Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Requizen]

I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.

Tabletop Simulator got a nice boost during COVID for that same reason, but I think TTS is freaking annoying to use and nowhere near a tabletop experience.

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

IP licensing is massive right now. Maybe Games Workshop will give theirs to a reasonable tabletop developer some day

Frost/Stargrave seems fun, but they seem more like RPGs meant to be played in campaigns more than pickup games, which I prefer. Which is also one of my main downsides to Blood Bowl - everybody wants to play leagues, when I just want to do pickup games with different teams and try strange setups.

[Forum Explorer]

One thing that's massively important to MCP and Legions that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.

Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
What's that?
Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...

Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
What's that?
Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

[Avaris]

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

Yeah… all that stuff about the Emperor and background that Cheesegear uses is interesting, but not essential to understanding the setting. It’s stuff you get to later. It’s like starting an explanation of Marvel with “ok, so there’s Iron Man, who was a billionaire and got kidnapped by a terrorist group claiming to be the Ten Rings. Hold up, the Ten Rings are a criminal organisation led by this guy with some powerful rings, but no one knows where they come from, as they’re not Eternals tech… so the Eternals are…”

One thing GW settings have really nailed is the ‘elevator pitch’ of the setting. That first paragraph of text you read. I haven’t really seen that with many other systems and settings, so the rise of stuff like MCP is interesting. Though without knowing anything much about the system, I assume it is not so easy to really feel like you’re playing with ‘my dudes’ as it is with GW characters: Iron Man is Iron Man, albeit with a choice of different suits he can be using. So similar niche, but GW etc offers stuff it doesn’t.

[Cheesegear]

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

The setting, sure. Now explain what each Faction is, their strengths and weaknesses, and what makes them fun to play and/or why the person you're talking to, would want to play them. When someone is trying to get into the game, what do you tell them? What can you tell them, without their eyes glazing over?

MCP is great for new players who don't know what they want, because all their homework is already done, because most (?) people watch movies. Most (?) people know what an Iron Man is, what a Captain America is, just by cultural osmosis. My Dad has probably seen less than a third of the Marvel movies. I know for a fact, however, that my Dad watched The Incredible Hulk ('78) with Bill Bixby, and read Hulk comics while he was in the Air Force - he showed me his collection (it's worth nothing, I checked). The run from the '70s even introduced Wolverine. So my Dad knows who he is, too, even without the Jackman movies.

If I walked my Dad down the MCP aisle at my FLGS, I know he would recognise several characters - from comics he read 50-60 years ago - and he would already know what they're about, without having to be told, and I'm pretty sure he'd even know what they'd be good at in the game, just via name recognition and visualisation alone. My Dad knows what a MODOK is. ...In fact...Do you reckon I could get my Dad to play MCP?
...Challenge accepted.

Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?

[Avaris]

Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?

Evil Space Pirate Elves and Religious Robot Scientists respectively. Neither of those are quite accurate (edit: and obviously this is harder than with MCP due to the current film run), but they get a lot of the message across. Warhammer itself isn’t especially culturally relevant (though some stuff like Space Marines are much more recognisable), but one of the strengths of the setting is that it plays on some very resonant tropes. I reckon you could probably describe most, if not all, of the factions in five words or less and give a fairly good idea of what they are like and how they are likely to play within that, just from resonance.

Edit: what is particularly important is that these come across in the models as well. If you showed someone a Drukhari model and an Ad Mech model they’d probably quickly have some idea of what the factions are about. Compare to, say, War Machine, where many of the Jacks are very similar looking to the untrained eye.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."

[Avaris]

There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."

Oh definitely. MCP is much more resonant than Warhammer in the present cultural moment. I’m more comparing it to the other games that don’t trade on an established IP.

[LeSwordfish]

I think you can give the gist of 40k in only a few sentences, but can you make someone love it? Because they probably already love Marvel/Star Wars before you've said a single word.

How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical turn-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.

Sounds like you're thinking in mechanics terms rather than "iron man is going to kick Venom's butt".

[Requizen]

How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical unit-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.

The person who knows what Wargaming is will understand "skirmish wargame", and the person who hasn't played one will understand the appeal of having their X-Men beat up my Sinister Six. Not that difficult imo.

[Cheesegear]

No, I just cannot imagine a "Marvel" game that is similar enough to an actual wargame to spark interest in someone who wants to play a wargame.

...Well. No. A Wargame is a wargame.

However, an elephant in the room right now is that people simply don't have a lot of money. Young players especially don't have any money, and new players don't want to spend a whole lot of money up front so they actually can walk away if they don't like the experience. The elephant in the room is that large-scale wargames aren't...Accessible? Especially GW is pay-to-play (but not pay-to-win).

Skirmish games, are where it's at; On GW's front, Kill Team 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.

[Cheesegear]

So it's not about the accessibility of Marvel fluff vs. GW fluff anymore? Because that was the initial argument.

First. Welcome to...Threads.

Second. If we're talking about accessibility, it's both. I can't make more than one point at a time? Oh, okay (again, welcome to threads).

1. Marvel is more accessible because pop-culture exists, and has existed for a long, long time, insofar as my Dad still remembers Marvel pop-culture from 60 years ago. Meanwhile, he's still calling every single Pokemon, a 'Pikachu.' Marvel pop-culture has permeated the mainstream so hard that it's easier for people to get into MCP because they're already familiar with the subject matter being displayed. Part of it is nearly a century's worth of comics. Part of it is roughly half a century of TV shows and cartoons. Part of it is almost two decades' worth of movies in recent memory. It's all of it.

'What's an AdMech? I don't understand. What's a Forge World? What has Mars got to do with anything.'

The player wanting to buy a Wolverine miniature isn't even going to ask you any questions because they already know who Wolverine is, and, mechanically, if you ask the new kid what they think Wolverine's role is in the game...I'm pretty sure they'll be able to tell you without hesitation; Melee fighter who is resistant to damage. Now, if you, as an individual can't identify Venom (who has been around for a long, long time...Including in two very successful - by pandemic standards, at least - recent movies), that might be on you. When Eminem is doing the theme song, the property is probably mainstream.

There are some people who claim - unironically - that Marvel (and DC) Comics are essentially 'modern mythology.' That's how important they've become.

Games Workshop's IP is both its strongest and weakest selling point.

2. Games Workshop products are also inaccessible for another reason; The cost, both up front and ongoing. This is a separate point, but not unrelated. It's tied to accessibility. Which is what the above, also is. People don't want to buy a ****load of miniatures for a game they might not even like. It's a lot easier if you ease the new player into it, and tell them that they don't have to spend a lot of money.

The price of the hobby is a detriment to the IP.

I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I don't understand and/or just seems weird to me - that's GW.
I am, however, willing to spend some money I understand quite well - that's MCP. 'Member Rocket Raccoon? I like when he said the funny thing and was cute.

See? It's all connected.

[Requizen]

On GW's front, Kill Team 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.

Kill Team's rules aren't bad, they're probably the most solid they've been compared to the last two editions. The main issue is how those rules get out, in standard GW fashion.

Rulebook is expensive, and doesn't have any factions in it. Compendium is expensive, and getting replaced as months go by. Not only replaced, but power crept, so while you can play Compendium vs Compendium with good balance, good luck playing most Compendium teams into Kommandos. New teams are new, so require new minis, defeating one of the best parts of Kill Team, which was just using the minis you have.

TBH they nailed Skirmish with Warcry outside of some balance issues and weak campaign rules. They took the good stuff and put it into Kill Team... then immediately put it behind a very toxic business model. Because, well, GW.

On another note, I played some One Page Rules yesterday for the first time in person, specifically Age of Fantasy Skirmish. It's basically Warcry, slightly different, but free. While it lacks some of the depth, it's still fast and fun. Their Sci Fi skirmish game would be great for those KT minis I have kicking around once they inevitably run it into the ground with power creep and 700 expansions.

[Renegade Paladin]

In case it matters to anyone, I inquired with GW about their new event support program and how it affects doubles and team tournaments. The answer I got is that they only care about the number of people in a tournament, so 32 people qualify no matter how many are on a team, and each member of a winning team gets a publication code.

[FireJustice]

Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.

Ok, I'm stealing this
Stage 6 of grief is 3D printing.

[Dragonus45]

Ok, I'm stealing this
Stage 6 of grief is 3D printing.

Oh damn that was the thread title right there

[Cheesegear]

Stage 6 of Grief is 3D Printing.

You did it. That's the one. That's genius.

[elros]

The people I know who play WH 40k like the modeling aspect of the game even more than the gameplay. MCP has appeal, but not as much opportunity for customization.

[zlefin]

How interesting is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days? I haven't ever really played, and only had a hand-me-down rule book from the late 80's or early 90's that I used to read. I remember that one had a really fancy and complicated set of point-based rules for building your army. I read the free rules for the current edition and it seems like there's a lot less customization and options for building your army.

I don't have a playgroup these days; and even in general I often find I spend more time reading about some games than playing them. Like in DnD I've read the books and made characters far more than I've played.

I wouldn't ofc plan to buy anything; it's more about how interesting it'd be if I found the books in a library or something.

[LeSwordfish]

The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.

[Renegade Paladin]

The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.

Have they, though? Not only are there a multitude of detachment types as opposed to the One Force Org Chart to Rule Them All, but the number of units has ballooned, especially in the Marines codex but also in that there are multiple new armies since then.

[LeSwordfish]

I guess? I'm thinking if the various little customisation doodads like auspexes and meltabombs, the greater level of flexibility of equipment on heroes, that kind of thing. Been writing heresy and necromunda lists recently which have really spoiled me for choice.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh in wargear yes, absolutely. That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though. New GW hates kitbashing.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh in wargear yes, absolutely. That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though. New GW hates kitbashing.

And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.

Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.

[Renegade Paladin]

And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.

Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.

That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.

[Cheesegear]

How interesting is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days?

I hope I understand your question right; Not very.

9th Ed. disincentivises you for taking multiple Detachments.
9th Ed. incentivises you for taking a mono-Faction.
Nachmund made mono-Sub-Faction mandatory.

Specialist Detachments were a fun ride in 8th Ed., but they went away. For some reason they didn't catch on on GW's end.

Secondary Objectives are not like Maelstrom; You pick the best Objectives for you, and design your army around those Objectives - and no, I don't have that backwards. You don't design your army for you, then pick the best Secondary for that army. I know what I'm trying to say. I'll make it clear.

Wrong. Choose an army that you like, and use Secondaries that you think would suit that army.
Right. Choose Secondaries you like, and build an army that you think would suit those Objectives.

When you know what you want your army to do, before you build it, it's much easier (less interesting?) to build, because you already know what you want.

One of the upsetting things of 9th Ed., is that part of the win conditions of the game rely on what you do, not what your opponent does. Like, it's irrelevant whether your opponent is there or not there because you score some VPs just for existing. *shrug*

[Renegade Paladin]

Got a tournament coming up, and being the stubbornly independent TO that I am, I'm mixing it up a bit and rewriting one of my old missions to the Nachmund GT standard.

Spoiler: Take and Hold

Show

Game Knight Classic - Strike Force
TAKE AND HOLD

Mission Briefing
We must secure a landing zone close to the front for our heavy landers. Seize the area and hold it until relieved.

Primary Objectives
This mission has two primary objectives.

Take and Hold
Progressive Objective

Several strategic locations have been identified in your vicinity. You are ordered to assault these positions and hold them at any cost.

At the end of each player’s Command phase, the player whose turn it is scores 4 victory points for each of the following conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points):

• They control one or more objective markers.
• They control two or more objective markers.
• They control more objective markers than their opponent controls.

This primary objective cannot be scored during the first battle round. In the fifth battle round, the player who has the second turn does not score any victory points at the end of their Command phase, but instead, at the end of their turn, they score 4 victory points for each of the above conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points).

Secure LZ

The landing zone must be clear of the enemy.

At the end of each player’s turn, the player whose turn it is scores 2 victory points if they satisfy one of the following conditions, or 3 victory points if they satisfy both of the following conditions.

• They control two of the objective markers in no man’s land
• They control at least one of the objective markers in no man’s land and the objective marker in their opponent’s deployment zone.

Anything obviously wrong? I just kind of threw together the second primary loosely along the lines of others in the book.

[hamishspence]

That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.

The Grandmaster is less "add new parts" and more "Reposition existing parts" (with the sword pointed down instead of up).

The Autarch updated datasheet was done because the cover art Autarch was illegal as written, as were the finecast Autarch models. It's still not got nearly as many options as the 7e Autarch datasheet (no dual-wielding guns for example), but at least now, if you have one of the finecast autarchs, you can use it, and you can mix and match between the two plastic Autarchs.

[Wraith]

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff.

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ugh. Compiling the tournament pack now. The secondary objectives bloat in Nachmund has ballooned it from six pages to ten.

[Destro_Yersul]

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff.

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

Same boat. I looked at that and was like 'whelp, there goes my money.'