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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Not really, since I don't care if people don't like being corrected. Being wrong and/or distributing incorrect information should be corrected. Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons. If it's a community of people who are all absorbed in their own version of 40k and not interested in how things actually are, then outside of playing games, no, we probably wouldn't get on and wouldn't really interact or say much other than rolling our eyes at each other across the painting table.
    Well too bad, your "hardtruth, don't care about feelings" attitude isn't impressive or welcome anywhere. its just shouting at everyone to do everything by the book, and no matter how much you don't care, people don't care that you don't care and thus will be push back against you anyways, its not some righteous cause its just being stubborn and inflexible. You don't get a pass for not caring about peoples feelings just because you have a point. Being correct is not a substitute for empathy.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Nobody cares about fanfics and alternate universes, but discussing why you do or don't like stuff, why the canon is dumb or awesome is more than fair game (though as always, it'll be rare to change anyones opinion, but it can happen). Asserting that Newcrons or Primaris or whatever don't exist (going beyond some memes) in canon because you don't like them is a very different matter.

    There's also a pretty big difference between people asserting that their personal canon is the same as the actual 40k canon. Everyone's personal 40k canon is different, but the baseline cannot be argued. Share your ideas all you want, but don't be surprised when people point out where your ideas contradict facts Established Canon.
    So... you're arguing against an obviously absurd position that nobody has actually taken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons.
    This bit is especially ironic, given this whole thing started with the two missing primarchs. You know, the gaps that were intentionally left for people to excercise their imaginations on?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I'm playing more games than I have in ages, and still talk and think about warhammer just as much as I used to, I just talk about it with people I like talking to.
    I'm active in half a dozen Discord servers that are directly hobby related, and a couple more with at least a passing interest in the topic. I've also been hard at work down in the youtube mines, putting out videos whenever I have one ready, and I have a podcast now, so lots of warhammer stuff going on here.

    We should probably catch up at some point, actually, I haven't talked to you much recently.
    Last edited by Destro_Yersul; 2022-10-02 at 09:14 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Well too bad, your "hardtruth, don't care about feelings" attitude isn't impressive or welcome anywhere. its just shouting at everyone to do everything by the book, and no matter how much you don't care, people don't care that you don't care and thus will be push back against you anyways, its not some righteous cause its just being stubborn and inflexible. You don't get a pass for not caring about peoples feelings just because you have a point. Being correct is not a substitute for empathy.
    Luckily I don't care about it then isn't it? We can sit here playing I don't care that you don't care that I don't care all day, but if your feeling are hurt because someone corrects you on the lore of plastic man dollies, it's probably time to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    So... you're arguing against an obviously absurd position that nobody has actually taken?
    My take was that people were saying that their personal 40k had superiority over actual canon, and disagreed with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    This bit is especially ironic, given this whole thing started with the two missing primarchs. You know, the gaps that were intentionally left for people to excercise their imaginations on?
    I would like to note that I never said anything about the 2 missing primarchs. I don't recall there being enough info to make a call either way, though Cheese does bring up a few points that suggests heavily a certain way. Until we get more info on them (extraordinarily unlikely), it will remain that way. I think basing your army on them is dumb (for multiple reasons), and that all the "unknown origin" chapters are equally as dumb (for additional reasons), but hey, people can make up whatever back story they like.

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Luckily I don't care about it then isn't it? We can sit here playing I don't care that you don't care that I don't care all day, but if your feeling are hurt because someone corrects you on the lore of plastic man dollies, it's probably time to grow up.
    You care enough to correct people, which means your feeling anger every time you do so, seeing it as your duty to do so. which is just you getting angry over people getting minor details wrong no matter how pointless it is, because you will never correct everyone. by your logic, if someone's feelings are hurt by someone getting the lore of plastic man dollies wrong, its probably time to grow up. because someone who truly doesn't care, wouldn't care if people got the lore wrong.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2022-10-02 at 02:28 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Not really, since I don't care if people don't like being corrected. Being wrong and/or distributing incorrect information should be corrected. Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons. If it's a community of people who are all absorbed in their own version of 40k and not interested in how things actually are, then outside of playing games, no, we probably wouldn't get on and wouldn't really interact or say much other than rolling our eyes at each other across the painting table.



    That's the thing FE, they all suck. >99.99% of all fanon sucks.



    Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about having a conversation around the painting table and people



    Nobody cares about fanfics and alternate universes, but discussing why you do or don't like stuff, why the canon is dumb or awesome is more than fair game (though as always, it'll be rare to change anyones opinion, but it can happen). Asserting that Newcrons or Primaris or whatever don't exist (going beyond some memes) in canon because you don't like them is a very different matter.



    There's also a pretty big difference between people asserting that their personal canon is the same as the actual 40k canon. Everyone's personal 40k canon is different, but the baseline cannot be argued. Share your ideas all you want, but don't be surprised when people point out where your ideas contradict facts Established Canon.
    Trust me, usually correcting someone's fanfic version of stuff gets mild annoyance at most. They already know they aren't following canon, and bringing it up usually gets an eyeroll and a sigh. (Or triggering a passionate rant about why whatever piece of canon they are ignoring is bad writing and should be ignored.) The only thing you accomplish by bringing up such stuff is making yourself look like a pedantic ***.

    I read and write fanfiction, trust me, I'm very familiar with the average writing quality of my fellow fans. But just because they suck at writing doesn't mean they can't have cool ideas.


    How is that not exactly what we are talking about? Someone talking about their fanfic around the painting table is a pretty good scenario where I'd expect these conversations to happen.

    I don't think anyone is asserting that their headcanon is actually canon. Maybe that their headcanon is superior to canon, which hey, I'd have a blast discussing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Hey, that's not fanon, that's just really oldschool, when the Tyranids were a slave empire and the Genestealers an independent species.

    Edit: my problem with the FAQs is that... over 90% of people I play with don't read them. Many have never been to the GW website in their lives, most don't speak/read much English, and they certainly wouldn't bother printing out some FAQ and memorize it. Rules are in books (tm), or sometimes really old White Dwarf magazines. So GW publishes overpowered ****? That either gets shadowbanned (i.e. "Jeff, we don't want to play againts your Votann army, they are overpowered") or homebrew-comped ("Okay, Jeff, I'll play against your new army, but only if you take no more than one of that unit there and you don't use that one rule I hate"). Which is frustrating for everyone.
    So old school that I didn't even know that.

    My problem is that their FAQ site is down way too often. I'm all for making Homebrew rules though.
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  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    You care enough to correct people, which means your feeling anger every time you do so, seeing it as your duty to do so. which is just you getting angry over people getting minor details wrong no matter how pointless it is, because you will never correct everyone. by your logic, if someone's feelings are hurt by someone getting the lore of plastic man dollies wrong, its probably time to grow up. because someone who truly doesn't care, wouldn't care if people got the lore wrong.
    Not anger, just disappointment. It's really easy to look stuff up, now more than ever, so why people choose to be wrong confuses me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Trust me, usually correcting someone's fanfic version of stuff gets mild annoyance at most. They already know they aren't following canon, and bringing it up usually gets an eyeroll and a sigh. (Or triggering a passionate rant about why whatever piece of canon they are ignoring is bad writing and should be ignored.) The only thing you accomplish by bringing up such stuff is making yourself look like a pedantic ***.

    I read and write fanfiction, trust me, I'm very familiar with the average writing quality of my fellow fans. But just because they suck at writing doesn't mean they can't have cool ideas.


    How is that not exactly what we are talking about? Someone talking about their fanfic around the painting table is a pretty good scenario where I'd expect these conversations to happen.

    I don't think anyone is asserting that their headcanon is actually canon. Maybe that their headcanon is superior to canon, which hey, I'd have a blast discussing.
    Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway. I'm talking about when people are insisting that their idea of how, for example, the second war of armageddon played out is canon when there's a LOT of stuff already written about how it happened in universe and the two share little to no similar events/outcomes. It came up as someone relatively new was browsing though guard HQ's and asked about Yarrick's arm. Someone in my group insisted that the orks won and that there was no further battles and would not be convinced otherwise. Now, if that's your own version, sure, why not, but it's not something you tell people asking how the whole thing came about.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    What Is Canon? (What Isn't?)

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    By Gav Thorpe; Ex-Designer of 3rd and 4th Eds., Ex-Lead Designer of Warhammer, Ex-Lead Designer of Inquisitor, Ex-Overseer of all GW IP, Current author at Black Library, 2010
    It used to be the case that I had one foot on either side of the fence when it came to the Black Library. By day I was a games developer, evening and weekends saw me in my guise of swashbuckling author. One of the roles of the GW games developers is to liaise with Black Library, answering their questions and generally providing consultation. The BL editors are well-versed in the worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 so it was usually the case that inquiries directed to games dev would concern either very specific questions, or areas where the existing background was unclear or perhaps contradictory.
    So off the bat, Gav says that the game designers know what's up, and novel-authors sort of have to work around them. Cool. So anything that in a gamebook (Codex, Campaign book, etc.) is legit. Anything that Black Library does, has to be based off of that. This may give some context as to why Graham McNeill had to write a short story basically saying that Matt Ward was dumb, but that what Matt Ward wrote about the Ultramarines had to be true, and McNeill was then forced to kind of write around that.

    The ability of an author to write within an established setting isnít about knowing every single detail of the background (though targeted research is always good), it is about understanding the style and ethos of that universe. With a grounding in the principles of that world, an author can extend the logic (or lack) to cover places, people and situations not explicitly detailed in the source material. Thatís sort of the point of tie-in fiction; to expand on what is already published, not simply package it up in a slightly different form.
    There's a good one. An author who writes a book doesn't really need to understand all of the background. What they do need to understand, is the tone of the setting. Your fanfic where everything is great and nothing is wrong and everything goes exactly the way you want it to...This is 40K, not D&D. **** doesn't work that way. Nobody is good guys, everyone does bad things.

    If you asked me, I'd say at the core of 40K, is 'The End Justifies the Means.' The Imperials do it, the Aeldari do it, the T'au do it. Everyone in the entire setting does ****ty things for good reasons, but ****ty things nonetheless. Even Vulkan - the "Good" one - turned out to be not-so-good after all. Ciaphas Cain, on the regular, says one of the reasons he likes being a Commissar is because of the power and privileges that it affords him...But at the end of the day his role as a Commissar is to lead and inspire, and he does that, even if his internal monologue is all kinds of narcissism. It doesn't matter how or why Cain does his job - just so long as that job gets done.

    So when an author writes a story where things aren't ****ty...What 40K are you reading? What 40K do you have where people are 100% "Good Guys"? ...That character doesn't exist...Can't exist. You've botched the tone of the setting.

    Often folks ask if Black Library books are Ďcanoní. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts Ė the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War.
    Couple of things to unpack here, with Gav saying both answers at once.

    Gav immediately says that yes, there is truth. Canon is real. 2010 shows it's head because Karl-Franz is Emperor. What's an Emperor, what's a Karl-Franz? Isn't Sigmar the boss? Gav even drops the bomb that has everyone howling in rage the second they read it; Blood Angels are red. Imagine if they wrote a rule in a Codex, that said if Your Dudes aren't painted red, then they aren't Blood Angels...Oh could you imagine the fury of being told how to paint Your Dudes? Wait a second...

    However, Gav has also poisoned the well for everything that comes after. He, himself, has said that things are true. Okay, before we continue, Gav needs to determine what are facts. How do we determine what is a fact, and what isn't. We simply can't really continue if you're going to say something like that. The well is poisoned. Everybody stop. We can't do anything until we unpoison the well...

    However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.
    But you don't get to say that somebody's work isn't canon. That's a great start. When you do that, you're disrespecting the author, and disrespecting all of the people who read it, and liked it.

    Furthermore, Gav says that the only difference between someone writing fanfic at Black Library, and someone writing fanfic on a 6-hour plane ride, is that the author has a job and Black Library, and you don't. That's unfortunately true. However, authors working for Black Library aren't ever going to publish a story where Blood Angels aren't red. Almost like there's some sort of sanctity about certain things, but not other things. You've already established that, and we - as readers - also know to a point, that that's also true.

    Whether a particular authorís take on the world matches up with an individual gamerís or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.

    In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesnít make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.
    That is, when Matt Ward writes something frittata'd, Graham McNeill doesn't have to like it. That's irrelevant. But he does have to work with and/or around it, and, because McNeill is good at his job, he can do that. Conversely, Graham McNeill writes something really good, and Dan Abnett says 'I want that.' and ends up using McNeill's inspiration to write part of Know No Fear. Of course we know that McNeill and Abnett had a pretty strong working relationship so that's not news. The current equivalent would arguably be John French and ADB.

    The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the Ďgameí world Ė such as Gauntís Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, thereís no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isnít enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels Ė good, bad or indifferent as we each see them Ė so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.
    Once more we circle back to the game designers. They seem to have ultimate sway over what is and isn't canon, and it appears that a goal - one goal - of a Black Library author is to get their stuff recognised so hard that the story makes it's way into a future Codex. Presumably because "Would you like to know more?" would lead into more sales of said novel down the line.

    But ultimately I keep going back to that poisoned well and taking a drink of the poison...But you said that Blood Angels are red. There must be things we have to agree on. There has to be, otherwise how does anything get done? How do we talk to each other if nothing means anything, and anything means anything? Where do we draw that line on what we agree on? What's the criteria? Certainly, we know from a bunch of interviews (including this one I'm quoting), consistency during the Horus Heresy is of the utmost importance - they had regular meetings of at least three authors (usually the next three novels) in the room to plan things, and each author was strongly encouraged to read each others' works.

    You, actually liking something, isn't important, and, you don't get to decide that something isn't canon...You can only try and not include those aspects in your story. But once your story brushes up against the thing(s) you don't like, you have to work with and/or around it. This is why Dan Abnett early on wrote self-contained stories in the ass-end of nowhere. He didn't have to touch anything that anyone had previously written. Everything he did, he could make up on his own, and because of that, he got an early label of "Not actually 40K." ...And that's probably why non-40K players/readers also bought Abnett's work...He more or less wrote just grimdark sci-fi with 40K-paint on.

    Raven Guard were in the Damocles Gulf. Even though Deliverance is aaalllll the way over here, and Raven Guard should have nothing to do with the T'au because that's not their area of operations...Doesn't matter. It's possible that Raven Guard are in the Gulf, there's nothing actually preventing several Companies being there...So how do you make sense of that? Is Deliverance left undefended? What happens? You can write a bunch of stories about the understrength Raven Guard without their Chapter Master, without several Captains, trying to maintain several Sectors of space...You can even write a story about how Kayvaan Shrike was ad-hoc elected Chapter Master in the field, and how that does not sit right with those back on planet who didn't get a vote.

    ...There's so much you can do, even with something frittata'd like Raven Guard in the Damocles Gulf. It doesn't make sense, it's kind of stupid. But it did happen and what do you do with that? How do you write an Ultramarines story after Matt Ward writes so much dumb stuff...Dunno. You just figure it out.


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    By ADB, currently the best or second-best author Black Library has, 2011
    Part of the problem is that 40K lore is essentially divided into 3 sub-companies all producing material, and as with all things, quality, themes, perceptions and intentions can be completely different. Games Workshop produces the games and core setting lore, with 30ish years of history, releasing a couple of sourcebooks a year. Black Library is the publishing arm, mostly centred on novels, and still very new in terms of producing canon. The third is Forge World, an allied design studio and miniature production company.

    Note: An even more recent addition is Fantasy Flight Games, who produce the 40K roleplaying game, but even now, Iím not sure just where they stand. Like I said, this is a complicated hellhole of treachery, madness and deceit. As it stands, the official line is that there are three factions empowered to ďcreate IPĒ (an exact quote), and thatís GW, BL and FW. Given that the 40K RPG is mostly made by folks working in or around the main three companies, I think itís fair to say that its lore counts as canon, too.
    As always, there's so much stuff to read that nobody can really read it all. How does anyone write anything coherant? ...Well, as Gav Thorpe said, you ask somebody.

    Crowd-sourcing information has never been easier. There's not just one, but two wikis dedicated to 40K knowledge, and both of them make sure to point out when something is inconsistent - turns out that there's nowhere near as many inconsistencies as you think. Nothing really contradicts anything in real-time. But the status quo does change, often and regularly.

    I got it wrong myself, right up until I was in a meeting with the companyís Intellectual Property Manager Ė a situation I find myself in several times a year, as part of the Horus Heresy novel series team. When I was specifically asking about canon, he replied with something Iíve tried to take to heart: ďItís all real, and [n]one of itís real.Ē
    It was a bit of an epiphany, to tell you the truth.

    In short, the belief is usually that the design studio has precedence, and everything else isnít canon. Thatís actually wrong, but several aspects reinforce the misjudgement, not least that a few top brass quotes have been poorly phrased or taken out of context; some novelists wildly diverging from the source material for reasons apparent to no one but themselves; and the fact that the design studio has 30 years of history where it was essentially the sole source of canon. Its products are the foundation for the whole license Ė itís the source, the core, the chewy nougat centre at the heart of it all. With the weight of history and its place as by far the most widespread, its published lore reaches the most eyes and ears.

    I donít begrudge that. In fact, in 98% of situations, I do my level best to cleave to whatever design studio sourcebook ties into what Iím writing. Iím an unashamed fanboy (you should see me fall to gleeful pieces in Horus Heresy meetingsÖ), and Iíve spent 20 years loving the 40K universe. Iím in this to add to it, to explore it, to tell stories within it Ė not to change it to Hell and back on some sneering authorial whim.
    So for a long time, there were no novels. Or at least, no novels worth reading. You read the Codecies, and that's the extent that your knowledge needs to be. However, in the last 20 years, that's changed. ADB believes that the novels are definitely worth reading and definitely count as part of the Universe - certainly, he's an author, he would say that. But again, he brings up that the Horus Heresy is special. The canon surrounding the Heresy is planned, it's intentional. When somebody drops a hint to the Lost Primarchs, you can bet your arse it has editorial approval, along with the nodding approval of at least two other authors, who know have to know what you just did.

    Furthermore, your job is not to change anything. Only add. If something happens, you roll with it. Explore and add. Never change.

    This is one of those great times to bring up Female Space Marines:

    If somebody had said that whilst Cawl was making Primaris Marines, he found a way to take female Neophytes and get them through the process. Most people would be on board. Starting in M42 and Guilliman arisen, you've added Female Marines to the story. Everything that happened, still happened. But starting from now, we can tell a few more stories that we couldn't tell before.

    If you want to go all the way back to day dot, and insert Marines into the Thunder Warriors, and go from there. You're gonna have lots of problems. You have to basically rewrite the entirety of the setting, and of course you're gonna need to address that if female Space Marines exist, then Sisters of Silence and the Sororitas are basically pointless - both on a conceptual level, and in the narrative itself - which undercuts Goge Vandire, which changes the entirety of the modern Ecclesiarchy... You're gonna have problems, and those problems don't go away by calling people bigots.

    Once again, Frauka's limiter. We have to believe that it's limited to Ravenor, and those novels only. There's something actually special about it that can't be replicated. You can replicate if you want, for your self-contained story. But we generally have to stay away from it if we want the Universe to make sense. When somebody writes something you don't like, you try not to touch it. But you do have to acknowledge it.

    Black Library can suffer more than most when it comes to terms of whatís official and what isnít, for two reasons. Firstly, at its inception and during the first few years, it seemed unapologetically non-canon, and from my (limited) perception, it didnít seem to try to be anything else. It was separate from the design studio, and that was that. Times have changed, but weíre lingering in the aftermath. Like hotel room stains of dubious origin, bad things can stick, and stick hard.
    Yes. Grognards can't adapt. We know this. We say stuff like "Welcome to 9th." or "Go back to 5th." or "The future is now, old man."

    Next you'll have people saying we don't actually know anything about the Lost Primarchs. Oh wait we know quite a bit to tell stories with.

    Secondly, like any publisher, Black Library releases work from a host of different people, each with their own perceptions and preferences. Because of the sheer amount of material released, conflicts arise between what seem like established facts. One author has a weapon firing one way, and another author describes its mechanics completely differently. Is there an official stance? No, on a lot of in-universe stuff, thereís usually not. Interpretation and imagination within the framework is the name of the game. The issue is when people consider that a flaw, not a feature. Itís supposed to be an open invitation to creative freedom, but instead itís often disparaged as a way to hide mistakes or lore clashes.
    (Donít get me wrong, I know mistakes do occur. Having loose canon is no excuse for crappy research or poor writing, and I would never suggest otherwise.)
    Fantastic. ADB says authors write things differently, and mistakes are made sometimes. Having different interpretations on mechanics on how something works is often fine. After all, the Necrons and the Aeldari both have an event called the War In Heaven. This was probably a mistake. However, that mistake was apparently caught very early on, and now it's been written that it almost feels like two sides of the same story, and if you try, you can actually make an argument as to how the Eldar Pantheon and the C'Tan are actually the same.

    But then ADB goes ahead and says that there's no excuse for poor research. You actually do need to know what's written before you add to it, before you have a different interpretation of it. The Thousand Sons see The Warp this way. The White Scars see the Warp that way. Who is wrong? ...Actually neither is wrong and you make a story out of it. You make a story about a Thousand Sons Librarian getting picked up by White Scars and you have their viewpoints converge. You explore the possibility that both the Thousand Sons and the White Scars are both correct and how do you reconcile that? ...I mean, a good author would do that.

    As a personal example, when describing the retinal/eye lens displays in Space Marine helmets, my ideas for what a soldier can see and do with his HUD are fairly divergent from most other authorsí descriptions. I can show lore to back my viewpoint up, and they can bring lore to highlight theirs. I can also wax poetic on why I think my version is better, and makes for a better touch in a story, blah blah blah. I donít see it as a problem, but many fans loathe this kind of thing.
    If both sides can back up their viewpoint (and I mean that they actually can), then I love that sort of thing. It's literally a basis for a story that two things can be correct at the same time...Something, something Thousand Sons and White Scars and the Warp.

    Essentially, any difference is immediately considered a deviation. Any contradiction is automatically seen as a mistake. Although Iíve been intensely fortunate with fan feedback, and my reviews are most definitely on the kinder and more favourable side of the wall, Iíve seen a few mentions where someone flat-out says Iíve got a specific detail wrong, purely because theyíve chosen to cite a variant source as canon. Itís, shall we say, ďfrustrating,Ē but I donít blame anyone for thinking it. Itís a complicated situation.
    ...What's a "variant source"?

    But I do like that ADB accept that fans can - and will - point out his inconsistencies if he has any. That's part of the job and you just deal with. Maybe try and fix it later.

    Iíve read 40K novels that categorically violate my opinions and perceptions of how 40K works, and I have no trouble ignoring them afterwards. Similarly with some design studio sourcebooks, if I come across an idea that I find patently, uh, ďin conflictĒ with my views (thereís some diplomacy for you), Iíll just ignore it and try not to write about it.
    Perfect ADB. But do you overtly go out of your way to contradict it? Absolutely not. Whether you like something or not has no bearing on whether or not it exists.

    Interestingly, as creators in this setting, weíre under no strict obligation to reference one another, and cooperation is usually self-driven. (The exception to this is the Horus Heresy series, which is extremely well-organised, and all of us are in constant communication.) Sure, editorial prefers it when stuff ties in together, but itís not a mandate. Everyone views the setting differently, after all.
    I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking ďWhy didnít you reference X in your novel?Ē I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, ďBecause X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.Ē Thatís show business for you.
    Once again, another mention that the Horus Heresy and the details surrounding it have a tight lid.

    ...I wish I knew what [X] was and who wrote it.

    So, is there a consensus?
    Negatory. There really isnít. On one hand, thatís a bit of an emotional kick to the balls. I mean, everything you do will be seen as incorrect by Some Internet Guy, and they have as much right to enjoy 40K stuff as me, you, or anyone else. I donít sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I mightíve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation. [...] But on the other hand, loose canon is one of the keys to why 40K has evolved into something so completely awesome.
    Good. ADB doesn't set out to make people mad, and he doesn't particularly enjoy it when he does.

    Loose canon is great. It allows for a bunch of interesting stories and lots of ideas to be explored. However, as ADB pointed out, loose canon doesn't mean you get to contradict something that already happened. That's Bad Form, and possibly a sign of poor research and maybe even poor writing. At worst, as Gav Thorpe says, it's disrespectful.

    Iím being dead serious, here. Yes, it can be considered a mark of IP laziness, and yes, Iím not blind to the fact that 20-30 years ago, a lot of 40Kís core concepts were referential half-jokes thrown around by amateur game designers, rather than the underpinnings of a more classic sci-fi setting ďenvisionedĒ by ivory tower artistes. But the loose framework has allowed three decades of fresh canon to flood in, filling in the details without necessarily feeling too constrained by what came before.
    Get rid of the jokes. 40K is serious business now.
    Fill in the Plot Gaps, and definitely fill in the Plot Holes.

    ...Hey that's what I've been saying is happening. Damn ADB, get your own arguments.

    Even as someone who fiercely cleaves to canon at every opportunity, Iím constantly surprised by the sheer amount of white space left open to explore and set up shop.
    Couldn't agree more. There's so much space and room to work. But people want to work with what's already been done. I explicitly wrote that I would've wrote the ending to the Prefectia Campaign (T'au Third Sphere Expansion) differently. Kor'sarro wouldn't have been character assassinated. But that's not actually my place and I understand that. But then if that had happened I wouldn't have Primaris Kor'sarro, a model I really like, just sitting on my shelf... I don't buy models that don't do anything - and yet there's Primaris Kor'sarro. I don't like that the Rubicon kills most people that try it, but apparently - somehow - GW has decided that nearly all main characters have survived it.

    But hey, them's the breaks.

    In my second fanfic that I actually wrote, I didn't change anything. I just feel that there should've been a bond between Tor Garadon and Sven Bloodhowl to give the scene - the final victory push, that is - some actual weight to it. The events still happened the way that they happened...I will try to make myself find a way to like Tor Garadon.

    Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were bestest friends. Unfortunately that seems to never have been actually shown on the page. I can see it. I can envision it. But it was never written. Wait...If I can see it, and I can envision it, but it was never actually written...I can have them do anything I want, so long as I conform to the fact that they were friends, which I'm fine with doing.

    Can I write a scene where Russ and Dorn are not friends and break the relationship between their Legions/Chapters forever? ...No.

    My idea for the Rhana Dandra was hard-deleted out of my brain when the Fall of Cadia happened, and I accept that.

    Within the possibility of endless interpretation lies the potential for freedom. What matters is respecting the source material, contributing to it, and sticking to the theme.
    Respecting the source material!? How dare you!?

    And that ties right back into my first column, because no matter whoís writing the details, 40K has some unalterable themes, etched in the stoniest of stone. Theyíre the key. Theyíre what matter most.
    Get the atmosphere right, and youíre halfway there.
    40K has unalterable themes? ...[Poooooop].... like what? What rules do Black Library authors need to follow? Gav Thorpe said something really similar and I need to know. Ahhhh....


    Now apparently there are people who don't care what ADB and Gav have to say. "Death of the Author" is a thing, sure. But it's a really obtuse (?) thing to say it's a thing when the authors are still alive and currently working.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-02 at 10:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post

    Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway. I'm talking about when people are insisting that their idea of how, for example, the second war of armageddon played out is canon when there's a LOT of stuff already written about how it happened in universe and the two share little to no similar events/outcomes. It came up as someone relatively new was browsing though guard HQ's and asked about Yarrick's arm. Someone in my group insisted that the orks won and that there was no further battles and would not be convinced otherwise. Now, if that's your own version, sure, why not, but it's not something you tell people asking how the whole thing came about.
    I'll admit I've never encountered that situation before. Where someone was blatantly trying to peddle their fanfic as canon I mean.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Yeah, I'm not trying to peddle my fanfic as canon. It's more a fun thought experiment to see how close I can stick to canon, while still doing what I want to do.

    It's not about breaking the fluff, it's about seeing how far it can be bent.

    But hey, I passed my MS-900 Exam half an hour ago, so maybe I'll have some things painted soon, which y'all are more likely to actually be interested in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were bestest friends. Unfortunately that seems to never have been actually shown on the page. I can see it. I can envision it. But it was never written. Wait...If I can see it, and I can envision it, but it was never actually written...I can have them do anything I want, so long as I conform to the fact that they were friends, which I'm fine with doing.

    Can I write a scene where Russ and Dorn are not friends and break the relationship between their Legions/Chapters forever? ...No.
    ...So I thought about it.

    1. Russ executes XI. 7-9 Primarchs witness this, depending on whether or not Russ and XI are part of the nine. Dorn is one of the witnesses. He accuses Russ of not being his brother, and Russ accuses Dorn of having his head up his arse. Both of them are heartbroken. Russ says he was doing what needed to be done, Dorn said 'Yeah, but not that.' Dorn needs this lesson drilled into him, and this is another of that same lesson. Dorn says that if Russ really is willing to kill his Brothers just because Dad said so, he really is just a dog taking commands from his master.
    (You can have Angron as another witness there for this exchange, so the phrasing gets to the World Eaters)

    2. This is why even though they are best friends, for some reason, throughout the whole Heresy, they never seem to interact with each other. The wounds are still healing.

    3. After the Heresy when the dust clears. Dorn approaches Russ; 'Dad said I was supposed to kill Him...Instead, I put Him on the Throne.' Russ is mortified that their Father is now in a state of undeath. But Dorn reiterates that either Dad died, or the Imperium did. When it comes to duty, there can't be a line in the sand, and he understands that now. Dorn regrets what he said, Russ regrets what he said. Now that they know, Dorn asks if they can be brothers again. Russ says they never weren't. Then they Predator Handshake.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-03 at 12:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Not anger, just disappointment. It's really easy to look stuff up, now more than ever, so why people choose to be wrong confuses me.
    I think the word "choose" is your answer here.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.

    But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.

    I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.

    I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?

    I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?

    I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.
    Firstly, welcome. It's not always like this, but as this is the internet there is often a mix of strong emotions, opinions, and poorly expressed text that doesn't give much room for nuance. Please don't hold that against us

    You want large-sized models? We can do large-sized models. They cost *roughly* the same as a box of smaller minis, but at least they have the bonus of not needing to be assembled so you save on glue, tools, etc.

    Alternatively, try eBay. There's a very big second-hand market for GW stuff, especially if you're not all that interested in buying regularly, or just want cool stuff without worrying about it being coherent. You might have to be a little creative about fixing some of the more broken stuff, but that can be a lot of fun if you're after something wonky and rough looking, like Orks.

    You want cheaper paints? A company called Revell does a line called 'Aqua Colour' which are 99% the same tone as GW paints, for about 66% of the price, depending on where you look. Vallejo are also a pretty good brand, they're not quite as close in tones but are cheaper.

    Certainly don't bother buying GW branded brushes and stuff - you can either pay £2.99 for one of their fine details brushes, or pick up a pack of like, 5 different brushes for £2 from your local art/stationary store. They're exactly the same - although if you were wanting especially good quality, look out for ones with natural-fibre bristles (hog hair or horse hair). The ones I get are about the same price as GW brushes, but they last 3x as long before shedding, bending, and going weird.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    My take was that people were saying that their personal 40k had superiority over actual canon, and disagreed with that.
    Depends on what you mean by superior. Do you mean 'better'? That's a matter of subjective taste. I'm pretty sure I could write a version of the Butlerian Jihad that would be better than the one Brian Herbert wrote. I'm equally certain I couldn't get Brian Herbert to accept my version, so I suppose he's got me there. It would still be better, but no matter how much so it is, it will only matter to me and any of my friends I can get to listen to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    but hey, people can make up whatever back story they like.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway.
    Could have said this in the first place and saved us both a lot of time. You don't want to engage with that part of the hobby. That's fine, you do you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.

    I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?

    I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.
    Hi there! Don't worry, most of us are friendly. The Total War games deal with the Warhammer Fantasy setting, official support for which has ended beyond those games, more or less. They're fun games though.

    For books, I don't think I'd start with Horus Heresy. It's huge, and an enormous time investment if you want to read even half of it. Go with Ciaphas Cain, doesn't really matter which since they're mostly self contained, but some of the later ones do contain references to earlier works. The oversaturation on human-focused books is by design, I'm pretty sure. Some of my xenos-loving friends have lamented this in the past.

    Miniature painting is a rewarding hobby, if you ask me, but 40k does tend to be lacking on larger-scale display models. Check out ebay if you're on a budget, and don't be concerned about using GW's paint line. There are a lot of paint manufacturers, and you don't need that many paints to start out. Vallejo is great, Army Painter is fine, and I hear very good things about ProAcryl. You can use craft paints if you really want to, they will certainly work, but I don't recommend it as they tend to contain larger pigments.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.

    But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.

    I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.

    I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?

    I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.
    For display models there's the McFarlane range. Action figure sized articulated models, pre-coloured or unpainted. Mostly Primaris and Chaos marines at the moment, but there are some Orkz and Tyranids. Seen quite a few people do interesting stuff with them elsewhere.

    For sitting on a shelf type models they're probably your best bet, but runner-ups would be things like Imperial Knights or Ork Stompas, which are big enough to appreciate from a distance, but they are also more expensive.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?
    Army Painter and Vallejo are the two general go-to ranges for paints (Army Painter's probably the best value for money, Vallejo has the most options in terms of colours available), although to be fair most ranges are better value for money than GW. To the point that I would honestly suggest somone getting into miniature painting try to avoid GW's Citadel paints where possible just from a financial standpoint (ditto for paintbrushes, glue, putty, etc.).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I like Tamiya as far as paints go. Reasonably priced and can cover a decent amount of ground with their selection.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Greetings all,

    I hope some of you find the intersection of Army Painter Speedpaints and Games Workshop's Eldar Corsair for Kill Team of interest. If so, read on and if not steer clear and go the next message please!

    I had little interest in purchasing anything new from Games Workshop. I dropped out of Warhammer 40K in 5th edition or so. I had all the specialist games stuff I wanted, and a lot of older miniatures that I still use in various games. However, some of my local players have been tinkering around with Kill Team. The sharp eyed among you may have seen my Kill Team games have gone up on the tracker, but no real reports on it.

    Well, this led to our local wargaming group trying to run a Kill Team themed event in order to reach out to our local community of gamers and get them together in one place.



    This coming event led me to do something I did not expect to do at all. I purchased a Kill Team from Games Workshop! I still have plenty of old models, and had been using some older Orks as my team. However, I was at a FLGS and saw the Corsairs box sitting there, and I also found a box of the Army Painter Speed Paints.



    With that being said, I decided to commit to painting these new Corsairs only with Speed Paints. They ended up turning out like this in the end, and took about 1/3rd of the usual time for me. Properly prepping the models with undercoats before applying the speed paints is the key to their "success"



    You can see how this experiment went on the blog here:
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'll admit I've never encountered that situation before. Where someone was blatantly trying to peddle their fanfic as canon I mean.
    Sadly this was rather common from a small handful of people in the group, more than a few of which seemed to get their info from 1d4 chan and then hold onto it like a dying man to nearby driftwood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Depends on what you mean by superior. Do you mean 'better'? That's a matter of subjective taste. I'm pretty sure I could write a version of the Butlerian Jihad that would be better than the one Brian Herbert wrote. I'm equally certain I couldn't get Brian Herbert to accept my version, so I suppose he's got me there. It would still be better, but no matter how much so it is, it will only matter to me and any of my friends I can get to listen to it.
    I mean superiority as in that they think their version should have primacy over what the black library authors wrote for everyone. I'm rather sure they belive their ... material ... to be superior in quality too, but then, in that meaning, they are very much mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Could have said this in the first place and saved us both a lot of time. You don't want to engage with that part of the hobby. That's fine, you do you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius
    If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts.
    I thought I made it very clear. Do whatever you want to for your version, just don't push it as canon. There's a clear demarkation between Destro_Yersul's 40k universe and The 40k universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.

    But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.

    I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.
    As others have said, 40k is the setting, but the story is about the Imperium and the various xenos are there as a tangent and/or background to that. That's not to say that there's not a bunch of good books and series about the other factions, but the Imperium is going to be getting 90% or more of the screentime, and marines are going to be claiming the lions share of that 90% too.

    If you don't want an Imperium focus, then the HH is a terrible place to start, since it's effectively all marines all the time, that is itself then turned up to 11. There are a lot of places to start, but, I would suggest that if you have a faction you are sympathetic to, starting with their books would be a good way to get into the universe. The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise. Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost. If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average. Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you. For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good. For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting. The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k. For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others. For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly. Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.

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    Tau are actually my goal for my first things to be painted, simply because their stuff seems to be a bit brighter and more colorful. Which on one hand makes for a more varied painting experience, but for the other thing it simply MISSES the flavor of the universe. For a race I am unsure if "Star Trek Confederacy, but violent" is my jam tbh.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    Tau are actually my goal for my first things to be painted, simply because their stuff seems to be a bit brighter and more colorful. Which on one hand makes for a more varied painting experience, but for the other thing it simply MISSES the flavor of the universe. For a race I am unsure if "Star Trek Confederacy, but violent" is my jam tbh.
    There's a trilogy of books (along with a handful of short stories) under the name 'Farsight', who is a Tau hero of great renown. I haven't read them, but from what I've heard they're pretty good and they're also one of the most consistent non-Imperium points of view. The Aeldari tend to be all 'mysterious' and 'you humans couldn't possibly understand our ancient ways' kind of obnoxious which makes reading about them a little bit tedious, Ork PoV is rare and their fon-et-ik ak-sents get on my nerves very quickly, but the Tau tend to be idealists and freely discuss what they're doing and why as a point of pride.

    If anything, stories starring the Tau are one of the places where the Imperium is painted unapologetically as villainous, rather than the usual "everyone is pretty bad" middle ground that the fluff usually walks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.
    In 2022? ...I have no idea where you would start. I do know that at this point the Horus Heresy is 50 novels long - only two-thirds are worth reading and only about a third are actually good. Point is, I don't think HH is a good place to "start", unless you're in it for the long haul.

    As far as lack of xeno-PoV stories go, I'm pretty sure that that's a feature, not a bug. We, as Humans, can't really write aliens without making them "relatable." That is, the second authors start humanising aliens, they're not aliens anymore. That said, you can simply plug your chosen Faction into a search engine, and you may come up with a handful of books where your Faction is the main character (Infinite and the Dvine, Path of the Eldar, Farsight, etc.). But unfortunately those wells are really shallow...Fortunately, that means you get to make up a lot of your own stuff.

    IMO, the biggest problem with Aeldari, T'au and Necrons, is that in my head, they should be entirely unrelatable. But, humans can only write humans, I suppose. That's why in the better stories that feature xenos as secondary protagonists, the authors don't make them talk.

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    You can get cheap paints from almost anywhere. Any acrylic paint will work if you're willing to water it down enough. All's model-paint really is acrylic paint with more water and the formula/ratio is worked out pretty well.

    I strongly recommend Tamiya and Vallejo paints. The only reason I use GW paints is for colour-matching. As I've moved away from GW models, I've moved away from GW paints. If you don't particularly like any of Games Workshop's paint schemes on their official models, you don't really need GW paints. If a paint range has a colour that works for you, use it.

    I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.
    One of the biggest failings of GW is that their Easy-to-Build / Easy-to-Paint range is focussed very strictly on Space Marines and Necrons. Necrons are relatively easy to paint until you come to the character models.
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  23. - Top - End - #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    I mean superiority as in that they think their version should have primacy over what the black library authors wrote for everyone. I'm rather sure they belive their ... material ... to be superior in quality too, but then, in that meaning, they are very much mistaken.
    As a blanket statement, I must disagree. There are enough decent unpublished writers and enough bad published works that the venn diagram of 'good warhammer fiction' and 'published by BL' is not a circle. Generally though, yes.

    I thought I made it very clear. Do whatever you want to for your version, just don't push it as canon. There's a clear demarkation between Destro_Yersul's 40k universe and The 40k universe.
    Certainly, I never claimed there wasn't. What I said was that no one can tell me what I must or must not include in my version, and anyone who tries to do so is wrong.

    As others have said, 40k is the setting, but the story is about the Imperium and the various xenos are there as a tangent and/or background to that. That's not to say that there's not a bunch of good books and series about the other factions, but the Imperium is going to be getting 90% or more of the screentime, and marines are going to be claiming the lions share of that 90% too.

    If you don't want an Imperium focus, then the HH is a terrible place to start, since it's effectively all marines all the time, that is itself then turned up to 11. There are a lot of places to start, but, I would suggest that if you have a faction you are sympathetic to, starting with their books would be a good way to get into the universe. The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise. Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost. If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average. Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you. For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good. For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting. The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k. For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others. For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly. Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.
    I can second most of these, especially Ahriman. It also occured to me that I should add The Infinite and the Divine, which is Necron focused. I don't like the Newcrons, so I haven't read it, but a friend of mine who does like them assures me it's good.
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  24. - Top - End - #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    • The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise.
    • Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost.
    • If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average.
    • Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you.
    • For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good.
    • For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting.
    • The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k.
    • For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others.
    • For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly.
    • Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.
    Both the Path of the-, Eldar and Dark Eldar, come highly recommended to me. I can attest to the Dark Eldar being good. Maybe one day I'll read the Eldar one...Maybe. It's on my list...Just very, very, very far down and tends to go lower.

    Dan Abnett writes great stuff. It doesn't really tell you anything about 40K, but it does tell you the tone of the setting, probably better than ADB does. His more recent stuff is pretty good - except Pariah, avoid that.

    I can recommend Farsight. It doesn't hold a candle to the better stuff. But it isn't bad, and for Black Library, that actually is a compliment.

    Ciaphas Cain I strongly recommend - especially for newer readers. It's...Fun (?), I suppose is the word, and that makes it meme-y and accessible. But it's not afraid to go into the GrimDark when it needs to, and it tends to avoid lingering too long around topics where "The Imperium is Bad Guys." There is a surprising amount of depth to the story if you actually know what you're reading, but, if you don't know what you're reading, the novel doesn't dwell on things. However Cain quickly becomes...Pulpy (?) if you start reading anything by the better authors.

    ...Hey! Soul Drinkers aren't Chaos...You'd know that if you'd read it
    ...But yeah you've already mentioned Night Lords and Ahriman and those are the two best ones by far - by far. Read those two first and we'll talk about Iron Warriors and Word Bearers later.

    I wouldn't recommend Shira Calpurnia. I would, however, recommend Atlas Infernal - it's got a bit of everything. However I would recommend reading AI before Ahriman. Similarly, with a bit of everything; The War of the Beast. It bounces around a lot and touches on a bunch of stuff about how the Imperium does - and more importantly, doesn't - work. However, the quality in WotB varies wildly, and like the Heresy, because it's bouncing around everywhere, like at least a third of the story is irrelevant unless you're into that sort of thing. Can recommend the Rogue Trader books, but very much in the same way that I might recommend Abnett's stuff; It's good fiction, it's not good 40K.

    Deathwatch is great. But if you're not looking for Marines, then don't go looking for Marines.

    I'm gonna give a hard recommend for the Forge of Mars trilogy. I've said it before and I'll say it again; McNeill isn't the best writer in Black Library. But as far as I'm concerned he nails what 40K is to me; Heroic Fiction in a GrimDark setting. People legitimately trying to do good things - and succeeding - in a setting that tries to stop them. I'll recommend nearly everything by McNeill, and Forge of Mars is no exception.

    I'll also give a recommend to the Crusade of Fire, by William/Billy King. He doesn't write a lot of things. But everything he does write is "above the bar."

    Then of course I already mentioned The Infinite and the Divine. It's...Solid. That's the word I would use.

    The Dawn of Fire series has a lot of stuff about current fluff and can tell you where the setting is going. But since in 40K, Guilliman is the equivalent of the Emperor, much of the story revolves around him and I understand that just saying that 'Guilliman and/or Ultramarines don't actually suck as much as you think they do' can set old(er) players into a rage, especially if they haven't read McNeill's Ultramarines books, because well, they have Ultramarines in them. ...Uriel Ventris wouldn't be The Guy if there wasn't something to him.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-04 at 09:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style? I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire. Got any other, more recent suggestions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style? I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire. Got any other, more recent suggestions?
    Ones that spring to mind are:
    Atlas Infernal. One of the only stand-alone books I can think of, and it's quite good. Czevak is totally fine with throwing people under the bus and what's wrong with Space Marines picking up Chaos Artefacts if it helps us win? Czevak doesn't understand your problem.

    The Horusian Wars. Not John French's best work (that's Ahriman, if you're asking). But if you're chasing Inquisitors, then this series is the closest you're gonna get to Ravenor - not Eisenhorn, Eisenhorn is uhh...Next level grimdark. The only thing that comes even remotely close to Eisenhorn is...

    The Inquisition War. The OG*. Try to find the oldest copy you can. Reprints and digital editions have been...Edited. Modern readers of The Inquisition War will likely find that nothing really makes sense (What do you mean you can just go to a Demon World? Wait...Callidus Assassins can turn into Genestealers now? ...Just...It was 2nd Ed. There was no canon yet), and why is everything awful. Not GrimDark and edgy. Actually awful. Welcome to 2nd Ed.

    Watchers of the Throne. Not Inquisition. But close enough. Chris Wraight does a good job and I enjoy reading his work. Hmm...Not really Abnett's style though. Wraight writes more like McNeill and that means I will approve.
    EDIT: It's Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

    The Crusade of Fire. Again, not Inquisition. But it's an ensemble cast featuring Macharius and his bodyguards - including Battle Leader Logan Grimnar, yes that one. I've already recommended this.
    EDIT: Mostly a Guard novel, 'cause it's Macharius, obviously.

    Forge of Mars. Probably the least like what you're after, and that's why I've put it last. But again, a wide cast with an array of power levels and personalities, and gives an insight on how Imperial starships work (mostly via basically-slavery). I think McNeill had a couple of good ideas left over from Mechanicum and just kept going on that train.

    *It's not the OG. But Ian Watson did also write the actual OG and Inquisition War can legitimately be seen as a sequel to Space Marine. But Space Marine has not aged well and is basically unreadable - figuratively, and I think, literally 'cause it's one of the few novels that Black Library actually doesn't endorse anymore - the reasons are probably obvious if you've read it.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-04 at 10:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style? I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire. Got any other, more recent suggestions?
    There is also the Vaults of Terra series - currently up to two books, only one of which I have read (The Carrion Throne) but I very much enjoyed it. It's about 70:30 mix of Inquisitor and Custodes, so it blends investigation and interrogation with more traditional superhuman stabbery, and is one of the few non-Ciaphas Cain novels that ends on a note that approaches hopeful rather than grim and nihilistic.
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    I'm very surprised no one here has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.

    It's a campaign journal, so definitely not canon, but it gives a very good feel for the setting from the Grunt's point of view. Also it's utterly hilarious.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Thanks for the suggestions. I will see what I can find.

    I have read the Inquisition War ..... when it first came out even! <gasps and shudders from across the audience>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I'm very surprised no one here has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.

    It's a campaign journal, so definitely not canon
    After the conversation we just had, you're...Surprised...That no-one has mentioned a fanfic? Okay.
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