Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, same applies to New Models. The avatar's never been very good, if they're deliberately making things broken to drive sales why isn't the new Avatar the hottest **** imaginable? Did their marketing imply that every competitive Eldar player has twenty Shining Spears in their cupboard?

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

[LeSwordfish]

You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

don't be silly, nobody buys a model unless evil GW has tricked them into thinking it's the only way to win games. and then they whisk it away like lucy with the football, after a whole three weeks of selling voidweavers by the bucketload

[Eldan]

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.

[Saambell]

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

I cheated when it comes to the Avatar model. I skipped the proper Eldar one, and stole the statue off the Alter of Blood from the Witch Elves in Fantasy. I have zero clue if its even the right size, but its very much the right shape, even if its stance is odd being a t-pose rather then dynamic action. And hey, if its bigger, no one will blame me for using the wrong model. Though, my eldar collection is tiny, and very much needs expanding on if I'm ever to play with them beyond a 500 point game. On that front, i guess the trick now is where do I go with my collection? I have:

Spoiler: Small Eldar collecton

Show

Far seer on foot with spear
Farseer on jetbike with spear
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers, Exarchs with double guns
2 Wave Serpents with shiruken cannons, and swappable turret guns between scatter lasers and bright lances
a Vyper with bright lance
7 wind runners with twin catapults, 3 wind runners with cannons, and 2 windrunners with scatter lasers
wraithlord with sword and shiruken cannons
wraithlord with just sword
Avatar of Khaine

I guess the obvious pick is grabbing a pile of guardians as they will give me the needed 3 troops, and can babysit the foot far seer. Maybe 2 blocks of guardians, one for the avatar and one for the far seer, but obviously put them close together to stack buffs. But this is of course assuming I will have a chance to play soonish, and if I don't feel like boosting up my Necrons or something else. After reading The Infinite and the Divine, I'm kind of in the mood for Necrons.

EDIT: Also, the Avatar of Khaine very much isn't the biggest model an Eldar player can put on the table. Checkout the Wraithknight, which is near titan size, or at least Imperial Knight sized. And for some, I must point out it is not the same thing as a Wraithlord.

[Eldan]

Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.

[Blackhawk748]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

Guardians were fine in 7th, Rangers were good in 8th with stacking penalties to hit and Dark Reapers were stupidly good in 7th.

Can't comment on the rest.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

[LeSwordfish]

Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.

On the contrast, I know someone trying to set up the new one as the Avatar in a Daughters of Khaine army, which might be challenging since officially it should be on like a 40mm base

[Forum Explorer]

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

I think he's asking are they amazing right now, since they got new models. You know, good rules = sales.

And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, Shroud Runners lack Core, and Shining Spears are good but are pretty in line with how they are before the codex. The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.

[Hootman]

I generally find that only Completely New models are OP on launch day. Updates of older models are allowed to often just be Fine For Casuals, because their purpose is to bait in legacy players who either have a bunch of old pewter or always wanted That Army, but were turned off by the age of the models they liked. Not that they complain about new blood, obviously.

Completely New things (like the Squig Boss, or the Wurr Tower mega-chariot thing) are more commonly over-tuned, because if word gets out that they are Lame-Sauce before the initial printing sells out, GW will be left holding the bag. And that's terrible.

[Cheesegear]

And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, [...] The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.

Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.

There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed dramatically; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.

Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them amazing, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'

Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.

New models aren't really anything; New units are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.

There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed dramatically; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.

Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them amazing, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'

Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.

New models aren't really anything; New units are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.

Shroud Runners then. They aren't exactly bad, but since they lack Core, they can't really be called all that strong either. If they had the Ranger keyword they'd have a few more uses with the ranger secondary, but they don't, so they don't. I know it's early yet, but no one has really been talking about Shroud Runners, or has been using them in tournaments.

[LCP]

I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.

It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.

[Eldan]

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

Hah. I do. I've been playing an Alaitoc Rangers army since about third edition. Only rangers as core troops, supported by mostly tanks and war walkers, small handful of aspect warriors. I lost so many games.

Then suddenly, they got competent in 8th edition. It was confusing.

[LeSwordfish]

It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.

Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs. It's a perfect system.

[Wraith]

I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.

It makes a certain amount of sense. The new units are OP and their aura of FOMO draws people to start a new army, but the new sculpts are mostly for units which are Core (so you HAVE to buy them at some point) or are in other FOC slots that you'd be mad to not to fill (Dark Reapers in Heavy, for example).

New units draw people to start the army, and then they have to buy in to the other stuff to play with regardless of whether its good or not. If you already own Guardians, GW doesn't care - they already have your money, and its the new generation of whales that they want to ensnare.

But that's getting into cartoonishly evil levels of forward planning, and I don't think that GW is either that evil or that competent. They decide to have a new release, so they make new models for it - it's Pavlovian at this point. Ring the 'new release' bell, commission new sculpts.

[Cheesegear]

Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. [...] It's a perfect system.

It's a perfect straw man, yes.

If the new units are b0rked and overtuned, as we have seen them to be, we get the hype train, we get the buzz, and then we have Eliminators sold out regularly for three months. We have Terminators sold out for...Ever? We have it on good authority at this point, that Matt Ward was right; Rules do in fact, sell models. Goonhammer says reviews - including their own - of units and Codecies influence what people buy. I know personally, from this very forum, that *I* have influenced what people have bought.

Therefore

If you know that to be the case, if you know that rules sell models, and your goal is to sell models, isn't it? Then it is very much in your interest to...Make good rules for units that people don't already own. We have seen this cycle again and again and again...Basically since 6th Ed.

Whatever is good now, gets nerfed.
Whatever is bad now, gets buffed.

This has been largely true for...Well, like I said, since at least 6th Ed. Hell, League of Legends does it. Almost any long-life game you can think of, does it. The buff/nerf cycle drives sales. You have to replace the stuff that sucks now, with the stuff that's good, if you want to keep playing. At the very end of that road lies annual updates; 'You know that version of the game you like? It doesn't work now. Please buy again with all of our fixes.'

'There is no malice involved. It's just business. That's capitalism, baby!' - a GW apologist, probably.

If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs.

You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.

If the old units that were bad, that you don't have (because they're bad), are made good, they're scheming geniuses.
If new units are bad-on-release, they're incompetent boobs (Don't nerf them until after two months or so...At least)

The goal is to sell models. Even the ones you have sitting in a warehouse for 8 years.

Old units are good all the time; As above, Terminators (and Centurions) kicked nine kinds of arse in 8th Ed. Terminators had not been seen since 5th Ed., and the regular ones without Storm Shields hadn't been seen since...Ever?

What I said, was...

Nah. GW just makes whatever-you-don't-have, good

That can - and does - include many, many, many units that can trace their lineage all the way back to 2nd Ed.

I'm pretty sure you can trace any Faction's lineage, and what's good in any edition for a respective Faction is unlikely to be consecutive; Eldar/Craftworlds/Aeldari, is both a topical and great example.

EDIT:
I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.

Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
GW: What if we nerfed them?
Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
GW: Nerf them again.
Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
GW: Heavy Intercessors?
Me: ...There it is.
GW: They're Troops, too. lol.
Me: They sure are.
GW: We made Scouts Elites, so now you have no Troops.
Me: I get it. Buy Heavy Intercessors.

[LCP]

You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.

or LeSwordfish just knows how to use 'were' in the second conditional.

Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...

[Cheesegear]

Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...

Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.

GW is stupid for overtuning their new units,
GW is stupid for turning customers away when they nerf the things the customers already own,
GW is stupid for raising prices on old kits they've already made money on,
etc.

But then again, I think going full capitalism on a luxury product during times of inflation with a rapidly developing consumer-level, affordable technology taking the textiles world by storm, hot on your heels, is very, very silly. No malice needs to be involved. Just a lot of desperate people making a lot of bad decisions that make consumers mad.

[LeSwordfish]

Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.

Hey, I'm not the one who doesn't know what "were" means

EDIT: and more seriously, you literally read the sentence and said "you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative" instead of "you're wrong".

[Forum Explorer]

EDIT:
I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.

Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
GW: What if we nerfed them?
Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
GW: Nerf them again.
Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
GW: Heavy Intercessors?
Me: ...There it is.
GW: They're Troops, too. lol.
Me: They sure are.
GW: We made Scouts Elites, so now you have no Troops.
Me: I get it. Buy Heavy Intercessors.

It was me! And yes, I do have Vypers. Three of them. A unit that has been good for a while that I just don't have (or want) is Night Spinners. I just don't like playing Craftworlds as a stand back and shoot army.

But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.

[9mm]

But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.

the thing about Primaris is they weren't supposed to be additions, but the line refresh; but because the Space Marine line was already a bloated mess that wasn't feasible. So more bloat to the massively over bloated faction.

Of course the whole counterpoint to the "always deliberately overpower the new stuff" is every once in awhile you get warscolls like the crossboos.

[Renegade Paladin]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business.

[lord_khaine]

I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.

Those are hilarious. I got two. One on a original square base xD
And fair. Well i guess taste differ. Though i think its hard to deny that for a long time the Avatar was one of the most complex models in the Eldar army.
It seemed clear it was intended as a centerpiece unit.

[Clistenes]

I have a question for the loremasters:

I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...

I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting.

What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?

[LeSwordfish]

Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.

[Fergie0044]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business.

I'm in the same position for Death Guard. Unfortunately GW's plan seems to be to nerf the entire army into the ground to force me to collect/buy another faction. (30% win rate this weekend according to Goonhammer, woohoo!)

[The Patterner]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business.

Currently working on a Death korps army using nothing from forge world but instead the kill team models and... other options...

Yes I'm a masochist for starting a third guard army, especially considering the current rules...

Spank me harder daddy GW.

EDIT: If they decide to make sentinels really good my old Tallarn army will become an absolute beast...

[Clistenes]

Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.

Thank you, but I was thinking of tabletop stats: How would they measure as units in a game?