Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[hamishspence]

The way the shield curves in and out makes it look very different from the Deathwing shields. I'm guessing it's a relic - the Emperor's personal shield just as Guilliman gets the Emperor's personal sword.

[Cheesegear]

One Page Rules is the new hotness that all the cool kids are talking about right now......

I am interested to see how GW responds.

...I think we kind of got an answer.

[Wraith]

The ONLY thing that I don't like about the new Lion is the bare head option.

On the one hand it looks like Charles Dance which is awesome, BUT that guy is pushing 80 years old which makes the Lion look very, very different to Guilleman and the other supposedly-ageless Astartes. There might be lore to explain that, but on first impression, it's kind of odd.

The other is that he seems to have short hair. He's called the LION, why doesn't he have a MANE like his portrait?

On the whole though, two very minor gripes for an option that I won't even use. I'll be grabbing one almost immediately (literally - I can see WHW from where I'm currently sitting )

[Fergie0044]

...I think we kind of got an answer.

Can't wait, I may actually play a game of 40k this year after all. We already know from 8th how long this free rules and zero bloat will last, but might as well enjoy it while we can.

[Drasius]

Army selection is equally straightforward: pick a faction, a warlord, and the units you like (just no more than three of any one type*), and stay within your points limit. That’s it!

You no longer have to fit your army into a force organisation chart, or compromise on the army you really want. It’s a simple and liberating system, and opens the door to all kinds of fun, thematic or unusual armies.

I suppose that's one way to retire firstborn without actually banning them.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

I suppose that's one way to retire firstborn without actually banning them.

Does that really change firstborn anyways? Since Arks of Omen there's no troop tax, so the only limitation was taking 3 of any category you wished, which frankly most lists are going to do anyways with their best units.

[thethird]

I suppose that's one way to retire firstborn without actually banning them.

To be fair the new terminators are taller than the primaris. So firstborn might get new primaris sized models down the line (as it should have happened). Or... Stop having models altogether and have primaris marines also represent firstborn.

[Blackhawk748]

...I think we kind of got an answer.

Only took them nearly a decade.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, 10th edition rules breakdown as we know it right now, from my contemporaneous notes while watching the Adepticon stream:

Psychic phase is gone. We're back to pre-6th edition style psychic powers on the datasheet that say when they're used.

Morale phase is gone. Morale is handled in the Command phase and no longer inflicts casualties, instead penalizing units that fail with something called "battleshock." This apparently messes with ability to hold objectives, among other things.

Subfactions are being siloed, so you can't layer multiple rules sources. Specific example; Ultramarines First Company has different rules than other Ultramarines, and don't benefit from the base chapter rules/stratagems/etc. Objective is to have all faction rules be on a single two page spread.

Command points will be cut even more than they are now, but with fewer stratagems this may not be a huge issue.

Datasheets: Toughness stays. WS/BS and Strength are moved to the individual weapon profiles (so instead of a Marine's power fist being x2 Strength and -1 to hit, it's just WS4 and S8, for example). New stat: Objective Control, abbreviated OC, per model. The side with the highest OC total within range of an objective holds the objective. Termagants have OC2, implied that Knights, etc could have much higher numbers. Unit abilities are now abilities on the datasheet rather than unit-specific stratagems, again making a drastic Command Point reduction not as big of a deal.

Lethality is being reduced across the game. AP is becoming more rare and also lower, while Toughness values on big things are going up while the Strength of weapons generally won't. If your army stands out in the open you can still expect it to get shot to death, but hopefully this will successfully pivot the game away from the turn one alpha strike as the premiere strategy. Cover rules will also change, though they didn't specify how.

Listbuilding changes massively. There is no more Force Organization Chart. Instead, you can take whatever you want, but no more than three of each datasheet (with the exception of Battleline - not Troops - units, which can have six). Potential to change which units gain Battleline with subfaction rules (i.e. Deathwing)?

[Cheesegear]

Command points will be cut even more than they are now, but with fewer stratagems this may not be a huge issue.

Stratagems and CPs were a good idea in concept. But then they just got massively bloated until people hated them.
I still think 8th Ed. did it right.

Lethality is being reduced across the game. AP is becoming more rare and also lower, while Toughness values on big things are going up while the Strength of weapons generally won't.

Either
a) The game gets massively slower, or, more likely
b) The game comes down in scale.

If your army stands out in the open you can still expect it to get shot to death, but hopefully this will successfully pivot the game away from the turn one alpha strike as the premiere strategy.

And do what? Pivot it to pre-7th Ed. rocket tag?
That's a nice gunline. I too, have a gunline. Neither of us will move out of our respective DZ until Turn 3, minimum.

Listbuilding changes massively. There is no more Force Organization Chart.

The way I understand it, it will change to the way AoS does it - or something close to it:
Uniques, Leaders, Battleline and Restricted units.

[Renegade Paladin]

Having been on the receiving end of Iron Hands AP-5 everything, I'm all in favor of AP coming down a few notches.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm very keen on the idea of having cards with the rules on, i find those an absolute godsend for AOS.

[Saambell]

I'm very keen on the idea of having cards with the rules on, i find those an absolute godsend for AOS.

I know I would love to buy a deck of cards with super easy rule reference for each unit rather than a whole book with repeated page flips for every rule I needed to check. Especially as I can just place the card on the table next to the unit in question for easy access for both players, no gotchas. The rules are right there, out in the open. I know I was writing fake cards for a lot of my armies on cue cards, but my writing sucks and it was quite time consuming. This just seems the natural next step from the old psyker, maelstrom, and command cards. I just fear the cards are a phase one and after release the old codex books will override them and make them a waste.

[Lord Torath]

I know I would love to buy a deck of cards with super easy rule reference for each unit rather than a whole book with repeated page flips for every rule I needed to check. Especially as I can just place the card on the table next to the unit in question for easy access for both players, no gotchas. The rules are right there, out in the open. I know I was writing fake cards for a lot of my armies on cue cards, but my writing sucks and it was quite time consuming. This just seems the natural next step from the old psyker, maelstrom, and command cards. I just fear the cards are a phase one and after release the old codex books will override them and make them a waste.

I was doing the same for 2e AD&D psionic powers until I discovered my printer could handle 3x5 index cards. Did them up in a word processor program (MS Word, but there are certainly other options) and now I just print them out when I need them. You could do the same thing if the codexes (codices?) make the cards obsolete.

[Cheesegear]

You could do the same thing if the codexes (codices?) make the cards obsolete.

For D&D, I make cards for everything using GIMP.
I was making cards for Kill Team a long, long time ago - I remember posting them here.
My LGS often has a free M:tG token bin (especially after draft/sealed weekends) I can use for card backs to give them weight.

[NeoVid]

Since I can't find the Warhammer Fluff thread, I'll ask a totally random question here: What happens to a lone Ork who's cut off from the WAAAAAGH? I seem to remember hearing that without influence from the rest of the hivemind, a stray Ork can turn out surprisingly reasonable. Long ago, I read an excellent short story about a captured Warboss who was held in captivity for study long enough that he ended up being mistaken for a greenish Ogryn. However, I've got no idea if that was an official or fan story... and how much that matters, considering this setting's canon.

[Cheesegear]

What happens to a lone Ork who's cut off from the WAAAAAGH? I seem to remember hearing that without influence from the rest of the hivemind, a stray Ork can turn out surprisingly reasonable.

"Cut off"?

The Waaagh, is a few things:
- It's a psychic link between all Orks that lets them find each other. Basically a magnet.
- When two - or more - Orks meet, they instinctively know who is the boss.
- Presumably, it's also the thing that causes Orks to have genetic memory. Over time, Orks become smarter the more Orks that are around them. This phenomenon appears to be why Ork Warbosses aren't just huge. Surely at some point...Wouldn't you get a stupid Warboss? ...Nope.
- Because of its psychic nature, it appears to mitigate some, if not all, of the effects of Warp Travel. Just being in the Warp isn't enough to corrupt an Ork. Something has to actually be done to them to corrupt them. It doesn't just happen, like with other races.

I vaguely recall that a solitary Ork, cut off from other Orks - usually due to capture - falls into deep depression. They can feel other Orks through the Waaagh!, but they can't go to them. This causes solitary Orks (e.g; Freebooters) to be fairly emotionally unstable and depressed, where of course their natural instinct is to fight anything and everything...A clever Rogue Trader just has to point them in the right direction, and obviously prevent it from meeting any other Ork. Lest the Orks immediately form a Waaagh! of two.
But a solitary Ork can still feel The Big Green, he's just by himself.

Sisters of Silence fight Orks during The War of the Beast. Their aura causes the Orks to immediately start infighting, and unable to work together...And a Weirdboy's head straight up explodes...But I think that's because a Weirdboy's psychic presence is simply stronger than a regular Ork's, and that's kind of what Sisters of Silence are supposed to do to hostile Psykers.

So I guess Being "cut off" from the Waaagh (a la Sisters of Silence), probably means that Orks simply aren't able to recognise each other anymore, fail to recognise authority, and presumably lose a lot of their intelligence.

[Grim Portent]

You could compare it to the real life phenomena it's based on, English* football clubs when they go all crazy.

A football fan on his own is a perfectly normal person, they might even be pleasant and come across rather intelligent. Put a group of them in a room and you start to get progressively louder chants that gradually become near unintelligable, drunken shenanigans and so on. It's a form of infectious enthusiasm. An Ork cut off from other Orkz is probably a lot like what this grouping of people become like when they can't go to or watch a match.

So a lone Ork is probably grumpy, rather down and listless unless it gets a chance to 'play football,' which is to say fight or do whatever their own obsession is if they're an Oddboy. Put him with some other lads and he'll perk right up. Outright depression is not unreasonable if they can't do anything fun for an extended period. Orkz need other Orkz, in an exaggerated form of humans needing social contact.



@Cheesegear, on the note of Freebootaz, IIRC there's a bit in the Rogue Trader RPG to do with crew compliments that specifies that when you have a xeno PC a portion of the ship's crew is intended to be their underlings. So an Ork PC comes with boyz and grotz that clash with the human crew, hence the morale penalties the ship suffers for each xeno PC involved, even if you don't take any Xenos ship components. The iconic Freeboota isn't supposed to be alone even if they're the only Ork who gets to hang out with the Rogue Trader, as there's a chunk of ship that has been Orkified and is populated primarily by greenskins.

I don't think many groups play it this way, but it is in the text to the best of my recollection.



*And Scottish until fairly recently. Worst of that nonsense has been reigned in around here these days. No idea how the Welsh behave around football come to think of it.

[Forum Explorer]

"Cut off"?

The Waaagh, is a few things:
- It's a psychic link between all Orks that lets them find each other. Basically a magnet.
- When two - or more - Orks meet, they instinctively know who is the boss.
- Presumably, it's also the thing that causes Orks to have genetic memory. Over time, Orks become smarter the more Orks that are around them. This phenomenon appears to be why Ork Warbosses aren't just huge. Surely at some point...Wouldn't you get a stupid Warboss? ...Nope.
- Because of its psychic nature, it appears to mitigate some, if not all, of the effects of Warp Travel. Just being in the Warp isn't enough to corrupt an Ork. Something has to actually be done to them to corrupt them. It doesn't just happen, like with other races.

I vaguely recall that a solitary Ork, cut off from other Orks - usually due to capture - falls into deep depression. They can feel other Orks through the Waaagh!, but they can't go to them. This causes solitary Orks (e.g; Freebooters) to be fairly emotionally unstable and depressed, where of course their natural instinct is to fight anything and everything...A clever Rogue Trader just has to point them in the right direction, and obviously prevent it from meeting any other Ork. Lest the Orks immediately form a Waaagh! of two.
But a solitary Ork can still feel The Big Green, he's just by himself.

Sisters of Silence fight Orks during The War of the Beast. Their aura causes the Orks to immediately start infighting, and unable to work together...And a Weirdboy's head straight up explodes...But I think that's because a Weirdboy's psychic presence is simply stronger than a regular Ork's, and that's kind of what Sisters of Silence are supposed to do to hostile Psykers.

So I guess Being "cut off" from the Waaagh (a la Sisters of Silence), probably means that Orks simply aren't able to recognise each other anymore, fail to recognise authority, and presumably lose a lot of their intelligence.

That one is wrong. Orks fight all the time. Particularly when they encounter a new Warboss or when the old Warboss dies. The most common way for them to determine who is actually in charge is scrappin. Unless it's obvious cause one of them is clearly bigger and stronger. But if there is doubt, then they'll fight and figure it out that way.

[Easy e]

This has changed a lot since 1st Editions Waaaagh! Da Orks books until today's Cannon. Therefore, it is kind of hard to answer this question as it strongly depends on which "canon" sources you are using.

[NeoVid]

I figured there would be a ton of contradictory versions preventing an easy canon answer after all this time. In that case, I should just use whatever version gives me the most entertaining options for playing this guy.

[BRC]

That one is wrong. Orks fight all the time. Particularly when they encounter a new Warboss or when the old Warboss dies. The most common way for them to determine who is actually in charge is scrappin. Unless it's obvious cause one of them is clearly bigger and stronger. But if there is doubt, then they'll fight and figure it out that way.

I believe that orks DO have a method for determining who is Da Boss.

That Method is "Which one is Biggest", if that test does not resolve the issue, beating the snot out of each other until one side can't stand anymore is also more than acceptable.
If the Waaugh has an effect, it would be less around identifying Da Boss, and more around the orcish instinct to follow Da Boss's orders, at least up until the point where you think you can be a Better Boss, at which point you immedietally shoot them in the back and take their teeth.

As with a lot of Ork stuff, my understanding is that it's a bit fuzzy how much is, like, the psychic affects of the WAAUGH vs just how Orks are.

A bunch of Orks in one place will pick a boss and seek a fight. If they find other orcs, they will fight over who is in charge. If they meet not-orcs they'll fight to take the not-orcs stuff and be prepared to go find a Bigger Fight. But there are no hard and fast rules. Blood Axes and Freebootas have determined that if you DON'T instantly fight every non-orc you see, some of them will give you weapons to go and fight OTHER things, which can lead to you having more stuff than orcs who follow the "If it's not an orc hit it and take it's stuff" school of thought.

So you can play a "Reasonable" Ork, but they will be, primarily, an Ork. I personally think of Orks as basically Murderhobo RPG characters. The thing they value is Combat Power, which can be increased by Getting into Fights (XP) and Getting Stuff To Make Them Better At Fights (loot). Basically anything can be justified so long as it is pursuit of those two goals.

Of course, they're not perfectly rational. So basically any behavior that falls SHORT of those goals can also be justified. An Orc can agree to work as a mercenary if they're promised plenty of good fighting and a big shiny Shoota at the end of their contract. The same orc can also get bored one day and shoot said employer in the back because this job isn't fun anymore and anyway they're more into Choppas now.

[Cheesegear]

Outright depression is not unreasonable if they can't do anything fun for an extended period. Orkz need other Orkz, in an exaggerated form of humans needing social contact.
[...]
The iconic Freeboota isn't supposed to be alone...

I wish I could remember who said it (Maybe Robin Hobb [Farseer, Liveship Traders]? I don't think it was David Eddings...). But the best way to write a story, is to write a love story, and set it anywhere (those who recall my writing for Tor Garadon and Sven Bloodhowl know that whoever said it, I agree).

...There's a story there. Just a sad Ork, alone, on a Rogue Trader ship, that can feel the magnets in his head.

Therefore, it is kind of hard to answer this question as it strongly depends on which "canon" sources you are using.

Just answer it using the most recent example, because that's the way GW is writing it:

The most recent example I can think of is in War of the Beast, when Sisters of Silence fight Orks. The Orks are literally "cut off" from the Waaagh, as the question asks. The results of being cut off, is effectively the opposite of what I last read The Waaagh, was. Cool. The canon seems entirely consistent. It also confirms that the Waaagh is real, and it is empyrean in nature - hence Sisters of Silence being able to affect the field.

Roks - and most Ork ships - don't have Gellar Fields. Why don't Orks implode the second a Warphead opens a Rift? ...Waaagh. That's why. Seems consistent.

How do Orks find each other over interstellar distances? Forming a Waaagh! ...Magnets. How do they work?

The only thing the Waaagh isn't, is "Orks make things real by believing real hard." That's definitely been dead canon since 4th.
...Also anything that came out of Gorkamorka is almost certainly dead canon...Except for Ork dentology and their currency. That seemed to stick.

[Renegade Paladin]

- Presumably, it's also the thing that causes Orks to have genetic memory. Over time, Orks become smarter the more Orks that are around them. This phenomenon appears to be why Ork Warbosses aren't just huge. Surely at some point...Wouldn't you get a stupid Warboss? ...Nope.

Counterpoint: Grukk Face-Rippa.

[Grim Portent]

You do get stupid warbosses, they just don't last long (narratively speaking) because they decide to use the things smart bosses only use for the boyz, or pick a fight with something they're not 'ard enough to krump. Like particularly janky telleportation devices that cut them in half vertically when they teleport into a wall, or planes with too little fuel to actually go somewhere so they crash shortly after takeoff and stuff like that, or a boss who's barely more than a nob picking a fight with Kharn and being reduced to a pile of nondescript meat chunks.

The WAAAGH!!! makes Orkz smarter, but if the boss started out dumb as a rock, he's still only going to have the brains of a particularly witty turnip regardless of how much WAAAGH!!! gets pumped into his thinky bitz.


Ork lore, like most of 40k, tends to focus on the characters who aren't completely incompetent. The ones who are incompetent are antagonists to the smart characters and are quickly left behind, dead or alive. But for every Chenkov or Karamazov who manages to make staggeringly stupid decisions work somehow there's a hundred people who try the same dumb ideas and wind up dead to serve as a narrative refutation of the ideas the former represent.

Also depends somewhat on the tone of the work in question. Orkz as depicted in a Ciaphas Cain story are different from the ones in Rynn's World or Siege of Castellax, with the former being less inclined to dwell on their cunning or cruelty the way the latter two do.

[Cheesegear]

The WAAAGH!!! makes Orkz smarter, but if the boss started out dumb as a rock, he's still only going to have the brains of a particularly witty turnip regardless of how much WAAAGH!!! gets pumped into his thinky bitz.

Gork; Strong, but smart.
Mork; Smart, but strong.

Orks - like most...Intelligent beings - prize intelligence. However, Ork physiology dictates that intelligence and physical strength are closely linked, and that the Waaagh! makes Orks stronger and smarter the more Orks congregate.
...In my headcanon, there's also some fuzzy logic where that if an Ork accepts that another Ork is The Boss, psychically, The Boss becomes stronger and smarter simply due to the group's psychic acceptance of authority.

Again, The War of the Beast, invented, well...Beast-Class Orks (Ghazgkull Thraka, is one). When there were so many Orks in one place, on the verge of bringing the Imperium to its knees, these massive, incredibly intelligent Orks were manifested. So scary and so smart, that Vulkan had to bail (even though he's a Perpetual...).

Then you get Ghazgkull, Prophet of the Waaagh! Literally. So many Orks believe in him, and accept his authority, that over the years he's become bigger and bigger, and smarter and smarter (They've actually incorporated his models' redesigns into the fluff!), and the more Orks flock to him - like a big ****ing magnet - the more bigger and more smarter he gets.

If you put two magnets together, it's stronger than one magnet.
Heh...The Waaagh! is just psychic magnetism.

[Grim Portent]

They may prize intelligence but their heirarchy is still determined by who's biggest and best at fighting, and they vary in individual size and intellect as much as any other species. A smart but weak boy is going to struggle to gain the rank needed to continue to get bigger and rise through the ranks, while a dumb but strong boy can just punch his way up until he meets something that brawn can't handle. The former is likely to live longer if they do rise up, but the latter is more likely to reach the status of a nob or boss.

Orkz like Gazghkull or Zodgrod were smart even before becoming a boss, they just got smarter still as they rose to power and got older. And just learned things, it's not all inherent knowledge after all.

While they're different and operate on different fictional logic, the same can be seen with their fantasy counterparts. Skarsnik was a genius among goblins even as a runt, and the same broadly holds true for Grimgor, IIRC he was always smart even for a Black Orc.

[Lord Torath]

Since I can't find the Warhammer Fluff thread, I'll ask a totally random question here: What happens to a lone Ork who's cut off from the WAAAAAGH? I seem to remember hearing that without influence from the rest of the hivemind, a stray Ork can turn out surprisingly reasonable. Long ago, I read an excellent short story about a captured Warboss who was held in captivity for study long enough that he ended up being mistaken for a greenish Ogryn. However, I've got no idea if that was an official or fan story... and how much that matters, considering this setting's canon.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was a fan story. The ork warboss slowly becomes less and less ork-like and one of the scribes/acolytes that was taking care of him became more and more warlike, until he runs off and starts a Waaagh!

I don't suppose you've still got the link to that website. It had a lot of cool stories. There was a bolter-and-chainsword style one featuring Cheesegear's favorite chapter (Imperial Fists, last I heard). A story called "A Millennium of Pain" about a Dark Angels dreadnought, "The Intruder" about a red and white daemon "haunting" the Inquisition's installation on Holy Terra's northern pole, and a long one about an IG elite team fighting tyranids and chaos marines.

[Grim Portent]

This discussion made me think of feral orkz for some reason, and how they still have all the types of boys but primitive, like mekboys making catapults and weird ass melee weapons, speed freeks riding on squigs or other animals (classically boars) and burnaboyz using fire arrows and pots of flaming tar and things like that.

I got this really dumb idea for a tribe of feral orkz native to a mountainous ice world, where the speed freeks use skis to attack enemies at high speed, then spend ages trudging up the slope to get back into the fight complaining all the way.

[BRC]

This discussion made me think of feral orkz for some reason, and how they still have all the types of boys but primitive, like mekboys making catapults and weird ass melee weapons, speed freeks riding on squigs or other animals (classically boars) and burnaboyz using fire arrows and pots of flaming tar and things like that.

I got this really dumb idea for a tribe of feral orkz native to a mountainous ice world, where the speed freeks use skis to attack enemies at high speed, then spend ages trudging up the slope to get back into the fight complaining all the way.

Now I' imagining the same orks getting uplifted by a spacefaring WAAAUGH, and their Mekboyz build mister-freeze style weather machines to ensure a steady supply of snow for their Skiboyz to use (The Skiboyz now have Rockets)}

They may prize intelligence but their heirarchy is still determined by who's biggest and best at fighting, and they vary in individual size and intellect as much as any other species. A smart but weak boy is going to struggle to gain the rank needed to continue to get bigger and rise through the ranks, while a dumb but strong boy can just punch his way up until he meets something that brawn can't handle. The former is likely to live longer if they do rise up, but the latter is more likely to reach the status of a nob or boss.

Orkz like Gazghkull or Zodgrod were smart even before becoming a boss, they just got smarter still as they rose to power and got older. And just learned things, it's not all inherent knowledge after all.

While they're different and operate on different fictional logic, the same can be seen with their fantasy counterparts. Skarsnik was a genius among goblins even as a runt, and the same broadly holds true for Grimgor, IIRC he was always smart even for a Black Orc.

The impression I always got was that there is some innate variance in Orks, just like in any species.

It's just that Orks also get bigger and smarter the longer they live and the more they fight. The rest is just Orkish natural selection.

So, an ork like Ghazghkull is Kunnin' and Brutal even when he's the size of a standard Ork, taking on and overthrowing bigger and more experienced Bosses and Nobz. In doing so, he becomes bigger and stronger. He also becomes Smarter.

As far as the "Inherient Knowledge" I think that's mostly for the specialists, Meks, Painboyz and the like who will automatically start assembling guns and vehicles and such with whatever tech is available.



that said, I do have a question. The classic Ork tech look roughly maps to Human tech: Wheels and treads and the like. Is that because that's the style of tech that Orks are innately built to use, or is it just because, much like the generic Genestealer Cult, The generic Ork is assumed to have primarily been working in Imperial space. Would Orks from Tau territory be building hovertrukks and plasma shootas? Or would they be melting Tau tech down for scrap to build the recognizable ork-tech we know and love?

I now have the mental image of a bunch of Grots surfing around on hacked Tau drones.

I guess my question is if the Mek's instinctive understanding of Tech comes with pseduo-blueprints for specific vehicles and weapons and such, or if they just get enough understanding to invent stuff from first-principles, and given available materials and consistent goals, tend to end up at roughly the same places (Wheeled vehicles are easier to build and go faster than, say, legged mechs, so two Meks on different planets will probably both end up building bikes before they build ridable mecha-emus)