New One Piece Thread

[LaZodiac]

Rude.
It can be i prefer to keep my moderate understanding of biology?
Pain =/= damage. Pain is how the body estimate damage done to you. To motivate you to make it stop.
While damage, is well the actual damage inflicted.

Else. If your statement was true, it would mean getting stabbed while passed out means you have taken less damage.
Since you dont feel it.



We were informed, when introduced to conquers haki. That its something your born with. You cant attain it through training.
That in turn gives the message, that it doesnt matter how determined you are. Or how hard you struggle.
If your not one of the one in a million, your unable to reach the absolute peak.

Circulatory shock can cause you to die, and is caused by intense pain. So yes, from a VERY thin margin, getting stabbed while unconscious inflicts less damage. Like 1%, but still.

It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Are you born with Conqueror's Haki because you, naturally, have the personality to BE a Conqueror? Luffy was just a goofy ambitious kid, but we can clearly see now he has that will, that spirit inside him. So of course he was born with the Conqueror's Haki. I don't believe someone would both have this Haki and not BE someone who wouldn't use it, and it starts to ask the question "are they conqueror's because of the haki, or are they blessed with this at birth due to their personal spirit, yet to fully blossom?".

I think it leans towards the later, but we're free to disagree.

[Razade]

Circulatory shock can cause you to die, and is caused by intense pain. So yes, from a VERY thin margin, getting stabbed while unconscious inflicts less damage. Like 1%, but still.

It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Are you born with Conqueror's Haki because you, naturally, have the personality to BE a Conqueror? Luffy was just a goofy ambitious kid, but we can clearly see now he has that will, that spirit inside him. So of course he was born with the Conqueror's Haki. I don't believe someone would both have this Haki and not BE someone who wouldn't use it, and it starts to ask the question "are they conqueror's because of the haki, or are they blessed with this at birth due to their personal spirit, yet to fully blossom?".

I think it leans towards the later, but we're free to disagree.

I think it's more that even if you're born with the capability of Conqueror's Haki, you're unlikely to awaken it without your ambitions being put on the line. In the same manner as every living thing can use Observation Haki or Armament Haki, but we don't see everyone using it, there's simply more than capability involved. People across the series use the term "awakened" or "unlocked" when discussing Luffy's use of it at Marineford, and that it was an unconscious thing that he wasn't aware of. One in one million people have the capability, according to Rayleigh. Even if that's a liberal estimation, that's 7,000 people. There's no population number for the One Piece world, but it's probably more than a million. There's no way there's...let's just be conservative and say 21,000 people out there using Conqueror's Haki. Luffy always had the ability to use it. He wouldn't have unlocked it had he not gone out to sea.

[Traab]

We really cant quantify damage in a show like One Piece where people like zoro basically go "Yah no" and ignore their shattered bodies with 3/4 of their blood splattered all over the landscape and get back up. Or luffy who does basically the same thing like 5x in this fight with kaido alone. And the pain versus damage thing, wasnt there a scene where luffy punches blackbeard early on, hurts him, then later punches him and it doesnt work? Was that just blackbeard using haki? Or was there some sort of technique he could bring up to shut down luffy. Ok, before posting I took a look. Blackbeard is VERY MUCH SO a glass cannon. Luffy in second gear planted him into a wall screaming and thrashing in pain. When he came back to try and hit him again, blackbeard used his fruit to shut down luffys rubber powers and choke slammed him into the ground, splitting his scalp and making HIM thrash around screaming. Its like he is made of seastone that has to be activated. But it also provides a weakness that could be exploited. There is also the question of how good blackbeard is with the dark fruit now. I mean, just remember how far luffy has come from that fight at impel down where gear second was enough to injure blackbeard, and in turn luffy got shut down. For all we know, blackbeards fruit is actually a secret god fruit of its own. The god of darkness and slavery because it almost would have to be something along those lines.

[ben-zayb]

Did Zoro take all of Luffy's pain or all his damage?

[Anteros]

That honestly annoyed me a bit. As it kinda represented an escalation of the power creep that really wasnt needed.
Also it slightly undermine the entire comic now i think, that its revealed conquers haki is in fact an extra special fighting haki that only a few posses.
The whole bit about "what matters is your will and determination" is worth less now. Since without conquers haki you will newer reach Yonko level.
(yonko title is another thing, as Buggy shows :D )



According to the direct quote, unless its a mistranslation, he dont take more damage.
The damage he takes just hurts more.

Though thinking about it. The relevance of the Darkness fruit seems a bit of a plot hole.
Its ability to negate other DF's isnt that important, when at the utter peak all that matters is Haki.
Well unless its also involved in stealing DF's.

In general I agree with your overall sentiment, but do keep in mind that Kidd and Law took down a Yonko with pure devil fruit power. It's one of the only good fights we've had in a while where people used their powers creatively instead of just going "hey, I'm suddenly stronger now because of friendship or something"

Haki has turned One Piece from something special and unique into a generic Shonen. The story was so much better before it became the primary power source in the story.

[Dragonus45]

In general I agree with your overall sentiment, but do keep in mind that Kidd and Law took down a Yonko with pure devil fruit power. It's one of the only good fights we've had in a while where people used their powers creatively instead of just going "hey, I'm suddenly stronger now because of friendship or something"

Haki has turned One Piece from something special and unique into a generic Shonen. The story was so much better before it became the primary power source in the story.

No your wrong, haki is what keeps One Piece interesting in a story that could otherwise be overwhelmed by "who has what Devil Fruit" and "who sucks and has no Devil Fruit" and probably saved One Piece from an inevitable strange power creep similar to some issues present in the most recent Jojo series.

[Lurkmoar]

If it was all about Devil Fruits, it would beg the question how Roger was able to reach the height of Pirate King without a Devil Fruit.

[LaZodiac]

If it was all about Devil Fruits, it would beg the question how Roger was able to reach the height of Pirate King without a Devil Fruit.

Exactly Dragonus's point. That's why Haki is a balancing factor.

[Lurkmoar]

Exactly Dragonus's point. That's why Haki is a balancing factor.

I would also hope that there's an element of cleverness and determination, though you could argue that's Observation and Armament.

[Dragonus45]

I would also hope that there's an element of cleverness and determination, though you could argue that's Observation and Armament.

Yes. Haki is effectively a persons ambition and willpower literally translated into power. It lets character traits inform a characters capabilities, but it also is a way let’s us understand a character better by seeing what haki they have and what they do with it.

[Razade]

No your wrong, haki is what keeps One Piece interesting in a story that could otherwise be overwhelmed by "who has what Devil Fruit" and "who sucks and has no Devil Fruit" and probably saved One Piece from an inevitable strange power creep similar to some issues present in the most recent Jojo series.

Not to mention that what...half the Straw Hat crew don't even have Haki. More than half don't even have two different kids of Haki. If Haki was the end all be all, half the crew would be useless. Robin, Nami, Franky, Brook and Chopper don't have Haki at all. Usopp only has Observation Haki. They contribute and engage with enemies, enemies with Haki even, and come out on top. Kaido was wrong when he said that Haki is all that matters. That's what he believes, that wasn't Oda talking directly to the readers as if it were some concrete fact.

[Anteros]

Not to mention that what...half the Straw Hat crew don't even have Haki. More than half don't even have two different kids of Haki. If Haki was the end all be all, half the crew would be useless. Robin, Nami, Franky, Brook and Chopper don't have Haki at all. Usopp only has Observation Haki. They contribute and engage with enemies, enemies with Haki even, and come out on top. Kaido was wrong when he said that Haki is all that matters. That's what he believes, that wasn't Oda talking directly to the readers as if it were some concrete fact.

Except for the fact that most of the crew is actually useless in combat. They serve other out of combat roles instead. Sure, Oda will find them an enemy to fight in every arc, but it's someone that Luffy or Zoro would annihilate in an instant. Their actual combat contributions are negligible which is why they're always shown contributing in other ways. I actually enjoy their fights more than the big 3's lately because they actually contain a degree of cleverness instead of just being a club measuring contest.

As to the other point brought up by Dragonus, I would rather have a story about overpowered devil fruits and the silly rubber boy who overcomes them by his own wit than generic Shonen #234 where the protagonist wins because his willpower is stronger. That's why the first half of one piece is so much better than modern.

Also, saying that haki has prevented power creep is completely absurd. It's literally and objectively false.

[LaZodiac]

Except for the fact that most of the crew is actually useless in combat. They serve other out of combat roles instead. Sure, Oda will find them an enemy to fight in every arc, but it's someone that Luffy or Zoro would annihilate in an instant. Their actual combat contributions are negligible which is why they're always shown contributing in other ways. I actually enjoy their fights more than the big 3's lately because they actually contain a degree of cleverness instead of just being a club measuring contest.

As to the other point brought up by Dragonus, I would rather have a story about overpowered devil fruits and the silly rubber boy who overcomes them by his own wit than generic Shonen #234 where the protagonist wins because his willpower is stronger. That's why the first half of one piece is so much better than modern.

Also, saying that haki has prevented power creep is completely absurd. It's literally and objectively false.

He said it prevented "strange power creep". As in, early Jojo has "guy who shoots fire" and late Jojo has "guy who can make you relive your bad memories but only if you're younger than the civil war". Haki means we don't have to get TO far into the absurdity territory.

The Monster Trio's always been a thing, yeah, but don't kid yourself. I don't imagine Luffy could take out Ulty "in an instance" given the sheer relentless beating she got at the hands of Nami, Usopp, and Big Mom without stopping. While I do agree that Sanji, Luffy (to a degree) and Zoro fight way more straight forwardly with raw output than the others... that is because that's how they fight. And even then, Luffy's still a goof, nothing he does is straight forward in practice. This doesn't make the others "useless in combat", they just fight differently.

[Razade]

Luffy didn't take Ulti out in an instant. She actually managed to land a pretty good blow on him. He was about to go hogwild her on her, but Yamato stepped in.

[Anteros]

He stood still and let her hit him. If he hit her like he was hitting Kaido she definitely doesn't get back up. She only made it through that encounter because he didn't take her seriously at all, and she's way more tanky than most of the opponents that the crew outside of the monster trio fight. They were only able to deal with her by running away until a haki user took her out, which kinda undermines the point about them not needing haki.

[Razade]

You mean when Luffy hit Kaido and he curbstomped him? Or when he unlocked infusion? Also, Nami beat Ulti. There were steps along the way but it was Nami that landed the final (and less than final blows) all without Haki. Robin, no Haki, beat Maria...who has Haki. Same with Franky and Sasaki. All current battles where non-Haki users trump Haki users.

[lord_khaine]

You mean when Luffy hit Kaido and he curbstomped him? Or when he unlocked infusion? Also, Nami beat Ulti. There were steps along the way but it was Nami that landed the final (and less than final blows) all without Haki. Robin, no Haki, beat Maria...who has Haki. Same with Franky and Sasaki. All current battles where non-Haki users trump Haki users.

And battles against fairly insignificant opponents. Not introduced before the last moment where the entire crew needed someone to fight.

As to the other point brought up by Dragonus, I would rather have a story about overpowered devil fruits and the silly rubber boy who overcomes them by his own wit than generic Shonen #234 where the protagonist wins because his willpower is stronger. That's why the first half of one piece is so much better than modern.

Also, saying that haki has prevented power creep is completely absurd. It's literally and objectively false.

Haki has turned One Piece from something special and unique into a generic Shonen. The story was so much better before it became the primary power source in the story.

I think both Law and Kid posses some degree of Haki, but still i agree. The Big Mom fight was one of the better ones we have had in a long time.
Partly because they were smart enough to do 2 v 1 on a monster such as Lin Lin.

While yeah. The Haki power creep is if anything immense. Kinda blows the rails when Shanks casually blast an Admiral level opponent at a distance of several kilometers.
I did like Haki as a secondary power source. Something to catch up with or counter Logia, who had gotten a touch to broken without it.

[Traab]

I see the complaints about haki and to a point agree. They are literally shonen power made a thing that exists in setting. Rather than just being the hero who never gives up, he is the hero whose willpower cant be broken so his fist is the fist that pierces the heavens. Its honestly kinda amusing how gurren laggen this is when you think about it. They have a powerful will, so now they can punch hard enough to hurt the immortal monster god. It can be done without to an extent, or at least other powers make it better. After all, kaido doesnt exactly ignore his giant dragon and demi dragon forms now does he? But in general, yeah, haki is a great way to just no sell stuff you dont want to deal with. "Oh, I accidentally made a fleet admiral hot enough to melt rubber boy at a dozen paces? Thats fine, armament haki will prevent it. Whats that? One of the admirals can move at literal light speed many hundreds of times faster than luffy can move or react? Thats ok, observation haki will deal with that!"

But I also get the argument about how it helps to avoid the silly power creep and get what that means. Otherwise without haki everyone would be finding the most obscure way they can interpret their devil fruit. Robin is crazy enough with how she can form a giant pair of legs with her powers to stamp away in one of the most fanservicey ways possible, im terrified to think about what her "final form" might be. Im guessing full attack on titan flesh golem with her inside that has boobs that can blot out the sun. (Cloud cover will be needed to censor things) I just disagree because its happening anyways. Luffy has literally turned into a looney tunes creature through his devil fruit. It doesnt get much more bizarre than that. And since we arent at the end arc yet, im going to be eating my words as im absolutely certain it is going to get even stranger than this for the actual final fight.

[Razade]

And battles against fairly insignificant opponents. Not introduced before the last moment where the entire crew needed someone to fight.

What do you mean last minute? Page One was introduced in Act 1 of Wano, and we've known about the Headliners since we hit Wano. We knew there were more than we saw too.

[lord_khaine]

What do you mean last minute? Page One was introduced in Act 1 of Wano, and we've known about the Headliners since we hit Wano. We knew there were more than we saw too.

If she was introduced it was done so briefly that i failed to notice her.
And certaily not in a way that can be compared to Kaido, or his 3 disasters.

Of course we knew Kaido was going to have -some- kind of crew.

[LaZodiac]

If she was introduced it was done so briefly that i failed to notice her.
And certaily not in a way that can be compared to Kaido, or his 3 disasters.

Of course we knew Kaido was going to have -some- kind of crew.

There was an entire chapter dedicated to introducing the Tobbiropo where they each got named and each showed off and did stuff.

[Taevyr]

There was an entire chapter dedicated to introducing the Tobbiropo where they each got named and each showed off and did stuff.

Yup, and Page One got introduced quite a while before that, when he and X Drake are sent to deal with undercover Sanji in the Wano capital. He was one of the more present Tobiroppo.

[Anteros]

Yeah? And Gaimon was introduced even before then. It doesn't make them significant.

There's like 3 fights that matter in any given arc. Maybe if Yamato joins we'll start to get 4. The only exceptional thing about Wano was that Kidd and Law actually got a fight that matters outside of the big 3.

[Traab]

Yeah? And Gaimon was introduced even before then. It doesn't make them significant.

There's like 3 fights that matter in any given arc. Maybe if Yamato joins we'll start to get 4. The only exceptional thing about Wano was that Kidd and Law actually got a fight that matters outside of the big 3.

The point was to refute the notion that ulti and such were basically just tossed in there last second to give nami and ussop something meaningless to fight while the real fights were going on. They had been introduced awhile ago and been doing things during this entire period leading up to the battle. As to how significant it was, well id say fairly if not critically. They were the ones under the commanders right? So they were far from mooks and probably needed to be defeated to help end the war going on as they had enough power and authority to try and rally the troops. And they were strong enough to not be brought down by mooks themselves.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah. But i dont think it has been refuted that they were insignificant yet.

On the top of the significance ladder we got Kaido and Big Mom. Their power and significance are outside discussion.

On the second step of the ladder, we have Kaido's 3 natural disasters.
We got hint of their existance as far back as when we first visited the Mink Island.
Jack, the weakest disaster acted as sort of the antagonist for that episode.
While Queen were the top Warden and antagonist for Luffy's captivity arc.
As well as the one who took out a rampaging Lin-Lin when she were wrecking the slave camp.
And King, who remained mysteriously enigmatic still got to briefly display his absurd strenght trolling the Candy Pirates.

From there. I think there is a rather massive step down to Page 1.
Where the most positive thing to be said i think, is "And they were strong enough to not be brought down by mooks"

[Razade]

Yeah. But i dont think it has been refuted that they were insignificant yet.

1. You haven't defined what you think is significant.
2. It's not on us to refute and disprove every single one of your assertions, opinions or comments. We can simply disagree. It's not on us to counter everything you put forward, or what you say is just fact or we don't have grounds to disagree.

On the top of the significance ladder we got Kaido and Big Mom. Their power and significance are outside discussion.

On the second step of the ladder, we have Kaido's 3 natural disasters.
We got hint of their existance as far back as when we first visited the Mink Island.
Jack, the weakest disaster acted as sort of the antagonist for that episode.
While Queen were the top Warden and antagonist for Luffy's captivity arc.
As well as the one who took out a rampaging Lin-Lin when she were wrecking the slave camp.
And King, who remained mysteriously enigmatic still got to briefly display his absurd strenght trolling the Candy Pirates.

From there. I think there is a rather massive step down to Page 1.
Where the most positive thing to be said i think, is "And they were strong enough to not be brought down by mooks"

The Tobi Roppo are, outright, said to be the next rung down from Jack, King and Queen and are the people most likely to replace Jack, King or Queen in the Beast Pirates. In fact, when we're introduced to them, that's the very thing they're introduced by. If they get Yamato (so that presumes that they're strong enough to subdue them) they'll get a chance to fight and replace a Calamity of their choice. They're significant.

[Anteros]

Being assigned to do something doesn't mean you're actually powerful enough to do it. If you actually think someone like Page One is on Yamato's level then I don't know what to tell you. One of them went head to head with Kaido and the other couldn't beat Usopp and got insta-gibbed the second an emperor level opponent realized they existed.

The standard for "significant" is simple. At least for the sake of this discussion. "If they had won their fight would the raid end differently?" For anyone outside of Big Mom, Kaido, King, or Queen the answer is absolutely not. They may as well not exist as far as the overall narrative is concerned, and you only care about them because they're the arbitrarily assigned opponents for the Strawhats for the arc.

[Razade]

Being assigned to do something doesn't mean you're actually powerful enough to do it. If you actually think someone like Page One is on Yamato's level then I don't know what to tell you. One of them went head to head with Kaido and the other couldn't beat Usopp and got insta-gibbed the second an emperor level opponent realized they existed.

What I think isn't actually relevant in regards to what we're told in universe.

The standard for "significant" is simple. At least for the sake of this discussion. "If they had won their fight would the raid end differently?" For anyone outside of Big Mom, Kaido, King, or Queen the answer is absolutely not. They may as well not exist as far as the overall narrative is concerned, and you only care about them because they're the arbitrarily assigned opponents for the Strawhats for the arc.

Then by that metric all of the other Straw Hats might as well not exist? Them winning their fights didn't mean the raid ended different than if they'd not have had the fight at all, or lost simply by the inverse rule. Seems insanely narrow as far as significant is concerned and not only do I not agree with it, even on that basis you're leaving out a ton of characters who directly swayed the combat for the Raid.

Also, you don't get to tell me why I care about a character.

[Anteros]

What I think isn't actually relevant in regards to what we're told in universe.

What we're explicitly shown in universe is that one of them can fight a Yonko for an extended period of time and the other goes down instantly the second they cross paths with one. At least when we're not cherry picking things and making the extremely questionable assumption that just because you're told to do something it means you're automatically capable of it.

Then by that metric all of the other Straw Hats might as well not exist? Them winning their fights didn't mean the raid ended different than if they'd not have had the fight at all, or lost simply by the inverse rule. Seems insanely narrow as far as significant is concerned and not only do I not agree with it, even on that basis you're leaving out a ton of characters who directly swayed the combat for the Raid.

Yes, that is indeed the exact conversation we've been having. When it comes to combat, most of the Straw Hats are completely and utterly irrelevant. They're vital team members in other ways such as navigation, ship maintenance, etc and Luffy couldn't function without them, but as combatants the ones without monster haki are irrelevant to the story. We care about their fights because we're attached to them as characters and we want to see them win and grow, but the outcome of the arc wouldn't change if they lost. It's like saying Roshi is relevant to Dragon Ball Super. Sure, he's over in the corner fighting some dudes, and it's fun to watch...but it's irrelevant to the overall plot.

[hungrycrow]

If Nami and Usopp hadn't beaten Ulti and Page One then Tama would have died, all the gifters would have switched sides again, and a whole bunch more side characters would have died.

That goes for most arcs: if a mid-level bad guy ever wins a fight with a Straw Hat then they run around killing all the civilians while the monster trio are too busy to do anything about it. Or they jump in on one of the big fights and backstab Luffy at a critical moment.