Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

[Rynjin]

No, Sun Wukong has such a story, too. About eating peaches from the garden of the Jade Emperor. And I think there's more stories like that centering about the respective most prominent local fruit in other mythologies. Probably something to be learned about the importance of fruit in early agricultural societies.

I'm aware. I was expressing doubt as to the Greek one, though according to Rater apparently that's accurate as well? I'd never heard that one.

[GloatingSwine]

Regardless of whether it's Titans or Giants, the story is explicit that Hercules is the reason they won.

I must have also missed the time when normal mortals went into the underworld, wrestled cerberus to submission and left under their own power. These are just the most base myths. There's a whole "expanded universe" of purported feats from Greek mythology that aren't included in the base 12 labors.

In Appolodorus' version it's prophesied that a mortal will aid the gods in their war, and Heracles does indeed help, mostly by shooting giants with his poisoned arrows.

In Ovid Zeus/Jupiter does it all himself and humanity is made from the blood and gore of the giants.

He's not often depicted in visual representations of the Gigantomachy, those usually focus on the gods.

And yes, there are other stories of Heracles beyond his twelve labours. Most of them are in line with stuff the other Greek heroes got up to (wars and battles and killings of other mortals).

[Forum Explorer]

Meanwhile, Wukong's best feat of leaping to the edge of the universe is more metaphorical in reference to Buddha's reach than an actual distance...although I have no doubt that DB will take it literally and give Wukong infinite speed.

The only way Wukong might "realistically" win is if Hercules lacks a way to deal with his regeneration and put him down for good. DB will give it to him based on misinterpreting his speed though.

It's about as metaphorical as any of Herakles holding up the sky. Wukong literally jumps, literally lands somewhere, and it is literally revealed to be that he jumped from one part of Budda's hand to one of his fingers.

And I'm pretty sure he does lack a way to beat Wukong's immortality. The gods of Olympus are very explicitly not invulnerable as even mortals have managed to cut them in the past. While gods have done things like, say, rip out all of Zeus' tendons. Sure, they can survive said experiences, but they are effectively disabled by them. So Herakles managing to wound Hades isn't as big of a deal as you'd think.

Wukong is pretty much truly immortal. The gods tried and failed to kill him. Many times. Demons and sorcerers tried to kill him and failed. Many times. He's even willing to just stand there and let them try, just so he can show off how immortal he is.

[theNater]

It occurs to me that Herakles kills his enemies, then takes their stuff.
Sun Wukong takes their stuff, then kills them.

This distinction strongly favors Sun Wukong, as Herakles' invulnerability is at least partially due to wearing the Hide of the Nemean Lion.

[Anteros]

It's about as metaphorical as any of Herakles holding up the sky. Wukong literally jumps, literally lands somewhere, and it is literally revealed to be that he jumped from one part of Budda's hand to one of his fingers.

My point was that Wukong's feats are highly variable while Hercules is consistent. In one scene, Wukong is regenerating his head after having it cut from his body. In the next he's rendered unconscious by falling in a river. His highs might be higher, but his lows are lower. Given Death Battles methodology, this heavily favors Wukong, and I already stated that I fully expect him to win.

Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place. The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?" The answer there is obvious. The second is "who would actually win?" That's a lot more questionable.

And I'm pretty sure he does lack a way to beat Wukong's immortality. The gods of Olympus are very explicitly not invulnerable as even mortals have managed to cut them in the past. While gods have done things like, say, rip out all of Zeus' tendons. Sure, they can survive said experiences, but they are effectively disabled by them. So Herakles managing to wound Hades isn't as big of a deal as you'd think.

Wukong is pretty much truly immortal. The gods tried and failed to kill him. Many times. Demons and sorcerers tried to kill him and failed. Many times. He's even willing to just stand there and let them try, just so he can show off how immortal he is.

Being able to be cut up and still survive due to immortality is something they have in common. Hercules does ascend to godhood, and thus should have their regeneration as well. Feats like having their head removed and healing are things the Greek Gods are just as capable of as the Monkey King. We've established that Hercules probably doesn't have any way of killing an immortal. Does Sun Wukong have one? If not they're at a stalemate in my book.

[Anonymouswizard]

It occurs to me that Herakles kills his enemies, then takes their stuff.
Sun Wukong takes their stuff, then kills them.

This distinction strongly favors Sun Wukong, as Herakles' invulnerability is at least partially due to wearing the Hide of the Nemean Lion.

How strong is that thing? Is it just immune to bladed weapons or any physical impact? It's somewhat confusing because IIRC Herakles strangles the thing to death.


As a side note Wukong can apparently carry two mountains? I'm not sure how many earthly mountains there are to a heavenly mountain though, so he might be able to fudge a third of the former.

We also do have relatively hard numbers for Wukong's jumping ability. 108,000 li, which comes out to about 54,000 kilometres. He is strong enough to launch himself over four times the diameter of Earth in a single bound. If we also take 'the speed of a meteor' as literal we're looking at maybe 71,000m/s, but even without that we can use his jumping ability to get a rough ballpark on his lower body strength (and by 'we' I mean 'somebody else who can actually be bothered to calculate the force required'). Wukong definitely seems to be in the same league as Herakles when it comes to strength, do we have any feats from the original sources we could actually measure?

What's going to sell it is their damage resistance, and the Handsome Monkey King has the advantage of his not coming from his clothes.

[theNater]

Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place. The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?" The answer there is obvious. The second is "who would actually win?" That's a lot more questionable.

"Who would actually win" at what? If it's a Death Battle, by Death Battle rules, then those are the same question. If it's something else, you need to clearly define what it is. And if it's "fight to the death", you need to clearly indicate what counts as "death" for these immortals.

For example: when Zeus had his tendons removed, he was incapacitated until he received outside help, whereas when Sun Wukong was beheaded, his head and body were each able to move independently. So I ask you to consider: what if each contestant is ground into a fine paste? Herakles, while technically still alive, would be incapacitated indefinitely. Sun Wukong, on the other hand, would be up and walking within a few days, at most. Does this count as "death" for either of them?

How strong is that thing? Is it just immune to bladed weapons or any physical impact? It's somewhat confusing because IIRC Herakles strangles the thing to death.

The way I've heard it is "impervious to weapons", which I'm happy to work with. Herakles can strangle the lion to death because he does it bare-handed, and can skin it using a fang because the fang is not a weapon.

[Anteros]

"Who would actually win" at what? If it's a Death Battle, by Death Battle rules, then those are the same question. If it's something else, you need to clearly define what it is. And if it's "fight to the death", you need to clearly indicate what counts as "death" for these immortals.

For example: when Zeus had his tendons removed, he was incapacitated until he received outside help, whereas when Sun Wukong was beheaded, his head and body were each able to move independently. So I ask you to consider: what if each contestant is ground into a fine paste? Herakles, while technically still alive, would be incapacitated indefinitely. Sun Wukong, on the other hand, would be up and walking within a few days, at most. Does this count as "death" for either of them?

The point is that Death Battle is often wrong. We can have a discussion about who they'll pick to win while also knowing they're inaccurate.

As far as the head thing, Zeus instantly healed his head after Hephaestus split it open with a wedge for Athena to emerge, fully formed. In regards to the tendons....in the original myth, Zeus defeats both Gaia and Typhon easily at the same time. I'm not sure where the tendon story originated, but it wasn't Hesiod or Nonnus which are as close to primary sources as we're going to get considering that Hesiod is the first individual that we know of to ever record these things.

Both of those have him winning easily. The only versions of the tendon story I can find don't cite a source. I'd actually never heard of it before you brought it up, which is odd considering I studied Greek history for one of my bachelors. Of course there's going to be a million different versions of myths like this, but my point is that the original stories directly contradict this version.

Also, while we're on the topic of Hesiod. He specifically calls the Greek Gods deathless. Greek immortals are just that. There's no workaround and no magic bullet to kill them. Even Zeus can't do it, which is why he has to lock the Titans and Kronos away instead of killing them. There is a recorded story of Pan dying, but it originated much later after Christianity had taken root in the area and the Greek gods had fallen out of favor. Of course...this also means that Hercules has no method available to kill an immortal like Wukong either. On the other hand, several creatures who are described as immortal in Journey to the West do end up dying.

[Forum Explorer]

My point was that Wukong's feats are highly variable while Hercules is consistent. In one scene, Wukong is regenerating his head after having it cut from his body. In the next he's rendered unconscious by falling in a river. His highs might be higher, but his lows are lower. Given Death Battles methodology, this heavily favors Wukong, and I already stated that I fully expect him to win.

Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place. The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?" The answer there is obvious. The second is "who would actually win?" That's a lot more questionable.



Being able to be cut up and still survive due to immortality is something they have in common. Hercules does ascend to godhood, and thus should have their regeneration as well. Feats like having their head removed and healing are things the Greek Gods are just as capable of as the Monkey King. We've established that Hercules probably doesn't have any way of killing an immortal. Does Sun Wukong have one? If not they're at a stalemate in my book.

I'd disagree that Wukong's lows are lower. I mean, Herakles almost died crossing a desert and needed to be bailed out by Helios. And while water is a consistent weakness for Wukong (I mean kinda. Sometimes he seems to just ignore it, but usually he can't fight underwater), he can also just avoid it, or fly, or transform into something that can fly.

They don't really 'regenerate' is the thing. They just don't actually die. Like again, Zeus getting his tendons removed. He didn't eventually regrow his tendons. They had to retrieve his tendons and manually reinstall them in his body. Basically, if Wukong tears Herakles into pieces, Herakles won't be able to put himself together, even if he won't actually die from it. Someone else would have to do that. If Herakles tears Wukong into pieces, Wukong can reassemble himself, and if that fails, spontaneously regrow the missing parts.

Which also brings up that Wukong just has a bunch more crazy abilities. He can transform, create clones of himself, is a master thief, can command dragons and in general is a good liar/trickster. Herakles is clever sure, but typically he's very straightforward. And I only really remember him fighting with a bow, club, or his own fists.

Basically the way I see it:

Strength: Herakles is stronger. How much stronger is debatable, but I'm pretty sure Herakles takes this.
Speed: Wukong definitely, since he routinely travels to heaven and back in less time than it takes a demon to eat a monk.
Mobility: Wukong can fly, so easy win here.
Durability: Wukong again as he's immortal some seven times over and is so immortal that nothing can actually kill him. Herakles is only immortal if you take him at the god part of his story. Otherwise he's implied to be mortal.
Skill: A draw if you are being generous. Otherwise, Wukong since he fought pretty much everything in heaven and hell.
Extra Skills: Wukong by a long shot because the only 'extra' stuff Herakles has that I know about is hydra blood arrows and the durability from his lion skin armor.

[Anteros]

Definitely agree that it's only a fight if you take Hercules after ascending to godhood and scale him to the other gods. If you just look at the 12 labors then Monkey king wins in a stomp.

[Prime32]

It's worth noting that there are a number of Eastern figures that have been considered local interpretations of Heracles. He is a big strong guy with a club, dressed in a lion skin (which in India would be localised to a tiger skin), and he once fought a giant with three heads and six arms.

If any of them show up in Journey to the West, then Death Battle could potentially bring out a composite Heracles who has feats of harming Wukong in Wukong's own story.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It's worth noting that there are a number of Eastern figures that have been considered local interpretations of Heracles. He is a big strong guy with a club, dressed in a lion skin (which in India would be localised to a tiger skin), and he once fought a giant with three heads and six arms.

If any of them show up in Journey to the West, then Death Battle could potentially bring out a composite Heracles who has feats of harming Wukong in Wukong's own story.

I mean... Wukong himself is the best candidate I know of by those metrics. Big strong guy, staff instead of club, fought one of heaven's warriors whose battle-form notably included giant size and multiple heads/arms (or at least that's how OSP visualized him), and I think he's usually depicted in a tiger skin? (Not really sure about that last one, the only example off the top of my head is his depiction in God of Highschool).

So yeah, that's a lot iffier than it was in my head, actually. Maybe there are better analogs out there.

[theNater]

Of course there's going to be a million different versions of myths like this, but my point is that the original stories directly contradict this version.

When it comes to choosing between contradictory versions, there's no inherently right or wrong choice. The "original stories" are just the oldest version, which is only the "best" version if you predecide that oldest is best. Unlike history, there's no underlying real events that these stories are describing, so they can't be more or less accurate descriptions of those events.

Now, it is important to track which versions were told when and where, so we can understand how stories change over time and how they interact with the culture around them. But that is not the kind of analysis Death Battle engages in, so it's not particularly relevant in a Death Battle situation. The Death Battle crew have their own rules and guidelines about which versions to prioritize, and if they make a different choice than you or I would, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong and the other is right; it's just a different choice.

[Anteros]

When it comes to choosing between contradictory versions, there's no inherently right or wrong choice. The "original stories" are just the oldest version, which is only the "best" version if you predecide that oldest is best. Unlike history, there's no underlying real events that these stories are describing, so they can't be more or less accurate descriptions of those events.

Now, it is important to track which versions were told when and where, so we can understand how stories change over time and how they interact with the culture around them. But that is not the kind of analysis Death Battle engages in, so it's not particularly relevant in a Death Battle situation. The Death Battle crew have their own rules and guidelines about which versions to prioritize, and if they make a different choice than you or I would, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong and the other is right; it's just a different choice.

Well in that case here's my version of Journey to the West. "Monkey King is a total wimp who can't even lift his own staff, is totally not immortal, and gets totally pwnzored by anyone wearing sandals." I fully expect this version to show up in the video since all stories are apparently equal regardless of source.

Of course the original version of a story has more credibility than another that comes much later and directly contradicts it. What kind of logic is that?

[awa]

First death battle typically uses the strongest depictions of the character in question so your version would be negated right there.
Second do we know they are limiting themselves to ancient sources? They very well could pull out feats from marvel and the god of high school.
Third if they do limit themselves to ancient sources wheres the cut off? they may decide that Ovid is just as good as homer even if one is far older than the other and I personally would not consider that a problem.

I mean of all the dumb things that death battle does not giving priority to the oldest depictions doesn't even register, if anything they favor the most recent depictions of a character.

[theNater]

Of course the original version of a story has more credibility than another that comes much later and directly contradicts it.

What are you using the word "credibility" to mean here? It's a very strange word to apply to fiction. Especially deliberately incredible fiction, like tales of gods, monsters. superheroes and the like.

[Lemmy]

What are you using the word "credibility" to mean here? It's a very strange word to apply to fiction. Especially deliberately incredible fiction, like tales of gods, monsters. superheroes and the like.

I believe he means "closer to true canon, if true canon were at all possible for ancient mythology, and therefore should take precedence when analyzing the feats and capabilities of characters involved in the story".

[Traab]

I have to admit, the idea of creating an amalgamation of herakles from ancient and modern stories is hilarious. Now I expect to see his character from Fate and High School DxD, so now he has multiple lives if you manage to kill him, and has the ability to make you explode with his sacred gear. :p Im not sure how much of that can be done for sun wuking though as, for example, I wouldnt accept goku because he isnt explicitly the guy, just modeled after him.

[Anonymouswizard]

Im not sure how much of that can be done for sun wuking though as, for example, I wouldnt accept goku because he isnt explicitly the guy, just modeled after him.

If we're allowed to include the Lego Monkie Kid series he becomes literally invincible (also incredibly easily distracted and potentially depressed). I'm also sure we càn find a power upgrade of eighty by combing through the various Chinese and Japanese adaptations of Journey to the West.

Not that I wouldn't watch a video of a stupidly overpowered Herakles fighting a literally invincible Sun Wukong, but it feels more suited to DBX or the like.

[Lemmy]

If we're going "most powerful version before godhood", then Herakles should probably be "immortal demigod who can lift the Earth and scales to single-handedly-defeats-Gaia-and-Typhon Zeus. And can do defeat, cripple (and likely kill) divine beings, including giants and olympians".

[Iamyourking]

Spoiler: This Time

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Wukong wins, as expected.

Spoiler: Next Time

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Boba Fett vs The Predator makes me 6/6 with predictions

[Traab]

Spoiler: this time

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No real surprise, though I was impressed with the fact that they even GAVE herc a speed feat, let alone one like that. But as we all said, monkey boy had too many advantages and herc had only one long shot to even WEAKEN his opponent, let alone kill him.

Spoiler: next time

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Interesting. On the one hand, predator has some seriously advanced tech including the ability to use a small nuke. On the other, boba is stupidly over rated as a character.

[McNum]

Spoiler: This Time...

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That was way more fun than I'd anticipated. And yeah, Son Wukong won, he pretty much had to with those feats.

Spoiler: Next Time...

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On one hand, the Predator has a vast arsenal of weapons, but on the other, so does Boba Fett. What Boba has that the Predator does not, however, is armor. Beskar armor.

Gonna call it now, it'll end with a Boba Fett win similar to the Boba Fett season finale. Both fighters get a good hit on the other, but Boba gets up, because he has armor.

[awa]

Spoiler: next time

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boba fett has more comic appearances than the predator that is a huge advantage, nothing beats comics when it comes to significant outliers.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: next time

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boba fett has more comic appearances than the predator that is a huge advantage, nothing beats comics when it comes to significant outliers.

Spoiler

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Yes, but Predator has fought the Batman. Now, we all know that Batman can fight evenly with Superman, and Superman is infinitely powerful. Thus the Predator is infinitely powerful. #deathbattlelogic.

[awa]

Spoiler

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Yes, but Predator has fought the Batman. Now, we all know that Batman can fight evenly with Superman, and Superman is infinitely powerful. Thus the Predator is infinitely powerful. #deathbattlelogic.

Spoiler

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ah ha you have made the grave tactical error of assuming consistency with death battle always a dangerous choice.

[Iamyourking]

Spoiler: Next Time...

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On one hand, the Predator has a vast arsenal of weapons, but on the other, so does Boba Fett. What Boba has that the Predator does not, however, is armor. Beskar armor.

Gonna call it now, it'll end with a Boba Fett win similar to the Boba Fett season finale. Both fighters get a good hit on the other, but Boba gets up, because he has armor.

I concur that it's probably going to be the decisive factor. The Predator is physically superior, has a much better arsenal of melee weapons, and can use his cloak to get into range to use them; but none of them are going to be able to actually get through Fett's armor. His ranged weapons have a better chance of hurting Fett, but still not great-and Fett's much better equipped for a ranged fight. Another potential factor is that the Predator is going to fight fair and Fett won't, leaving them open to a cheap shot.

[Anonymouswizard]

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I am now awaiting Superman vsvSun Wukong.

Spoiler: Next Time

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I've never seen a Predator film, so I'll bow out of this one.

[Seppl]

Another potential factor is that the Predator is going to fight fair and Fett won't, leaving them open to a cheap shot.

I have not seen the later Predator films. Do we ever see a Predator when they are not on the hunt? Like do we know what technology they use and how they fight when they are serious? Presumably their technology is capable of far more than we see the hunters use.

[Iamyourking]

There are comics showing that they have gear intended for war that significantly outstrips what they use for hunting. However, we don't currently know if Death Battle will be using a specific Predator, a generic Predator with equipment and skill based on the average of their appearances, or a composite super-Predator with all the best feats for the entire race.