Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, 40k is a comedy setting. It's generally very dark comedy, but it's funny enough that it's aimed directly at kids. 'Red Ones go faster' is ridiculous but so is 'Kaldor Draigo the Grey Knight with a **** so big Slaanesh turned down sex', and so is the Imperium misplacing planets because tithe records were misfiled (and then invading them to collect back taxes).

There were attempts to have a setting that kind of made sense under all that back in the day, but that has been abandoned by 3e/4e.

Orks seemingly stand out in the humour department, but I think a lot of the time it's just people not getting the joke. Remember they literally had to spell it out when it came to the T'au. The Imperium is just as ridiculous if you stop to look at it.

Heck I'd argue the orks' scrapyard look is a LOT less silly than the canonical appearance of Imperial voidships. And everybody loves the interstellar battle cathedrals.

[Cheesegear]

Hell, I'd be totally down for the walking scrapyard look if they really leaned into it and went whole hog with the idea

I think Gorkamorka was a step in that direction.
It didn't take.

Ghazghkull really, has been the only successful Ork thing in a while. The argument there would be "Well, why doesn't GW just make something else cool? ...Whatever happened to Orkiemedes?"

I mean, 40k is a comedy setting.

Strong disagree.
Or, you haven't read anything since 2nd Ed.

There were attempts to have a setting that kind of made sense under all that back in the day, but that has been abandoned by 3e/4e.

I argue the exact opposite.
40K was a comedy setting. Then, in 3rd and 4th Eds. was when it got serious, and has been to this day.

Let's have a look at all the "jokes" in...Any recent Codex. You can pick.

Orks seemingly stand out in the humour department

I found it really funny when Ghazghkull would throw asteroids at Armageddon.
Oooh. Oooh. My favourite part was when the Celestial Lions fought the Orks. That was hilarious.

Or maybe you mean that Dok Grotsnik in order to bring Ghazgkull back from the dead used a satellite that was in orbit to shoot lightning at his corpse to resuscitate him?
...That doesn't really sound funny to me. To me it just makes Ghazgkull sound cool, and that's simply just how awesome you need to be to bring back Ghazgkull bigger and badder than he was before.

40K runs on Rule of Cool. Not Rule of Funny.

The Imperium is just as ridiculous if you stop to look at it.

If you take everything ad absurdum, yes. For example...

'Kaldor Draigo the Grey Knight with a **** so big Slaanesh turned down sex'

...That didn't happen.
But I don't agree that storylines like the Horus Heresy are meant to be taken ad absurdum.

Isn't it hilarious that Ravenor is an Alpha-level Psyker bound to a hoverchair? I dunno. Feels like a trope. Professor X did it.

Heck I'd argue the orks' scrapyard look is a LOT less silly than the canonical appearance of Imperial voidships. And everybody loves the interstellar battle cathedrals.

Orks hollow out asteroids, put engines and guns in it, and go.
Their classifications are Rok, Big Rok and Mega Rok...And the War of the Beast introduced literal Attack Moons.

Seems silly. But it's not stupid. So I'll buy it. As long as it's consistent.

Remember when there were no rules to the Waaagh! field and it could literally do anything and wasn't consistent at all and a lot of really stupid **** happened? ...Yeah that's all gone. The Waaagh! field isn't magic.

"Orks are a humanoid fungus."
I guess that's silly. But in-universe it's treated as a very serious issue. Anywhere you find Orks, you have to burn everything because if you don't you'll get a surprise infestation of Orks in a few months. I dunno. Kind of makes Orks seem like a existential threat because you can't get rid of them. Not "Humanoid fungus, lol"

Star Wars is just "Wizards with laser swords."
...Sounds like you didn't engage with the story, and you're insulting the people who did.

[Anonymouswizard]

Strong disagree.
Or, you haven't read anything since 2nd Ed.

I started in late 4e, when it was clearly a comedy setting. A lot more subtle than the Rogue Trader days in terms of satire, but uncountably a comedy setting. 5e had issues where the jokes just didn't land, see Grey Knights slaughtering Sisters of Battle, but they were still very much there.

Like have you actually read the books? It's very clear that this is all being played for laughs. The Imperium is a joke and we're all supposed to be in on it.

[Cheesegear]

Like have you actually read the books?

I've read ****loads of books. Which one(s) are you talking about specifically?

Helsreach isn't funny at all (that's the one referenced in my previous post).
Neither is McNeill's Forges of Mars trilogy. And that has the fascism on full display. Complete with Lower Decks storylines.
Almost nothing Dan Abnett has ever written has been funny; I'm sure of that.

ADB and John French (and to a lesser extent William/Billy King and Chris Wraight) run off of Rule of Cool, fur sure (ADB also wrote Helsreach, if that matters). Any humor in their books comes from banter between characters... This is the style I like. War is Hell. But if two people can find a way to laugh despite the chaos (pun unintended) it'll probably be alright - even if one of them dies.

It's very clear that this is all being played for laughs.

Do you think "The Life Expectancy of a Guardsman in the first phase of war is approximately 15 hours." is intended to be a comedic line?

EDIT: Better; Do you think "War is Hell." is a comedic line?

If yes; Then we engage with the content differently, I guess.

EDIT 2:

The Imperium is a joke and we're all supposed to be in on it.

I guess I read Master of Mankind wrong, I guess.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'Do you think "The Life Expectancy of a Guardsman in the first phase of war is approximately 15 hours." is intended to be a comedic line?

Yes, it's hilarious. You seem to be under the bizarre impression that dark and funny don't go han.

In 40k war isn't just hell, it's against literal demons

[Cheesegear]

Yes, it's hilarious. You seem to be under the bizarre impression that dark and funny don't go hand

Okay. You are equating absurdity and/or satire with comedy. That, or you find absurdity in and of itself, comedic.
Which is fine...I guess.
But once upon a time Brave New World was considered absurdist, and yet here we are.
Ciaphas Cain is a decent set of stories. Sure. I see the comedy. Blackadder is great.
But if you're asking me if The First Heretic is funny? ...No. If you're asking me if Dorn telling Sigismund "If you do this; You're no longer my son." is funny...No.

We have the "Does 40K support fascism?" question brought up every year. The answer is obviously "Absolutely not." because have you read...Any of it?
However, just because it's absurd; Authors don't treat it as a joke. It's serious business.

[Insert part where a 40K novel actually took inspiration form a board-unsafe real-life event]...Not very funny at all. Absurd, because it's 40K. But not funny.

I disagree with your assertion that 40K is comedic. But now I see we're you're coming from (absurd and funny are the same thing; Or absurd is funny) and I know now we're not going to agree because it's essentially a matter of taste.

Back to toy soldiers.

[Artanis]

I dunno, one of the funniest lines I've ever heard was from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, attacking the Chaos base as Tau.

Chaos Leader: blah blah blah power of Chaos etc etc
Shas'o: "There is a buzzing in my comms. Changing frequency."
Chaos Leader: *indignant spluttering*

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Okay. You are equating absurdity and/or satire with comedy. That, or you find absurdity in and of itself, comedic.
Which is fine...I guess.
But once upon a time Brave New World was considered absurdist, and yet here we are.
Ciaphas Cain is a decent set of stories. Sure. I see the comedy. Blackadder is great.
But if you're asking me if The First Heretic is funny? ...No. If you're asking me if Dorn telling Sigismund "If you do this; You're no longer my son." is funny...No.

We have the "Does 40K support fascism?" question brought up every year. The answer is obviously "Absolutely not." because have you read...Any of it?
However, just because it's absurd; Authors don't treat it as a joke. It's serious business.

[Insert part where a 40K novel actually took inspiration form a board-unsafe real-life event]...Not very funny at all. Absurd, because it's 40K. But not funny.

I disagree with your assertion that 40K is comedic. But now I see we're you're coming from (absurd and funny are the same thing; Or absurd is funny) and I know now we're not going to agree because it's essentially a matter of taste.

Back to toy soldiers.

Today Warhammer Community featured an article about the Darkoath Tribes and it occurred to me that they went through the same arc with Age of Sigmar, starting silly but gradually taking the world more seriously. Mortal Realms are starting to feel more fleshed out. I'm sure if I had been reading the AoS books I'd have noticed it sooner.

Another point I suppose is that 40k does not have a single creative mind or intention but rather a rotating stable of creative people. Different interpretations will come and go and GW benefits from keeping the lore halfway consistent and halfway ambiguous. If people have enough structure to build on but enough flexibility to make the army they want to make, the job's a good one.

Curious what the overlap is between people who prefer the comedy and people who prefer non-competitive gaming.

[Blackhawk748]

Curious what the overlap is between people who prefer the comedy and people who prefer non-competitive gaming.

I was pretty casual and I liked it when some of the silliness was there. Not like Python esque levels, but I did like it when the Orks seemed silly from the other side of the page.

Like, in universe they are not funny. They're a band of insane nutcases who have the restraint of a 4 year old hopped up on 8 pounds of sugar, and I liked when I could still notice the fact that they were based on football hooligans.

Basically, I liked it when it seemed like the Orks were having fun with their carnage and insanity. So Space Marine's Grimskull or Dawn of War's Gorgutz as example. They are hilarious, while I am in a different universe.

[Wraith]

Okay. You are equating absurdity and/or satire with comedy. That, or you find absurdity in and of itself, comedic.

[...] But now I see we're you're coming from (absurd and funny are the same thing; Or absurd is funny) and I know now we're not going to agree because it's essentially a matter of taste.

Satire is a form of comedy. Not the laugh-out-loud, uproarious kind, but the dark shrewd kind of grim fatalism akin to some witty last words before someone is executed.
Warhammer is satire, in more than one way. It comments on religion, and politics, and the human condition, in a way that is - frankly - quite silly in how serious it pretends to be.
Silly is also comedy. That's not necessarily the same as putting on clown makeup and making fart noises.

Comedic isn't necessarily the same thing as funny; Bill Hicks and George Carlin are some of the greatest comedians of all time, but they very rarely did anything as crass as tell a joke.
Warhammer fits the dictionary definition of comedy in that it's outrageous, facetious, and is used to convey a serious message in an obfuscated - and therefore comparatively safe - manner.

Warhammer, like ogres, is like an onion. It has layers....

I started in late 4e, when it was clearly a comedy setting.

In the same vein as what I said above, I see where you're coming from. 4th Edition was the one where Tau would give magical brain-washing helmets to their neighbours and pretend that made them great diplomats, and that Tyranids would just steal their aesthetic and gimmick from 1980's action moves like Aliens and Tremors. That's humorous - it's not necessarily funny in the sense that you laugh at it, but it's definitely a joke because it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Calling it 'comedy' is technically correct, for certain definitions of 'comedy'.

Basically, I liked it when it seemed like the Orks were having fun with their carnage and insanity. So Space Marine's Grimskull or Dawn of War's Gorgutz as example. They are hilarious, while I am in a different universe.

Definitely agree. I liked Orks because they were the opposite of Space Marines, who are usually portrayed as stuffy, joyless Arthurian Knights In Space. Some of them even say "thou" and other archaic nonsense. That's silly, and not in the good way.

Similarly, Aeldari are uptight and arrogant. Necrons have no personality whatsoever or are have paranoid dementia with nothing in between. Chaos are bad Shakespeare monologues. It's honestly kind of nice to have a faction like Orks who are allowed to be curious and have a personality beyond "Space Monk".

[druid91]

I argue the exact opposite.
40K was a comedy setting. Then, in 3rd and 4th Eds. was when it got serious, and has been to this day.

This does not exactly strike me as 'super serious'.

[Blackhawk748]

This does not exactly strike me as 'super serious'.

Orks were really the only ones allowed to do this sort of thing. Others were more of the straight faced absurdist, the GrimDerp like having a thousand slaves load a single battleship gun, but they were also being genuinely serious with the GrimDark, 15 Hours.

Orks just always leaned more on just straight absurdism, and are only terrifying monstrosities when you peel back their silly veneer, one of several reasons I like them. From the Orks perspective, they're running around blaring Free Bird and getting into drunken fights.

From everyone else's perspective, they're basically slightly weirder Fallout Super Mutants who are a bunch of cackling madmen ripping people apart and destroying things for no discernable reason and then promptly leaving once they win, or get wiped out.

They manage to balance the general appeal of 40k for a lot of people, though they do lean on the absurdist parts harder. Honestly, the probably best GrimDark counterpart to them was the OldCrons or the Nids. Neither one of them are funny, there's nothing absurdist in them, they're both a pair of unknowable eldritch horrors, one is just more Lovecraft and the other is more HE Gieger.

[druid91]

Though it's no longer maintained and the website is sadly gone, the Regimental Standard was clearly meant to be comedic, and it was maintained up until 2021.

[Cheesegear]

Curious what the overlap is between people who prefer the comedy and people who prefer non-competitive gaming.

"Everyone is competitive now" coincides with 40K not being silly anymore.

Satire is a form of comedy. Not the laugh-out-loud, uproarious kind, but the dark shrewd kind of grim fatalism akin to some witty last words before someone is executed.
Warhammer is satire, in more than one way. It comments on religion, and politics, and the human condition, in a way that is - frankly - quite silly in how serious it pretends to be.

Satire isn't inherently funny. Most of the time when I'm using blue-and-purple texts is satire - using a hyperbolic example of the truth to make a point. Contemporarily, using satire to make a point that isn't funny, tends to make people mad. Because typically using hyperbolic examples to make a point is often just at best insulting or at worst dishonest...But obviously that varies by subject matter.

[Insert real-world example].

That's not necessarily the same as putting on clown makeup and making fart noises.

You're right. We need more poop and fart jokes in 40K!
...See? Satire. Using a hyberbolic example to make a point. It's not necessarily funny. But people do (hopefully) understand that the example I'm using isn't real, but do understand the point even though the example isn't real.

That's an issue that 40K (and Starship Troopers [the movie, not the book]) has. The examples they're using are real (and sometimes straight up mirror real-world events), not funny. But, because of context (i.e; 40K is Hell), the things that look like real life are not overtly condemned or made fun of.

Kill thousands to save billions - with a "b."
So you're saying killing thousands is okay!? But [real world]!
That's not what I said.

"40K is satire!"
...If it is; It's not very good at it. If 40K is "dark comedy", again, in 202x, it's a very bad dark comedy. I haven't seen anything like "dark comedy" since 5th Ed. I'm not saying 40K wasn't funny, or it wasn't supposed to be, a long time ago. I'm saying whatever it was, it isn't anymore.

15 Hours is similar to at least one [real world example] that I know about. It's similar...But if it's a direct reference (and I wouldn't be surprised if it is)? I've said it before; 15 Hours is the kind of book that makes people stare at the wall after reading. Not just as a 40K novel...Just...As a novel. And in 40K we're supposed to believe that scenarios like 15 Hours happen all the time. I first read 15 Hours when I was about 20. I think the protagonist is 17 or 18...Something, something real world.

Comedic isn't necessarily the same thing as funny
[...]
Calling it 'comedy' is technically correct, for certain definitions of 'comedy'.

Agreed. In the definition of comedy and tragedy; Sure. A comedy is just a story where nobody dies.

I've mentioned it before; My first introduction to the 40K novels was Inquisition War, and I read Space Marine soon after.

Absurd. Callidus Assassins turning into Genestealers, and Squats-on-Trikes (remember Squats?), cow-demons...But the story ends with an Imperial Fist shooting a Possessed Inquisitor in the back of the head. Not funny.

Is 40K absurd? Yes. It's on the tin. It's the main selling point of the setting.
Is 40K satire? ...Sometimes. Not as often as you think. Sometimes it's just a story about Hell (see "Is 40K absurd?").
Is 40K funny? ...Uhh...In 202x? In 20xx? ...Rarely. Or maybe it's subjective and I just don't find child soldiers being thrown into a meat grinder, funny. Some might. But I don't.

This does not exactly strike me as 'super serious'.

Wake me up when they do it again and again, and then again. Then make a Faction out of it. Then write novels.

1d4chan made plenty of outright hilarious content. 40K is a setting where you can do whatever you want. Some of it might even be funny. GW, rarely makes content like that. Why? They could, but they don't. I wont begin to speculate.

[druid91]

They do do it again and again, they've done goofy animations and minis every christmas for years and they've been posting comedy comics for ages.

Also, have you read Brutal Kunnin' or Infinite and Divine?

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

"Everyone is competitive now" coincides with 40K not being silly anymore.

That is consistent with my own anecdotal evidence from forums and in-person conversations. Most people I've talked to think of 40k more as fun than silly.

I've mentioned it before; My first introduction to the 40K novels was Inquisition War, and I read Space Marine soon after.

Absurd. Callidus Assassins turning into Genestealers, and Squats-on-Trikes (remember Squats?), cow-demons...But the story ends with an Imperial Fist shooting a Possessed Inquisitor in the back of the head. Not funny.

The first 40k book I read was 15 Hours and, combined with the lore from the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex (oh my poor little slotta-based hormagaunts, I mistreated you) really solidified a specific vision of the lived experience in the 40k world.

Satire is a form of comedy. Not the laugh-out-loud, uproarious kind, but the dark shrewd kind of grim fatalism akin to some witty last words before someone is executed.
Warhammer is satire, in more than one way. It comments on religion, and politics, and the human condition, in a way that is - frankly - quite silly in how serious it pretends to be.
Silly is also comedy. That's not necessarily the same as putting on clown makeup and making fart noises.

Comedic isn't necessarily the same thing as funny; Bill Hicks and George Carlin are some of the greatest comedians of all time, but they very rarely did anything as crass as tell a joke.
Warhammer fits the dictionary definition of comedy in that it's outrageous, facetious, and is used to convey a serious message in an obfuscated - and therefore comparatively safe - manner.

Warhammer, like ogres, is like an onion. It has layers....

Calling it 'comedy' is technically correct, for certain definitions of 'comedy'.

The best kind of correct! That said I feel like a historical perspective is helpful, I think we could probably all agree that:
1) Rogue Trader was outright farcical at times;
2) Later editions gradually toned it down;
3) Different creative teams have had different interpretations; and so,
4) Both official outlets (e.g., WarCom) and fan content like to emphasize the comedy, because it's accessible and fun and implicit in the text;
5) We are all entitled to enjoy the parts of the hobby that we enjoy

[Wraith]

"40K is satire!"
...If it is; It's not very good at it.

Of course it isn't. It was written in the 1980's Britain (a bad sign in and of itself) after GW lost the licence to the Judge Dredd/2000AD IP and had a bunch of art and similar assets that they had to make use of. Then copyright law was pretty flimsy, and they were inspired by this new movie about Space Worms and people with glowing eyes and super soldiers who travel through space via shooting lazers through time... you know - The Ice Pirates.

That modern 40k is even vaguely coherent represents a herculean success by the 1990's teams.

Agreed. In the definition of comedy and tragedy; Sure. A comedy is just a story where nobody dies.

I will NOT sit here and listen to this anti-Weekend At Bernie's blasphemy.

4) Both official outlets (e.g., WarCom) and fan content like to emphasize the comedy, because it's accessible and fun and implicit in the text;

I'm going to be honest; the idea that something as customer friendly and clearly non-canon as Da Red Gobbo exists as a mascot and sales pitch driving ploy, and is being used as an example of how all of 40k must therefore be funny-comedy, proves that media literacy is dead.

They're only vaguely attached because it gets more money out of different types of people because it creates a bunch of IP-friendly ideas that target different demographics. It's like saying that Wizards of the Coast owns Magic The Gathering, so therefore D&D must be a card game. It's made by the same company, but it isn't in the same game. Just like the idea that Custodes have to be male holy **** did i just bring this thing back full circle or what

[Blackhawk748]

Just like the idea that Custodes have to be male holy **** did i just bring this thing back full circle or what

Lets be honest, the reason people thought that was because for the nearly 3 decades that the Custodes have existed, at no point did GW even pretend that there was a single woman anywhere in the ranks. The few named ones we had were all dudes, and their armor design was firmly into the "male" armor design group, cuz when 40k has a woman in armor, its incredibly obvious there's a woman in there, because 40k has its over the top artstyle.

And I don't even really care either, I just expect them to say this, and then do absolutely nothing with this new retcon (cuz it is because at no point has GW treated the Custodes at anything more than Super Space Marines, so even if it was never explicit in text, we all know that was how they were treated by the team, so they are retconning how they are treating them at least) for like a decade just like they did with Guardsmen. Cuz who else remem,bers how long people were asking for women Guardsmen? I do, and that was back in like 2005.

[Anonymouswizard]

Part of me wonders if it's a culture issue, very few people here in the UK would disagree on it being a comedy setting.

The comedy being good? That's a different argument.

Of course it isn't. It was written in the 1980's Britain (a bad sign in an of itself)

Yeah, if you want an idea of what a 40k 2.0 would look like satarising modern Britain Rick Priestley did essentially make that in Beyond the Gates of Antares. It's actually pretty good, although 2e is kind of in a holding pattern as Warlord Games decided it wasn't worth the investment compared to historical lines.

But it's a very different setting and not the focus of this thread.

[Destro_Yersul]

I wonder if I would find 40k anywhere near as funny if I hadn't grown up appreciating things like Monty Python and Fawlty Towers. Red Dwarf. Allo Allo.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, that was a big one, actually.

[druid91]

Of course it isn't. It was written in the 1980's Britain (a bad sign in an of itself) after GW lost the licence to the Judge Dredd/2000AD IP and had a bunch of art and similar assets that they had to make use of. Then copyright law was pretty flimsy, and they were inspired by this new movie about Space Worms and people with glowing eyes and super soldiers who travel through space via shooting lazers through time... you know - The Ice Pirates.

That modern 40k is even vaguely coherent represents a herculean success by the 1990's teams.



I will NOT sit here and listen to this anti-Weekend At Bernie's blasphemy.



I'm going to be honest; the idea that something as customer friendly and clearly non-canon as Da Red Gobbo exists as a mascot and sales pitch driving ploy, and is being used as an example of how all of 40k must therefore be funny-comedy, proves that media literacy is dead.

They're only vaguely attached because it gets more money out of different types of people because it creates a bunch of IP-friendly ideas that target different demographics. It's like saying that Wizards of the Coast owns Magic The Gathering, so therefore D&D must be a card game. It's made by the same company, but it isn't in the same game. Just like the idea that Custodes have to be male holy **** did i just bring this thing back full circle or what

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Da_...Demise_(Novel)

Da Red Gobbo is actually canon.

[Wraith]

Lets be honest, the reason people thought that was because for the nearly 3 decades that the Custodes have existed, at no point did GW even pretend that there was a single woman anywhere in the ranks. The few named ones we had were all dudes, and their armor design was firmly into the "male" armor design group, cuz when 40k has a woman in armor, its incredibly obvious there's a woman in there, because 40k has its over the top artstyle.

GW never said that Custodes weren't all male. Counter-point: They never said the WERE all male, either. GW have gone 30 years without naming two of their 20 Primarchs; what, did we really need a list of all 10,000 Companions first, just to appease Internet Nerds?

The armour thing is interesting to think about, if only because GW have definitely moved away from a lot of 'obviously' gendered minis in recent years. Slaaneshi daemons no longer have bare breasts for example, and even things like Sisters of Battle have been toned down, and this is absolutely partially because of accusations of sexism in the past.

But as we've said above; they change stuff a lot. "Custodes only wear the best objectively best armour, which is why it all looks the same" isn't THAT outlandish, even if it is an obvious retcon. GW aren't the only western companies moving away from "chainmail bikini-fantasy", and frankly it's a smart move to incorporate as far back as they can.

Part of me wonders if it's a culture issue, very few people here in the UK would disagree on it being a comedy setting.

The comedy being good? That's a different argument.

I've said something similar in the past. It's kind of like, Post-War, Britain took one look at the world and doubled-down on irony and satire. The US took one look at the same world and invented... I dunno, optimism, or something more akin to parody that wasn't intended to be taken seriously but somehow it got wildly out of control. Jingoism?

They had North & South; we had Sharpe. They got Starship Troopers and we we got Judge Dredd. They got Raymond Feist and we got Neil Gaiman. Contrast and compare: Red Dwarf (UK) and Red Dwarf (US). It's... educational.

I'm lacking the right terminology, but I think you can see the flavour of what I'm getting at. Neither are inherently bad (apart from Red Dwarf (US), obviously), let me be absolutely clear, but as media has shifted away from muscle-bound Hollywood blockbusters to grim, 'realistic' settings - away from clean, idyllic Lord of the Rings to grimy, bastard-ridden Game of Thrones - it's a lot less revolutionary seeming to Brits.

Da Red Gobbo is actually canon.

I see your 2022 novel, and raise you the 1998 miniature! From Gorkamorka, a game about what Mad Max would be like if everyone were angry mushrooms, and Green-Not-Lenin were trying to start a Bolshevik revolution against the bourgeoisie Ork Meks and their capitalist tag system!

I am not even remotely joking. That's actually the story behind this guy. The ruleset for this game went on to be THE blueprint for 40k Third edition.

The point being, it wasn't 'normal' 40k, it was a deliberate parody within what was already one of 40k's weirdest periods, 2nd Edition. That he later got used as the store mascot - there's a limited edition mini from 2019, way before the book was written for example - and then got further re-re-invented as an in-universe character, kind of just proves my point in that using THAT as the Ur-example to define what 40k is, should be cited as the rare exception that Cheesegear talked about there being way less of nowadays, and not the default of what the game still is :P

[druid91]

There's probably less comedic nonsense than their used to be, but it's still a heavy part of the setting and part of Orks in particular.

[Cheesegear]

They do do it again and again, they've done goofy animations and minis every christmas for years...

One promotional model per year and the occasional short? Designed almost literally as an end-of-year marketing campaign?
...I know you know better than to cite that as an example.

Might as well bring up that one Noise Marine.

Also, have you read Brutal Kunnin' or Infinite and Divine?

Hooray. Someone cites me a novel.
I have read neither.
But I've heard very good things about the latter. I'll make a point to look into it next time I'm looking for new books.

What else has Robert Rath written that I care about? Oh. That's probably why I've been in no hurry to pick it up.

The best kind of correct! That said I feel like a historical perspective is helpful, I think we could probably all agree that:
1) Rogue Trader was outright farcical at times;
2) Later editions gradually toned it down;
3) Different creative teams have had different interpretations; and so,
4) Both official outlets (e.g., WarCom) and fan content like to emphasize the comedy, because it's accessible and fun and implicit in the text;
5) We are all entitled to enjoy the parts of the hobby that we enjoy

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed. Graham McNeill writing a lot of 4th Ed. changed things.
3. IMO. Matt Ward dropped the Rule of Funny, and went hard into Rule of Cool... Hard.
4. Accessible to enthusiasts. As I said, enthusiasts don't spend money.
5. What!?

That modern 40k is even vaguely coherent represents a herculean success by the 1990's teams.

Priestly & Chambers? ...Yes.

I will NOT sit here and listen to this anti-Weekend At Bernie's blasphemy.

...Well played.

I'm going to be honest; the idea that something as customer friendly and clearly non-canon as Da Red Gobbo exists as a mascot and sales pitch driving ploy, and is being used as an example of how all of 40k must therefore be funny-comedy, proves that media literacy is dead.

Wraith gets it.

They're only vaguely attached because it gets more money out of different types of people because it creates a bunch of IP-friendly ideas that target different demographics.

Oof.

[druid91]

I will say I haven't finished Brutal Kunnin' yet but it is fun so far. It does balance the grimdark with the goofy pretty well.

[BananaPhone]

In regards to lady Custodes, it's curious that after GW receives funding from BlackRock and Vanguard, with their ESG demands, suddenly 30 years of lore saying that females cannot biologically cannot undergo Space Marine creation process because the technology to do so even for males is barely understood, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that most of the fanbase don't want to see it happen because the lore is important to them and they don't want it changed on a whim to suit twitter activists and multinational investors, we've always been at war with East Asia and GW will reward years of loyalty and thousands of dollars with gaslightning, a middle finger and the demand to bugger off if they don't like it while inviting in the noisy activists who collectively don't buy their products and don't care about the lore but just want another win in the ongoing culture wars.

The good news is that now that they have a 'foot in the door' so to speak, this issue, however minor, is just the beginning. There's going to be a lot more coming down the pipeline in years to come, and as we saw with Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who and a myriad other franchises, it'll do nothing but unite the fanbase and produce quality content /sarcasm.

[Renegade Paladin]

In regards to lady Custodes, it's curious that after GW receives funding from BlackRock and Vanguard, with their ESG demands, suddenly 30 years of lore saying that females cannot biologically cannot undergo Space Marine creation process

I'ma stop you right there. Custodes are not Space Marines. Lore about who can and cannot become a Space Marine has absolutely nothing to do with the Custodian Guard, the creation process for which is cellular, not additional organs, and customized to the recipient, so there's no lore reason why it couldn't be customized to a woman. If you're going to rant about the lore, at least do it properly.

[NeoVid]

I wonder if I would find 40k anywhere near as funny if I hadn't grown up appreciating things like Monty Python and Fawlty Towers. Red Dwarf. Allo Allo.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, that was a big one, actually.

Pretty unlikely. Someone who doesn't get BritWit could easily end up as one of those poor bastards who takes the shallowest possible face-value reading of the setting, and ends up saying things like "At this rate, the future's going to end up being like Star Trek! If you want our future to be more like the Imperium of Man, then you have to..."

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the source of that quote was not satire.

[Anonymouswizard]

As a friend of mine pointed out: if a Space Marines or Custodes was AFAB would you be able to tell? Definitely not when in battle gear, and outside of it their enhancements would make everybody look like a slab of muscle.

With Space Marines there's no need to do anything about it, they're just weapons of war. Heck, there's no reason Astartes would still have external genitals. But for Custodes it's possible that for the 'beat humanity can be' the Emperor cared to keep some gender signifiers.

Also back in Rogue Trader Custodes were baselines. It's irrelevant, but I found it interesting that originally the Emperor's closest companions weren't enhanced.

[Cheesegear]

suddenly 30 years of lore saying that females cannot biologically cannot undergo Space Marine creation process because the technology to do so even for males is barely understood, doesn't matter.

Okay. **** it. Let's say, next week GW says "Okay. That's cool."

Cawl has discovered how to turn females into Astartes (and Custodes). With the Great Rift open, Guilliman needs Cawl to figure out how to increase Astartes production rate by double digit percentage if they're going to defeat Chaos at this point. However, Cawl being Cawl, he already figured that he could increase Astartes production rate from anywhere from 25- to a full 100% if he could just get the XX-process working. So, true to form, Cawl actually started this project centuries ago without Guilliman's permission - Cawl has always been under the impression that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Especially if your project was actually successful. The leaps and bounds in technology made during the Rubicon project made this possible.

Furthermore. "No men under arms. Get it?" That's some cute bulls* right there. Guilliman sees through your asinine behavior. Guilliman has read Lorgar's book. While it galls Guilliman no end...Lorgar might have a point. Guilliman has seen Lorgar's point first-hand in the 42nd millenium. He's seen his own Space Marines fall under the Imperial Creed and many of his Space Marines are even under the thumb of Ecclesiarchy anyway - though they would deny it. Guilliman demands that the Ecclesiarchy either close the loophole and disband the Sororitas, or simply rewrite the Decree and become the Ecclesiarchy Militarum.

There's no retcons.
This is new, additional canon, that says "Cawl fixed it." and Guilliman says the Ecclesiarchy's "loophole" for Sororitas isn't cute anymore. Welcome to 11th Ed.

Now what?

a middle finger and the demand to bugger off if they don't like it while inviting in the noisy activists who collectively don't buy their products and don't care about the lore but just want another win in the ongoing culture wars.

And the people who are arguing against the creation of female Custodes (and by proxy, female Space Marines), have spent how much money between the end of 7th Ed. and now?

The good news is that now that they have a 'foot in the door' so to speak, this issue, however minor, is just the beginning.

The canon can burn for all I give a **** at this point.
All's that matters is the miniatures, and the game.

The miniatures are (mostly) great. But I concede that they're incredibly expensive for things that are designed using CAD.
The game is perfectly fine. 9th Ed. was...Bad. But 9th Ed. doesn't exist anymore so there's no problem.

There's going to be a lot more coming down the pipeline in years to come, and as we saw with Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who and a myriad other franchises, it'll do nothing but unite the fanbase and produce quality content /sarcasm.

Good. Quit 40K and take up carpentry. Plumbing. Horticulture. Join an amateur sports team.
9th Ed. and the pandemic taught me I don't need 40K, and it's quite arguable that I never did. If 40K burns; I'm fine with it. And I've been in the hobby for 28 years. I'll be happy to sell all my models if I want to. I have no stake in GW's bottom line. I don't care if the company falls apart.

The foot in the door was bringing back the Primarchs for no reason.
The foot in the door was Cawl being allowed to do anything he wants.

It's done.