Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Wraith]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?

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The best and most obvious way to start is either the Elite- or Command Editions of the starter set. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Necrons army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Necrons, you will almost definitely want to look into Combat Patrol boxes - with a few exceptions.

*Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Chapters that all play very differently, some of the models will not be suited to the Chapter of Space Marines that you might want to play. Be wary. When buying the starter sets, they really lend themselves towards playing:

- White Scars
- Space Wolves
- Black Templars
- Blood Angels / Flesh Tearers

And are non-specifically 'just okay' when playing with:

- Iron Hands
- Salamanders
- Raven Guard
- Deathwatch

Generally, you'll want to outright avoid buying the starter sets if you play:

- Dark Angels
- Imperial- or Crimson Fists
- Ultramarines (yes really)

However, just having models, isn't really enough to play the game. The Core Rules are free and/or downloadable. But the 'main game' is found outside the Core Rules, which means that you're likely going to need to pick up a Rulebook at some point. Unfortunately, only the Command Edition starter comes stock with a Rulebook. So, if you don't end up getting the Command Edition, you'll probably want to spend even more money grabbing a Rulebook, too.

Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. The Command Edition comes with some not-very-good terrain - but at least it's a start to making your board not just a flat surface.

Additional Resources that you will want:
Battlescribe. Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

[Faction] Datacards. If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems and Psychic Powers. However, do be aware that it's really simple to just make your own, as well as print out cards with reminders for all your Characters' abilities that you might forget.

Open War Mission Pack. Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules.
While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

Spin-down Dice. What? Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as Wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different colours, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s and not quite what you want.

...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?

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Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

Power Rating. Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear it has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined.

Points.; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies, Chapter Approveds (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. You're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.

So, what's a good start then?

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Stater Editions
[INDENT]- Recruit Edition.
- Elite/Command Edition.

[COLOR="#B22222"]Start Collecting!s and Combat Patrols
To be updated.

SC! - Astra Militarum. Not good.
SC! - Militarum Tempestus. Good.
SC! - Adeptus Mechanicus. Fine.
CP - Blood Angels. Good. Even for non-Blood Angels.
CP - Deathwatch. Decent...But not for Deathwatch.
CP - Space Wolves. Decent...Even for non Space Wolves.
SC! - Space Marines. Very bad.
SC! - Vanguard Space Marines. Decent.

SC! - Chaos Space Marines. Decent.
SC! - Daemons of Khorne. Fine.
SC! - Daemons of Nurgle. Good.
SC! - Daemons of Slaanesh. Good.
SC! - Daemons of Tzeentch. Fine.
SC! - Thousand Sons. Good.

SC! - Craftworlds. Bad.
SC! - Drukharii. Not good.
SC! - Genestealer Cults. Fine.
SC! - Orks. Fine.
SC! - T'au Empire. Good...For T'au.
SC! - Tyranids. Good.

Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.

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Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.

Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain with the Obscuring and Dense terrain rules (in the Core Rulebook). It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you, and it gets very expensive. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

I've heard about Crusade. What's that about?

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Crusade is a way of 'gamifying' how you build and progress your army, as you play more and more games. This keeps you invested in the idea of playing games, and staying in the hobby. The idea that you have or will develop a personal stake in your army and your collection, will make it less likely for you to abandon the hobby, as opposed to playing a few games and then quitting once you get bored and/or lose your first few games and realise that the game/hobby isn't for you.

Pros. You develop a personal attachment to your army, as the Crusade format uses RPG-like mechanics to drive the impression that you are collecting and building your army.

Cons. There are strict zero-sum rules in how you can build your collection. Sometimes this might feel like you have no control over what you buy, because you'll only be allowed to use what the format lets you use.

This is so expensive!

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...It is. You'll be wanting to make sure that you get a lot of games and get the most out of your hobby that you possibly can. Sorry. There's just no way around it.

Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?

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Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.

Build to my meta?

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What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
...But, of course, they might, too.

So what am I here for?

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Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.

So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?

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That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.

So, are some Factions are better overall than others?

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Again, the answer is 'maybe', or 'kind of' or 'it depends'. Any Faction can win games, provided that the player takes the right units, in the right combination, and then makes the right choices during the game. No matter who your opponents are, the rules and win conditions of the game, are still the same. Any given unit is be more- or less-suited to winning games than any other unit. Which means there are definitely some sub-optimal and outright wrong choices you can make, when making your army.

Factions aren't bad. Units are bad. Many bad units in combination, make a bad army. But that doesn't mean the Faction is bad, necessarily. It just means that in any given Codex or Supplement, the Faction might have less 'good units' in it, than another Faction, which means that in order to win games - or sometimes even play games to a reasonable standard - your army must include a number of specific options and choices.

The more 'must-have' and 'auto-include' units your Faction has, the worse it is, as you - the player - are given less choices and less agency in what goes into your army. If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

I can't paint.

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Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).

Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

Helpful Army Building Guides

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Guides to Space Marines (Adeptus Astartes):
Detachment and Army Abilities - Core Units and Characters - Non-Core Units

- Ultramarines - Rapid Fire and Assault weapons
- White Scars - Melee and Assault weapons, favours Bikes, but not really.
- Iron Hands - Heavy weapons, favours Vehicles, but not really.
- Deathwatch - Anything you want
- Blood Angels - Melee weapons, favours Jump Packs.

Crusade Guides

- The 'basics' of building your Roster
- Playing a Mission
- Guide to Adeptus Astartes

All of the following use 8th Ed. books, but are currently out of date.
Adeptus Custodes Out of date
Adeptus Mechanicus Out of date
Astra Militarum by LeSwordfish Out of date
Chaos Space Marines by LeSwordfish Out of date
Craftworlds by Forum Explorer Out of date
Dark Angels Out of date
Death Guard by LeSwordfish Out of date
Drukhari by Gauntlet Out of date
Grey Knights Out of date
Necrons by Requizen Out of date
Thousand Sons by Wraith Out of date

Index: Inquisition (White Dwarf, Nov '19) Out of date
Index: Officio Assassinorum (White Dwarf, Mar '19) Out of date
Index: Sisters of Silence (White Dwarf, Oct '19) Out of date

Previous conversations to search through...

Previous Threads

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
* XXX: Imperium After Dark
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up
* XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering
* XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It
* XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
* XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns
* XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread
* XL: Bloated Rules
* XLI: Secondary Opinions
* Thread XLII: The Dice Makes Fools of Us All

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

PLEASE NOTE: Blue Text (for sarcasm) is typically not in play in this thread, because pretty much all of it is sarcasm and/or petty whining about toy soldiers. It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter.

Last time on 40k-in-the-Playground

• Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.
• Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business - Maybe we did take that "Aeldari players are heartless monsters" joke a little bit too far....
• Codex Tyranids (9th) has just been announced. The FO chart has a much-needed update, a fan-favourite character makes its table-top debut, and even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.

We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.

[LeSwordfish]

I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).

[Cheesegear]

It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter.

Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?

Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.

Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.

Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business

One time I was freaking the **** out. Something like 12 posts in the space of a few hours after being triggered by...Somebody. If I'm getting the date right it was probably towards 6th Ed. Somebody else told me that instead of freaking out over the internet, I should maybe talk to my partner and go out for dinner, and have...Relationships. Toy soldiers are not, in fact, serious business, and the internet is not real life. How 'bout instead of being mad...Just don't?

This forum taught me that. 40K-in-the-Playground. Learning life lessons through toy soldiers.

even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.

I lol'd.

---

I brought it up at the end of the last thread, making a point to remember to bring it up again...

We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.

...Which is what, exactly?

Commenting on WarCom articles is fine...Up to a point. Sometimes they spend 400 words saying nothing at all (and that's coming from me), and other times they're blatantly shilling because it's literally what it's for, and other times the only thing that can be said about some rules leak intentional advertisement, is that 'We can't comment in good faith until we know more - usually the points cost.' So I don't really like reading WarCom and I'll just address whatever happens, when it actually happens...And I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit too bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)

I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...And no I'm not responsible enough to remember to go back and edit stuff that changes. So yeah. I'm happy to give out army building advice...But really, with the price hike and the pandemic it just doesn't look like people are even building that many armies anymore - probably because they're not playing games. Perhaps more accurately, anyone who's still in the hobby at this point already knows what they want before they buy it and they don't need my help.

Writing battle reports, on my end, just feels boring. Tactics in 40K...Tend to be...Fixed. You build your army around Secondary Objectives, and you take the same Secondaries every single game - maybe you switch one out, but it's the for the same one you always sub out for. You can pick your Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers, so there's no randomness there, and due to how...Simplified...The game is now (if you're still playing, of course), the tactics aren't particularly brilliant; Use small arms fire to shoot small things. Use Heavy weapons to shoot big things. I've been playing 9th Ed. for a while now (my region had one lockdown that actually only lasted the promised two weeks); And I don't know what it is. Do I know too much about the game? Have I been playing for so long now that rolling triple-1s on my 2+ Armour Save, whilst rare, has statistically happened often enough that those unexpected/surprising moments are now...Boring?

Baby-Cheesegear, circa 5th Ed.; *Looks directly into the camera, makes a shocked face for the YouTube thumbnail. Freaks out puts hands in the air. Acquire Twitch Subs for 'genuine reaction.'*

Grognard-Cheesegear, circa now; {Monotone} Yep. Sure looks like Guilliman just died. That'll happen. 400-odd Points down the drain. What does 'react harder' even mean? Am I supposed to care? Doesn't this happen all the time?

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

[LeSwordfish]

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

A serious question: are you enjoying 40k, or are you enjoying, like, competitive sociability? How does time spent playing 40k, for you, compare to the same sort of game of Crisis Protocol or Kill Team or whatever else it is you play?

[Wraith]

Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?

Absolutely not. Subtlety is for cowards.

Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20.

But I don't like it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.

...Which is what, exactly?

If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you.

I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit too bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)

I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

Playing games and writing about games are different parts of the hobby, and you're not required to enjoy all of them - playing/writing is the same as collecting/painting and painting/playing. Similarly, no one is required to stick with any one thing indefinitely. The GitP guides are fun and I enjoy reading them, even for factions that I know I have no interest in playing with and will never play against, because I know that the people who were (hopefully) writing them are doing so out of enthusiasm.

I, for example, like writing about 40k. That's why I'm such a pain in the butt in the 40k Lore thread, whenever we have one, even though I haven't read the last ~10 Horus Heresy novels and I'm out of the loop. I'm quite happy to write a guide when the mood strikes me and I don't mind so much when a new edition comes out and my 'hard work' is lost; I'm just typing a post on a forum, after all, not carving my philosophy into granite slabs for perpetuity.

I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change, I get to write another one. Yay for me! I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.

[Cheesegear]

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years...

Their stock began to tank just before Christmas - and by 'tank', I mean, 'revert back to ~pre-2020.'

The pandemic, arguably, was the best thing that happened to GW in a long, long time. It's only after the pandemic is [not-officially over], that GW has begun to see...Bad Not-as-good times, as people start going back to work and hanging out with their friends on a regular basis.

Also, something, something; Emergent technology that makes your core manufacturing business obsolete.

"Because we're a***holes and we hate you"

Again, considering how GW was lauding their own massive stock inflation during 2020-21, I can't help but feel that the free market is more-or-less self-correcting. Whether or not the free market is actually 'free' (especially in the US, where I am not...), well, that's a conversation that has nothing to do with toy soldiers, so let's not worry about it.

If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you.

This is one of those things. It reads like it should be written in blue text. But also how is it sarcasm when it's factually true?

I, for example, like writing about 40k.

Me too... That might be why I do it.

I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change

See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than three, in some cases.

I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.

What?
1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - especially when they're addressing you.
5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
???
7. Profit.

Another life lesson in a thread about toy soldiers.
(Again, is the above sarcasm, or something that is absurd, but also factually true? ...We'll never know.)

[Dragonus45]

I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).

Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.

[Cheesegear]

Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

[Requizen]

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds.

This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.

[Forum Explorer]

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20.

But I don't like it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.

The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

AP 2/3 weapons. Multi damage is good, but not, actually, necessary. Honestly, weight of shots is more important. Really, with their ability to shrug mortal wounds, AP 2/3 basically is mortal wounds against Custodes. Then the ability to inflict Fight Last, minus damage, and good vehicles work out well. Though Mortal Wounds does become viable if you aren't up against Emperor's Champs. But that's the best faction for Custodes into everyone but Custodes, so I just kinda assume most Custodes are running Emperor's Champs.

Admittedly, Space Marines probably struggle the most with this. I think running triple Dreadnaughts (I think Venerables with Twin Lascannon is the best of your options, but maybe an Ironclad for counter charge? And the Heavy Plasma cannon is free...), and maybe it's worth taking a look at Grav-cannons again? Only S5 makes me think it's a bad pick, but you can put them in drop pods for a guaranteed turn of shooting.

Regardless, you want things that can fight in melee, but still have decent to good shooting, hit well naturally since you can't depend on rerolls, and good AP/damage. So Venerable Dreadnaughts. But Space Marine troops are aggressively overcosted, and are actually pretty terrible these days. 2 Wounds means a lot less now that damage 2 is everywhere, and the AP 1 that Space Marines have to pay for (by taking Intercessors) is free in pretty much every other army barring Sisters.

Which actually raises a question, what's better?

5 Intercessors
or
5 Tactical Marines with a Heavy Bolter/Grav-cannon

They are the same points, but for something I'd want just sitting back and holding objectives I think the heavy weapon might actually be better. It certainly is better against Custodes.

Still being forced to drop ~300 points into what I think you can honestly call the worst troop choice in 9th edition is a pretty harsh tax.


On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?

[LeSwordfish]

I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.

[Forum Explorer]

I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.

Funny enough, Tau is actually one of Custodes worst match ups, since while Tau might not have mortal wounds, they do have an absolute ton of AP-3 shots at high Strength and Damage 3 or greater.

[Hootman]

See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than three, in some cases.

The Ork guide I tried to write became obsolete as I was writing it, which was really disheartening. At some point in my revisions, I just ran of out gas, and couldn't work up the energy to continue.

On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?

Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

[Blackhawk748]

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"

And I would be too considering where AoS went and how GW tends to balance things. Will they? I don't know, maybe they'll just do Ad Mech 2.0 and we'll have some stupidly efficient gun blobs again.

This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.

RPS balancing works when every faction has a Rock, a Scissors and a Paper component to the army, even if they skew more heavily in one direction. That way you can at least adjust, in theory, in list building to properly compensate. Does it always work? No, and GW is very, very bad at it.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?

[Brookshw]

T

What?
1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - especially when they're addressing you.
5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
???
7. Profit.

Another life lesson in a thread about toy soldiers.
(Again, is the above sarcasm, or something that is absurd, but also factually true? ...We'll never know.)

Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.

[Cheesegear]

The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"

AdMech is actually a great example of Guides being totally useless.

GW released AdMech. It was crazy good. Like, actually too good. Nerfed in less than a month of release - I think they might've even been nerfed twice.

Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.

...And that 10th time, nothing you do is going to matter.

[Hootman]

We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?

Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

[Forum Explorer]

Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me.

Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

They should still have their 4+ save.

[hamishspence]

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

One of the things I like about 9e Space Marine codex and supplements system is that it dropped a lot of the "restrict certain units" limitations. Now, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, can take Ironclads, when they couldn't before.

Some units, like the Librarian Dreadnought, are still restricted (Librarian Dread is still Blood Angels & Their Successors only)

[Cheesegear]

I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me.

As usual, the problem isn't necessarily the model itself. The problem is the internal balance of the Codex being all kinds of wonky, that even the good things, don't get a look at, because other things are Just Better at the same job.

You're an Aeldari player. You know as well as I do that the Avatar, for the last several editions, has never actually been bad. There's nothing wrong with it.

Statement 1. It synergises with Guardian blobs, it has Ignore Wounds (5+), and you can re-roll Charges which also synergises with a few Aspect Warrior units, as well. And, yes, an Avatar can stomp it's way up the board because it only has 8 Wounds so it can't even be targeted. The Avatar of Khaine is quite good.

Statement 2. The Avatar is 'Not a Farseer', the Avatar can't ride in a Transport with Aspect Warriors. The Avatar doesn't have Path of Command. The Avatar is in fact, actual garbage.

Both are true. But Statement 2 is more true.

The Librarian Dread is in the same boat as the Avatar. There's nothing actually overtly wrong with it. It does what it's supposed to do. The problem is why would you take a Librarian Dread when you can take...Anything else.

[Blackhawk748]

Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

I may be misremembering, I haven't looked in the book in a long while, I just remember them taking it away in 7th, the Edition we really needed that 4+

[Wraith]

The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?

And the answer to that question is another question: "Do you want to play 40k or AoS, or not?". Not "a game very much like 40k or AoS", but "just 40k or AoS"?

I can probably guess what your response to that is going to be. I'm just as sure you already know mine. That's fine. GW isn't interested in us. They're only interested in people whose answer is "OH GOD PLEASE YES" and no one else.

Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*

[Blackhawk748]

Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.

[Dragonus45]

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.

Para Bellum does the same. The models could use some work but it's hard to argue with the costs, and they give away a ton of stuff too to help get the game going. Like half my 100k army was free. And they are officially super lax about proxies. I have D&D models on bases for a few things.

[Cheesegear]

The only thing you can't do [with 3rd party models] is participate in GW tournaments.

Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.

[Blackhawk748]

Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.

Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.

[Cheesegear]

Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.

Give the customer:
- What they want,
- When they want,
- At a price that they can afford.

If you can't do one of those things (for whatever reason), you're going to get cheap knock-offs in the market at best, and outright piracy at worst.

We saw this back during the inception of Netflix. People paid <$10 or whatever, and got whatever they wanted. Piracy went down - globally.

Now? In 202x, we see companies take their stuff off of Netflix, and create their own streaming service. Everyone wants a piece of that pie.
But the consumers can't bear that.
So instead, they start picking and choosing which streaming services they can afford that give them what they want.
Then, because of the fracturing of the market, everyone raises their prices in order to gouge the piece of the market they do have.

Piracy goes back up, because of the streaming wars.
'No, but...Streaming makes piracy go down...' Yeah...When you gave the customer everything they wanted at a price when they could afford it. When you don't give the customer what they want, and a price that they also can't afford...You've lost the game.

This is what happened.
I don't know anyone who was saying that 8th Ed. was broken. There were very minor problems, specifically regarding high-model-count armies. But that was the only problem in the game, and ITC did find a solution to that problem. Nobody wanted 8th Ed. to change.

GW removed the game that people wanted, and replaced it with 9th Ed., then did a price hike. Two of the three things you absolutely should not do if you're worried about piracy. Then of course, shipping across the world took a severe nose dive for obvious reasons - the Suez Canal was even blocked for an entire week. Which means that people couldn't even get the product when they wanted it; You go the store, you pay them money, they give you product...Nope. Turns out they can't even give you the product. That's the third nail.

[Requizen]

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now. GW has often had lows where people didn't like editions or metagames, but they never really seemed to happen at a time where a game choices were this booming. I do think we're in an era where if GW drops the ball too hard, there's a lot of new places for players to scatter. And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff.

The Warhammer community (the real one, not the website) has historically been self-sustaining. People played Warhammer because other people played Warhammer, why would you play games that people weren't playing? Put the effort in to build a community around a new game? Icky, what a hassle. But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion really pushed their starters), and other games have just embraced the mini-agnostic lifestyle, so that cycle of Warhammer propping itself up on an existing playerbase... might not be as strong as it once was. Especially after a 2 year pandemic forcing people to slow down, re-evaluate their purchases, and maybe branch out while they're momentarily broken out of their regular Warhammer routine.

Personally, I'm not looking to invest too heavily into any new systems yet, as I think there's a very strong likelyhood that Games Workshop and Warhammer in general does just keep trundling through, and MCP stutters and slows like most third party games have before it. But I'm definitely trying new things, as I said, and keeping my eye on the pulse.

That said, I do still play a lot of the GW specialist games, since they haven't managed to ruin Blood Bowl yet, Warcry is still fun, and the new Kill Team is actually a very solid Skirmish game (partially flubbed by GW pricing structure around rules and new releases). I just have no interest in either bigHammer game.

[Artanis]

And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff.

I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.

[Cheesegear]

This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now.
[...]
But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion...

One thing that's massively important to MCP and Legions that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.

Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
What's that?
Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...

Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
What's that?
Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.