Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Forum Explorer]

Anyone know what is terrible in Grey Knight circles currently? I've been trying to work on old small projects, and I found my tiny number of GKs and figured they'd be easy enough to finish and get some satisfaction from.

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Terminator Librarian (Staff)
Old Metal Castellan Crowe (could be any cool guy with a sword)

5 Terminators (3 Thunderhammers [Daemonhammers?], 2 Swords, 1 with Heavy Flamer [Incinerator?])

10 Teleport Marines (2 Hammers, 2 Rotary Guns, mostly paired Falchions)

9 Regular/Purifier Marines (1 Halberd, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 not!Heavy Bolters, mostly paired Falchions)
(Where did the 10th guy go?)

Rhino Chassis (TL Lascannon)

Rhino Chassis (TL Lascannon)

Venerable Dread (TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher)

Dreadnought (Fist and Multimelta)

Dreadnought (same)

And I'm pretty sure I have one of those Baby Carrier things somewhere, but cannot currently find it.

Is there anything obvious I'm missing from my collection that GKs really need? Anything I really shouldn't be using, or need to switch the equipment on? Is there a meaningful difference between Termies and Paladins, such that I might not want to use them interchangeably based solely on which stat block is more worth the points? Can you still use Inquisitors, and are they alright? I have a fairly cool Inquisitor guy I kit-bashed with epaulets, a feathered hat, and a Powerfist--could use a suggestion for what's in his other hand--but I don't know if he can still hang out with the GKs without breaking their subfaction combo bonuses or whatever.

Termies have objective secured, Paladins have...something. An extra attack I think, and some stratagem support? I'm not 100% sure.

Dreadknights (baby carriage things) are still widely considered the best unit for Grey Knights, so those are a definite must. Grey Knights also have a really good Psychic secondary which kinda requires you to take a bunch of small units so it is easy to do. So just some more infantry squads.

And yes, you can use Inquisitors with no penalties.

[Hootman]

The rules for Agents of the Imperium (including Inquisitors), in War Zone Octarius Book 1: Rising Tide, make them include-able (1 per Detachment) without taking up any slots - and without interfering at all with Detachment abilities, or army-wide restrictions (like Chapter Tactics).

Termies have objective secured, Paladins have...something. An extra attack I think, and some stratagem support? I'm not 100% sure.

Dreadknights (baby carriage things) are still widely considered the best unit for Grey Knights, so those are a definite must. Grey Knights also have a really good Psychic secondary which kinda requires you to take a bunch of small units so it is easy to do. So just some more infantry squads.

And yes, you can use Inquisitors with no penalties.

Awesome. Good to know that Inquisitors can still hang out with other books--it would be a shame to waste a hat as nice as that model's.

So, I just looked at the stat blocks for some of these guys, and...uh...what? All Grey Knights have at least THREE attacks per model? With "free" power weapons that shred almost all armor and deal 2 damage each? And Marines still get the +1 attack on the first round of combat, right? That's 21 attacks from a basic squad of 5 guys, killing an average of 7.78 enemy Marines if my math is right.

That's insane. You would need 47 Choppa Boyz to have the same impact as 5 Grey Knights.

Naturally, I built all my guys back when Falchions were good, but now Swords are the clear winner in any situation where D2 would be helpful (which, as we all know, is at least half of all factions). I...don't really want to go through the rigmarole of re-arming them, so...I guess I'll have to settle for "costs more, does less" or declare "counts-as" rules, if I ever field them. The same five-man squad kills 5.56 Marines instead, and is better against 1W models. This is fine. Just...didn't expect the difference to be so stark. A +50% effectiveness jump is huge.

[Forum Explorer]

Awesome. Good to know that Inquisitors can still hang out with other books--it would be a shame to waste a hat as nice as that model's.

So, I just looked at the stat blocks for some of these guys, and...uh...what? All Grey Knights have at least THREE attacks per model? With "free" power weapons that shred almost all armor and deal 2 damage each? And Marines still get the +1 attack on the first round of combat, right? That's 21 attacks from a basic squad of 5 guys, killing an average of 7.78 enemy Marines if my math is right.

That's insane. You would need 47 Choppa Boyz to have the same impact as 5 Grey Knights.

Naturally, I built all my guys back when Falchions were good, but now Swords are the clear winner in any situation where D2 would be helpful (which, as we all know, is at least half of all factions). I...don't really want to go through the rigmarole of re-arming them, so...I guess I'll have to settle for "costs more, does less" or declare "counts-as" rules, if I ever field them. The same five-man squad kills 5.56 Marines instead, and is better against 1W models. This is fine. Just...didn't expect the difference to be so stark. A +50% effectiveness jump is huge.

Double check that because I don't believe they do. They just got that +1 attack all the time, and thus the whole three attacks a model thing.

[lord_khaine]

So.. according to leaked rules. There now is a more invulnerable invulnerable safe.
Thats.. well its perhaps getting a touch silly?

[Wraith]

Is this related to the new Angron model? I can understand how a Daemon Primarch, arguably the most powerful single unit in the game, could have a rule that says No to Mortal Wounds, but on anything else.... eehh....

[Fergie0044]

Is this related to the new Angron model? I can understand how a Daemon Primarch, arguably the most powerful single unit in the game, could have a rule that says No to Mortal Wounds, but on anything else.... eehh....

New demons rumours. They're getting a new type of save, related to their armour save but immune to AP modifiers and will be different vs shooting or melee. Purposely not an invun save, presumably to make it not interact with various other abilities that affect invun saves, eg Death Hex. Just a baseless rumour atm though.

[9mm]

New demons rumours. They're getting a new type of save, related to their armour save but immune to AP modifiers and will be different vs shooting or melee. Purposely not an invun save, presumably to make it not interact with various other abilities that affect invun saves, eg Death Hex. Just a baseless rumour atm though.

I mean Nighhuant have ethereal saves that can't be modified; I can totally see that be ported over to 40k.

[Renegade Paladin]

Speaking of silly:

[Wraith]

No gauntlet is perfect, but I really enjoyed that one. Interesting selection of characters, reasonable use of rules... and they seem like fun guys

I have to ask though... What even is the point of a character like Abaddon? Playing against something that complicated, that ridiculous and just completely, inanely powerful can't possibly be fun.

[Forum Explorer]

No gauntlet is perfect, but I really enjoyed that one. Interesting selection of characters, reasonable use of rules... and they seem like fun guys

I have to ask though... What even is the point of a character like Abaddon? Playing against something that complicated, that ridiculous and just completely, inanely powerful can't possibly be fun.

Honestly, that Gauntlet gives the wrong impression about Abaddon. He's strong sure, and can certainly kill pretty much anything on the charge. But dealing 9 wounds in 3 phases is actually pretty easy.

Speaking of silly:

I haven't seen so many 4+ rolls made by a single person in a long time. Geeze, that Abbadon was averaging like three 6s every time he rolled to wound, and he made so many saves. He should've died back at the Slaanash Greater Demon.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.

[Mystic Muse]

So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.

Yeah, that sounds horrible. Especially considering some players' personalities.

[lord_khaine]

So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.

It does kinda seem like it defeats the purpose of it?
Bet its an idea cooked up by some GW event manager who has not figured out how introvert the average 40k player is xD

[Cheesegear]

So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.

Speaking as someone who has been to several doubles tournaments, because doubles tournaments generate more money...

The purpose of randomising your partner, either at the start of the tournament, or between rounds (eww...), is so that you can't necessarily build a synergistic list and then smash face the entire time. There are significant cons to such an idea. But if the main pro is that you prevent people from power-gaming, and that's all you care about, then job's a good'un.

It's what you do when your meta is completely ****ed...The idea being that hopefully the 'bottom half' of players can cancel out the 'top half' of players, and the whole thing should even out.

Unless the randomiser is so good it ends up pairing two power-gamers together regardless, and they smash face the entire time because the =RandBetween() said so.

[Wraith]

All I'm hearing is, "The best way to win is to build the most OP, broken list that you can, ignoring anything that your partner can or might do except to hope that they're doing the same thing".

I don't see how it fixes a meta - it just encourages the power gamers to be even more oppressively isolated, because the only thing they can rely on is making their list as OP as possible to carry a weaker partner. What else can you do, if you have no idea what synergy you have - or even IF your two armies can HAVE synergy - before each game?

And if you ARE the weaker partner... better Git Gud or else every bad dice roll and failed-by-a-1/4-inch-charge is going to be the fault of you and your crappy 'balanced' list. What? MY fault? Nonsense, I brought three Smashf***ers and optimised my objectives until the cards bled, it must be you and your stupid 'thematic list' dragging us down!

[Renegade Paladin]

I know I've told the story before, but I once played ringer partner to Matt Root, who was the ITC champion several years back, when his doubles partner got sick the night before. He was a super nice guy, and also dragged my 5x Leman Russ and a Techpriest list kicking and screaming to first place. He wasn't even playing a bleeding edge of the meta list; it was competently built Ork infantry, which as it happens pairs really well with Guard armor, which he couldn't possibly have planned.

[Cheesegear]

I don't see how it fixes a meta - it just encourages the power gamers to be even more oppressively isolated, because the only thing they can rely on is making their list as OP as possible to carry a weaker partner.

Sure. Potentially that implies that you're such a good player and/or have such a good army that you can carry a weak(er) partner. As far as I care, if there is a player or army that can do that, they deserve to win the tournament - because that's simply how good they are.

What? MY fault? Nonsense, I brought three Smashf***ers and optimised my objectives until the cards bled, it must be you and your stupid 'thematic list' dragging us down!

Speaking from experience...If you read the tournament packet, and that's the kind of thing that you believe, or would believe from reading such a stipulation...You aren't coming to the tournament.

The stipulation pre-weeds bad sportsmen from the tournament. Speaking from experience...A lot of people - and bad sportsmen - still turn up anyway.
...I think partly because they believe that they'll be randomly paired with someone good.

[LeSwordfish]

The fluff thread looks to be beyond the necro limit so i'll ask my fluff question here. Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists? Similar to the red helmet for heresy-era ultramarines, or the red hands for the Night Lords.

The latest White Dwarf has a fun story from it's heresy timeline, in which Inwit is besieged, and a group of Imperial Fists escape and head for help. Instead, they run into the Dark Angels, and the Lion instructs them that they work for him now, that Inwit will need to handle it's own problems, and that they're needed for his crusade against the Traitor homeworlds. As good servants of the imperium, obviously they agree. However, I'd like one of my characters in my 30K list to be someone who objected to this, and took a ship and left, in the hope of getting assistance. Obviously, Dorn would censure him for this.

What visual effect should i expect that to have? I believe Lysander was censured - would something have visually reflected that?

[Cheesegear]

Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists?

Not really. Punishments are private.
No-one should know that you're a failure. You know you're a failure, and that's all that matters.

What visual effect should i expect that to have?

Imperial Fists wear scrimshawed bones to represent that they have already atoned for a previous punishment...Usually the bones of their brothers that died due to their failure. But you wouldn't wear your Brother's bones to represent shame. The shame is in not taking your Brother's soul to battle. You wear your Brother's bones to battle to represent forgiveness or atonement. Or, you accept that even Space Marines are not omnipotent, and you accept that your Brother dying in the middle of the battle wasn't actually your fault, and you lay their bones to rest and forgive yourself... In that case there wouldn't be any visual cue - not for the self-imposed punishment, nor for the self-acceptance.

The Pain Glove is a non-invasive method of pain. Leaves no scars or marks.
Scrimshawing your own bones is extremely invasive and extremely painful. But no-one would really know what you carved into your own bones because a Space Marine would heal - which kind of indicates how hard scrimshawing into your own skeleton would even be for a Space Marine (and Marine-bones...Aren't bone; They're cement).

I believe Lysander was censured - would something have visually reflected that?

I don't believe so.

[LeSwordfish]

That all sounds fair, thanks. I knew Sigismund's punishment was private, but I wasn't sure if he was a special case.

I could look around for some bones to stick on the outside of his armour, or think of both my own way to display this censure and a reason why he would choose to wear it openly. I can see a certain type of marine being like "can you believe it, they punished me??", and wanting to wear that openly.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Assuming they're an officer and thus would have some leeway in their appearance, the easiest would probably be some kind of paint scheme change, maybe paint their helmet a different colour (say bone), invert their colours, or personal heraldry -say paint the shoulder pad black and the Fists icon yellow.

After that, maybe give them something like the Templars tabard, especially if no one else has one, or some other types of robes or a particular design of helmet (a skull form?). What about a Deathwatch blackshield shoulderpad with the chapter icon worked in as though the chains are over the top?

Or maybe they've chosen to have their hand replaced with a bionic.

[Wraith]

Not really. Punishments are private.
No-one should know that you're a failure. You know you're a failure, and that's all that matters.

That all sounds fair, thanks. I knew Sigismund's punishment was private, but I wasn't sure if he was a special case.

After the Council of Nikia, the Imperial Fists locked their Librarians away in a dungeon and told them to stay there. Bound to do so by duty, the Librarians said to Garro that the worst part of it wasn't that they were confined, but that they were away from the Crusade. They're not allowed to fight and to serve, even in their limited capacity as tactical Marines. It was, to paraphrase, their duty to endure the 'shame' of being inactive.

Similarly, Sigismund was informally demoted ("You are not my son") and sent off to face the first wave of the Solar War. Officially he was sent away from his Primarch's side, which is punishment enough, but reading between the lines I think he was expected to die on the front-line. He even considers it, a sort of "suicide-by-Sons of Horus" in The Solar War, but then decides that his duty requires him to keep living, and keep suffering his ignominy. Death would be the easy way out.

With that in mind, I would imagine that rather than wearing red gloves like the Night Lords, or a red helmet like the Ultramarines, a censured Imperial Fist might wear... nothing. Just yellow armour and the Fist sigil - he's not permitted to wear his own heraldry, or receive the blessing of purity seals, until he has atoned in full. Until he's made up for mistake, he loses all status and becomes a faceless man - for without honour, who are you, even?

How to show that on a mini? Maybe show silver marks where his service studs or laurels have been scratched off? Or paint him as specifically more battle-worn compared to his companions - he'll be allowed to paint his armour fresh when his punishment is complete, and until then he's only allowed basic repairs because he's not allowed to wear the honour of the full Fists regalia?

[lord_khaine]

and Marine-bones...Aren't bone; They're cement

This is in turn kinda dumb. Bones are amazingly resillient. A miracle of enginering.
Cement meanwhile is brittle. it dont flex. it break.

[Grim Portent]

Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.

Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.

[Artanis]

Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.

Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.

Ceramite is what Imperial armor is made from, so it's probably a heck of a lot stronger than bone.

[Saambell]

Ceramite is what Imperial armor is made from, so it's probably a heck of a lot stronger than bone.

Eldar use bones for armour, Marines use armour for bones. Seems about right.

[Cheesegear]

[Sigismund] even considers it, a sort of "suicide-by-Sons of Horus" in The Solar War, but then decides that his duty requires him to keep living, and keep suffering his ignominy. Death would be the easy way out.
[...]
for without honour, who are you, even?

Well yeah. Sigismund is still a 'Fist at the end of the day. One of the OGs. Sigismund can't die until he schools Abaddon on honour and duty. Are Sigismund's last words about the glory of the Emperor? Dying in faithful service? Doing Dorn proud?

'You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed.'

Defeating Abaddon in single combat would've been great. But making Abaddon stare at the wall and have an existential crisis, every time he thinks about him (and Abaddon thinks about Sigismund a lot)? That's a close second.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.

Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.

Let's go with no. Ceramics are brittle because they don't flex, stretch or compress like plastics or metals do - they're very strong, but once they go beyond that point, they'll break.

Plus for bone, you'd need to get blood into the internal structure to keep it alive, allow it to repair when damaged, fight any infections that happen to get in as a result of injury/damage, generate new blood cells in the long bone marrow and so on. You could make them solid, but at that point, you might as well just pull the bones out and replace them with some other material.

I'd personally go with a bioengineered "superbone" composite, with some metal wires inlaid during the initiates implantation processes. Add the black carapace (especially on the torso) and the marine's skin and musculature as padding, plus their armour when they're wearing it and you're about there.

Eldar use bones for armour, Marines use armour for bones. Seems about right.

Wraithbone is condensed warp matter, not skeletal remains.

[Wraith]

I'd personally go with a bioengineered "superbone" composite, with some metal wires inlaid during the initiates implantation processes. Add the black carapace (especially on the torso) and the marine's skin and musculature as padding, plus their armour when they're wearing it and you're about there.

Your version makes way more sense. But nonetheless, Space Marines' diets are laced with ceramic compounds, which are absorbed directly into their skeletal structure to make them stronger. I don't know WHY this is confirmed in the lore, but it is.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Since when has WH40K, science, reason, and good sense ever belonged in the same sentence (without appropriate negations)? If this is the thing you balk at....