Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Grim Portent]

Pretty sure that the Dark Angels are the Space Catholics. They wear the franciscan monk-style hoods, their Chaplains carry special rosaries, they're all atoning for 'sin' and the likes...



The Black Templars first Chapter Master was Sigismund, it's currently Helbrecht, and they have heroes with names like Amalric and Korneliusz. Culturally they're Teutonic/German, with 'Knights Templar' thinly spread on top.

If any of the Legions are Anglo-inspired, it's the Death Guard. Dour, miserable, a legacy of polluted cities from ages gone, they drink stuff that would probably kill other humans.... Oh, and Garro is from "Albion" to boot.

Different bits of Catholicism.

Blood Angels draw heavily on the art from Italy and Spain, both statues and paintings of saints, and their cups of Sanguinius' blood is loosely based on Communion and transubstantiation. Sangiunius himself is an overt metaphor for Christ, having martyred himself and possessing angelic features.

Dark Angels draw on monastic orders, cloistered knights, and more than a bit on conspiratorial tropes centered around the Knights Templar.

Black Templars are primarily Knights Hospitaller with Teutonic Knight names.

The medieval Catholic references are most prominent in the BTs and BAs in my opinion, with the prevalence of Maltese Crosses in the former and the saintly imagery of the latter.

[LeSwordfish]

I liked it enough as art, but also because of what else it alluded to in the lore.

The first is just how much stuff the Dark Angels seem to know, compared to other Chapters. Azrael finds out that he and Khârne are being manipulated by a Tzeentch Greater Daemon into mutually destroying each other, and he wins the day by calling the Daemon by it's True Name out of nowhere. It's pulled directly out of the author's butt, but in a way that I really liked.

"We've spent 10,000 years chasing after Dark Angels who fell to Chaos, searching through their illusions, pseudonyms and distractions to bring them to the Emperor's justice," He tells it. "Just think what else we found out about Chaos while we were doing that?"

That's amazing.

Secondly, Azrael's sense of humour. He not only snarks at a Guardswoman, but when he escapes the Space Hulk without killing or being killed by Khârne (spoilers, if you hadn't already noticed that neither character is currently dead) he leaves Khârne a gift (the bound Daemon who was trying to kill them both) as well as a 'calling card' so that Khârne knows it was him, and that he'll be back to settle the score another day.

My favourite version of Space Marines is the ones where they're not stuffy, "Arthurian Knights" speaking in archaic ren-faire accents. Usually you find that in the Horus Heresy books - Argul Tal and Khârne calling each other idiots - or at other times only when its Traitor Astartes talking to each other, like the First Claw of the Night Lords, or Khayon and Lheorvine from the Talon of Horus series. Azrael is one of the few Loyalists I've seen do it, and its especially fun because of his otherwise grim reputation and prestigious position.



It's possible, but I don't think it fits, really. Perturabo builds fortresses, is all about efficiency and exacting standards; he's notoriously rigid-minded, even the Iron Warriors are (by the standards of Astartes) boring and prone to being grim and faceless. Yeah, he's good at breaking down other fortresses, but he does it with precision and strict, careful planning - he's arguably the least chaotic of all the Chaos Primarchs. "Disorder" is the opposite of what he stands for... Which I guess is a theme of sorts?

Apparently its this. Based on Pedurabo, the pseudonym of occultist Aleister Crowley, which apparently means "I will endure to the end". You can see the Dure- of endure or durable.

[Renegade Paladin]

God, the Crusade mission pack is hot garbage. Sabotage has no counterplay at all. The action doesn't even fail if the unit doing it leaves the objective before the end of the turn; dude was using Swooping Hawks and just jumping in, starting the action, and then buggering off in the shooting phase, which doesn't make the action fail because Skyleap isn't a normal move. Even without that, there's no counterplay because the action is completed at the end of your turn and doesn't care if the other player controls the marker; that just adds in the insult of not even being able to shoot the unit after the deed is done.

[Forum Explorer]

God, the Crusade mission pack is hot garbage. Sabotage has no counterplay at all. The action doesn't even fail if the unit doing it leaves the objective before the end of the turn; dude was using Swooping Hawks and just jumping in, starting the action, and then buggering off in the shooting phase, which doesn't make the action fail because Skyleap isn't a normal move. Even without that, there's no counterplay because the action is completed at the end of your turn and doesn't care if the other player controls the marker; that just adds in the insult of not even being able to shoot the unit after the deed is done.

Unless Sabotage specifies otherwise, any and all actions fail if you move after beginning them, unless they complete before you move again. So if they are completed at the end of your turn then you can't do any sort of extra move after beginning an action. Not Battle Focus, Quicken, Fire and Fade, and not Skyleap.

[Renegade Paladin]

Unless Sabotage specifies otherwise, any and all actions fail if you move after beginning them, unless they complete before you move again. So if they are completed at the end of your turn then you can't do any sort of extra move after beginning an action. Not Battle Focus, Quicken, Fire and Fade, and not Skyleap.

The action rules don't actually say that. "If a unit is destroyed, makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, attempts to manifest a psychic power, declares a charge, performs a Heroic Intervention or makes any attacks with ranged weapons after it has started to perform an action but before that action is completed, that action is failed. Otherwise, that action is successfully completed." Battle Focus says it's a normal move, but Skyleap does not, and it's not any of the other things on the list either. He gave them the Crusade upgrade that lets them shoot while performing an action, so they'd jump in, start the action, shoot the crap out of whatever unit was right there in front of them trying to screen out the objective, and leave. While we're at it, you're also allowed to pile in and consolidate, so even without janky Eldar nonsense you can still move in some ways without failing.

[Renegade Paladin]

BBC radio covers the story of Warhammer's start.

[Wraith]

I believe that 'The Dice Men' is out this week - the biography of early Citadel Miniatures/Games Workshop from the early 1980's to the early 1990's. Likely it's a tie-in to that?

[Renegade Paladin]

The action rules don't actually say that. "If a unit is destroyed, makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, attempts to manifest a psychic power, declares a charge, performs a Heroic Intervention or makes any attacks with ranged weapons after it has started to perform an action but before that action is completed, that action is failed. Otherwise, that action is successfully completed." Battle Focus says it's a normal move, but Skyleap does not, and it's not any of the other things on the list either. He gave them the Crusade upgrade that lets them shoot while performing an action, so they'd jump in, start the action, shoot the crap out of whatever unit was right there in front of them trying to screen out the objective, and leave. While we're at it, you're also allowed to pile in and consolidate, so even without janky Eldar nonsense you can still move in some ways without failing.

So turns out it felt wrong because it is, but the reason is buried in the core book FAQ. Oh well.

[Forum Explorer]

So turns out it felt wrong because it is, but the reason is buried in the core book FAQ. Oh well.

Sorry, I mean to look it up for you, but the site was giving me problems and I promptly forgot about it.

[Lord Raziere]

just realized: Possible reason why Lorgar might've fell besides the reasons that usually get brought up that I've never seen talked about:

The Cult Mechanicus. The Emperor signed a treaty with them before he even got out of the solar system and some were worshipping him as the Omnissiah. by doing so he set a precedent that he could overlook even the religion thing if the people were strong and/or useful enough to the Imperium, so Lorgar probably would've noticed this and thought he could prove that his worship could be accepted like the Cult Mechanicus was by being useful enough or gaining enough followers and power that the Emperor couldn't afford to kill them all. that might be why Lorgar kept trying over a hundred years, because he saw this red-robed precedent for a religion being allowed everywhere because they were too vital for even the Emperor to tick off, so Lorgar thought if the tech priests can do it, why can't he? The Emperor's own hypocrisy ended up reinforcing they very effort he was trying to stifle.

[Drasius]

Oh how this thread has fallen from ye days of olde.

Votan release coming up about to be the most broken thing 40k has ever experienced and not a peep about it here.

Is it that this thread is dead, that people are just resigned to stuff being busted as sh*t on release and getting fixed down the track or is that just the new reality that you wait for your release to have your time in the sun and hope it lasts more than 5 minutes? There's no batreps anymore either, there's no discussion on unit breakdowns or the merits of taking unit x over unit y, and I can't remember the last time I saw lists posted here looking for advice.

What has happened to 40k?

[Lord Torath]

I blame Cheesegear. He got fed up with GW and decided he was done with 40k.

More seriously, I think it may have something to do with just how much truth there is in the Gamebreakors and Showsteelers video.

I personally have been done with GW's rules since about 1999 or so, so I'm mostly just here for the minis. It's interesting to see what's new, but I'm not committed to getting the Hot New Thing. The fluff discussions are interesting, but I've never read a 40k novel, and I'm not likely to. So I'm mostly just here as a 'filthy casual'.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, I'm buying Votann minis because I like the aesthetic. I haven't looked at and don't really care about their rules, because I've come to accept that the odds I even finish painting them before the rules change are functionally nil, and I don't have anyone to play with anyways.

[Wraith]

What has happened to 40k?

Perhaps ironically, I have been busy painting 40k miniatures. For the first time in about 8 years.

Just Primaris Dark Angels, nothing meta or even vaguely related to anything that has been released lately - 30k, Votann, whatever - but they're comparatively cheap and easy to get hold of.

That's pretty much it, to be honest. I don't have the money to look at the stuff that's come out for the last few months, even if I wanted to start yet another Space Marine army that I would get to play once per month, so I haven't bothered to keep up with it. And from what I can see, the meta has more or less frozen while everyone waits to see what the impact of Votaan is going to be.

Pretty hyped about the 40k-MtG crossover decks, though. I might get to play them more than once, and all 4 cost less than a single 40k boxed set so... easy choice?

[Lord Torath]

Pretty hyped about the 40k-MtG crossover decks, though. I might get to play them more than once, and all 4 cost less than a single 40k boxed set so... easy choice?

Wait, so GW is teaming up with WotC?

Should I be running for my survival bunker? You know, assuming I had a survival bunker...

[Forum Explorer]

Oh how this thread has fallen from ye days of olde.

Votan release coming up about to be the most broken thing 40k has ever experienced and not a peep about it here.

Is it that this thread is dead, that people are just resigned to stuff being busted as sh*t on release and getting fixed down the track or is that just the new reality that you wait for your release to have your time in the sun and hope it lasts more than 5 minutes? There's no batreps anymore either, there's no discussion on unit breakdowns or the merits of taking unit x over unit y, and I can't remember the last time I saw lists posted here looking for advice.

What has happened to 40k?

I mean, I still play, but the last few times I did batreps, there was no response, which really removes any motivation to actually do them. I don't really want any advice on my lists, and 9th edition has really been one broken thing after another since Drukhari was released, with GW taking a super long time to fix any problems. Honestly, while I am enjoying my games, I'm also pretty done with this edition, and either want a new edition or a fan made set of rules to be made and used instead.

Votann are so broken there is almost nothing to talk about. If they are allowed to be used with 3D printed models, cause half the range hasn't been released yet, than there won't be a tournament scene really. Hilariously that has created something worth talking about. Germany tournaments have reportedly just flat out banned the codex outright. I really hope NA follows suit along with, well pretty much everyone. Make a strong statement to GW about releasing broken things.

[Renegade Paladin]

Word is the Squats are getting competitively banned in Europe, though that might just be the WTC's no play without an FAQ policy. We'll see what happens post-FAQ/balance dataslate. Right now, though, their major weakness is slow speed and short range (relatively easily destroyed bikers aside), so a Guard leafblower artillery list might be able to put the hurt on them. I may get the opportunity to find out.

[LeSwordfish]

I've mostly been playing 30k recently, it's a super solid ruleset. I have had some Tau on my To Paint pile since release, so hope to get those painted up. The rate of change of the 40k ruleset is a bit annoying though.

[Destro_Yersul]

I mean, I still play, but the last few times I did batreps, there was no response, which really removes any motivation to actually do them. I don't really want any advice on my lists, and 9th edition has really been one broken thing after another since Drukhari was released, with GW taking a super long time to fix any problems. Honestly, while I am enjoying my games, I'm also pretty done with this edition, and either want a new edition or a fan made set of rules to be made and used instead.

I have good news for you and it's called One Page Rules

[Wraith]

Wait, so GW is teaming up with WotC?

Should I be running for my survival bunker? You know, assuming I had a survival bunker...

Just save time and burn your wallet right now.

Seriously though; We've criticised GW for their questionable licencing practices long before now - shoddy mobile games with pay-to-win garbage being the least of it, to say nothing of stuff that's just poor quality - but when they get it right, it's VERY right.

The "40k Universes Beyond" set might just be one of the highest quality things they have ever done with the IP, and I *might* even include Dark Heresy and WHFRP in that statement. I haven't played Magic in about 6 years, but I'm still planning on grabbing all 4 of the Commander Decks when they launch in about 2 and a half weeks.

[Drasius]

Word is the Squats are getting competitively banned in Europe, though that might just be the WTC's no play without an FAQ policy. We'll see what happens post-FAQ/balance dataslate. Right now, though, their major weakness is slow speed and short range (relatively easily destroyed bikers aside), so a Guard leafblower artillery list might be able to put the hurt on them. I may get the opportunity to find out.

[Renegade Paladin]

The source link doesn't work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co0x4WrV34c

[Easy e]

Things are moving so fast from GW, that it is almost impossible to keep up.

However, I have moved to many other rulesets, and still use my existing 40K models (some from 1st edition even!). You can go to the Wargame Vault and literally find 100's of sci-fi rule sets that are compatible with GW models. Many of them are free or very low cost for a PDF.

PM me if you want me to recommend some. :)

[Wraith]

"Votann Banned in Germany"

That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.

It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?

I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.

At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy".

I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?

[LeSwordfish]

Remember that right now the only Votann rules and models are the ones in the Limited Edition box. I think it's pretty standard for those rules to be disallowed until the book is available to everyone. I've also seen people specifically banning 3D Printed Votann models to avoid meta-chasers rocking up with rules and models that aren't out yet.

[Forum Explorer]

That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.

It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?

I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.

At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy".

I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?

I mean, it's very easy to enforce. You just reject lists that are using Voltan units. It's so easy you could write a computer program to do it for you.


And they did effectively do that back in 6th and 7th. It was called the ITC ruleset. Which took a different approach to the problem, instead tackling the base rules to make a better game rather than the offending codexes. But the ITC is a really big deal considering it is effectively using fan rules instead of official GW rules.

Also this is one of the few times they could actually ban it and it not screw people over. No one actually has Voltan armies yet. Which is the big difference. This isn't 'your favorite army is finally good', this is 'this brand new thing no one has completely breaks the game.' And it's very easy to tell. And it isn't just math hammer. The rules are out and people are testing them via proxies and like. And Voltan are insane. And much like Iron Hands last edition, they are just as bad as predicated. Which would be a case where the prediction was 100% correct.

[Wraith]

Remember that right now the only Votann rules and models are the ones in the Limited Edition box. I think it's pretty standard for those rules to be disallowed until the book is available to everyone. I've also seen people specifically banning 3D Printed Votann models to avoid meta-chasers rocking up with rules and models that aren't out yet.

Ah, that would be the context that I am missing. I thought it was referring to general release and that the whole thing was just "too good" and people were complaining about the codex as a whole.

In which case, fair enough, carry on.

[Drasius]

That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.

It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?

I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.

At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy".

I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?

Eldar were banned in a few places in 7th. Not country-wide, but if you go back and have a look, some places actually went through with the Eldar ban that many called for. It didn't last, but it was a thing.

Also, wait and see? Rubbish, this has happened time and time again. BA and GK in late 5th, Invis in 6th, Heldrakes in 6th, Tau in 6th, 2++ rerollable Daemons in 6th, Eldar in 6th, formations in 6th, IK (to a lesser degree) in 6th, 'Crons/decurion in 7th, Kraftworlds in 7th (10 point scatterlasers on jetbike troops being THE most egregious example and the one that immediately springs to mind), Free upgrades on everything in the Mechanicum decurion in 7th, Muhreens in 7th (with 700 points of free obsec transports), the list goes on and on and on for stuff that is/was obviously broken as sh*t.

I remember refusing to fight Eldar because there was no point unpacking my stuff just to pack it away again. I recall Cheese telling us the stories about a) the new kid who thought eldar looked cool and then nobody would play with them and b) the new kid who thought eldar looked cool and proceeded to stomp 10 year vets into the ground despite never having played a game before.

I personally remember posting on here about how scat-bikes were going to be busted as **** and literally ruin the game (in the competative sense) since the only thing that could stand up to Eldar, was other Eldar. Shock, horror, what happened for the next few months? Kraftworlds 4 dayz. 8 out of the top 10 being some form of Eldar in highly competative tournaments was the norm.

From the sounds of it, Votan are more broken than either 7th Ed Kraftworlds or 8th Ed Iron Hands, so it doesn't surprise me that anyone who can read says that they're going to be so monstrously strong that it's either ban them until they get a balance pass or just lose to Votan every game.

[LeSwordfish]

On the plus side, those balance passes do come pretty thick and fast now. Like I said, the rate of change is offputting for me, Joe Casual, but should help with a lot of issues at the comp end.

[Eldan]

Meh. I often feel like the last rules I clearly remembe were about 6th edition. Sometimes I still forget that tanks don't have facings anymore.

I just go to the shop every few months to pick up a cool monster to paint, I mostly play other games now. The few times when I play 40k, it's at my private club, with other neckbeards over 30, who have all been playing the same army composition for the last ten years.