Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[hamishspence]

The thing about Prospero Burns is that it tries to make clear that the Space Wolves don't have a wolf fetish.

When I look at the Grey Slayers masks:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/S...de-Pack-1-2018

I'd say they look far more "fetish" than the Mark VI ones.

The point of this "Helmet" series is Corvus helmets, and what kind of "spin" each Legion might put on them.

'Maybe like a half-helmet. Like the leather ones that already exist on the Grey Slayers. You could have like a helmet that protects their brain case, but you would leave their mouths and nose open, because Space Wolves' actually believe that their own senses are better that computer sensors. Also, if we leave their chins bare we can do beards.'

Space Marines frequently have to work in vacuum or in hazardous gas environments. Half-helmets exposing the chin just do not work in this context.

[Cheesegear]

Space Marines frequently have to work in vacuum or in hazardous gas environments. Half-helmets exposing the chin just do not work in this context.

Space Marines can breathe in a vacuum and in toxic environments. That's literally what the third lung is for.

Garro and Sigismund fight on the moon.

Furthermore; As opposed to completely bare heads like every set already has?

[hamishspence]

As opposed to completely bare heads like every set already has?

One bare head option - for the squad leader/army leader.

Space Marines can breathe in a vacuum and in toxic environments. That's literally what the third lung is for.

Vacuum is bad for a space marine. Yes, they can operate in it for a short time, but "fully enclosed" armour exists for a reason.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

It was the first fully enclosed power armour, with life-sustaining capabilities[1], making it suitable for combat on toxic alien planets and the depths of space.[8]

"Sculpting beards sounds like a lot of work. Go back to the wolf helmet and let's ____ this out in a weekend."

There are things to criticise about the laziness of the job done on this particular set, but "fully enclosed helmets" isn't one of them, and even "going back to the wolf helmet" isn't inherently wrong.

I'd say that what they should have done was "more difference for the leader than just topknot and gem" and "three types of "ordinary guy" helmet, not two, which are more different than just one gem".



But, for me, what they did with the White Scars set was lazier. More effort put in on the squad leader, but less effort put in on the 9 ordinary guys.

[Cheesegear]

"going back to the wolf helmet" isn't inherently wrong.

The ****tons of memes generated in just a few days, says you're wrong.

I'd say that what they should have done was "more difference for the leader than just topknot and gem" and "three types of "ordinary guy" helmet, not two, which are more different than just one gem".

I don't care about variance in helmets. There are so many ways to make squad leaders stand out that the helmet's physicality doesn't even make the Top 5.

More effort put in on the squad leader, but less effort put in on the 9 ordinary guys.

I don't care about helmet variance. I've been painting Marines for as long as I can remember. I have a full Company of Firstborn. 30/40K is a squad-based game. Making sure that each of your 50-100 guys is 'individual' and 'unique' just doesn't matter* (and I've come in Top 3 best painted at almost every tournament I've ever been to). When you're looking at ~60 guys on the table, are you honestly looking to make sure that each of them has an individual head?

*I was told that when I pointed out to the judges that every single one of my Deathwatch Marines had a different Chapter badge. The tournament judges said that they didn't even notice because they only look at the army as a whole, and at character models - and display boards. They judged my Guilliman and Telion more than all my Chapter badges combined.

I'm not a YouTuber where I convert and paint a single model for a single video that can last as passive income in perpetuity, and never look back. I did my one Wolf Model and that's all that matters. Having a Wolf Helm is fine because it's not next to more Wolf Helms. The Wolf Helm is standing next the Imperial Fist with the laurels and they look perfectly different enough when I line up my one dude from each Legion.

IMO. The White Scars' helmets are perfect, because they're for line troopers. They're not supposed to be individual or unique. And if you are looking for uniqueness in White Scars, you do exactly what they did; You paint the red lightning.

The Imperial Fists' and Dark Angels' helmets look great...But I don't really want to put them on line troopers. It looks odd. The Wolves' helmets...Are memes. Space Wolves are a meme again - and not the good kind. If you're a hobbyist, who wants to paint 10 guys, put them on your shelf, take a photo for the internet and never touch them again...Then you should also be furious with the Wolf Helmets, but for a different reason. 'Cause they look like arse.

[hamishspence]

IMO. The White Scars' helmets are perfect, because they're for line troopers. They're not supposed to be individual or unique. And if you are looking for uniqueness in White Scars, you do exactly what they did; You paint the red lightning.

The Imperial Fists' and Dark Angels' helmets look great...But I don't really want to put them on line troopers. It looks odd.

The way I see it - the packs should do the same job for all legions. Not "Line troopers for the White Scars, Veterans for everyone else."

[Cheesegear]

The way I see it - the packs should do the same job for all legions. Not "Line troopers for the White Scars, Veterans for everyone else."

In which case you want 9 generic heads and one leader head. And only the leader head matters.

In which case the White Scars are perfect, and it's everyone else who sucks? I can agree to that. But I don't quite think that's what you're going for.

[hamishspence]

In which case you want 9 generic heads and one leader head. And only the leader head matters.

In which case the White Scars are perfect, and it's everyone else who sucks? I can agree to that. But I don't quite think that's what you're going for.

When you're looking at ~60 guys on the table, are you honestly looking to make sure that each of them has an individual head?

The heads don't need to be perfectly individual (that's why it's 3 sets of 3 identical heads in each pack)

But there does need to be consistency in the amount of choice available.

Based on all the packs released prior to the White Scars, the idea seemed to be "these are a bit more ornate than regular mark VI helmets" - the sort of thing you would put on a Sergeant or in a veteran squad.

IMO the White Scars helmets should have been more like the Emperor's Children helmets in that respect. Different "airhole" variants. Different decorations on the top of the helmet.

Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors - all followed the formula, to the letter.

It was only the White Scars and the Space Wolves that broke it - by vastly reducing the amount which the 3 helmet variants differed from each other (White Scars) and reducing it to only two variants (Space Wolves).

[Cheesegear]

But there does need to be consistency in the amount of choice available.

Not really.

You could give me say, five Sergeant heads. All identical.
You say 'These are Sergeant heads. If you have five squads in your army, this is probably how many you'll need.', the helmet's physicality is irrelevant because the real hobby work is done during paint step and with wargear.

You then build all the rest of the Marines, as normal. Because line troopers aren't special and why would you individualise them?
(By which I mean spend time, money and effort on models that ultimately don't matter)

Oh wait that's how you 3D print. 3D printer go brrr.

Oh.

There it is. I've found the thing that's been bugging me. That's what's rubbing me the wrong way about 'upgrade packs' in 2022.

These are the sort of thing you could be 3D printing on your own; If you want 50 heads...Here's 50 heads.

[Destro_Yersul]

Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?

[hamishspence]

Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?

There's quite a few people on Bolter and Chainsword who seem to like them.

My main criticism of them isn't that they exist, or of the design (though the eyes, IMO, are a bit far apart compared to all the other helmets so far) it's that they only did two types for "ordinary guys" instead of 3 (and one Sergeant/Praetor version) - and that the sole difference between the two types, is a forehead gem.

"7 type A, 2 type B", for me, when every other pack has been "3 type A, 3 type B, 3 type C", just feels a little lazy.

But I direct the same accusation at the White Scars pack, which seems to me like

"3 type A, 3 type A with slightly different topknot, 3 type A with even less different topknot".

[Cheesegear]

Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?

Judging from the response online,
and my own anecdotal evidence at my local gaming store...

You're in the minority, at least.

[Blackhawk748]

I'd say they look far more "fetish" than the Mark VI ones.

The masks seem to be modeled after Spectacle Helms that are often found in the Nordic countries.

Spoiler: The Helm

Show

And those do cover a fairly large amount of the face. And I too agree that the SM need to distance themselves from the Wolfy Wolferson riding his Wolf Wagon on Wolf Night to Wolf at the Wolf Bar with Wolf Wolfertonian meme because, frankly, it was stupid beyond measure. USE OTHER NAMES FOR WOLF GW.

[Cheesegear]

USE OTHER NAMES FOR WOLF GW.

No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use Canis exactly once, and they blew it.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed, means Bear, FFS.
Murderfang isn't wolves...It is edgy, though.

Other Wolf Lords include Krakens and Dragons in their name. There are clearly other animals on Fenris.

Logan Grimnar...No wolves...Oh wait he got turned into a meme because they gave him wolves.

...Can you actually imagine if GW said that the Raven Guard ride Giant Ravens into battle? Because their spirit animal is ravens?

[hamishspence]

It wasn't till Horus Heresy, that we got the "Raven Guard have great big wings on their jump packs" thing.

Though to be fair, the designers may have been copying the Sanguinary Guard.

[Blackhawk748]

No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use Canis exactly once, and they blew it.

...right. I had repressed that. And of course, they need more Northmen names and things, because that's what the Space Wolves are. Northmen who like wolves. They also like big scary things that kill stuff.

Just, god why are they such a meme?

It wasn't till Horus Heresy, that we got the "Raven Guard have great big wings on their jump packs" thing.

Though to be fair, the designers may have been copying the Sanguinary Guard.

Wings on Jump Packs don't feel all that silly, largely because I could actually see them being used for stabilizers. So those are a bit easier to live with.

[hamishspence]

The one Heresy-era Blood Angel squad with jump packs done by Forgeworld (with Blood Angels having started the winged jump pack trend) doesn't have them.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/B...er-Cohort-2019

[Cheesegear]

Just, god why are they such a meme?

Like most things; You can trace it to 5th Ed. Which, surprisingly, was one of the dumb things that happened in 5th Ed. that wasn't Matt Ward's fault.

[Blackhawk748]

The one Heresy-era Blood Angel squad with jump packs done by Forgeworld (with Blood Angels having started the winged jump pack trend) doesn't have them.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/B...er-Cohort-2019

Weird. They look great though.

Like most things; You can trace it to 5th Ed. Which, surprisingly, was one of the dumb things that happened in 5th Ed. that wasn't Matt Ward's fault.

Oh I know it was 5th ed. And I believe it was Phil Kelly's fault, which is weird cuz they dude hadn't done that before. He wrote Orks and Eldar before that and neither one was a freaking meme.

[hamishspence]

Oh I know it was 5th ed. And I believe it was Phil Kelly's fault, which is weird cuz they dude hadn't done that before. He wrote Orks and Eldar before that and neither one was a freaking meme.

They weren't much better in 3e - there was a strong "rename everything Just Because" trend, as well as giving them tons of wolfy wargear rules.

Instead of "Iron Halo" - "Belt of Russ".
Instead of "Reductor" - "Fang of Morkai"
Instead of "Rosarius" - "Iron Wolf amulet"
Instead of "Sacred Standard" - "Wolf Totem"
Instead of "Holy relic" - "Wolf Helm of Russ".

"Wolf Pelt", "Wolf tail Talismans", "Wolf Tooth Necklace" - all these had special rules.

And all this was long before 5e.

[Cheesegear]

And all this was long before 5e.

Of course, before 5th Ed. is:
a) Before 40K was really popular, and
b) Before the internet was really even a real thing.

5th Ed. was Thunderwolf Cavalry memes. Wolf Wolfborn started the memes. Wolves on wolves wearing wolves, named Wolf, was the meme.

Before that, Space Wolves had Wulfen out of the Eye of Terror, and that was cool, and not a meme. We made fun of things in 4th Ed. I remember it. Space Wolves weren't one of the things we made of.

[Blackhawk748]

They weren't much better in 3e - there was a strong "rename everything Just Because" trend, as well as giving them tons of wolfy wargear rules.

Instead of "Iron Halo" - "Belt of Russ".
Instead of "Reductor" - "Fang of Morkai"
Instead of "Rosarius" - "Iron Wolf amulet"
Instead of "Sacred Standard" - "Wolf Totem"
Instead of "Holy relic" - "Wolf Helm of Russ".

"Wolf Pelt", "Wolf tail Talismans", "Wolf Tooth Necklace" - all these had special rules.

And all this was long before 5e.

Renaming basic equipment makes them "Special" not a meme. Like, I can see that it started before 5th, but that's not the ridiculous meme they turned into, that's them being "Special"

[hamishspence]

Of course, before 5th Ed. is:
a) Before 40K was really popular, and
b) Before the internet was really even a real thing.

I was seeing army-building guides, and sites dedicated to 40K homebrew rules and fanfiction, back in the late 90s.

[Cheesegear]

I was seeing army-building guides, and sites dedicated to 40K homebrew rules and fanfiction, back in the late 90s.

We all were. But you're talking pre- even MySpace days. I don't care about anything that happened before 5th Ed., because nothing before 5th Ed., matters.

[Wraith]

I'm late to this discussion, but I would like to add:

Space Marines can wear masks-without-helmets. In fact, some of them are encouraged to do so.

Additionally, their basic helmets come as two parts, with a third separate 'breather' section that fits underneath the armour itself. (2:40 ish in the video)

So there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't wear helmets-without-masks if they felt like it; what we think of as stupid is irrelevant to a Space Marine. They would even keep their adorable little pop-down eye lenses!

[LeSwordfish]

In fairness, Garro was totally wearing a helmet for the Lord Of The Flies fight, even if it was leaking. I believe Know No Fear makes a big deal out of how Guilleman needs primarch-level toughness to survive helmetless in hard vaccum. Or maybe that's just how long he was out there for?

[Wraith]

In fairness, Garro was totally wearing a helmet for the Lord Of The Flies fight, even if it was leaking. I believe Know No Fear makes a big deal out of how Guilleman needs primarch-level toughness to survive helmetless in hard vaccum. Or maybe that's just how long he was out there for?

I think the big deal was that Astartes can survive and kind-of operate in vacuum for ~30 minutes, or something like that? That's part of why Garro was struggling; it wasn't going to kill him right away but it was sapping his strength and making the fight way, way harder. Whereas Guilliman was out there, helmetless, in combat, for 3 hours or more and all he had to do was heal a few freeze-burns. He can absolutely stay out there for way longer under optimum circumstances.

[Drasius]

I'm just glad that the SW exist so all the *real* weirdos can be identified as soon as they unpack their army.

New Daemons though:




First save is for melee, second is for ranged and both are special Daemon Saves, which can't be modified, so, they're invulnerables that ignore "ignore invulnerable saves"

Str 5, T4, 2 attacks is a nice boost for bloodletters, and BS3 and a 3+ save against ranged is not too shabby for Pinkies. Will be interesting to see points though.

[Grim Portent]

Oh, neat, Bloodletters have their old S/T back.

[Eldan]

No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use Canis exactly once, and they blew it.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed, means Bear, FFS.
Murderfang isn't wolves...It is edgy, though.

Other Wolf Lords include Krakens and Dragons in their name. There are clearly other animals on Fenris.

Logan Grimnar...No wolves...Oh wait he got turned into a meme because they gave him wolves.

...Can you actually imagine if GW said that the Raven Guard ride Giant Ravens into battle? Because their spirit animal is ravens?

THIS.

FFS, they are space norse, they should have a lot more naming diversity than just wolves. Björn is a good start. But they absolutely should have Krakens, Dragons, Serpents, possibly Ravens, though those are already taken, foxes, owls, whales... heck, I'd take squirrel over more wolves, there's mythological precedent for that.

[LeSwordfish]

I assume part of the issue is that the heresy-era wolves had so much broader and less risible visual influences than All Wolves All The Time that people who chose them for the leather viking aesthetic now feel a bit cheated by a return to 40k's pure dog vibes. Especially given that it's the only option.