A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    As for your rule, its a good compromise to let people play with their toys, though personally I'd just copy the old box set and have damage added all at once at the end of the battleround regardless of unit.
    Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with Kill Team, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's second choice - and so on.

    That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.

    How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.
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  2. - Top - End - #662
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with Kill Team, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's second choice - and so on.

    That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.

    How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.
    Did you do that in every phase? Can definitely see the advantage for shooting, but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement. How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?

    (Assuming that by ‘I go you go’ you mean alternating activations within a phase. ‘I go, you go’ is typically assumed to mean the current turn order of 40k!)

    I personally feel the two big innovations in Apocalypse were alternating activations, which can be simulated as above, and moving damage to end of turn. In the past I’ve experimented with shunting damage to end of turn in normal 40k (and as 9mm suggests), but it’s a lot of extra book-keeping, so Cheesegear’s solution of alternating activations in some or all phases should work well enough.
    Last edited by Avaris; 2022-10-16 at 04:18 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #663
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement.
    I don't see how it could.

    How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?
    ...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.


    As always, the only thing that ever slows the game down is players not knowing what to do when it's their turn to do something. Your opponent's turn is for thinking. Your turn is for doing.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-16 at 04:35 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #664
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I don't see how it could.
    Movement as a phase normally only requires the active player to do stuff: part of the reason shooting and combat benefit from alternating is that the other player still needs some input and interaction. Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it: if you alternate it it is being constantly interrupted! Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up.


    ...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.
    Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted. But as you say, speeds things up, so possibly a reasonable tradeoff!
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  5. - Top - End - #665
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it
    Normal play your opponent can quickly move their unit the instant you finish moving yours. And you can instantly start moving your units they finish moving theirs.

    The question is; Are you paying attention? Whilst your opponent is moving their 5, 10-model unit...What are you doing? Have you got your thumb up your butt or are you already making decisions in your head? There shouldn't be any delay. I guess that's something you learn when you play with chess clocks. Once you have that skill, you use it even where there aren't chess clocks.

    What is the time between your opponent taking their hand off their tenth model, and you moving your first model? If it's more than a couple of seconds, somebody is slow-playing.

    Basically; If the light turns green, how long until the car behind you honks their horn?

    Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up.
    Having played the mechanic three times...The only slow parts of the game are players. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you're already moving your first model before they've finished their entire unit. You know where the unit is, you know how far it can move, and you know how unit coherency works. Once your opponent moves the first model of the unit, there's only so much the rest of the unit can do. So as long as you aren't interfering with your opponent's movement, you can probably move your unit, too at the same time - especially if it's a single-model Character.

    Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted.
    On a 12x8' board melee units are already overcosted.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-10-16 at 06:58 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #666
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I'm planning the shop's annual public Apocalypse game. What do we think of this rule (given that I'm running it as a giant 40k game, not using the 2019 box set that they promptly stopped supporting)?



    That's the big thing, but I'd appreciate feedback on the format in general, found here.
    I've not actually played any big games in the current edition so I don't feel qualified to comment on specifics, but this seems reasonable to me?

    The Titanic Endurance rule is definitely a good call, having damage applied at the end of a turn so your big centrepiece models get at least a brief time to shine before being shot off the table was one of my favourite changes from the 2019 apocalypse (RIP). I did also really like the risk/reward mechanic of damage not being calculated (or saves not being rolled, or something, can't remember exactly) until the end of the turn, so you had to risk overkill to be sure the Hierophant was actually going down, but that's more of an ask to implement in a separate ruleset.

    You've preempted my other suggestion with the silence the big guns mission- my favourite bit of silliness in apocalypse, especially multi-table games, is actually getting to use the full range of your artillery (or hunter-killer missiles back when they had unlimited range) to target something on the other side of the room. Building it into a mission with specific artillery is probably a much better implementation as it lets everyone get in on the fun, not just the Guard player who brought five Basilisks:D
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  7. - Top - End - #667
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I mean, since the Imperial side is on offense, it's going to be five Basilisks. But the Counterbattery Fire rule is there to at least make it somewhat sporting. We have a terrain piece converted out of a dollar store pirate base toy; it's a giant skull shaped rock with a big cannon poking out one eye. I've scrawled it with Orky graffiti and wrote this datasheet for it, and the defenders will get it as part of their setup to make sure they have at least one suitable thing.
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  8. - Top - End - #668
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    My son's excited about the new Imperial Guard infantry models. He plans to turn his existing ones into a PDF force and use the newer ones for his IG army. Except for the sentinels. He bought a bunch of the old ones since he doesn't like the newer ones.

    He wants the new Rogal Dorn tank, and is again amazed at how big his Baneblade is compared to a Leman Russ...
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2022-11-15 at 02:37 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #669
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    How mad is Leman Russ that Dorn's tank is bigger?
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  10. - Top - End - #670
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Could be worse; the Ferrus Mannus tank is about the same size, except that it's had the turret removed from the top.....
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