Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

[awa]

I mean I could see how sauorn would win if the goal was for a writer to let him win. (in an army battle) Its pretty straight forward, manipulate the heroes into doing it for him. Corrupt the heroes as they are fighting the scourge so that when every thing is done he comes out on top. In this situation his army of evil is unnecessary because their is an army of good at his side.

If he has to bring the army he has though hes in rough shape, morale seems to be a very decisive factor in lotr battles and the undead are both fearsome and fearless.

[Talakeal]

Arthas wins the battle but Sauron wins the war.

Not sure how DB would actually call this one.

[awa]

I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.

sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.

[Talakeal]

I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.

sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.

Sauron has a history of feigning defeat and destroying his enemies from within. Arthas has a history of being easily manipulated.

Heck, there is a good chance Arthas will simply smash Sauron's body and trap his spirit inside Frostmourne and then make him a permanent voice in his head, which is exactly where Sauron needs to be.

[awa]

Sauron has a history of feigning defeat and destroying his enemies from within. Arthas has a history of being easily manipulated.

Heck, there is a good chance Arthas will simply smash Sauron's body and trap his spirit inside Frostmourne and then make him a permanent voice in his head, which is exactly where Sauron needs to be.

except Arthas isn't just Arthas Hes fused with a lich, who is also a corruptive manipulator, which is a far more complicated matter. A question of whether frost mourn can permanently harm sauron thus leaving no opportunity to corrupt him is also on the table. But a battle of corruption is far less certain than a clash of armies. I did not do wow to any great degree or the books/ comics so I'm curious what feats they will pull out for Arthas.

[GloatingSwine]

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Ya warcraft humans have some truly insane feats. Here are several of them carrying a giant dragon's head with no real difficulty.


Then again they might pull out some ridiculous flavor text for Sauron that "proves" he is lightspeed or something. Still my money is on Arthas. I do wonder if they will use the respective armies for this fight though. If so that is also an advantage to Arthas as orcs really won't do anything to the Scourge and will just be slain and raised.

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When you spend your life with those giant pauldrons on, you build up some wicked delts.

[Talakeal]

except Arthas isn't just Arthas Hes fused with a lich, who is also a corruptive manipulator, which is a far more complicated matter. A question of whether frost mourn can permanently harm sauron thus leaving no opportunity to corrupt him is also on the table. But a battle of corruption is far less certain than a clash of armies. I did not do wow to any great degree or the books/ comics so I'm curious what feats they will pull out for Arthas.

Depends on which canon we are going by.

Warcraft 3 he is fused with Nerzuhl who is, while a lot smarter than Arthas, still someone who was repeatedly tricked and manipulated throughout his life, primarily by Kil'jaden who is a being very similar to Sauron.

Then they retconned it to Arthas alone being the lich king, having totally destroyed Nerzuhl's personality / soul. Even in this instance though he was still being influenced by the souls trapped in his blade and the Old God under Northrend.

Then they retconned it again to say that the whole time Arthas was being influenced by The Jailer, his own will being worn away and him slowly working toward The Jailer's schemes without realizing why.

[awa]

Depends on which canon we are going by.

Warcraft 3 he is fused with Nerzuhl who is, while a lot smarter than Arthas, still someone who was repeatedly tricked and manipulated throughout his life, primarily by Kil'jaden who is a being very similar to Sauron.

Then they retconned it to Arthas alone being the lich king, having totally destroyed Nerzuhl's personality / soul. Even in this instance though he was still being influenced by the souls trapped in his blade and the Old God under Northrend.

Then they retconned it again to say that the whole time Arthas was being influenced by The Jailer, his own will being worn away and him slowly working toward The Jailer's schemes without realizing why.

All the retcons were a turn off for me with wow and that's worse then I was aware.

[Traab]

I love the stratholme conundrum. The real reason Arthas went nuts, imo, was because uther and jaina turned on him. They decried his solution but had absolutely nothing to suggest as an alternative plan. What else could he have done? The entire population was infected and going to turn, they had no clue on how to cure it. Malganis was rampaging through the city killing them to raise as undead and if left alone, the scourge would have been multiplied in size and buried lorderan under their swarm. Even now, many years afterwards, i cant think of a legit alternate plan that doesnt end with lorderan destroyed and all life wiped out.

[awa]

I don't think that's why he went crazy myself but
In that particular incident their really didn't seem to be an alternative. Other stuff he does latter down the line is less forgivable but as I recall it from so long ago it definitely seems justified. Course they probably retconed it by now.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.

sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.

I mean, Arthras doesn't have full control over his dead army, and the Forsaken are flat out in rebellion against him. That's plenty of room for Sauron to slip in and usurp control.

And Arthras himself seems to be particularly prone to falling to corruption and manipulations. Sauron could take a dive, Arthras picks up the Ring of Power and ends up controlled by Sauron.

[Dragonus45]

Yea Warhammer Undead are not mindless and can be manipulated, controlled, and cajoled like any other person. Really they seem to be more susceptible to it then most.

[Keltest]

Yea Warhammer Undead are not mindless and can be manipulated, controlled, and cajoled like any other person. Really they seem to be more susceptible to it then most.

Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.

[Forum Explorer]

Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.

That's probably why they are more susceptible to being corrupted and manipulated really. But even the chaff can be usurped by someone more locally. I'm pretty sure that's what Slyvanas did to get her chaff out of Arthras' control.

[Dragonus45]

Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.

Yes I mean Warcraft.

[awa]

I think saurons getting a little to much credit, he does lose and its not like all his manipulations result in a win for him. Remember his big plan in the end is to use an army to close the deal an army that largely fails in the field against inferior foes. To be fair the lich king loses to but he does way more damage before he goes down.

manipulation is useful but its not necessarily an automatic win.

[Forum Explorer]

I think saurons getting a little to much credit, he does lose and its not like all his manipulations result in a win for him. Remember his big plan in the end is to use an army to close the deal an army that largely fails in the field against inferior foes. To be fair the lich king loses to but he does way more damage before he goes down.

manipulation is useful but its not necessarily an automatic win.

He only lost because of Smegal being mindcontrolled to jump off the nearest cliff if they attacked Frodo, attacked Frodo right at the volcano's edge and jumped off the cliff with the ring. Otherwise Frodo would've fallen to his power and returned the Ring to Sauron.

Because while he can corrupt and manipulate the leaders of nations, getting literally everyone under his control requires an army.

I'm actually not familiar enough with LOTR to debate the damage part. I'm not sure if Sauron gets the credit for orcs being created, or the destruction of Numeor.

[Traab]

That's probably why they are more susceptible to being corrupted and manipulated really. But even the chaff can be usurped by someone more locally. I'm pretty sure that's what Slyvanas did to get her chaff out of Arthras' control.

What happened with sylvanis was, arthas raised her as a banshee with enough of her mind intact to suffer seeing quelthalas burned to the ground as she was forced to help destroy it. Then, Illidan attacked the lich king (who wasnt merged with arthas yet) somehow, which disrupted his control over the undead. Setting sylvanis and a number of others free mentally. It does imply that the lich king can be contested for control over the undead to an extent, but im not sure sauron has that much juice to use against arthas.

And Awa, I agree, there were plenty of other heinous actions he took afterwards that cemented him as a bad guy, but how would it have played out if jaina and uther had admitted they didnt have a better idea and stuck with him? After stratholme, arthas felt alone and abandoned, with nobody to help him stop malganis other than the troops under his command. He had no advisors until he found muradin to try and talk sense into him. I just think that it was a bad story choice to have them turn on arthas there. Unless them being wrong was an intended part of the story, they should have picked a less grey scenario to suddenly decide arthas is nuts and cant be supported (but oddly they refuse to stop him)

[awa]

I just think that it was a bad story choice to have them turn on arthas there. Unless them being wrong was an intended part of the story, they should have picked a less grey scenario to suddenly decide arthas is nuts and cant be supported (but oddly they refuse to stop him)

I agree it's been a long time since I played the game, but if I recall correctly, they do come across as unreasonable and Arthas making the hard but necessary choice.

[theNater]

I agree it's been a long time since I played the game, but if I recall correctly, they do come across as unreasonable and Arthas making the hard but necessary choice.

You do not recall correctly.

Arthas jumps straight from the knowledge the townspeople are infected with zombie plague to "murder everyone; failure to start murdering immediately is treason".

It is admittedly true that the others do not present a fully-formed alternative within 15 seconds of being informed of the problem, but it's Arthas' fault we'll never know what they would have come up with had they been given even a minute to think.

[awa]

It still feels like the necessary act but it isn't quite how I remembered it decades down the line.

[Forum Explorer]

It still feels like the necessary act but it isn't quite how I remembered it decades down the line.

It was probably correct, but he's making a lot of assumptions. For example: That everyone in the city is infected. Or that the plague is 100% fatal. Or that there was no way to find a cure.

[Rynjin]

That last is a big one. He's traveling with an extremely skilled and powerful Mage, as well as a similarly experienced healing-focused Paladin.

Give 'em like...some time to study and come up with a cure first maybe?

[Keltest]

That last is a big one. He's traveling with an extremely skilled and powerful Mage, as well as a similarly experienced healing-focused Paladin.

Give 'em like...some time to study and come up with a cure first maybe?

The citizens are actively turning as you get into the city, and even beyond that Mal'Ganis is actively in the city with his army as well. There is no time. As far as a moral dilemma goes, its a very strong one. In universe, Jaina and Uther even look back and believe that their total rejection of Arthas in that moment was probably the deciding factor for his fall, and one they would take back if they could.

[Forum Explorer]

The citizens are actively turning as you get into the city, and even beyond that Mal'Ganis is actively in the city with his army as well. There is no time. As far as a moral dilemma goes, its a very strong one. In universe, Jaina and Uther even look back and believe that their total rejection of Arthas in that moment was probably the deciding factor for his fall, and one they would take back if they could.

In their defense, Arthras didn't give them any wiggle room. It was either murder everyone or 'treason'.

[Traab]

In their defense, Arthras didn't give them any wiggle room. It was either murder everyone or 'treason'.

Arthas didnt have any wiggle room either. By dawn the entire city was going to be turned into an undead horde lead by a dread lord. There wasnt room for gentle debate and careful reflection. With every minute that passed more undead were raised and joining the forces of evil. Imagine facing an army invading america, then learning the entire population of LA is going to be converted overnight into more troops and you have no way to reverse it. Thats what Arthas was dealing with. Had they not wiped out the city, all of lorderan would have fallen to the overwhelming number of undead. He was honestly the most clear headed leader there.

[Seppl]

New battle is out.

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The ultimate power scaling hogwash. The outcome is pretty much decided by comparing two completely unrelated characters from each world, using rather dubious feats. The actual feats performed by the combatants are not considered, nor is there any explanation why feats of other related characters are not taken into account, for example Nerzhul - who has a far more immediate connection to Arthas - accidentally ripping apart a whole planet.

The connection Osse to Sauron is especially suspect. It is like saying Hephaestus and Poseidon can do the same things. At least for Guldan and Arthas there is some vague connection, but no explanation why Arthas should not be way stronger than the guy who lost to the guy whom Arthas (pre power-up!) handily defeated.

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Deku vs. Asta. I have no idea who these people are.

[Delicious Taffy]

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Deku vs. Asta. I have no idea who these people are.

Spoiler: Still not sure why we're supposed to hide these

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The only "Deku" I know off the top of my head is the little shrubby guys from Zelda games I haven't played yet. No earthly idea what an "Asta" could be.

[Lord Raziere]

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Guys its Izuku Midoriya (whose hero name IS Deku) from My Hero academia vs the protagonist of Black Clover, Asta. y'know the guy everyone was memeing about being loud when it first came out? has a big sword and anti magic powers? it says something that I've only watched Black Clover up to episode 6 or so and somehow I'm the only one who knows anything about him.

[Iamyourking]

Spoiler: Next Time

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It's Izuku "Deku" Midoriya from My Hero Academia vs Asta from Black Clover.

Spoiler: This Time

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I figured they were either going to go with Arthas cuts off Sauron's finger, stops to pick up the ring, and then gets his head smashed in while he's mentally battling Sauron's influence or Sauron bungles it at the last second because he has never actually won a fight.