Mystic Muse's Mostly Mildly Mediocre Random Banter #238

[Mystic Muse]

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[Rater202]

Random pop culture trivia: May Parker, Spider-Man's famed Aunt May, briefly worked as Howard the Duck's secretary.

[Bartmanhomer]

Random pop culture trivia: May Parker, Spider-Man's famed Aunt May, briefly worked as Howard the Duck's secretary.

Cool. I didn't know that.

[Fyraltari]

*Breaks staff*

The thread is dead! Long live the thread!

[LaZodiac]

Random pop culture trivia: May Parker, Spider-Man's famed Aunt May, briefly worked as Howard the Duck's secretary.

Ah, that'd explain why she was able to deal with the Chameleon so effectively. She's dealt with ****ing weirdos before.

I think that by "spirit" you mean structure or shape? Because a ship doesn't have a "spirit".

Yeah what Keltest says below. I do not mean the structure or shape, because that is a material aspect. It is the spirit of the matter. The Argo will always be the Argo, even as they replace pieces of it over the years. Because it's The Argo.

I assume by spirit Zodi means something like "the significance we as people put to the idea of the thing rather than any intrinsic property of the physical materials."

Yeah, that.

[Keltest]

Ahhh, new thread smell.


Anyway, im with Zodi. The building blocks of a thing aren't what makes it that thing.

[Rater202]

Ah, that'd explain why she was able to deal with the Chameleon so effectively. She's dealt with ****ing weirdos before.

Actually, that happened before May worked for Howard.

When May doesn't have health issues, like she did in Peter's earlier years, she's just kind of a badass.

[Tvtyrant]

Ahhh, new thread smell.


Anyway, im with Zodi. The building blocks of a thing aren't what makes it that thing.

In agreement here. Physically people aren't even objects, they are processes. Everything that makes something alive is a series of unbalanced chemical equations, including thinking.

If you change the process you change the person, which is why anti-depressants and dieting work. A chemical that changed all the processes that make a person would make a different person more then changing the parts (which are interchangeable at the molecular level.)

[Rater202]

In agreement here. Physically people aren't even objects, they are processes. Everything that makes something alive is a series of unbalanced chemical equations, including thinking.

If you change the process you change the person, which is why anti-depressants and dieting work. A chemical that changed all the processes that make a person would make a different person more then changing the parts (which are interchangeable at the molecular level.)

You're assuming that the Serum changes everything instead of just what needs to be repaired or altered. If it changed everything than everyone who ever got the serum would look and act exactly the same.

[Keltest]

You're assuming that the Serum changes everything instead of just what needs to be repaired or altered. If it changed everything than everyone who ever got the serum would look and act exactly the same.

DNA isnt like legos either. You cant just magically take one bit out, put in the part you want, then have it come out how you intend. Its all one unit. You change the DNA, you change everything. Every cell, everything controlled by DNA.

Plenty of these changes wont be obvious, or indeed meaningful. But they will be there.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah what Keltest says below. I do not mean the structure or shape, because that is a material aspect. It is the spirit of the matter.

I don't understand what you mean by "spirit".

The Argo will always be the Argo, even as they replace pieces of it over the years. Because it's The Argo.

Yeah, because you're preserving the structure of the assemblage of things we call The Argo. Also, why are talking about Jason's ship, now?

I assume by spirit Zodi means something like "the significance we as people put to the idea of the thing rather than any intrinsic property of the physical materials."

So, identity by consensus, then? If so we could end up with situations where someone convinces a lot of people that this other ship over there is actually Theseus's ship, even though Theseus never set foot on it, and if enough people believes him, it'd become "Theseus's ship"? That seems wrong.

[Keltest]

I mean, if their belief is based on the idea that it is a ship that Theseus used then sure, theyre "wrong", but if its identified as the Ship of Theseus by people, then thats what it is, even if the basis for that identification is wildly misunderstood.

What's in a name, etcetera etcetera. The idea of the ship as a singular unit doesnt have any basis in physics or chemistry or anything, its purely a construct of the human mind. If the ship gets some salt or bird poop on it, that salt or poop isnt part of the ship because we said it isnt, whereas the paint is part of the ship because we said it is.

If it sounds arbitrary, thats because it kind of is. It's based on what we want to think of it as, not some intrinsic property of it that will exist regardless of us.


Heck, heres another example: Sue the dinosaur. Her identity as "Sue" is not something she had while alive, it was given to her strictly by people. The living entity that was the dinosaur no longer exists. But we still call her Sue, because thats what we think of her as.

[Rater202]

DNA isnt like legos either. You cant just magically take one bit out, put in the part you want, then have it come out how you intend. Its all one unit

....you seem to have forgotten that we're talking about a work of comic book science that may in fact be literal magic.

The only effect the serum has on the mind, the memories, the emotions, the experiences, the decisions... The part of the person that is you is that it's running on better hardware. You think better, process information better, and form memories better going foreward but everything you were, psychologically and emotionally, before taking the serum is preserved. If anything, you'll be more yourself going forward because the improved software means that your mind won't degrade any further than it already has.

And thus. The processes related to thought, memory, emotion, and so on... are all either unchanged, or changed in ways that do not sacrifice the previous self.

[Keltest]

Rater, I don't think you have a very firm grasp of the implications of upgrading a brain to run on "better hardware." Making somebody smarter, think faster, have better reflexes, these are all fundamental parts of your being and personality. You can't just "upgrade " someone with no changes like that.

[Tvtyrant]

You're assuming that the Serum changes everything instead of just what needs to be repaired or altered. If it changed everything than everyone who ever got the serum would look and act exactly the same.

Not even remotely. When you go on a run your personality gets happier, stress effects you less. When you don't eat you get snappish and hangry. These things are true for every life form, but we don't pretend that the change in chemical function makes us all identical.

If you and I did steroids together we would have different outcomes, they would still be fundamentally altering who we are. As long as it leaves the memories alone there is going to be variation in the output because the experience is the only essential thing to a person.

Life is essentially inessential. The two most stable components are memory and DNA, both of which get modified, corrupted and lost over time.

[DataNinja]

I don't know about any of you, but now I just want to play with some Lego.

...I might still have a set hiding around here somewhere.

[Keltest]

I don't know about any of you, but now I just want to play with some Lego.

...I might still have a set hiding around here somewhere.

I have a collection of mini figure parts by my computer I build and change. Usually to be my latest d&d or WoW character.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't know about any of you, but now I just want to play with some Lego.

...I might still have a set hiding around here somewhere.

I have a super star destroyer that needs reconstructing if you have a weekend to burn.

[Rater202]

The two most stable components are memory and DNA, both of which get modified, corrupted and lost over time.

And memory, the part that's important to your fundamental identity, is permenantly preserved from the moment you take the serum going forward. Unless you suffer critical brain damage or someone deliberately tampers with your memory, you'll never forget anything ever again and any memories you from from getting the serum onward will be accurate. (memories you already have won't degrade any more than they already have.)

Were talking about something from a comic book. The comic book is pretty clear that Steve is fundamentally the same person with or without the Serum as is everyone who got the serum or a stable attempt at recreating the serum.

You can't argue with the source material and say that it's wrong.

[DataNinja]

I have a super star destroyer that needs reconstructing if you have a weekend to burn.

Oof. My condolences. Lego is just never as fun to reconstruct as it is to build the first time.

[LaZodiac]

I don't understand what you mean by "spirit".

Yeah, because you're preserving the structure of the assemblage of things we call The Argo. Also, why are talking about Jason's ship, now?

So, identity by consensus, then? If so we could end up with situations where someone convinces a lot of people that this other ship over there is actually Theseus's ship, even though Theseus never set foot on it, and if enough people believes him, it'd become "Theseus's ship"? That seems wrong.

In Japan there is the Kinkaku-Ji, the Temple of the Golden Pavilion. It has stood for centuries. It has also been burned down around two to three times. Even though it's been rebuilt, it is still the Kinkaku-Ji, because it is still the building.

I'll admit I searched for "what is the name of Theseus' ship" and got given the name Argo so that's my bad.

Identity by consensus is part of it, yeah. If you did do that, that'd be pretty manipulative... but then, look at all the people who claim to have the bones of such and such saint. This is something humanity does a lot, and it isn't necessarily wrong to do it. Charlatan's do it all the time, but so do people who are doing it for perfectly reasonable reasons (like with the Kinkaku-Ji).

So yeah, I think it's the intent of the people.

[Peelee]

If you feel like doing it, go ahead.

I had the inclination but not the time. The tragedy of the commons work. Well, one of the tragedies, at least.

I have a super star destroyer that needs reconstructing if you have a weekend to burn.

SUPER STAR DESTROYER, YA SAY?

Oof. My condolences. Lego is just never as fun to reconstruct as it is to build the first time.

Smash completely and start from scratch?

Also, why are talking about Jason's ship, now?

Because Jason had the good grace to name his ship.

[halfeye]

DNA isnt like legos either. You cant just magically take one bit out, put in the part you want, then have it come out how you intend. Its all one unit. You change the DNA, you change everything. Every cell, everything controlled by DNA.

It's worse than that, you have to make the same changes to the DNA in every cell. It's all spaghetti coded too, which makes it horrible to work out what effect any one change has.

[Form]

It's worse than that, you have to make the same changes to the DNA in every cell. It's all spaghetti coded too, which makes it horrible to work out what effect any one change has.

*groan* As a software developer I know what this is like.

[Fyraltari]

In Japan there is the Kinkaku-Ji, the Temple of the Golden Pavilion. It has stood for centuries. It has also been burned down around two to three times. Even though it's been rebuilt, it is still the Kinkaku-Ji, because it is still the building.

And do you think that the fact they rebuilt it exactly like it was is not the important part?
I'm still not clear what you mean by the thing's spirit.

Is it a religion thing?

I'll admit I searched for "what is the name of Theseus' ship" and got given the name Argo so that's my bad.

Identity by consensus is part of it, yeah. If you did do that, that'd be pretty manipulative... but then, look at all the people who claim to have the bones of such and such saint. This is something humanity does a lot, and it isn't necessarily wrong to do it.

Except that if someone in 2, 000 gets my femur and claims it was Albert Einstein's, no matter how many people believe it and call it "Einstein's femur", that bone was never inside Einstein's body, which is what these people are saying by calling it that. There are just a lot of people who are wrong. And if it is possible for the consensus to be wrong about the identity of a thing, then identity is not decided by consensus.

Because Jason had the good grace to name his ship.

Technically, the shipwright, Argo, named it.

Real creative fella, that Argo.

[Murk]

When you go on a run your personality gets happier, stress effects you less.

I'm so jealous of people who feel better after (or during) a run, rather than worse.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm so jealous of people who feel better after (or during) a run, rather than worse.

It takes a while. I usually find it takes three weeks before I start getting a real high off any form of exercise, and if you go without for a month you lose it. Dieting is the same thing, I have to be devote for no gain for a month before it becomes easier and enjoyable.

And then I get hit by a car again.

[Form]

And do you think that the fact they rebuilt it exactly like it was is not the important part?
I'm still not clear what you mean by the thing's spirit.

Is it a religion thing?

I'm not familiar with this particular building, but I'm guessing it represent a Thing. The building is not the Thing, but just represents the Thing. A Thing being an important concept, collection of culture/religious values, an ideal or something else that's important but is not a physical object itself. That the rebuilt Kinkaku-Ji looks exactly the same as the old one and is presumably built in the exact same place helps connect the new Kinkaku-Ji to what the old Kinkaku-Ji represents, but is not necessary. In principle, you could build an entirely different structure in a completely different place and have that be the Kinkaku-Ji just as long as it represents the same Thing. The meaning people assign to the Kinkaku-Ji makes it the Kinkaku-Ji, not the physical structure.

But building in the same place and in the same shape helps a lot to make that connection.

That's my take on it, anyway.

[Peelee]

Technically, the shipwright, Argo, named it.

Real creative fella, that Argo.

Because Jason had the good sense to get a named ship.

[Rater202]

For what it's worth, whenever I do any kind of exercise that's more than a few minutes of light cardio I feel like crap. If I feel good it's because I'm happy that I was physically able to do something so physically intense or because I think/hope it's worth it.

A nice brisk walk feels good, but anything more than that...

...I miss being able to walk on a treadmill at moderate speed for half an hour and then hurt less than when I started.