Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

[GloatingSwine]

It's kind of sad to realize there isn't a single moment in all of WOW that manages to generate conversation the way that the plot of Warcraft 3 and it's expansions do.

It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).

[Seppl]

It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).

There's literal decades between SC1 and SC2, though. SC2 is already deep in bad story territory. From the conversation here we can deduce that WC3 still had a good story. The first time I noticed Blizzard pumping out one bad story after another was with World of Warcraft. So many instances of "Remember this character from the previous games? Somehow they are evil now!".

[Rynjin]

So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?

Because that seems to be the appropriate comparison.

The big difference between the two scenarios IMO is that the Raccoon City outbreak was visibly and determinably widespread, and based on what we see in RE 2, 3, and a bunch of other games set in the same time period had reached nearly 100% infection rate among those left in the city.

And, oh yeah, "those left in the city" is a very important qualifier, because several attempts of varying success were made to evacuate the uninfected before the nuke dropped.

[theNater]

Possibly? although if you are referring to Northpass Tower...

Nah, I'm referring to the city wall of Stratholme. Where the word Stratholme is on your map? That's a wall, connecting the mountains on either side.

*Ghouls, the least of the undead that Arthas should be expecting the face after Hearthglen

Ghouls are what the plague turns people into. Any other units would require destroying multiple ghouls for parts, reducing the total number of the undead forces.

So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?

A reminder, all I'm asking is that Arthas spend literally any time at all looking for other options. I don't know Resident Evil, but from Rynjin's comment it sounds like they not only looked for but actively tried other things first.

It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories.

Blizzard's stories were always bad never good. The early ones were just so minimal it was easy to imagine a better story on top of it. Much of the arguing stems from different people trying to defend different imagined versions.

[BloodSquirrel]

It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).

Was Blizzard ever actually good at stories?

Blizzard had a pretty good story for Warcraft 1/2 by the standards of what you could fit in a few pages for a video game manual, but even between Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2 you saw a good deal of retcons. Starcraft had a decent story, but again, that was by the standards of what you could fit in a few lines of dialog between missions and the primitive in-engine story segments.

Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.

Now we're in an age where these games need a much more developed story, and the technology that exists to deliver one has raised our expectations, and Blizzard has never really shown themselves to be great storytellers under that new level of scrutiny. They were able to write stories when they could keep them simple and play off of one or two broadly compelling concepts; they've never shown that they could keep their lore straight from one game to another, or plan out and manage a long-term plotline with lots of moving parts.

Warcraft 3, published 2002.

Moral dilemmas sure have staying power.

Empire vs. Stormcloaks.

Even Bethesda managed to create a matter of contentious discussion in a game filled with otherwise banal and disjointed storytelling.

[Forum Explorer]

Was Blizzard ever actually good at stories?

Blizzard had a pretty good story for Warcraft 1/2 by the standards of what you could fit in a few pages for a video game manual, but even between Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2 you saw a good deal of retcons. Starcraft had a decent story, but again, that was by the standards of what you could fit in a few lines of dialog between missions and the primitive in-engine story segments.

Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.

Now we're in an age where these games need a much more developed story, and the technology that exists to deliver one has raised our expectations, and Blizzard has never really shown themselves to be great storytellers under that new level of scrutiny. They were able to write stories when they could keep them simple and play off of one or two broadly compelling concepts; they've never shown that they could keep their lore straight from one game to another, or plan out and manage a long-term plotline with lots of moving parts.

Honestly, I feel like Blizzard's story quality has pretty much stayed the same. It's our standards that have risen, because I don't feel like Starcraft 2's story is any worse than Warcraft 3's.

[theNater]

Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.

Yeah, Blizzard's writing tends towards "serviceable", which put it head and shoulders above the competition back in the day. It doesn't really hold up against the excellent writing you can find in some games these days.

[Lurkmoar]

Empire vs. Stormcloaks.

Even Bethesda managed to create a matter of contentious discussion in a game filled with otherwise banal and disjointed storytelling.

Hey now, I'm been trying (and failing) to keep it tangentially related to Death Battle!

[Aragehaor]

Nah, I'm referring to the city wall of Stratholme. Where the word Stratholme is on your map? That's a wall, connecting the mountains on either side.

I may simply be blind, but i dont see any indication whatsoever that Stratholme has walls directly connecting to the mountains on either side of it on the map i linked.

That said, let say that they do and consider your question, Can 5,000 men bar and defend the exterior gates of Stratholme to keep 25,000 ghouls contained?

I doubt it, fortifications that were designed to keep things out failed for Arthas agaisnt the undead at Hearthglen, i'm not sure he'd have any reason to assume attempting to fortify the exterior of Stratholmes fortifications is likely to succeed.

Arthas probably isn't assuming the ghouls will have an intelligent commander (Mal'Ganis) so he wouldnt be expecting extreme intelligence from the ghouls - that said, Ghouls do possess an animalistic cunning, and he can expect his men to be able to stop 2 ghouls per man on a very very good day. As i said above, i dont personally believe fortifiying stratholmes exterior is very likely to work all that well, to the point that i would try just about any other alternative to that.

Ghouls are what the plague turns people into. Any other units would require destroying multiple ghouls for parts, reducing the total number of the undead forces.

Thats marginally better for arthas, but still far too many to defeat or be certain of being able to contain, even if he somehow managed to contain the ghouls, they are creatures which possess cunning, and could potentially destroy any purification force that is one day sent to try and wipe them out, City combat is difficult enough when one side isnt the entire population as undead ghouls.

...Also, Stratholme is still lost with every citizen dead, I'm not certain how 25,000 ghouls in stratholme is an improvement on the situation.

A reminder, all I'm asking is that Arthas spend literally any time at all looking for other options. I don't know Resident Evil, but from Rynjin's comment it sounds like they not only looked for but actively tried other things first.

Its not an unfair criticism, but at the same time there is presently no alternative that has been presented with better odds then what Arthas actually did, should Arthas really be judged harshly for being correct?

I dont inherently disagree that it speaks poorly of Arthas that he spent very little time thinking about the issue, but given that the conclusions he came to appear to have been more or less correct i dont agree with villainizing him for this choice. Its not like Arthas doesnt do loads of very evil and very bad things later on to villainze him for, afterall.

if you'd instead like to argue that he should of taken any alternative, regardless of the odds of success so like as there was a mild chance, we'll have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, there isnt much more to say here, unless you care to draw up an extensive military strategy you believe would successfully contain the 25,000 ghouls with minimal risk of being overrun to discuss. (...and/or any merits of such a strategy? i'm genuinely not certain why someone would try this.)

Blizzard's stories were always bad never good. The early ones were just so minimal it was easy to imagine a better story on top of it. Much of the arguing stems from different people trying to defend different imagined versions.

Partially correct, Blizzards stories were never good, but to call them bad is somewhat disingenuous - they are well done at what they are - and that is a cohesive storyline for a series of RTS video games in the early 2000s. Its only once blizzard moved away from such constraints and matured as a company that they became able to fully express their literary talent that the quality of stories they tell can truly be considered bad.



Moving back to the actual topic of this thread for a moment:

What is relevant is that Asta has ridiculous speed feats, super-fast flight, and a modicum of super strength AND durability of his own. He's not a city-destroyer like Deku (maybe, I'm a bit behind on both series) but when he uses his demon form (antimagic is sourced from a demon living in his spellbook, is the cliff notes version) he's at least a "hill buster", which is more than enough to cream poor Deku from what I know about his late-series abilities, and I genuinely think he has enough durability to tank Deku's best shot and still be in fighting shape, even if he would be grievously injured.

Its worth noting that Deku has some feats of impressive speed of his own, even if we're only using the anime/movies for reference, though my exact knowledge of the calculations involved are minimal, if anyone is interested in reading what some others think, this post appears to contain a fairly dramatic line of reasoning that i would not find out of place on DB itself. (massive spoilers for the anime, movie, and manga are present in this post. be warned. https://www.quora.com/How-fast-is-Deku-any-time-of-OFA)

[Lemmy]

So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?

Because that seems to be the appropriate comparison.

Yes. I do think it's immoral to drop a nuke in your own country just to hide your involvement in the event, no matter whose life it costs (apparently due to the influence of the world's most evil corporation). That was never portrayed as a good action.

Setting up a perimeter and quarantine, giving survivors the chance to escape, but be examined before allowed to pass would've been the moral thing to do. The nuke was used as quick-and-dirty way to sweep everything under the rug before more information could come out...

...And even that was giving the people in the city more of a chance than what Arthas did. At least they didn't immediately choose that option as soon as a the first sign of infection was seen in the city. It was hours before it happened, and as Rynjin pointed out, efforts were made to try and evacuate the city.

[theNater]

I may simply be blind, but i dont see any indication whatsoever that Stratholme has walls directly connecting to the mountains on either side of it on the map i linked.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. The wall does not appear on your map; it is present in-game.

I dont inherently disagree that it speaks poorly of Arthas that he spent very little time thinking about the issue, but given that the conclusions he came to appear to have been more or less correct i dont agree with villainizing him for this choice. Its not like Arthas doesnt do loads of very evil and very bad things later on to villainze him for, afterall.

It's all part of the same whole. That's my central point.

Arthas' unwillingness to consider the possibility that he might be wrong is arrogance.
Arthas' belief that his vengeance is more important than the well-being of his soldiers is arrogance.
Arthas takes up Frostmourne out of the arrogant assumption that doing so will allow him to single-handedly save Lordaeron.

This event-this failure to consider- is an early indication of the flaw that turns him into an all-out villain.

[Aragehaor]

I apologize for my lack of clarity. The wall does not appear on your map; it is present in-game.

Ah, i see - forgive me as well, Its been quite some time since i've seen stratholme in-game. Still, i dont believe its beyond the might of the ghoul'd citizens of stratholme to break through, or at the very least, i dont think its reasonable for Arthas to think he could hold them inside, even if he were to decide that was a better option in some manner.

It's all part of the same whole. That's my central point.

Arthas' unwillingness to consider the possibility that he might be wrong is arrogance.
Arthas' belief that his vengeance is more important than the well-being of his soldiers is arrogance.
Arthas takes up Frostmourne out of the arrogant assumption that doing so will allow him to single-handedly save Lordaeron.

This event-this failure to consider- is an early indication of the flaw that turns him into an all-out villain.

Oh, in that case we are in agreement - more or less. I hold that there are ways things could of gone where Arthas's flaws could have been tempered and his fall prevented - but denying that he has those flaws and that they play a key role in his fall from grace? certainly not!

I of course maintain my point that this decision isn't - in spite of how horrible a thing it is that arthas does - the wrong decision(for a ruler, at the very least) but i do agree that Arthas demeanor and words, and actions here are indeed relatively clear indicators of one of his more major flaws.

...And even that was giving the people in the city more of a chance than what Arthas did. At least they didn't immediately choose that option as soon as a the first sign of infection was seen in the city. It was hours before it happened, and as Rynjin pointed out, efforts were made to try and evacuate the city.

True, although a modern(ish) society has substantially better options for screening infections, gathering information about the disease, and better logistics for maintaining quarantines over a cities evacuated population then the Kingdom of Lordaeron did at the time.

Tangentially related, had Quel'thalas proved to be a more reliable neighbor and friend then they were in actuality, the probability of a strong and prompt Quel'dorei response would have allowed the situation to be less dramatically terrible for Lordaeron, and would have made Arthas being unwilling to take a moment and debate a much more unreasonable stance.

[theNater]

Ah, i see - forgive me as well, Its been quite some time since i've seen stratholme in-game. Still, i dont believe its beyond the might of the ghoul'd citizens of stratholme to break through, or at the very least, i dont think its reasonable for Arthas to think he could hold them inside, even if he were to decide that was a better option in some manner.

A lot would depend on what sorts of units Arthas had available, which I don't recall. It's a tight enough bottleneck that a sufficiency of mages blanketing the area with blizzards could hold it indefinitely, but I don't know if mages were even available on that stage, much less a sufficiency of them.

Oh, in that case we are in agreement - more or less. I hold that there are ways things could of gone where Arthas's flaws could have been tempered and his fall prevented - but denying that he has those flaws and that they play a key role in his fall from grace? certainly not!

Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page, at least. There are some posters in this thread arguing that Arthas shows no flaws before arriving in Northrend, and treat his readiness to slaughter civilians as virtuous decisiveness.

I of course maintain my point that this decision isn't - in spite of how horrible a thing it is that arthas does - the wrong decision(for a ruler, at the very least) but i do agree that Arthas demeanor and words, and actions here are indeed relatively clear indicators of one of his more major flaws.

The moral question is, of course, out of bounds for this forum. As for the strategic and tactical considerations, Warcraft 3 itself gives us no information except Arthas' claims. As an audience member, I'm generally willing to take his statements as the author's way of informing us of the stakes.* I've been engaging with you on tactical issues because you've provided information that can make those analyses an interesting thought experiment, if nothing else.

*An exception occurs when someone tries to claim his behavior towards Uther isn't his fault because of a heightened emotional state, as such emotional states generally also impair judgement.

[Aragehaor]

A lot would depend on what sorts of units Arthas had available, which I don't recall. It's a tight enough bottleneck that a sufficiency of mages blanketing the area with blizzards could hold it indefinitely, but I don't know if mages were even available on that stage, much less a sufficiency of them.

Certainly so, Arthas in the campaign at this point had access to mostly Footmen and knights, i believe he had some dwarven riflemen auxiliaries as well, but after taking a look at the wc3 cutscene there arent any dwarves at all. If Arthas had access to a medium to large amount of magic casters i would agree that containing them is very possible and quite probably relatively easy (at least enough so that he wouldnt be overtly risking his forces destruction by making the attempt)

I still dont know what benefit there is strategically or tactically to doing this - but i'd imagine with a good number of mages even Lordaeron could give limited evacuation and disease screening a shot without overwhelming risk.

I dont actually remember why exactly Jaina is effectively the sole repersentive of Dalaran with Arthas and Uther, actually - i'm pretty sure the Quel'dorei had at least a few elves helping Arthas earlier in the campaign, no idea why Dalaran doesn't.

Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page, at least. There are some posters in this thread arguing that Arthas shows no flaws before arriving in Northrend, and treat his readiness to slaughter civilians as virtuous decisiveness.

It does appear that we are, i certainly dont view it as that afterall, it was probably correct - but it certainly wasn't virtuous, the slaughter of civilians can never be.

[theNater]

I still dont know what benefit there is strategically or tactically to doing this - but i'd imagine with a good number of mages even Lordaeron could give limited evacuation and disease screening a shot without overwhelming risk.

The most obvious tactical benefit is that Uther and Jaina would participate in this plan; that's a significant power boost right there.

Strategically, we're mostly looking at intangibles. The morale boost soldiers get from knowing they did all they could isn't much, but it's a darn sight better than the morale hit from killing civilians. It also shows them that, should they or their families be in trouble, their leadership will work to save them rather than giving them up as a lost cause right away, which is good for loyalty. But there is one possible material gain: survivors. Anybody who happens to dodge the plague is another living Lordaeronian citizen.

I dont actually remember why exactly Jaina is effectively the sole repersentive of Dalaran with Arthas and Uther, actually - i'm pretty sure the Quel'dorei had at least a few elves helping Arthas earlier in the campaign, no idea why Dalaran doesn't.

My understanding is that this is still an investigative mission; Lordaeron's king isn't ready for Dalaran to send armies into his kingdom without knowing what the deal is.

[Traab]

The most obvious tactical benefit is that Uther and Jaina would participate in this plan; that's a significant power boost right there.

Strategically, we're mostly looking at intangibles. The morale boost soldiers get from knowing they did all they could isn't much, but it's a darn sight better than the morale hit from killing civilians. It also shows them that, should they or their families be in trouble, their leadership will work to save them rather than giving them up as a lost cause right away, which is good for loyalty. But there is one possible material gain: survivors. Anybody who happens to dodge the plague is another living Lordaeronian citizen.


My understanding is that this is still an investigative mission; Lordaeron's king isn't ready for Dalaran to send armies into his kingdom without knowing what the deal is.

Yeah iirc arthas is out on an orc killing mission because apparently some bands of them are trying to open demon portals, then they basically stumble across jaina and the cult of the damned, learn about the plagued grain, get stuck at hearthglen where they see the horror of what the undead swarms can do. Make a desperate sprint to stratholme as its the next location for a major shipment thats already been sent out, then when they get there, they see the grain has already been distributed and its too late. I think the biggest issue is time compression here. We dont get to see arthas filling in uther, we dont get to see them discussing options on how to handle things on the way, etc. Its just, fade to black at hearthglen after uther rides to the rescue, then "Oh no, we are too late" at the front door of strath. So the decision to cull seems even more rushed than it is.

While im sure their GOAL was to get there in time to stop the grain, arthas at least was likely thinking about what to do if the plan failed. And honestly, I think uther was an idiot, possibly swayed by how easily his cavalry wiped out the undead threat, so he didnt take it as seriously as arthas did. Jaina I can forgive because she wasnt a military minded person, and her character has been pretty strongly "cant we all just get along" up till theramore got nuked. So her being a bleeding heart is understandable. But Uther? This guy isnt just a paladin, the dude is basically a general. He should have been better aware of the reality of the situation and just what horrible options they had. But maybe wiping out the undead earlier made him treat it as more of a horrible mess than a genuine threat. Like, the terrible thing is the loss of lives of the citizens, the undead themselves arent that powerful in his mind so he wasnt as worried about facing a city of them as arthas was so he was more willing to delay and hope to think of a better option, even if it lead to wiping out a city of ghouls rather than a city of civilians.

As an aside of what I mean about uther underestimating them, remember that in hearthglen, arthas was only barely getting overwhelmed, it was basically slightly tilted against him, he would have lost but it was close, so throwing in a small army of paladins at a full charge instantly swung the balance the other way entirely, making it seem like they werent that dangerous because duh, outnumbered 20-1 with a surprise attack makes them a lot less difficult to beat. Arthas on the other hand got to experience what it was like dealing with a true horde of undead grinding away at your defenses, wearing down your troops, until eventually your forces collapse.

[Keltest]

Yeah iirc arthas is out on an orc killing mission because apparently some bands of them are trying to open demon portals, then they basically stumble across jaina and the cult of the damned, learn about the plagued grain, get stuck at hearthglen where they see the horror of what the undead swarms can do.

Close. Arthas was deliberately sent by the king to investigate the plague with Jaina. He wasnt just chasing it out of agreeableness towards his old flame, he was actively sent to contain it.

[Traab]

Close. Arthas was deliberately sent by the king to investigate the plague with Jaina. He wasnt just chasing it out of agreeableness towards his old flame, he was actively sent to contain it.

Ah ok, i figured it was more, "Wait, jaina, you are searching out what? Yeah, that sounds important, I will help." I mean, its a necromancy cult in his fathers kingdom, its not the sort of thing you go, "Huh, sounds bad, well, good luck, im off to go do something else!" As both a prince and a paladin, a necromancer cult would be instantly a big deal for him. But its been so many years since I last played.

[Lemmy]

True, although a modern(ish) society has substantially better options for screening infections, gathering information about the disease, and better logistics for maintaining quarantines over a cities evacuated population then the Kingdom of Lordaeron did at the time.

Yeah, but it doesn't have magic... Especially not magic-that-is-literally-powered-by-righteousness, you know... The kind the Arthas and Uther use.

But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same... Including his best friend/ex-lover and his mentor, people who respected, loved and cared about him... And might have had some knowledge to possibly find another solution (or at least, reduce the number of deaths), since one of them is the world's most respected Paladin and the other is a freaking archmage.

The RE equivalent would be this:

- Vice-President: Oh, no... Signs of zombie infection?! NUKE THE ENTIRE CITY!!! NOW!!!
- Head of CDC: Maybe there's anoth-
- Vice-President: TRAITOR! YOU'RE FIRED! *pushes big red button*

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, but it doesn't have magic... Especially not magic-that-is-literally-powered-by-righteousness, you know... The kind the Arthas and Uther use.

But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same...

Except, of course, doing nothing would be much bloodier, and Arthas does know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives everyone in Stratholme is already dead. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.

Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).

[Keltest]

Except, of course, doing nothing would be much bloodier, and Arthas does know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives everyone in Stratholme is already dead. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.

Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).

Indeed. Arthas is, from his perspective, about to do the most painful and difficult thing he will ever have to do in his life, something that goes against every fiber of his being as a prince and paladin, because as he understands it there is no choice at all that gets the city out of this OK. And Uther is refusing to help. Is it any wonder he snapped?

[Talakeal]

I wouldn't look too heavily at in game geography.

In WC2 Stratholme was an open port city primarily used for oil harvesting with no real geographical borders but the ocean.
In WC3 Stratholme is a pretty open metropolis with no major geographical borders and open room for Arthas to build a basecamp right outside of the city.
In WoW Stratholme is an instance with two small gates and impassible mountains around the rest to prevent players from seeing the non-instanced unfinished terrain.
In WC3 Reforged Stratholme is much closer to the WoW geography, but the mountains are replaced by city walls and it includes a large harbor. IMO this is the best melding of all three ideas.

All of these are game mechanics though, I wouldn't use any of them for analyzing the lore as they are clearly abstractions, for example none of them are nearly large enough to house 25,000 people.

[Seppl]

But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same... Including his best friend/ex-lover and his mentor, people who respected, loved and cared about him...

By that time they have been traveling for at least a day, trying to reach the city before the worst could happen. As the commander, it is Arthas' job to consider possible outcomes and actions in advance, so that he does not waste valuable time in a crisis. Jaina and Uther had been with him on the road all the way. They even got a warning by Medivh on the way, that their cause is already lost. Apparently, they could not come up with a better plan for the worst (but expected) case in a day. Were Uther and Jaina just coping, denying that the worst could happen? After having at least a day to think about the situation, when the command is finally given, their only input is to refuse to obey. What other options should Arthas consider in this situation? He had the whole day to come up with the plan and accept that this was the best action to take should they come to late (And it is! We know that!). He even most probably discussed this with the others on the way. Why should he hesitate now?

[Forum Explorer]

Except, of course, doing nothing would be much bloodier, and Arthas does know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives everyone in Stratholme is already dead. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.

Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).

See that's a really big and dangerous assumption that everyone has eaten the infected grain. Particularly if it was freshly delivered. There would likely be a decent amount of people who may have purchased it, but hadn't actually used it yet due to working through old food reserves. Or simply never bought that grain in the first place.

[Rynjin]

Moving back to the actual topic of this thread for a moment:


Its worth noting that Deku has some feats of impressive speed of his own, even if we're only using the anime/movies for reference, though my exact knowledge of the calculations involved are minimal, if anyone is interested in reading what some others think, this post appears to contain a fairly dramatic line of reasoning that i would not find out of place on DB itself. (massive spoilers for the anime, movie, and manga are present in this post. be warned. https://www.quora.com/How-fast-is-Deku-any-time-of-OFA)

I take issue with a couple of these.

1.) The manga author stating when a movie takes place in the timeline does not make said movie canon. We all know, for an example, that in DBZ, Broly takes place in the period of training before the Cell Games. That doesn't make it canon, we just know when the movie is set.
--1a.) A storm being bigger than an island does not make destroying the storm a greater feat than destroying the island.

2.) Criteria for Aoyama's laser to actually be light or "photon" based is not met at all. The relevant character says they can absorb light, not that Aoyama's laser beam IS light. It would be eye-opening to look at the actual Japanese text and see if context is missing, because it's a pretty standard boast in anime for a character to say something in Japanese like "No problem, my ability is strong enough to even absorb light!" (implied: boastfulness, "this is well within my capabilities", general exposition) and it to get translated by Viz (I hate Viz, fan translations by experienced groups are typically better) as a flat statement with zero nuance.

[theNater]

Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).

Arthas' methodology is to light houses on fire, then attack those fleeing the flames.

Indeed. Arthas is, from his perspective, about to do the most painful and difficult thing he will ever have to do in his life, something that goes against every fiber of his being as a prince and paladin, because as he understands it there is no choice at all that gets the city out of this OK. And Uther is refusing to help. Is it any wonder he snapped?

When soldiers murder civilians, some people call it a war crime. But isn't the real crime refusing to help the murderers?

[Seppl]

When soldiers murder civilians, some people call it a war crime. But isn't the real crime refusing to help the murderers?

The whole point of the matter is that these people are no longer civilians at this point but enemy sleeper agents (though unwittingly) who will attack before dawn. There is no real world equivalent to this because mind control this powerful does not exist. Think about Hollywood style hypnosis: You are a CIA agent. The (innocent) victim of the hypnosis is already aiming a gun at the president. Do you shoot to stop them? Maybe there is a way to break the hypnosis but you do not know how. They are pulling the trigger. 3. 2. 1. What did you do? The answer was probably not to conduct a meeting with your friends to discuss the morality of the situation and express your feelings towards the cruelty of this moral dilemma. Either you shot the innocent hypnosis victim or the president is now dead.

[GloatingSwine]

See that's a really big and dangerous assumption that everyone has eaten the infected grain. Particularly if it was freshly delivered. There would likely be a decent amount of people who may have purchased it, but hadn't actually used it yet due to working through old food reserves. Or simply never bought that grain in the first place.

You're not thinking through the whole situation.

Not everyone needs to have eaten the infected grain because there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.

The people of Stratholme are dead. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:

“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

That's a quote from Geralt of Rivia in his first published story, and because he lives up to that, because he is in a situation where he must choose between a greater and lesser evil and refuses the choice, the greater evil wins and everyone else loses (including Geralt). Uther would do the same. He would refuse to choose the lesser of two evils because he can't bear the sin of doing it and in so doing guarantee that the greater would triumph.

And that leaves Arthas alone to bear the weight of it, and basically everything else he does in the campaign is to try and make having done that "worth it".

[Rynjin]

You're not thinking through the whole situation.

Not everyone needs to have eaten the infected grain because there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.

The people of Stratholme are dead. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:

This is an extremely suspect assumption. Assuming we're talking about greater/lesser evils, you put the city under martial law and execute anyone who shows signs of illness. Even if some turn and infect others, they're not perfectly spreading in an exponential fashion. You put down minor outbreaks, execute the injured, and prevent spread.

This takes more time, but there was to my knowledge no time crunch except for the situation at Stratholme "going nuclear' via mass spread.

Even if the issue is Mal'Ganis orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, it is arguable that preventing the turning of Stratholme into a military asset while retaining its status as...a city, and presumably a source of wealth and strategic resources, is logistically worth the loss of an arbitrary number of smaller settlements.

[theNater]

Not everyone needs to have eaten the infected grain because there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.

Important note: this version of the plague does not spread from person to person. People killed by a ghoul do not turn automatically; a necromancer has to animate them separately.

The people of Stratholme are dead. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices.

Don't forget burning to death in the fires Arthas sets.