "mastermind" plans in bad stories, it only works because Mal'Ganis read ahead in the script. His plan fails if Arthas takes basically any action besides the one he ended up taking.

    To be fair, maybe he knew ahead of time that Arthas is a poor general, at least when it comes to planning. He's a lead from the front "inspire the men to fight harder" sort, not a tactical genius. But that's a hell of a gamble to take on Arthas going with his first kneejerk reaction to the scenario, and everyone else involved being unable to convince him to take another one.

    It's extremely convenient that Arthas chooses the outcome most beneficial to Mal'Ganis and that Arthas's most trusted allies frankly don't even TRY to convince him not to make that mistake.

    I've been pretty hard on Arthas in this discussion, but Uther takes a lot of blame as well for doing nothing besides refusing to comply without offering any kind of commentary besides "I refuse", and so does Jaina for as far as I remember saying...nothing at all? She just kinda leaves too.

    But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.
    Youre right, its almost like there were forces actively manipulating Arthas in order to force him to make decisions in a way most beneficial to their cause.

    Oh wait.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Agreed. any plan that involves doing the path of most resistance like slaughter is out done by any one plan more reasonable. the city wasn't going to explode into undead if he took a few more minutes to think this out a little more. like sure, quick action but if it was a disease it'd be something that would happen in a few hours and he would have time to come up with at least a basic plan better than the culling.

    and thing like many "mastermind" plans, Arthas is actually not that vital to anything except being some local control node for the scourge until he is needed to become the Lich King, since there is nothing particularly magically significant about him, that means this role could've been filled.....by literally any human in the world. Mal'ganis just focused on him for some reason. like where are the alternate Frostmourne candidates that could've picked it up instead? did Mal'ganis and the Lich King just expect the Arthas plan to go so well they wouldn't need anyone else? for a mastermind plan this is lacking in contingencies for what if things go terribly wrong. heck if Arthas listened to the dwarf at the last second, the whole plan is off the rails anyways. the plan relies more on Arthas consistently making bad decisions than anything the demons do to make sure the Frostmourne is wielded and some good candidate to command the Scourge is made.
    Its unclear to what degree the Lich King is actually prophetic versus just extremely good at guessing Arthas' behavior in particular, but its mentioned several times throughout the human and undead campaigns that the Lich King has accurately predicted the specific chain of events that occurred, beyond what is normal for even a powerful magical entity. Beyond that, Arthas was not essential to the Legion's plans at all, and indeed ends up being a liability when he reveals crucial information to Illidan due to the Lich King revolting against his enslavers. Involving Arthas was very much a desire of the Lich King, not specifically the Legion, and Mal'Ganis went along with it because the Lich King was, at the time, still apparently working towards the Legion's ends, and he was facilitating that.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre right, its almost like there were forces actively manipulating Arthas in order to force him to make decisions in a way most beneficial to their cause.

    Oh wait.
    Manipulation is not like a magical, infallible method, and even less so when the target has a support system. Which Arthas nominally does, they just... spontaneously abandon him for no real reason? Mal'Ganis didn't have anything to do with that part, it was just narrative contrivance.

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Manipulation is not like a magical, infallible method, and even less so when the target has a support system. Which Arthas nominally does, they just... spontaneously abandon him for no real reason? Mal'Ganis didn't have anything to do with that part, it was just narrative contrivance.
    Sure, it was convenient. If they hadnt abandoned him then killing them or otherwise separating him from them would have been an important step. But its not like it would have completely ended their ability to poke and prod Arthas in the direction they wanted, it just would have to have been done differently. Killing Jaina would have driven him absolutely berserk, for example, and if they got Uther too (something they needed to do anyway) that would have been even better. They had some options if Stratholm was not the final push to get Arthas to go to Northrend.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Nobody is arguing that Arthas did not fall to evil, people are arguing that there were no other options at Stratholme.
    aAd again: The problem here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without a second thought or a moment's hesitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Arthas fell because he was forced into a no-win scenario and the only people who could have shared the burden of the terrible thing that was necessary balked in fear and could not act.
    No. They refused to cooperate because they were not even given the chance to think or discuss the situation for half a second before being called traitors.
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