Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

[Keltest]

aAd again: The problem here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without a second thought or a moment's hesitation.

Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?

No. They refused to cooperate because they were not even given the chance to think or discuss the situation for half a second before being called traitors.

Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.

[Forum Explorer]

Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?



Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.

Except it arguably wasn't. People have proposed plans that could work and not result in purging 100% of the population. Because it doesn't make sense for literally everyone to be infected by the disease, or for them to die all at the same time. A plan to purge the sick population and sparing the healthy population could work, particularly with Jania, Uther and Uther's knights help.

And even if it was the right call, yes, yes he should. If agonizing over it keeps Uther and his forces around, than it is well worth the time spent.


You shouldn't give orders you know won't be obeyed. Doing so either drives your soldiers away when they desert, or you look weak for backing down.

[Lord Raziere]

Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?

Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.

Was it the right call? Stratholme remains in ruins to this day and was repopulated by undead, at his own hand. his "decisiveness" ended up causing the very thing he first at feared. he betrayed everyone, and thus everything he did up to taking the Frostmourne was for nothing.

[Keltest]

Except it arguably wasn't. People have proposed plans that could work and not result in purging 100% of the population. Because it doesn't make sense for literally everyone to be infected by the disease, or for them to die all at the same time. A plan to purge the sick population and sparing the healthy population could work, particularly with Jania, Uther and Uther's knights help.

And even if it was the right call, yes, yes he should. If agonizing over it keeps Uther and his forces around, than it is well worth the time spent.


You shouldn't give orders you know won't be obeyed. Doing so either drives your soldiers away when they desert, or you look weak for backing down.

People have certainly imagined scenarios where Arthas didnt have to purge the entire city, but since thats not what he was actually facing on the ground, it doesnt really prove any point other than that a different situation would turn out differently. And agonizing over it would absolutely not have kept Uther around, because Uther was not even considering the option. He flat out says as much.

Beyond that, both Uther and Jaina have flat out said that in hindsight, they were the ones in the wrong there for abandoning Arthas during a challenge that they had no reasonable alternative solutions for.

[theNater]

Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior.

Reminder that, as he was not yet king, Arthas was not Uther's actual superior.

Beyond that, both Uther and Jaina have flat out said that in hindsight, they were the ones in the wrong there for abandoning Arthas during a challenge that they had no reasonable alternative solutions for.

Both of them? 'Cause in this cutscene, we get "we should have stopped him" from Jaina. (It's at the 38 second mark, you can check the captions if you're having trouble hearing it under the effects).

[Keltest]

Reminder that, as he was not yet king, Arthas was not Uther's actual superior.

Its really unclear to what degree he has the authority to do so. Uther just dips instead of trying to argue, but nobody really challenges Arthas on his actual ability to issue the command or suspend Uther's paladins.

Both of them? 'Cause in this cutscene, we get "we should have stopped him" from Jaina. (It's at the 38 second mark, you can check the captions if you're having trouble hearing it under the effects).

Yes. Consider the context of that scene is that Jaina is being psychically tortured by an outside party telling her that she is directly responsible for all the bad things that happened during WC3 and WoW that she was present for.

[Delicious Taffy]

Not to interrupt this extremely non-circular Warcraft thread, but it looks like the blurbs are up for the next Death Battle. Those anime boys sure do have some wacky powers. I've changed my mind, this Asta fellow is probably gonna win it. He has more cool stuff he can do.

[theNater]

Its really unclear to what degree he has the authority to do so. Uther just dips instead of trying to argue, but nobody really challenges Arthas on his actual ability to issue the command or suspend Uther's paladins.

Uther does argue, he points out that Arthas isn't king. He dips instead of getting his paladins into a fight with Arthas' knights.

Yes. Consider the context of that scene is that Jaina is being psychically tortured by an outside party telling her that she is directly responsible for all the bad things that happened during WC3 and WoW that she was present for.

Would you like to provide evidence for your claim, or are you happy to just come up for excuses for why evidence to the contrary doesn't count?

[Rynjin]

Not to interrupt this extremely non-circular Warcraft thread, but it looks like the blurbs are up for the next Death Battle. Those anime boys sure do have some wacky powers. I've changed my mind, this Asta fellow is probably gonna win it. He has more cool stuff he can do.

The blurb is extra...deceptive this time around. While I think Asta is going to end up taking the W here, Deku has like 7 other superpowers they didn't mention; the super strength/speed and abilities that come with it are just the base powerset.

But none of them are likely to matter in the face of the sheer overwhelming physical advantage the Swole Savior has over Izuku "I have paper skin and glass bones" Midoriya.

[Traab]

The blurb is extra...deceptive this time around. While I think Asta is going to end up taking the W here, Deku has like 7 other superpowers they didn't mention; the super strength/speed and abilities that come with it are just the base powerset.

But none of them are likely to matter in the face of the sheer overwhelming physical advantage the Swole Savior has over Izuku "I have paper skin and glass bones" Midoriya.

Yeah thats a serious over exaggeration of the problem. Yes he breaks his body on the regular. But he does so by pulling off feats of utter insanity like finger flicking glaciers so hard the wind pressure shatters them. Or punching skyscraper sized robots so hard they get launched backwards totally caved in. When training super moves, he reveals he can shatter a human sized boulder with a single kick and not hurt himself at all and thats still pretty freaking early in the series. He gets a lot stronger and more durable from there.

[Rynjin]

Yeah thats a serious over exaggeration of the problem. Yes he breaks his body on the regular. But he does so by pulling off feats of utter insanity like finger flicking glaciers so hard the wind pressure shatters them. Or punching skyscraper sized robots so hard they get launched backwards totally caved in. When training super moves, he reveals he can shatter a human sized boulder with a single kick and not hurt himself at all and thats still pretty freaking early in the series. He gets a lot stronger and more durable from there.

It overexaggerates the issue, but illustrates the difference between the two characters. Asta can do all of that (and more!) without hurting himself, and we have definitive proof that Midoriya can dish it out, but not take it.

Asta is likely going to take the speed category by Death Battle logic. He dodges light-based attacks sans superpowers, and scales up in speed from there when he stacks his actual powers on top of his raw physical stats. Even if they give Midoriya relativistic speed to match based on even more suspect DB logic than usual, Asta is exponentially faster than that baseline when drawing on his antimagic/demon powers.

He's also likely going to take the durability check. He has simply eaten attacks that would have vaporized Deku.

That just leaves attack power, where the characters are evenly matched, with Deku maybe having a SLIGHT advantage based on how they interpret some of Asta's feats. That interpretation could also go the other way and end up with Asta being a continent-level character in terms of attack power, which Deku is...not.

Deku in the best case at the current point in the series (which is...the final boss battle, not sure why they didn't wait a month or two for the series to wrap up for this to see whatever hax he gets at the end) scales 1:1 with All Might since he has some kludge workaround to him not being able to handle One For All at 100%, and I'm not sure All Might would be able to wrassle with Asta.

This isn't an utter setting-level mismatch, I think slotting Deku or All Might into the Black Clover universe would result in them being some of the strongest characters in the series...but, IMO, not THE strongest.

[awa]

Part of the problem is that black clover is the kind of series where each new enemy is not just stronger but exponentially stronger than the last requiring continuous power growth.

[Delicious Taffy]

Part of the problem is that black clover is the kind of series where each new enemy is not just stronger but exponentially stronger than the last requiring continuous power growth.

Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.

[Rynjin]

Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.

Eh, there are plenty of series like that. HunterxHunter (with the exception of the Chimera Ant arc), Jojo's, some arcs of Naruto (the series goes back and forth on how much power escalation is needed each arc, sometimes an out of the box solution is enough, sometimes a powerup is needed), World Trigger (especially; every character's "raw power" potential is locked in at the start of the series, so the only thing they CAN do is use what they have better from that starting point), etc.

HunterxHunter also gets props for being one of the only series I can think of that had BACKWARDS power scaling in one arc; the villain(s) of the Greed Island arc are actually a lot weaker than the villains of the York New City arc, and serves as almost a breather/training arc as a result, while not having the villains come off as a joke or a non-threat.

[awa]

Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.

speed grapher is not a battle manga and I was not overly impressed with the ending but it fits that criteria each new enemy is about as strong as the last but latter foes understand his power to a degree and work to counter it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Grapher

[tyckspoon]

Deku in the best case at the current point in the series (which is...the final boss battle, not sure why they didn't wait a month or two for the series to wrap up for this to see whatever hax he gets at the end) scales 1:1 with All Might since he has some kludge workaround to him not being able to handle One For All at 100%, and I'm not sure All Might would be able to wrassle with Asta.

Worth noting Deku will almost certainly end up significantly stronger than All Might, because as best as we can tell All Might never connected with/accessed the powers of the previous holders; Deku's current '100%' output is from using all of those extra powers to synergize with each other and make up for not being able to channel the full raw power of All For One (and one of them involves altering the inertia of things, which is Top Grade Bull***** Nonsense potential.) Probably won't be relevant in this battle unless they decide to just get unabashedly speculative, tho, since we really don't have any way to know what it looks like for Deku when he can use 100% All For One in conjunction with the full suite of powers, and there's a good chance My Hero doesn't even get there in its story.

[Delicious Taffy]

HunterxHunter also gets props for being one of the only series I can think of that had BACKWARDS power scaling in one arc; the villain(s) of the Greed Island arc are actually a lot weaker than the villains of the York New City arc, and serves as almost a breather/training arc as a result, while not having the villains come off as a joke or a non-threat.

I always get Hunter×Hunter recommended when it comes to anime, but something about that art style makes me uncomfortable. Most of the shonen battle cartoons I've seen can kinda be "watched" with just the audio and an occasional glance at the screen to see if the background changed yet. Is it like that, or would I need to actually pay attention to the art?

JoJo though, I've definitely been into. Never really thought about the power levels of the characters, aside from brief mentions of them getting more skilled every so often. Especially once Stands come in, since they kind of only have so much that each one can do. Haven't gotten past Part 3, because for some reason the opening few seconds of Part 4 also make me really uncomfortable for some reason.

[Rynjin]

Part 4 is hands down the best part of the series, so I'd suggest pushing back whatever lizard brain reaction you're having lol.

[Traab]

Full Metal Alchemist maybe? I mean, the problem is, you are generally talking about shonen battle manga where power creep is basically the entire point. Its like being upset about reading the heroes journey stories where the mentor dies. Sure it doesnt happen EVERY time, but its a staple of the genre. Unassuming child who gets swept up in an adventure beyond their control, learns they have special gift(s) loses the old man who taught him about them, eventually becomes king of all elbonia after defeating the dark lord. In shonen the general pathway is weakling struggles to survive in their setting but has unbreakable determination. Slowly unlocks greater strength against progressively harder opponents until he is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.

[Prime32]

Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.

Slayers has some of the demon lords who power attack spells dying off, powerful magic items getting lost or destroyed, and the protagonist abandoning her strongest attack spell after learning that it can end the world if miscast. So the protagonists actually get weaker over time.

[McNum]

We get video signal, new episode is up!

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I don't know these character, but I agree with Boomstick. I, too, wanted Deku to take it. Ah well.

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It's Vegeta and Goku vs. Goku and Vegeta, only fused! Vegito versus Gogeta!

Oh dear. That's a nerd fight and a half. And they both got Blue in Super and Super: Broly, so that can't be the deciding factor. I'm gonna lean Gogeta because hr kinda broke reality by punching while fighting Broly. But Vegito has Fused Zamasu to compare to, not really sure who outputs more tons of TNT between Zamasu and Broly at their peaks.

It's an interesting matchup because the Potara fusion should be stronger, yes, but the Goku and Vegeta that formed Gogeta in Broly were stronger than the ones forming Vegito. So, better fusion vs. better fusion materials.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: next time

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It boils does to if they set them both as being made from the same Goku and Vegeta or if they go solely by demonstrated feats.

Patora is a much more potent means of fusion than the Metamoran Dance so if Goku and Vegeta are taken from the same period for both fusions Vegito's got it hands down.

On the other hand, if they take Vegito and Gogeta from their strongest showings, then the fact that Goku and Vegeta were much stronger in Broly due to extra years of training in the Time Chamber and being repeatedly pushed to their limits in the Tournament of Power.

[Traab]

Spoiler: this time

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Im not sure I buy their justification for light speed. The event they described suggests he got lucky and rolled out of the way of an attack he wasnt even aware of, not that he knew a light speed attack was incoming then subconsciously dodged it. But I dont know that series so I cant really confirm if thats the case or if its like ranma and his sleep-fu where he can defend himself from just about anything while sleeping. Also, I feel like one big aspect that gets overlooked sometimes in these "who does something with the most tnt" fights is, what durability have they demonstrated. I mean, its fine that deku did a 7th as much damage as asta, I cant argue that kind of math, but have either of them shown the ability to tank direct hits of their opponents best feats? They mention deku getting hurt but they dont really cover how much damage it takes TO hurt him at his end game level of power.

[Rynjin]

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Im not sure I buy their justification for light speed. The event they described suggests he got lucky and rolled out of the way of an attack he wasnt even aware of, not that he knew a light speed attack was incoming then subconsciously dodged it. But I dont know that series so I cant really confirm if thats the case or if its like ranma and his sleep-fu where he can defend himself from just about anything while sleeping. Also, I feel like one big aspect that gets overlooked sometimes in these "who does something with the most tnt" fights is, what durability have they demonstrated. I mean, its fine that deku did a 7th as much damage as asta, I cant argue that kind of math, but have either of them shown the ability to tank direct hits of their opponents best feats? They mention deku getting hurt but they dont really cover how much damage it takes TO hurt him at his end game level of power.

It wasn't luck, his mentor character actually coached him to sense incoming attacks during the fight , and he started dodging the light beams once they came close enough for him to sense them.

As for durability, Asta has tanked a continent buster, albeit arguably in part by blunting its damage with antimagic first. Deku regularly gets his **** rocked by nitroglycerin explosions.

I actually thought Deku might have won the attack power matchup, if barely. But he was always going to lose the durability check.

[ArlEammon]

I hope Death battle eventually does Darth Sidious vs Doctor Doom.

[TeChameleon]

I hope Death battle eventually does Darth Sidious vs Doctor Doom.

Eh... *hand waggle*

Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.

As for this time... yeh, poor Deku. Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.

[awa]

Eh... *hand waggle*

Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.

As for this time... yeh, poor Deku. Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.

Most of the time when doom does something truly absurd he is drawing on some extra power source, while individual force users have some pretty impressive feats such as attacking that fleet of ships in the final star wars trilogy.

So I suspect a sidious vs doom fight would be a very dodgy one depending on which power-ups doom happens to have today and which combined characters feats sidious has, along with the all powerful whose authors understands physics the least.

power growth in black clover just exceeds that of My Hero Academia every foe is experimentally stronger than the last requiring continuous growth for the heroes.

[DaedalusMkV]

Eh... *hand waggle*

Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.

As for this time... yeh, poor Deku. Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.

If the original Star Wars EU is in play... You don't scale Sidious to other characters. Other characters scale to Sidious. His feats include mind-controlling people from interstellar distances, using his Force Ghost to possess clone bodies to essentially make himself immortal, reasonably accurate precognition on the scale of decades (only reason he isn't completely unstoppable is that his visions don't work super well on other Force users), and the ability to destroy planets and wipe entire fleets of starships out of existence single-handedly using Force Storms that cover entire solar systems. With Dark Empire in play, it's not... Really clear what he needed a Death Star for in the first place, aside perhaps for the ability to delegate single-handedly crushing galaxy-scale political institutions rather than using his Force powers.

I'm not sure if they would stick to Disney Canon or digging into the older EU, but... Well, to put it simply, EU Sidious is one of the few characters I'd be comfortable putting into a fight with a high-end DC or Marvel character, in no small part because all his dumbest feats are also the result of comic book writers.

... Also, both are capable of cheating death, Sidious with Force Ghost clone possession and Doom with his trademark Doombots. I'd back the fight happening if only for the inevitable three or four fakeout killing blows as things escalate.

*Sidious hits Doom with Force Lightning until he melts into a glowing puddle. Another Doom emerges from the shadows.* "Did you really think that was Doom? Doom is not impressed."
*Doom blasts Sidious with some sort of energy beam. Sidious vanishes, and another Sidious steps out from behind a curtain.* "Did you enjoy playing with that projection, Doctor? You have not seen a half measure of the true power of the Dark Side."

And so on and so forth until you eventually decide to have one of them blow up the planet, winning the fight. They could both probably do it, and you could justify that as a win against either depending on the scenario you concoct. They're both specialists in the fields of 'Nuh-uh', 'All according to plan' and the ever classic 'Pulling new abilities out of my hat as the plot demands', after all.

[Delicious Taffy]

As for durability, Asta has tanked a continent buster, albeit arguably in part by blunting its damage with antimagic first.

Was that a different attack from the Big One they showed off? Cuz they said that one was "about half the [size] of Great Britain", which is hardly a continent.

[Iamyourking]

Spoiler: This Time

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Vegito wins by a very slight margin.

Spoiler: Next Year

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Bill Cipher vs Discord and Alex Mercer vs. Cole McGrath. Frankly I'm just glad Kratos vs Asura didn't win that poll.