Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Destro_Yersul]

We all were. But you're talking pre- even MySpace days. I don't care about anything that happened before 5th Ed., because nothing before 5th Ed., matters.

Nonsense. Before 5th edition is the only thing that matters.

5th edition is when I quit the game, and it was 2008, internet 40k stuff was totally around. There wasn't as much of it, sure. It's kinda ludicrous to say the internet didn't exist in 2008, though.

[Cheesegear]

FFS, they are space norse, they should have a lot more naming diversity than just wolves. Björn is a good start. But they absolutely should have Krakens, Dragons, Serpents, possibly Ravens, though those are already taken, foxes, owls, whales... heck, I'd take squirrel over more wolves, there's mythological precedent for that.

Lexicanum has a great list of the fauna of Fenris; Notably Giants, Trolls, Krakens, Wyrms and Drakes...GIANTS. And TROLLS. WHAT!?

'Most of the planet's wildlife lives in the oceans, most of which are vicious sea creatures.'

Sure GW. Continue with the wolf fixation.

Spoiler: 'Member this guy?

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Spoiler: This is Him, Now.

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Feel old, yet? What happened to him? Where did all that wolf **** come from!?
I'll say it for the people playing at home; His name is Krom Dragongaze.

Spoiler: What a great model.

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[Grim Portent]

I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.

From their perspective the current Space Wolves are a bit too silly, mostly because of Grimar, but they are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*) and the issue is that they make the same joke too many times.


*Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort.

Spoiler: What a great model.

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And he's what, a sergeant? A captain? Just a random squad member with a power weapon?

Were it not for the fact that the primaris range doesn't have power weapon equivalents for basic troops I'd genuinely assume he was just a random dude with an axe if I saw him on the table. All the backpack frippery, cloaks and weird hats exist so that you can get a better idea for if a model is important** (as in not a generic guy with a fancy weapon) at a glance. Having regularly played with someone who couldn't move his own models after a certain point (wheelchair bound and with severely limited manual dexterity) being able to tell exactly who's who with minimal input is important.

Are wolf skull totems a bit of a silly way to do that, well yeah, but the space marines traditionally wear flags on their backpacks.


**And because sometimes the designers legit like the idea.

[hamishspence]

Or the Iron Hands, whose initiation ceremony involves chopping off one of their hands and replacing it with a metal one.

[Grim Portent]

Or the Iron Hands, whose initiation ceremony involves chopping off one of their hands and replacing it with a metal one.

To be fair, if they weren't space marines that wouldn't be unreasonable. 40K bionics are usually better than human meat, it's just that space marine meat is already on par with most bionics.

The Salamanders have killing a legit dragon on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.

[Lord Torath]

The Salamanders have killing a legit dragon on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.

Especially when you consider the aspirants are 8-10 years old.

[Grim Portent]

Indeed. Though it fits the Salamanders, given that their theme is ancient Greece + dragons. Feats of stupid heroism is their thing.



Warhammer Community has posted a photo of one of the new berzerkers that are coming out.

Honestly, it's kind of meh. Berzerkers have never been the most divergent looking of chaos marines, but I would have expected the first one they properly reveal to be a bit less vanilla. Pick one with a skull helmet or something. If anything it's less chaos influenced than the normal chaos marines, not a hint of organic growth anywhere I can see, so maybe that's going to be the vibe for new Khorne in general.

Also, I have never understood GWs obsession with plasma pistols. They are, and always have been, a garbage upgrade option for something like Berzerkers.

[hamishspence]

And he's what, a sergeant? A captain? Just a random squad member with a power weapon?.

Primaris Lieutenant (every company has two - junior to the Captain but senior to everyone else).

Regarding chapter-specific Mark VI sets, World Eaters now have one:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-horus-heresy/

Like the White Scars and Space Wolves ones, the variance is low - in this case, it seems to be confined to "3 have forehead skulls, the other 6 have forehead studs"

The page claims there are 5 helmet variants in that pack, not 4 (3 sets of 3, bare head, squad leader) - but the middle set look identical to the right-hand set - the only difference being that they have a painted-on (or transfer) WE symbol. It definitely doesn't look modelled on.

[Grim Portent]

I think the WE symbol is part of the helmet, it just looks flat because the one they copied and pasted for the package art turned out mediocre. Though given that it's FW I wouldn't be surprised if it's a detail so small and pointless that it barely shows up anyway.


I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy. Though I guess there's no good way to design a WE mk6 helmet without them, it's not like they can do the T-visor used by the mk3 crestless helmet.

EDIT: Thinking about it, they've made a weird choice with the marketing for these head packs. They've gone to the trouble of colouring them up, but then copy-pasting each variant with the same scheme rather than showing each variant in different colours, which makes them look less distinct even to a casual glance. Mix it up a bit, it catches the eye more, and it isn't like there aren't plenty of variant colour schemes to use.

[hamishspence]

I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy. Though I guess there's no good way to design a WE mk6 helmet without them, it's not like they can do the T-visor used by the mk3 crestless helmet.

Apparently it's not about being a veteran, it's about being unstable:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/World_Eaters

Caedere Remissum

Before the Horus Heresy, many of the World Eaters had adopted the snarling Sarum Pattern Helmet, though by the time of the Heresy, many of the XIIth Legion's warriors had begun modifying these distinctive helms with the twin mantles of the caedere remissum -- a dubious honour dating back to the gladiatorial traditions of the Primarch Angron's homeworld.

When a warrior was judged too unstable or damaged to fight anything other than death matches, they would wear the bladed horns of the remissum as a warning to their foes.

While Angron himself forbade them amongst his Veteran companies, many World Eaters still risked his wrath and eventually the more stylised mantles became synonymous with the warriors of the Khornate Berserker cults after the Primarch's ascension to daemonhood.

[Grim Portent]

Strange, because FW labels the MKII/MKIII variant as veteran heads, and the two out of control units are styled with no helmet in the case of Rampagers, or a helmet with no crests in the case of Red Butchers, so the Legion's culture was at odds with Angron there.

[hamishspence]

I do wonder how much of that is fanon.

From HH VI: Retribution (page 119):

The helm's distinctive 'cadaere renissum' side panels are a throwback to the fighting pits in which the Primarch Angron once fought, signifying a warrior whose sanity had been burned away by lust for battle. Such warriors were regarded as blessed, for they were cleansed of all cares other than war.

I could see Angron's initial ban on them, if it happened, as a "I don't want to be reminded of my days as a slave" thing.

[Grim Portent]

It wouldn't be the first time one of the legion's engaged in practices against the will of their primarch. A primarch's authority isn't absolute and they aren't present in every detachment of their forces.

The two notable ones that come to mind being the Iron Hands' self mutilation and that the psykers of the Death Guard would use their powers if they were sure Mortarion wouldn't find out.

With that in mind I imagine it's paraphrased from one of the HH books, but given the lack of proper citations it'd be a pain to try and check it.


Given the tone of the quote, it seems that the World Eaters adopted the crest as a sign of veterancy, while the original gladiatorial usage was to denote irrecoverable insanity, but then as the veterans became cultists of Khorne the crests were adopted by any and all World Eaters who joined the blood cults. So depending on when in the Heresy the legion got it's mkVI armour I suppose they idea could be that they were already well on their way into crazy cult behaviour.

[hamishspence]

So depending on when in the Heresy the legion got it's mkVI armour I suppose they idea could be that they were already well on their way into crazy cult behaviour.

Going by the Warhammer Community article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-power-armour/

Mark VI armour was first issued during the later stages of the Great Crusade, and it was in wide service by the time of the Horus Heresy. And while it may be most associated with sneaky forces such as the Raven Guard or the Alpha Legion, every Legion was issued with this mobile, relatively lightweight armour mark – even the Iron Warriors, who were well-known for their preference for heavier armour.

By the time of the Siege of Terra, the Loyalist Legions defending the Imperial Palace had whole Chapters equipped with Mark VI armour, while the Dark Mechanicum hacked the data vaults of those still loyal to the Emperor to provide the designs to Horus and his forces. With countless Forge Worlds under the control of the Warmaster, production of Mark VI armour continued apace, and the Emperor’s Children in particular used it en masse during the Siege of Terra.



it was issued to every chapter during the late stages of the Great Crusade.

And by the Siege of Terra, the Traitor forgeworlds had produced it in large amounts, with the Emperor's Children making use of it on an especially large scale.

So, Very Early Heresy/Late Crusade World Eaters, IMO, would have at least a few in Mark VI, which would be using "regular beakie helmets" and Late Heresy World Eaters could be making more use of the Sarum-style helmets with the side panels.

[Grim Portent]

Huh, wasn't the old fluff that mkVI was produced just before or during the Heresy by the loyalists, and distributed primarily to loyalist legions?

[hamishspence]

The old fluff also said that the Mark IV was the first suit with a helmet that could turn - but Forgeworld very quickly dumped that.

The HH Black Books suggested that the Raven Guard were the first of the loyalists to get it in any real quantity, slightly before the Heresy - and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.

[Grim Portent]

The old fluff also said that the Mark IV was the first suit with a helmet that could turn - but Forgeworld very quickly dumped that.

The HH Black Books suggested that the Raven Guard were the first of the loyalists to get it in any real quantity, slightly before the Heresy - and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.

TBF I can only think of two models that would imply that mkII/III couldn't turn their heads, the armour through the ages ones, so dumping that makes sense for multiple reasons, cross compatability with other stuff not least among them. I would consider it part and parcel of dumping 'Saturnine' terminator armour.

Dropping mkVI being extremely rare among the traitors feels weird to me. Partly because it's an iconic part of some loyalist legions to the point that beaky is practically synonymous with Ravenguard, and partly because the chaos marine range has never had any obvious mkVI elements but has had elements of the other armour types, even if only small ones like berzerkers having mkII helmets.

EDIT: Also, it begs the question of why mkV 'Heresy' pattern power armour has the name it does.

[hamishspence]

I've always thought of "long shinpads, no kneepads" as a Mark VI thing, and those have been pretty prevalent on Chaos marines since 2e.

Mark II, III, IV, and V armour all consistently had kneepads - especially when Forgeworld started doing them.

[Grim Portent]

True, the lack of kneepads is pretty unique. Think the only other suit that doesn't have them is Aegis, which itself draws on other suits including VI, and I doubt that would make it into many chaos marine arsenals.

[hamishspence]

The old Index Astartes White Dwarf articles sometimes showed "pre-heresy Traitor Legionary" sample pics with Corvus helmets - the aforementioned Alpha Legion - but also, the Word Bearers, and the Emperor's Children.

[Wraith]

- and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.

Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by being Raven Guard and keeping it afterwards.

[Grim Portent]

Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by being Raven Guard and keeping it afterwards.

I would imagine that if any traitor legion would be able to ambush and steal weapon and armour shipments it would be the Alpha Legion, so they could also just outright steal it when it's en route from forge world to legion detachment.

[hamishspence]

Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by being Raven Guard and keeping it afterwards.

I would imagine that if any traitor legion would be able to ambush and steal weapon and armour shipments it would be the Alpha Legion, so they could also just outright steal it when it's en route from forge world to legion detachment.

As portrayed in HH III: Extermination, it was a "they got incomplete schematics, extrapolated, and manufactured their own" thing.

Page 87:

These arrangements do not however account for the full scope of the Alpha Legion's extensive panoply of war, particularly their known acquisition of rare and specialised wargear notionally only manufactured by the armouries of certain Legions and never released to others, or not yet issued outside of closed prototype deployments.

A case in point is the evidence of the Alpha Legion's access to a version of Corvus pattern power armour, not then in general circulation, as early as the Dropsite Massacre and the 1st Battle of Paramar. Later battlefield recovery and analysis of this 'Corvus-Alpha' armour shows it in fact to be a unique variant likely developed separately from an early prototype of unknown manufacture. This suggests that the Alpha Legion may have acquired incomplete schematics by covert means early in the project's life and chosen to develop it on their own without recourse to the Mechanicum.

[Blackhawk748]

I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.

From their perspective the current Space Wolves are a bit too silly, mostly because of Grimar, but they are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*) and the issue is that they make the same joke too many times.


*Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort.

I own a pair of Gargoyles that are die cast. Same with my Hive Tyrant. That was like... 2004?

And yes, there are jokes if you look, but its supposed to be at least a little subtle. The reason Corax works is because Corvus actually sounds like a 40k name whereas Canis doesn't. Also his last name is incredibly on the nose which doesn't help.

[Corvus]

I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.

I've still got my copy of the old WH40K: Rogue Trader rulebook packed away somewhere. Must have had it for at least 30 years or more. The setting has changed a lot since those early days - and the rules were more RPG oriented.

[Cheesegear]

I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.

I remember the 'Jes Goodwin-Pose' models. I remember old metal/pewter models - I have them. I remember Jes Goodwin-pose models, in pewter. But I still have no desire to see their like ever again.

but [Space Wolves] are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*)

Yeah. The Horus Heresy series has been a laugh-a-page. Space Marines are so funny.

Like saying 'SPACE SHARKS!!!' as you spray the person in front of you with cheeto dust is funny.

...Then I read a novel about the Carcharadons, and it wasn't funny at all. Weird, that. Where did the jokes go?

Were it not for the fact that the primaris range doesn't have power weapon equivalents for basic troops I'd genuinely assume he was just a random dude with an axe if I saw him on the table.

You're right; They don't, so he isn't.

The Salamanders have killing a legit dragon on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.

OBJECTION!
...They kill Drakes.

I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy.

Similar to the Imperial Fists' heads; They don't really make for good line troopers. And I'm starting to think that it's intentional.

They got 'Raven Guard' armour by being Raven Guard and keeping it afterwards.

I've read Deliverance Lost. That's pretty much exactly how it happened.

And yes, there are jokes if you look, but its supposed to be at least a little subtle.

'30/40K is satire! There's meant to be jokes.'

...Kind of. Not really. Partial agree. Konrad Curze. The Nostromo. His ethos. I get it.

Corax being devastated at what he did to his own Legion during the Heresy (see; Deliverance Lost) and saying 'Nevermore.' as he flies into the Eye of Terror. I get it.

But it's not supposed to be ****ing stupid.
I give a pass to Necromunda and its materials. But that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Eldan]

*Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort..

Corvus Corax only wins in the silly naming contest over Iron Hand with the Iron Hand of the Iron Hands, on his flagship Fist of Iron because everyone making lists forgets about Ferrus Manus.

[Fergie0044]

'30/40K is satire! There's meant to be jokes.'

...Kind of. Not really. Partial agree. Konrad Curze. The Nostromo. His ethos. I get it.

Corax being devastated at what he did to his own Legion during the Heresy (see; Deliverance Lost) and saying 'Nevermore.' as he flies into the Eye of Terror. I get it.

But it's not supposed to be ****ing stupid.

Eh, 40k and it's lore is big enough to be both. Space marines can be big stupid unsubtle satire of fascism etc AND also brain washed child soldiers helping to prop up a decaying nightmare regime of suffering. They can be real people with real emotions, grappling with does the ends justify the means as they help nuke a planet to stop demons from eating ten more planets AND they can do so while being named Wolflord Wolfy McWolfson. All of this can be explored in the fluff and novels, different spokes for different folks and all that.

[Wraith]

Corvus Corax only wins in the silly naming contest over Iron Hand with the Iron Hand of the Iron Hands, on his flagship Fist of Iron because everyone making lists forgets about Ferrus Manus.

Wins? Nonsense.

Alpharius Omegon is named for the Alpha and the Omega, from the Greek alphabet meaning "First" and "Last".

His name means 'Mr. Firstname Lastname'.

Come to think of it, the only Primarch whose name isn't an obvious pun or silly reference is Perturabo, and that might just be because I've not worked it out.

[Eldan]

Perturabo: slight change of Perdurabo, meaning "I will endure". This was also the "secret" occult name of Aleister Crowley.

That kind of thing, I'd say, is not stupid, that's subtle enough to be awesome.

I think I'm less annoyed by really obvious references than overused ones. Like, if he were called something like Tiberius Ferreus instead of just Ferrus Manus, that would be considerably better.