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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    In an unrelated subject, has anyone seen any good conversions or kitbashes of Primaris Apothecaries? I have two painted up and ready to go for my new Dark Angels force (apart from the transfers, that's the last bit to do) but I need a Chief Apothecary, and I want it to be a bit more special.

    I'm thinking of taking another robed Primaris character and swapping out the backpack and left arm for an Apothecary's, so that it looks similar to the two picture but with "more robes" and I'm stuck for inspiration. The Primaris Chaplain looks about right, but I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything a bit more... impressive? The alternative is that I decapitate a broken Primaris Mephiston that I have lying around, but I'm not sure I could do it justice.
    I saw one that was the regular Primaris Apothecary but with a headswap for a Dark Angels robed head, and Fabius Bile's backpack.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    So I recently started a 40k army, my first. And I'm kind of mulling over the lore and selection of faction for it and thought I would talk to people here about it. For the record, its a Chaos Knight army. And I'm waffling between a House Herpetrax force or a House Korvax force. I like what lore I've found in the codex about the both of them, but I'm wondering if there's any particularly cool stories about Chaos Knight houses. Or how people go about making stories for their armies, if they even do.
    Off the top of my head, there aren't many stories of Chaos Knights. They're still a relatively new thing in the rules, and Knights haven't had many novels written about them in general.

    I think the best place to look would be the Horus Heresy novels, particularly Titandeath. A lot of the other books have bits and pieces from the perspective of the Chaos Knights and Titans, but that one in particular is all about the conflict and might give you some ideas.

    As for making up your own story, there are virtually no limits. Although some people might complain a little if your story contradicts a significant part of the lore - if your House got famous by stomping Roboute Guilleman to death, for example, that might be a bit out there as in the 'real' story he's still alive - BUT having said that.... Who cares what they think? You can make whatever story you like and they can't stop you, so long as you're having fun.

    Most people, I think, start with a name. They make up a name that they sounds cool, and build on it from there. Anything that happens after that is probably fair game for a story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul
    I saw one that was the regular Primaris Apothecary but with a headswap for a Dark Angels robed head, and Fabius Bile's backpack.
    I like the idea of the cowled head, I have a few of those spare so it will go well with some of my other characters. I'm not sure about Fabius' backpack, it looks a bit too 'evil' for my aesthetic, but it's a good place to start. Thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP become the source material, or not?
    Probably subjective.
    When the perceived quality of the author and material is so good that the book said material comes out of, isn't just thrown into the dumpster fire.

    So, you end up with this, in Codecies (I can't think of a novel example off the top of my head...Probably because I simply don't read the novels that I think I'm going to dislike):

    - A Scout will pick up a Rifle, Blade or Boltgun, and transition into Devastator, Assault or Tactical Squad as befits their inclination, and from there, Veteran. The predilection for certain weapons over others, explains why many Chapters have an abundance of Assault Marines or Devastators, as compared to Tactical Marines (e.g; White Scars, Blood Angels). However, since the Boltgun is the most well-rounded weapon, that is why there is mostly Tactical Marines in a "normal" Company or Chapter.

    - A Scout will transition into a Tactical Marine, and over time become Veteran, or, due to inclination, join the Assault or Devastator units, and become Veteran at one of those roles, instead. As training is front-loaded to Tactical Marines, this explains why there are far more Tactical Marines in any given Chapter, as only the experienced warriors ever really gain enough experience in battle to become fully fledged Assault Marines (Jump Pack-and-Chainsword, as opposed to Guy-With-Knife), or to gain mastery in several Heavy weapons; Hence why there simply Just Are less Devastators and Assault Marines. Most (?) Marines simply die before they get to be specialists.

    - A Scout will become a Devastator, then an Assault Marine, then a Tactical Marine. Only Tactical Marines transition to Veterans...Where...Umm...Something, something...Vanguard Veterans? How does a Veteran Sergeant that rides a Bike, work? Since Tactical Marines are the most experienced Marines out of everyone, with several centuries of combat experience...Umm...There's just lots of Tactical Marines because Chapter Organisation says there has to be.

    One of these things is bafflingly stupid, written by a not-very-good author, and forgotten. Despite all three technically being canon...One of them is simply stupid and not worth mentioning.

    An extremely well-regarded author writes a Novel, that is well written, and receives high praise. Particularly noteworthy is a subject that was brought up and is now canon. Everyone likes this.
    An author nobody knows writes a terrible Novel, that is awful, and is largely forgotten as a straight-to-pdf trash fire. It directly contradicts the well-written novel that everyone likes. Nobody likes this.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Of the top of my head, there aren't many stories of Chaos Knights. They're still a relatively new thing in the rules, and Knights haven't had many novels written about them in general.

    I think the best place to look would be the Horus Heresy novels, particularly Titandeath. A lot of the other books have bits and pieces from the perspective of the Chaos Knights and Titans, but that one in particular is all about the conflict and might give you some ideas.

    As for making up your own story, there are virtually no limits. Although some people might complain a little if your story contradicts a significant part of the lore - if your House got famous by stomping Roboute Guilleman to death, for example, that might be a bit out there as in the 'real' story he's still alive - BUT having said that.... Who cares what they think? You can make whatever story you like and they can't stop you, so long as you're having fun.

    Most people, I think, start with a name. They make up a name that they sounds cool, and build on it from there. Anything that happens after that is probably fair game for a story.
    That's what I've suspected unfortunately, information on Chaos Knights seems threadbare at the moment. Even looking up Chaos Knight Houses reveals only one or two that have information on them..the rest have a short blurb if anything. I guess I want to make sure my own story doesn't contradict existing lore plus is attached to a viable-ish army so I don't stop having fun getting rofl-stomped. Though I guess that's less of a problem if I'm doing knights, lol. In any case, I basically had two ideas.

    The first is a lance from House Herpetrax that prized the arts as key to honor and service. Its not enough to win, you had to win well. You had to have style, it had to be perfect as could be. Obviously the family has pretty deep ties to Slaanesh as their patron of the Ruinous Powers. Rather than going whole in on the sado-masochism route, wanting to channel more of the Enrapturess mini vibe and Noise Marines. Sonic weaponry that belts out bombastic orchestral melodies that destroy those who dare stand in their way. Very clean and well maintained, with the head of the lance (probably a Tyrant or the Abominant-class thats good at leading wardogs) being called Conductor or Conductrix to make it sound more Warhammer-y while the war-dogs are named after parts of a choir, segments of an orchestra, and so on. Elegant, eerie, and destructive machines that are preceded by arias from throats tearing themselves apart to make and ending their conquests with a chorus of screaming imperial citizens mixed with 'instrumentals' of buildings being shook apart precisely chosen orchestral melodies. Don't have a name in mind for this sub-house though, but the idea is one big knight (the one obviously in charge) with a pack of hunting hounds to play around them. The bondsmen don't matter, they're just instruments to be replaced, just Conductrix.

    The other is for a House Korvus off-shoot. One that when Bel'akor launched his campaign against Kolossi was part of the group of Knights that were corrupted by their Throne Mechanicums when they went to the defense of the planet. As some of the first to fall under the Dark Master's sway, they gained 'honor' in how many of their fellows they put to volkite but more importantly they became tainted by Bel'akor's power by succumbing to his direct influence and 'willingly' surrendering themselves further. Now Bel'akor's Flock have been thoroughly experimented on by the Dark Mechanicum and the Warp entities prowling Kolossi's shadow drenched service. Whatever is inside the cockpits isn't human anymore and are considered dangerous enough that they are chained inside of their knights, followed everywhere by pterrorshades and curious biomechanical creatures on foot that pick off the survivors of the Knights' rampages. Probably has more of the Abhorrent-class knights with some wardogs, but very focused on using the Dread mechanic cause it feels so flavorful and cool...I have no idea if its effective but I suppose people will tell me that. Now Bel'akor's Flock are sent to isolated worlds that don't require the full attention of House Korvus or the Dark Master, trusted to crush the populace under heel with the sheer weight of fear and literal darkness that follows them. Lately they've actually been drifting from Bel'akor's control to that of the Black Legion, but the reason why is less certain. Probably going to have each of the wardogs with a bird skull head, to convey the flock theme better but the centerpiece would probably be an Abominant because such a deranged machine so drenched in the Warp and psyker power would explain the darkness that follows the Flock in my mind but also because psyker powers seem fun.

    How's those sound? Cause from those I'm tryng to determine the actual lists, but also what colors to go for them. Very muted if its the Flock, very grungy and worn with pterrorshades and some 3D printed beasties prowling the bases, but if going the way of the Herpetrax sub-house, going very over the top in opulence. Like a brass underskeleton with tasteful verdigris, white carapaces with purple coloring, gold/brass trim, and of course some sound marine looking bits.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    The idea of a Knight House being an "orchestra" and each machine being an "instrument" is an inspired idea. Not just because it's very appropriately Slaanesh-y, but also because it... kind of works?

    The Knights' foot-treads as they walk is a drum beat, the chatter of their weapons is like a snare, they all loose their war-horns like some kind of cacophonic, demented choir.... You could go into an incredible amount of detail here, styling each Knight after a different type of orchestra section, or singer (Baritone, soprano, etc) if you wanted to. Absolutely a suitable 40k theme and mechanic.

    Colours for them would be interesting. Shlaanesh doesn't have a 'uniform' like the other Powers, which makes their individuality their 'uniform' of a sort. Bright, garish, mottled; all good Slaaneshi words.

    Or, as is popular with some players who make use of Noise Marines, you could pick a theme and run with it....

    There's a lot in the second idea that works too, especially in the idea that Knights are kind of "alive", not to mention feral. In particular, that the have to be chained down outside of battle - that's something that has been mentioned in past edition of 40k, particularly in reference to Dreadnoughts and Hellbrutes, but there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't also happen to other machines.

    As for colours, I think I agree with dark shades. It immediately put me in mind of ravens and crows - I'm not terribly familiar with the Knights' kits, but if I were to go that way I think I'd try to find a beak-like face that they could all wear over their heads, and give them the appearance of some kind of raptor or carrion bird. Or maybe a bunch of banners and flags hanging from their weapons to give the implication of feathered 'wings'.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?
    If only going by the models, there are no supplied helmets, at most a cool visor or two. I will admit I have not read enough marine books to know if Black Library has written enough about scouts to see if they ever mention helmets being worn. Technically Scouts only wear Carapace armour, or an equivalent, which, depending on how heavy their skull reinforcements are by that point, may be worse then their own heads. Though, canon wise, Flak Armour is better then any possible bulletproof vest of the modern day, able to turn most melee weapons and most human made slug thrower rounds not intended to be carried by Marines/non baseline humans, which I can believe being the general range of how tough marine heads are aiming to be. When your skull stops bullets better then a Kevlar vest, a helmet can lean to overkill. Especially if the job is observation and recon. Confining your field of view when your job is to see as much as possible before the main force arrives can preclude wearing a helmet that can infringe on your field of vision.

    But I might be talking out of my butt, and there's some pile of sources out there that lists numerous times scouts have worn helmets. But just going by what they provide for models, helmets seem optional for scouts. But if this is a question for if to put some helmets on scouts of your own, I say go for it. Personally, I would use some spare Reiver helmets or other smaller lighter helmets for scouts, or even use some Reivers as a base model for some cool custom scouts. Just cause the poster scouts run around helmet less, doesn't mean a chapter that has had troubles with scout survivability rates wouldn't go "huh, maybe if they stopped getting shot in the head we might have more of them" and then issue some helmets to the new kids.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?
    I would imagine they just wear a carapace helmet, if only for mounting visors and stuff on it.

    As for why the models are the way they are, I always just joke that everyone has Show Helmet toggled off
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?
    Rites of Battle says that Scout Armour doesn't include a helmet. It doesn't address it.

    That's always felt really stupid to me, and I've had Scouts in my army every edition until 9th when they were nerfed into the ground.

    It doesn't make sense for them to not wear helmets; I like the Scions' ones, and the hooded Skitarii helmets. I might have looked into the Necromunda models for conversion ideas...But since Scouts are garbage now I don't really see the point.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Speaking of carapace armour, Kill Team: Into the Dark has been revealed; Imperial Navy Breachers vs Kroot.

    I think this might be the first ever depiction of the Imperial Navy as miniatures, discounting ships from Battlefleet Gothic, and I have to say I like them a lot. I love how they're kind-of similar to Militarum Tempestus but the design of the... short-coat? Makes them unique. Like the crab from the Idoneth Deepkin Underworlds warband, I predict that the little Johnny-5 robot is going to be incredibly popular, if only among hobbyists rather than players.

    The Kroot are pretty good too - some nice little touches that show just enough Tau-inspired technology, but for the most part just their own stuff - but not much more to say. They look like Kroot; if you wanted a bright new take on them then you'll be disappointed, but if you wanted more of the same, just newer, then its good news for you.

    Still says a lot about Kill Team in that my only reaction to these models is "What else can i do with them apart from play Kill Team?", unfortunately.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I might get it for the terrain. Looks like a few sets of that could build a pretty decent Zone Mortalis board for heresy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I mean, the robot is neat and all, but it also looks extremely kitbashable. I'm pretty sure with some digging in my bitsbox, I could make one. Could certainly make like five with the store bitsbox.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Speaking of carapace armour, Kill Team: Into the Dark has been revealed; Imperial Navy Breachers vs Kroot.

    I think this might be the first ever depiction of the Imperial Navy as miniatures, discounting ships from Battlefleet Gothic, and I have to say I like them a lot. I love how they're kind-of similar to Militarum Tempestus but the design of the... short-coat? Makes them unique. Like the crab from the Idoneth Deepkin Underworlds warband, I predict that the little Johnny-5 robot is going to be incredibly popular, if only among hobbyists rather than players.

    The Kroot are pretty good too - some nice little touches that show just enough Tau-inspired technology, but for the most part just their own stuff - but not much more to say. They look like Kroot; if you wanted a bright new take on them then you'll be disappointed, but if you wanted more of the same, just newer, then its good news for you.

    Still says a lot about Kill Team in that my only reaction to these models is "What else can i do with them apart from play Kill Team?", unfortunately.
    The Navy Breacher Team does look like the logical extension of the rest of the armor and weapons we've seen of the Imperium. Granted its not how I've ever imagined them, but its consistent with the current design of Guardsmen and Scions, so that's fine. I also like that everything looks at least vac resistant, if not fully sealed. SO that's good.

    The Kroot look nice. Honestly never thought anything was wrong with them, but I like that they have a bit more personality to their kit now. Also that new Kroot hound looks nice.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I might get it for the terrain. Looks like a few sets of that could build a pretty decent Zone Mortalis board for heresy.
    Almost certainly less expensive for the same terrain effect.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I contrast the Navy Breachers and the Kroot against...The Space Wolves upgrade kit for 30K where the modelers didn't even try. I...Like (?)...That the 30K community is not very tolerant of garbage. Then again I'm also very aware that Space Wolves have been getting shafted ever since Thunderwolf Cavalry were invented. Prospero Burns knocked it out of the park; "All of that? ...That's stupid. Stop it." and now we're back to wolf-headed helmets that make no sense - at least wolf skull helmets have the decency to be curved.

    Speaking of garbage; I'm very excited to see the awful justification for why that Kroot's Harpoon Gun (?) has a bowstave.

    ION:

    This came up in the D&D threads, and I thought if anyone knows, this thread probably should, and I'm annoyed at myself why I didn't ask here, first;

    How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I contrast the Navy Breachers and the Kroot against...The Space Wolves upgrade kit for 30K where the modelers didn't even try.
    IMO the helmet, being pointy (but with a muzzle rather than a beak) looks more Corvus-ish, than many of the other Chapter Specific Mk VI Helmets do (Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, Dark Angels).

    None of them looked much like the basic Mark VI helm - they looked more like the older helms - Mark II, III, or IV.

    The Imperial Fists and Dark Angels ones are most evocative of the Mark III helm carried by the classic Master of the Arsenal.

    The Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors ones seem to me to be most evocative of the Mark II and the Mark IV - very "flat-faced"
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear;25540706;
    How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?
    The Really Useful Box method - magnets in the base, sheet of ferromagnetic material glued to the bottom of a large plastic box, and then carry the box around. Works fine so long as you don't wallop the box so hard the magnets break - I've got all my Soulblight monsters set up like this and can flip the box upside down happily enough without anything falling off. If you have a car it'd be even better, but I'm now much happier carrying them on the tube, and its more efficient storage than the massive foam cases they'd need otherwise.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

    I've traditionally put my big models, Bloodthirsters, Knights, Magnus and so on, in a box (about shoebox size, sometimes an actual shoebox) with bubblewrap, and fit other smaller models, terminators and other things that couldn't fit into my small infantry case, into the space around them with more bubblewrap padding. Never had any real problems with the method, though packing/unpacking things to set up or at the end of a game was a bit of a pain. Saved on space compared to the foam trays used by the guys at my local, which was important because I needed to rely on public transport to get to and from games a lot of the time.

    IIRC I was able to fit two knights to a box pretty easily, and I could fit one of those boxes in a backpack (a good backpack mind you) with my rulebooks. More detailed models like bloodthirsters and Magnus were generally one to a box, but would still have things like terminators packed around them.


    For D&D minis, I think it is going to be a matter of finding a box of roughly the right dimensions and just bubblewrapping the big ones to keep them safe. I'm not sure of the exact size of the larger minis made for D&D, but I've got a D&D dragon that takes up about the same amount of space as a bloodthirster (same width, longer but less tall,) and it fits into a modestly sized box just fine. Bonus for the surprise note in the D&D thread is that a couple of layers of bubblewrap makes something borderline unrecognisable even in a clear box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    This came up in the D&D threads, and I thought if anyone knows, this thread probably should, and I'm annoyed at myself why I didn't ask here, first;

    How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?
    I put them in a tray that I carry on top of my box.
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    Several of my biggest models are at the store on a shelf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?
    I'm very invested into the Battlefoam system at this point. My 40k stuff is in pluck foam while AoS is on Magna racks. I transport ALL of my knights in a 1560, though my system is probably overkill for most people.
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    Battlefoam. I have a PACK Max for my Baneblades; carries all six of them with room to spare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    IMO the helmet, being pointy (but with a muzzle rather than a beak) looks more Corvus-ish, than many of the other Chapter Specific Mk VI Helmets do (Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, Dark Angels).

    None of them looked much like the basic Mark VI helm - they looked more like the older helms - Mark II, III, or IV.

    The Imperial Fists and Dark Angels ones are most evocative of the Mark III helm carried by the classic Master of the Arsenal.

    The Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors ones seem to me to be most evocative of the Mark II and the Mark IV - very "flat-faced"
    The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that they’re basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 ‘leader’ one. Having a wolf helm as one of 4 options would have been good, but being the only option feels bad, particularly as some SW players don’t like that aesthetic (even though it has been around since Space Wolves were first a thing in 40k). (Edit: I think? I’m sure I remember a 2nd ed SW with wolf helmet that wasn’t Ulrik, but can’t find it atm)

    Edit 2: ah, here we go. Space Wolf Captain from the late 80s/early 90s. Literally one of the first Space Wolf models ever made had a Wolf Helm like this! http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a...manders-01.htm
    Last edited by Avaris; 2022-08-07 at 01:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    (Edit: I think? I’m sure I remember a 2nd ed SW with wolf helmet that wasn’t Ulrik, but can’t find it atm)
    It was around all the way back in 1e:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that they’re basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 ‘leader’ one.

    I'd agree that the style variation in "ordinary Wolf" helmets is pretty low (2 variants instead of 3). That of the White Scars is in some ways even worse though:

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...upgrade-packs/

    if you take into account the parts of the differences that are paintjob, the only physical differences within the 9 "ordinary White Scar" helmets are in the topknot - and the topknots on the far left and far right are near-identical, with only the subtlest difference in the point where the topknot joins the helmet.

    Imperial Fists aren't much better - the "helmet air-holes" are placed differently, but the rest of the helmet is completely identical for the 9 "ordinary" guys.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...and-pauldrons/
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-08-07 at 01:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    The Really Useful Box method - magnets in the base, sheet of ferromagnetic material glued to the bottom of a large plastic box, and then carry the box around.
    Today I went the other way. I use my magnets for...Important stuff.

    Instead, I went down to my local dollar-crafts store and they were selling magnetic sheets for dirt cheap. Picked up a couple of those and put paperclips on the bases of my models. Then I can cover the paperclips with texture paint and it wont look any different to normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that they’re basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 ‘leader’ one. Having a wolf helm as one of 4 options would have been good
    The Space Wolf Grey Hunters kit nails it when it comes to helmets. Most of the bare heads look alright. The helmets are helmets, and there's only one wolf-helm that looks stupid that nobody uses. I remember back in the day people would use that wolf helm to denote that that model was the one with the Mark of the Wulfen. But now that I - and my friends - are all older and better at hobby, there are so many better ways to depict the Mark if you really wanted to (because it's not a thing anymore).
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It was around all the way back in 1e:

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    I'd agree that the style variation in "ordinary Wolf" helmets is pretty low (2 variants instead of 3). That of the White Scars is in some ways even worse though:

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...upgrade-packs/

    if you take into account the parts of the differences that are paintjob, the only physical differences within the 9 "ordinary White Scar" helmets are in the topknot - and the topknots on the far left and far right are near-identical, with only the subtlest difference in the point where the topknot joins the helmet.

    Imperial Fists aren't much better - the "helmet air-holes" are placed differently, but the rest of the helmet is completely identical for the 9 "ordinary" guys.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...and-pauldrons/
    True!

    I suppose the idea is to scatter these helmets around an army, rather than have a squad entirely with special helmets, which would make the similarities matter less. Stick the ‘sergeant’ helm on a praetor. But wolf helms on random dudes stands out more!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    True!

    I suppose the idea is to scatter these helmets around an army, rather than have a squad entirely with special helmets, which would make the similarities matter less.
    I'd agree that the helmets are detailed enough and different enough from the basic ones, that they'd make better "squad leader" helmets (or "veteran squad" helmets) than having the whole army have them.

    Same applies to the Imperial Fists ones. Laurel wreath and "knight-style helmet with airholes" - that's the sort of thing you'd see on an Emperor's Champion, not on a regular guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Stick the ‘sergeant’ helm on a praetor.
    The Imperial Fists article did say that the transverse crest helmet is for Sergeants or Praetors - same would apply to the wolf helmet with topknot.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-08-07 at 01:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    if you take into account the parts of the differences that are paintjob, the only physical differences within the 9 "ordinary White Scar" helmets are in the topknot - and the topknots on the far left and far right are near-identical, with only the subtlest difference in the point where the topknot joins the helmet.

    Imperial Fists aren't much better - the "helmet air-holes" are placed differently, but the rest of the helmet is completely identical for the 9 "ordinary" guys.
    The issue isn't that there isn't enough variety in the Space Wolf helmets.

    The issue is that they're bad.

    Neither the White Scars nor the Imperial Fists have 'variety', but that doesn't matter because they look good (or at the very least, fine). Even if I don't agree that Imperial Fists walk around with Dark Angel-like helmets-with-wreaths-on, I'm still more than happy to put a 'Champion' helmet on a Sergeant, even if the one with the crest, is the only one 'designed' for it.

    The Wolf helmets? Not only are they not the Space Wolves' aesthetic - especially since Space Wolf players swear by Prospero Burns - they don't even work well for Sergeants or individual characters. They are the joke answer you give, when someone asks you to design a helmet for Space Wolves.

    What helmet works well with Space Wolves?

    'A wolf helmet.'

    Hahahahahaha. Can you imagine? No seriously. We haven't done dumb **** like that since 5th Ed. Remember when we turned Space Wolves into a literal joke? Let's not do that again. Especially not with 30K players - they'll destroy us.

    'Maybe like a half-helmet. Like the leather ones that already exist on the Grey Slayers. You could have like a helmet that protects their brain case, but you would leave their mouths and nose open, because Space Wolves' actually believe that their own senses are better that computer sensors. Also, if we leave their chins bare we can do beards.'

    ...Hahahahaha. Sculpting beards sounds like a lot of work. Go back to the wolf helmet and let's **** this out in a weekend.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2022-08-07 at 02:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    The Wolf helmets? Not only are they not the Space Wolves' aesthetic - especially since Space Wolf players swear by Prospero Burns - they don't even work well for Sergeants or individual characters.
    Some people like Prospero Burns.

    Others think that this was Abnett being pretentious and that "They're not "The Space Wolves", they're "The Rout" really" is silly.

    It would appear that the writers of HH7: Inferno, fell into the second category.

    Page 71:

    But of all the accusations, perhaps the most cutting was that the VIth Legion was never keener to the fight as when an enemy had already broke and fled before it - than when its victims were helpless.

    With this came an informal and insulting cognomen for the VIth Legion of the "Rout", a collective noun often used for carrion jackals and the mutated pariah dogs of Terra's dry seas that hounded and preyed upon refugee columns and wastelanders - creatures brave only when their victims were half-dead or exhausted.



    page 79:

    Before any acrimony could fester, Leman Russ in his wisdom determined to take his Legion into battle so that he, his kinsman and his gene-sons would spill blood and face death together ands be forged anew as one, or in his words;

    "... as the strands of iron are twisted and hammered together in the forging of a killing blade, so shall we be. I and my oath-sworn have been until now the Wolves of Fenris, and you, cousins of my blood, the Wolves of Terra. Together we shall become the Wolves that Stalk the Stars, and the beasts that crawl and feed in the darkness of the void shall come to fear us, and know themselves hunted."



    page 83:

    It is the case that many of the Space Wolves' victories of the latter years of the Great Crusade, even those that were not sealed under order of high authority - were neither widely lauded nor eulogised by the remembrancers and iterators of the Imperium with which the Legion had little truck. Indeed, in scorn of such men, they freely lied and mocked, and played the barbarian as expected. For where the Wolves stalked, they often stalked alone. For their true histories were theirs alone, preserved in webs of saga and myth where the facts and direct memories had been purged from their minds by psycho-memetic obliteration to preserve the sanity of the warrior from the things they had seen and done, and remove from them knowledge that they were not meant to have.

    Seems to me like an active effort to retcon Prospero Burns - suggest that everything being told to Kaspar Hawser about "The Rout" is mockery, and that they go by "The Wolves that Stalk The Stars" (or "Space Wolves" for short).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-08-07 at 02:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Some people like Prospero Burns.
    The thing about Prospero Burns is that it tries to make clear that the Space Wolves don't have a wolf fetish. Trying to distance the Space Wolves from the 'Wolf Wolfborn' meme, and how many Wolf Points your Space Wolves army has.
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