Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Grim Portent]

Let's go with no. Ceramics are brittle because they don't flex, stretch or compress like plastics or metals do - they're very strong, but once they go beyond that point, they'll break.

So does the calcium compound found in bone. Dried bones snap very easily, most of the flex and compression found in living bones comes from the connective tissue found in them.

It's not a matter of 'ceramic shaped like a bone' vs bone, it's 'bones that use ceramic in addition to calcium for their inorganic component' vs bone. The bones still do all the stuff that bones are supposed to do and are formed of the same latticework of organic and inorganic material.

How the Ossmodula makes the body absorb ceramics is the part that really doesn't make sense, since it's a modification to the pituitary gland and the osteoblasts that make bones come from the bone marrow, so they should still be working entirely in calcium.

[Cheesegear]

I could look around for some bones to stick on the outside of his armour, or think of both my own way to display this censure and a reason why he would choose to wear it openly. I can see a certain type of marine being like "can you believe it, they punished me??", and wanting to wear that openly.

If this helps...

Spoiler: Deathwatch; Rites of Battle

Show

Many Imperial Fists bear small tokens of lost Battle-Brothers, engraving their bones with descriptions of their deeds so that they may never be forgotten and will live on forever. Ossific Relics take the form of small bones, normally finger or hand bones, carried in a small pouch near the Battle-Brother's heart, or sometimes on a chain around his neck or wrist. Far from grisly or barbaric, this practice is the ultimate act of remembrance for an Imperial Fist, and the relics of his fallen brethren are his most valued possessions.

---

The latest White Dwarf has a fun story from it's heresy timeline, in which Inwit is besieged, and a group of Imperial Fists escape and head for help. Instead, they run into the Dark Angels, and The Lion instructs them that they work for him now, that Inwit will need to handle it's own problems, and that they're needed for his crusade against the Traitor homeworlds. As good servants of the imperium, obviously they agree. However, I'd like one of my characters in my 30K list to be someone who objected to this, and took a ship and left, in the hope of getting assistance. Obviously, Dorn would censure him for this.

I gave this another once-over for context. Now, I haven't read the White Dwarf, but the way you explain it...The more I think about it...No.
Or at least I hope it doesn't go down as simply as this, and you're explaining it with too much brevity.

1. Your Homeworld is burning. Your Duty, is to get help, mostly so that your Brothers don't die.
2. You run into your Uncle - who is not your Dad, and definitely not your Granddad. Your Uncle not only refuses to help you, but also says your homeworld can burn - and by extension, your Brothers can die. Oh really?
3. Obviously (that word bothers me), you abandon your Duty to help your Uncle - again, your Uncle isn't your Dad.

...Oh hey, did you abandon your Brothers to go chasing after what you believe are Heretics?
That's ****ing what Sigismund did, and Dorn said 'You're not my son.' Holy **** WTFBBQ.
No.
No. Wrong.

Obviously (that's that word again) Dorn would censure every Marine who went with Lion (and probably denounce them as 'Crusaders', not 'Imperial Fists'), and the one Marine who came back would be praised - especially if he actually came back with help, and that that help (for thematic reasons, I like Space Wolves, but that depends on the timeframe of this event...Maybe Raven Guard or Salamanders works better), saved both the 'Fists and the inhabitants of Inwit - Dorn's people.

The Marine who came back, might consider every one of his Brothers who abandoned him, dead. He completed his Duty. He was sent for help. He brought help. ...But at what cost? I can almost see using a Chaplain-like model, or a Legion of the Damned model, if you've got one...So many of his Brothers are 'dead', his armour is all bones.

[LeSwordfish]

I definitely simplified a bit - however, I kind of see the point. Do you want to save Inwit or win the war? What are you expecting from Dorn, a detachment of troops taken away from defending Terra? What is the strategic value of rescuing Inwit, as opposed to cutting off the traitor resources?

[Cheesegear]

What is the strategic value of rescuing Inwit, as opposed to cutting off the traitor resources?

You've missed the critical flaw of Rogal Dorn, and the Imperial Fists as a whole; Family.

Would you save your Brother if it meant the Imperium burned? ...Yes.
If your Father told you to kill your Brother; What do? ...Have an existential crisis.

[LeSwordfish]

I am not entirely sure I agree with that interpretation, but I appreciate you know the Imperial Fists way more than me!

[lord_khaine]

Your version makes way more sense. But nonetheless, Space Marines' diets are laced with ceramic compounds, which are absorbed directly into their skeletal structure to make them stronger. I don't know WHY this is confirmed in the lore, but it is.

Clearly GW writes know even less about material science.
And generally just biology. Than their players.

[Artanis]

Clearly GW writes know even less about material science.
And generally just biology. Than their players.

Pretty much, yeah.

"Space marines have an organ that lets their bones absorb the space-mithril they eat" probably isn't even in the top 10 of the setting's list of Things With No Basis In Biology.

[Cheesegear]

I am not entirely sure I agree with that interpretation, but I appreciate you know the Imperial Fists way more than me!

I guess my points of contention are:

If you have Space Marines continuously and only doing 'the most strategically viable thing', they're no longer characters anymore. They're the kind of Marines that huge segments of the audience (including myself) have hated for decades. It's the flaws that make Space Marines interesting. It's why I'm (still) so upset about Kor'sarro; They had it. They had the arc in the palm of their hands...And they dropped it.

Imperial Fists are not Ultramarines, and they're even less, Dark Angels.

You, yourself mentioned that Sigismund got censured. Remember why? Remember what Dorn cares about?

One of the biggest problems with certain Chapters - especially the First and Second Founding - is that many venerate their Primarch and their Chapter, over the Emperor and the Imperium. The Imperial Fists are one of those Chapters - for better and worse. Albeit Imperial Fists care about their Primarch and their Brothers. This extends to Marines they've served with on the Deathwatch, and certainly to their Homeworlds.

Dorn absolutely sees a difference between 'Crusaders' and Imperial Fists. He gets it, sure; Traitors Bad, Emperor Good. He understands the thought process. But that ain't it, chief. Again, all's you have to do is look at what happened to Sigismund. 'You're not my son.'

As always, I hate that over the years, all the Space Marine Legions - and Chapters - have slowly simply morphed into the same Chapter. But of course you have to present Imperial Fists as 'Good Soldier Boys' because they're now on the box art for the Heresy.

[Blackhawk748]

If you have Space Marines continuously and only doing 'the most strategically viable thing'

And even that can be interesting, just so long as its at least somewhat unique to that group of Marines, because it can also be a flaw. They just constantly pick the best strategic action, which will probably involve just letting Guardsmen take stupid numbers of casualties while they go surgical strike things.

Yes, they are effective, but pretty much no one likes them.

[lord_khaine]

Alas.. it truely -is- the best tactic by far.
Space Marines are so expensive to train, that likely a thousand dead guardsman for a Marine living is a good trade.
Likely a hundred thousand dead guards are still an acceptable trade for a marine life? Or around there?
Since well.. guardsmen basically makes more of themselves if left alone for a while.

[Cheesegear]

And even that can be interesting, just so long as its at least somewhat unique to that group of Marines, because it can also be a flaw. They just constantly pick the best strategic action, which will probably involve just letting Guardsmen take stupid numbers of casualties while they go surgical strike things.

I've already read that story. Probably half a dozen times...At least.

Yes, they are effective, but pretty much no one likes them.

This is why people like the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves.

What if - and hear me out. What if...What if we were combat effective, and we didn't treat Guardsmen Humans-that-are-nice-to-us, like ****, because they're the backbone of the Imperium and without them, what are we even fighting for?

'All Space Marines are a*holes.'
No. Wrong. There are at least nine different Space Marine personalities. But nuance is hard. Just make all Space Marines order-following Ultramarines* and that way you don't have to think too hard.
*Then again, not even Uriel Ventris is an order-following Ultramarine - and he's an order-following Ultramarine!

[Blackhawk748]

I've already read that story. Probably half a dozen times...At least.

Agreed, it's only interesting if its actually somewhat unique. And no, this is not supposed to apply to the Ultramarines. They are Space Romans.

This is why people like the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves.

What if - and hear me out. What if...What if we were combat effective, and we didn't treat Guardsmen Humans-that-are-nice-to-us, like ****, because they're the backbone of the Imperium and without them, what are we even fighting for?

'All Space Marines are a*holes.'
No. Wrong. There are at least nine different Space Marine personalities. But nuance is hard. Just make all Space Marines order-following Ultramarines* and that way you don't have to think too hard.
*Then again, not even Uriel Ventris is an order-following Ultramarine - and he's an order-following Ultramarine!

I hate what the Ultramarines turned into. WE ARE ROMANS IN SPACE NOT RULES LAWYERING JACKASSES WHO SLAVISHLY FOLLOW A BOOK. The Codex is a big book of good tactical and logistical suggestions that are to be cherry picked.

Seriously, it's like I need Graham Mcneil and the writers of Space Marine to be the only ones allowed to write Ultramarines or something.

[Lord Torath]

Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?

In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly. I presume they got that from somewhere, but I'm not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).

[Artanis]

Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?

In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly. I presume they got that from somewhere, but I not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).

Relative to other IoM military forces, yes. I don't know a ton of details, but they do have a reputation for standing their ground to protect civvies when others have retreated.

[Dragonus45]

Relative to other IoM military forces, yes. I don't know a ton of details, but they do have a reputation for standing their ground to protect civvies when others have retreated.

If I remember correctly they are also the SM Chapter most in touch with the people who live on their home planet and maintain something that looks like a real social life amongst the people there.

[Blackhawk748]

Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?

In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly. I presume they got that from somewhere, but I'm not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).

I wanna say it was one of the Wars of Armageddon, but I could be misremembering. They stuck up for a bunch of Guardsmen and Civies and stayed back to help them get out of there.

[Eldan]

If I remember correctly they are also the SM Chapter most in touch with the people who live on their home planet and maintain something that looks like a real social life amongst the people there.

Yeah, with them, it's a thing that they occasionally go home and visit their families.

[lord_khaine]

Likely the only chapter thats still vaguely in touch with their former humanity.
Certainly the ones most in touch.

[Cheesegear]

[Salamanders are] Likely the only chapter thats still vaguely in touch with their former humanity.

Umm...No.
On one end of the scale you have Dark Angels who get mind-wiped during recruitment and have no connection at all to Humanity; On the other end you have Salamanders who still make a point to know who their family is, and spend time with them, even generations down the line. Somewhere in the middle you have Ultramarines who, as a Chapter, are integrated into the entire socio-political sphere of a full sector of space - again, like Salamanders, Ultramarines definitely know who their Family is. You have Blood Angels who make a point to know what Art is, because Art is Life, Art is Humanity.

Space Wolves did a thing after Armageddon II and went to bat against the Inquisition over it,
Imperial Fists makes sure Terra itself doesn't implode on itself,
etc.

Most Chapters don't separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point not to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine is. People think Superman is boring, after all.

But then again, I know that during the most popular time of 40K ever, Dark Angels were on the front cover, and Dark Angels seem to be the Space Marines everyone has in their head, when they think of a Space Marine;
Traitors Bad, Humans Dumb, Pragmatism 5 lyf, Lion for Emperor.

Certainly the ones most in touch.

Sure. But that's not the same as the above thing you said.

[tyckspoon]

But then again, I know that during the most popular time of 40K ever, Dark Angels were on the front cover, and Dark Angels seem to be the Space Marines everyone has in their head, when they think of a Space Marine;
Traitors Bad, Humans Dumb, Pragmatism 5 lyf, Lion for Emperor.

..but also all entirely overcorrecting for a Past Mistake that none of them personally made but still feel deep shame for and are convinced that Nobody Can Ever Find Out. Which is still pretty human, just in a less positive "We want to try to retain our connections to the people we came from" direction.

[Lord Torath]

Most Chapters don't separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point not to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine is. People think Superman is boring, after all.

Deathwatch: Rites of Battle (RPG, not table-top) says that most chapters have little to no contact with the people they come from (this is from the Build-Your-Own-Chapter chapter of the book). The options for connections to your recruitment population were all pretty minimal, and even the Direct Governance option was still pretty far removed. So at least someone at GW thinks they mostly ignore their roots. That, or their communication with Fantasy Flight Games was particularly terrible back then. Which is entirely possible.

Of course, they also talk about the selection processes frequently involving duels to the death, deadly journeys, and actual fights against full marines. And this is for 8-10 year olds.

Of course, the Dark Angels Deathwing Terminators get their color from a group of terminators that went back to their homeworld and discovered it was under the control of a relatively late-stage genestealer infestation, and they talked extensively about their personal histories before they became marines, as well as their duties as marines when discussing whether to take out the genestealers or call for an exterminatus. They even used both their Marine names and their 'native' names when talking about it.

Mutable canon, and all that.

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch: Rites of Battle (RPG, not table-top) says that most chapters have little to no contact with the people they come from (this is from the Build-Your-Own-Chapter chapter of the book). The options for connections to your recruitment population were all pretty minimal, and even the Direct Governance option was still pretty far removed. So at least someone at GW thinks they mostly ignore their roots.

Sure.
But none of that means that Marines remove themselves from Humanity, as a whole. It only means that they compartmentalise their own recruiting population, as a way to maintain the Death World survivors' mentality within their own population.

And it definitely doesn't mean that Marines remove the figurative Humanity, from themselves, either. Hell, one of the biggest lies in all of 40K is '...and they shall know no fear.' They absolutely show fear. Regularly. What they don't have, is thanatophobia. Now, you could argue that fear of death is part of what makes us human, and since Marines don't fear death, they aren't human...But that's a much, much larger conversation that I don't think belongs in this thread.

Separating yourselves from your recruitment population, doesn't mean that you wouldn't care if all of that population were to die in a flash. If a Marine Homeworld was glassed, and said Marine Chapter didn't care and just swept it under the rug...I would start a conversation just like this one, where I would complain that whoever the author is, doesn't know **** about Marines.

Even the Dark Angels had their homeworld destroyed...And they still wont let it go, ten thousand years later... And the Dark Angels don't care about anything.

[Forum Explorer]

Umm...No.
On one end of the scale you have Dark Angels who get mind-wiped during recruitment and have no connection at all to Humanity; On the other end you have Salamanders who still make a point to know who their family is, and spend time with them, even generations down the line. Somewhere in the middle you have Ultramarines who, as a Chapter, are integrated into the entire socio-political sphere of a full sector of space - again, like Salamanders, Ultramarines definitely know who their Family is. You have Blood Angels who make a point to know what Art is, because Art is Life, Art is Humanity.

Space Wolves did a thing after Armageddon II and went to bat against the Inquisition over it,
Imperial Fists makes sure Terra itself doesn't implode on itself,
etc.

Most Chapters don't separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point not to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine is. People think Superman is boring, after all.

But then again, I know that during the most popular time of 40K ever, Dark Angels were on the front cover, and Dark Angels seem to be the Space Marines everyone has in their head, when they think of a Space Marine;
Traitors Bad, Humans Dumb, Pragmatism 5 lyf, Lion for Emperor.

I find Space Marines boring because in nearly every (not all) story about Space Marines, I find the Space Marines to be the most boring part. I think they hit this perfect point of being just alien enough to lose out on what makes people interesting, and not alien enough to generate curiosity.

[lord_khaine]

Umm...No.

Uhn.. Yes.

And it definitely doesn't mean that Marines remove the figurative Humanity, from themselves, either. Hell, one of the biggest lies in all of 40K is '...and they shall know no fear.' They absolutely show fear. Regularly. What they don't have, is thanatophobia. Now, you could argue that fear of death is part of what makes us human, and since Marines don't fear death, they aren't human...But that's a much, much larger conversation that I don't think belongs in this thread.

Separating yourselves from your recruitment population, doesn't mean that you wouldn't care if all of that population were to die in a flash. If a Marine Homeworld was glassed, and said Marine Chapter didn't care and just swept it under the rug...I would start a conversation just like this one, where I would complain that whoever the author is, doesn't know **** about Marines.

See. Thats what im saying they do. Basically. Lore does of course change every time a new hack is allowed to write a GW book.
But in general, a space marine is a hypno-conditioned organic fighting robot. Who spend the majority of their awake hours training, praying, or maintaining their gear (kinda both).
When they are not out doing mass murder that is.

They spend perhaps 12 years? being human, and then x decades being turned into a space marine.
For a regular 100 year old space marine, being a human is at best a vague memory, and their interaction with actual humans are close to 0.
There are those who strike up friendships with humans yeah. But they are the extreme outliers.

But being detached from your humanity, and humanity in general, does at the same time not mean they wont care about a planet under their protection getting glassed.
But that can be from a myriad of other reasons. Pride. Duty. Obligation. The sheepherding dog can still care about the flock its protecting.

While.. Ultramarines are a bit of a weird case. Im uncertain about what i actually think about their connection.

[Wraith]

See. Thats what im saying they do. Basically. Lore does of course change every time a new hack is allowed to write a GW book.
But in general, a space marine is a hypno-conditioned organic fighting robot. Who spend the majority of their awake hours training, praying, or maintaining their gear (kinda both).
When they are not out doing mass murder that is.

I think this is more an issue between authors, rather than the characters.

For every dull, plodding, boltor-porn Space Marine, I can think of another with genuine pathos, or wonderfully nuanced charisma.

Sigismund remembers being an orphan who, aged 11, took others under his wing and beat people to death with an iron bar to protect them. The experience scarred him as much as it shaped his sense of honour and determination as an Astartes.

Nathaniel Garro isn't much different. He remembers growing up in Albion and what it was like before the Emperor, which is part of the reason as to why he stays loyal. Honour, loyalty and oaths aside, his childhood sucks and he doesn't want humanity to return to that.

In fact, the Heresy-era characters tend to be way better than their 40k equivalents in this regard. Saul Tarvitz, Serjanis, Uriel Ventris, Barabas Dantioch, Zahariel... They all have something going on apart from 'be a Space Marine'.

Then there's everyone written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden; Khârne, Argul Tal, Iskandar Khayon, Angron, Grimaldus... Hell, Talos comes across as the tiniest bit sympathetic when he remembers his horrific childhood and even his mother.

In at least three of those examples, the tragedy of the story comes from what was done to them to make them Space Marines, and what they lost in the process. So the characters are definitely there, it's just a matter of who is writing them, and what they're doing with them. No argument from me that Red Tithe is exactly like you describe above... But the cold horror is part of the theme, in that case.

[lord_khaine]

Well. Its just as much that my oppinion is shaped by the old codexes (back from when they actually had lore in them).
And less by the heresy books. That i have not read that many off.

So yes. I can understand why those authors turn their main characters more human than they should be.
Its to make them relateable, engaging people to read about. I also just dont think its that faithful to the source material.

[Wraith]

Genuine question, not at all meant as a 'gotcha!' moment or anything like that: At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP become the source material, or not?

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In an unrelated subject, has anyone seen any good conversions or kitbashes of Primaris Apothecaries? I have two painted up and ready to go for my new Dark Angels force (apart from the transfers, that's the last bit to do) but I need a Chief Apothecary, and I want it to be a bit more special.

I'm thinking of taking another robed Primaris character and swapping out the backpack and left arm for an Apothecary's, so that it looks similar to the two picture but with "more robes" and I'm stuck for inspiration. The Primaris Chaplain looks about right, but I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything a bit more... impressive? The alternative is that I decapitate a broken Primaris Mephiston that I have lying around, but I'm not sure I could do it justice.

[Brookshw]

Genuine question, not at all meant as a 'gotcha!' moment or anything like that: At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP become the source material, or not?

The point where a new edition comes out that contradicts the old It's turtles new editions, all the way down

[Callos_DeTerran]

So I recently started a 40k army, my first. And I'm kind of mulling over the lore and selection of faction for it and thought I would talk to people here about it. For the record, its a Chaos Knight army. And I'm waffling between a House Herpetrax force or a House Korvax force. I like what lore I've found in the codex about the both of them, but I'm wondering if there's any particularly cool stories about Chaos Knight houses. Or how people go about making stories for their armies, if they even do.

[DataNinja]

The fluff thread looks to be beyond the necro limit so i'll ask my fluff question here. Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists? Similar to the red helmet for heresy-era ultramarines, or the red hands for the Night Lords.

So, I'm dredging this back up, because I've been reading through my collection of books recently, and surprisingly a Deathwatch short story of all things ("Weaponsmith", in Deathwatch: Xeno Hunters) has somewhat of an answer. Those Imperial Fists who have been shamed paint a black line down the center of their helmets to represent it, until their penance has been paid. Though the source paints it as a self-inflicted thing, I can imagine it could also extend to censure.