Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Grim Portent]

I have a question for the loremasters:

I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...

I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting.

What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?

Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.

I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.

I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.

Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.

In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in Dark Heresy, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in Black Crusade but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

[Clistenes]

Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.

I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.

I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.

Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.

In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in Dark Heresy, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in Black Crusade but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

Thank you very much!

[lord_khaine]

but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

Well yeah. Maries are just argumented humans themselves.
The big thing about them is mostly that its possible to mass produce them.

[Renegade Paladin]

Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized. Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it.

[9mm]

Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized. Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it.

It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.

[Renegade Paladin]

It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.

None so far, but not all the lists are in yet. Because I delayed the errata cutoff hoping they'd release it (and am off on Friday) I pushed back the list due date to Friday at noon, so we'll see.

[lord_khaine]

It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?

[Fergie0044]

Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/...avourite-army/

I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

[LeSwordfish]

The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.

[Fergie0044]

The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.

Very true, I shouldn't place so much blind faith in the early goonhammer review.

[9mm]

Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/...avourite-army/

I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

I feel sorry for Ork players though, but overall this is a laugh riot.

[Cheesegear]

So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

No. You can't...Hey. Wait a second... That's my line!

[Forum Explorer]

It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

[Blackhawk748]

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.

[Renegade Paladin]

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.

[Forum Explorer]

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.

Oh, yep. You are correct. I guess he was talking about pre-nerf Harlequins then.

[lord_khaine]

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.

Unless im a future psychic!

I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.

I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!

[Blackhawk748]

I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!

Someone listed it here and I went a bit insane. Probably because of all the AoE 2 I've been watching where something like that would be nuked by the community within moments. Hell, Civs with 57% overall winrates get sideeyed.

[Renegade Paladin]

Welp, the 9 Voidweaver list adjusted down to 1500 points got submitted this morning. Ladies and gentlemen, we have our winner.

[lord_khaine]

Is it still a vinner?
As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.

[Renegade Paladin]

Is it still a vinner?
As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.

The balance dataslate didn't make the errata cutoff. 90 point Voidweavers get one last hurrah, and someone's taking it.

[lord_khaine]

Welp.. no i see.
Still.. if i had just bought 9 void weavers? you could be dam sure i would use the chance to use them.

[Renegade Paladin]

In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them. They'll just have to cut out some things. What made Harlequins so very busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with.

[Blackhawk748]

In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them. They'll just have to cut out some things. What made Harlequins so very busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with.

And now they just don't have that 300. Which may be enough.

Maybe.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well as I said, I'm running a 1500 point tournament and dude still took nine, so they can squeeze them in even down 500 points. I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.

[lord_khaine]

I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.

Sounds like it will be a.. circus

[Artanis]

Sounds like it will be a.. circus

Possibly even a Clown Fiesta.

[Renegade Paladin]

Harlequins dumpstered everybody, with Crusher Stampede and Custodes in second and third, so no surprises. A beautifully painted Ultramarines army took both best painted and the wooden spoon. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes up next month with the dataslate and new Tyranids codex.

[lord_khaine]

So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood.

So Tyranids the new Harlequins?

[Forum Explorer]

So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood.

So Tyranids the new Harlequins?

Custodes got slammed hard. Losing Objective Secured on so much stuff, and their go to stratagems got a lot worse too.

Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.