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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Oh yes certainly is a difference. But in this case its the NewKama who are ****ty, when they fail to recognise "hey we are making that guy uncomfortable by invading his personal space".
    It does not matter who you are, or who you were, or what you identify as. Thats the ****ty behavior. Not Sanji who are having his personal space violated.

    I also find the whole NewKama situation kinda hilarious in how it seemingly expose a double moral standard here.
    Since im quite certain that had it been men chasing Nami around for 2 years there would be angry mobs howling for their blood.

    Instead its Sanji who are being chased. So he is a NewKamaphobe. A label he gets solely on the basis of other people failing to respect his personal space.
    So it turns out being a victim doesn't magically absolve you of all your sins. Sanji was in fact harassed on that island, although from what we see of the group in general it seems to have been some degree of deliberate trolling/innocent fun. Doesn't make Sanji less of a jerk.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    At the same time though. With the exception of the Wano incident. Then i cant really of examples where Sanji has pursued women who did not want his attention.
    I agree Sanji's horndog nature can be overstated by folks sometimes, just because it isn't everyone's flavor of comic relief doesn't mean it stops being funny to people that do get a laugh out of him being rejected.
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    I will admit the majority of people he flirts with are generally tolerant of it. They arent bothered per say, but nor are they that interested. Wasnt he kinda creepy with the mink tribe and their whole way of saying hello though? I seem to remember that whole garchu thing. Starts at 2 minutes in. Feels creepy, like using their ignorance of what it means to him to get off.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    So it turns out being a victim doesn't magically absolve you of all your sins. Sanji was in fact harassed on that island, although from what we see of the group in general it seems to have been some degree of deliberate trolling/innocent fun. Doesn't make Sanji less of a jerk.
    Innocent fun.. ? Sanji was so stressed out he literally learned how to fly.
    At the very best it was relentless bullying/harrashment.

    I will admit the majority of people he flirts with are generally tolerant of it. They arent bothered per say, but nor are they that interested. Wasnt he kinda creepy with the mink tribe and their whole way of saying hello though? I seem to remember that whole garchu thing. Starts at 2 minutes in. Feels creepy, like using their ignorance of what it means to him to get off.
    Hmm.. its kinda hard to decide honestly. Perhaps borderline behavior.
    Since it was at the same time fairly innocent.
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    So it turns out being a victim doesn't magically absolve you of all your sins. Sanji was in fact harassed on that island, although from what we see of the group in general it seems to have been some degree of deliberate trolling/innocent fun. Doesn't make Sanji less of a jerk.
    Again, reverse the genders and I very much doubt your opinion stays the same. If the comic had Nami spend 2 years on an island while constantly under threat of harassment, rape, and being forcefully undressed I'm pretty sure most people would have quit the comic in disgust rather than characterize it as "innocent fun". It's actually pretty disgusting to see people try to argue that it's anything but blatant sexual assault. Even when Sanji eventually "consents" to being treated that way, it's under extreme duress and blackmail.

    I'm fully of the opinion that if someone is actively sexually assaulting you, that you can be as mean to them as you want. We've never actually seen Sanji interact with an Okama that wasn't actively sexually assaulting him, or trying to hurt his friends. At least not that I remember. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, Sanji is a creep for his attitude towards women. Even if they do tolerate it. Easily my least favorite of the main cast. He's still in the right in this particular instance. The way crossdressing/transgender people are depicted in the comic in general is way more troubling than Sanji's attitude towards them.

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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Again, reverse the genders and I very much doubt your opinion stays the same. If the comic had Nami spend 2 years on an island while constantly under threat of harassment, rape, and being forcefully undressed I'm pretty sure most people would have quit the comic in disgust rather than characterize it as "innocent fun". It's actually pretty disgusting to see people try to argue that it's anything but blatant sexual assault. Even when Sanji eventually "consents" to being treated that way, it's under extreme duress and blackmail.

    I'm fully of the opinion that if someone is actively sexually assaulting you, that you can be as mean to them as you want. We've never actually seen Sanji interact with an Okama that wasn't actively sexually assaulting him, or trying to hurt his friends. At least not that I remember. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, Sanji is a creep for his attitude towards women. Even if they do tolerate it. Easily my least favorite of the main cast. He's still in the right in this particular instance. The way crossdressing/transgender people are depicted in the comic in general is way more troubling than Sanji's attitude towards them.
    Please note that if we reverse the genders perfectly it would not be Nami, it would be Girl!Sanji, who is still the exact same person as Boy!Sanji in personality and the like... and all the Newkama would also be men who look traditionally like women. I don't think this would be substantively different, considering.

    I also think you're overblowing what the Newkama people wanted to do.

    I'm conflicted as per the reprersentation of trans folk in the series because yes the usage of it as a joke is kinda **** at times but also it's unambigious that some of the coolest, most important and powerful characters ARE trans. Bonclay, Ivankov and her second in command, Crocodile probably, Yamato and Kiku, there's a ton of genuinely quite good trans rep in the series. It treats them as jokes at times, but it treats everyone as jokes sometimes. It's kind of the thing it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Please note that if we reverse the genders perfectly it would not be Nami, it would be Girl!Sanji, who is still the exact same person as Boy!Sanji in personality and the like... and all the Newkama would also be men who look traditionally like women. I don't think this would be substantively different, considering.

    I also think you're overblowing what the Newkama people wanted to do.

    I'm conflicted as per the reprersentation of trans folk in the series because yes the usage of it as a joke is kinda **** at times but also it's unambigious that some of the coolest, most important and powerful characters ARE trans. Bonclay, Ivankov and her second in command, Crocodile probably, Yamato and Kiku, there's a ton of genuinely quite good trans rep in the series. It treats them as jokes at times, but it treats everyone as jokes sometimes. It's kind of the thing it does.
    At the very least, the Newkama people explicitly wanted to strip Sanji and put him in a dress against his will. This is sexual assault. I wouldn't think that would be up for debate. As to other desires they may or may not have....if they didn't want to do anything to him, why are they chasing him? Why is he running away? There's definitely some unfortunate implications there. I very much doubt it's just that Sanji is that much of a trans-phobe that he took off running for no reason and they just randomly decided to chase him.

    Crocodile is trans? I'm not disputing it, but I never picked up on it.

    I'm not sure Yamato counts. They seem to want to be Oden specifically, rather than actually caring about their gender. I suppose we'll see how they identify after this arc as I doubt they continue to identify as Oden once things are resolved. It's a good opportunity for representation if Oda wants to go that way, but I don't think he will. We'll see.

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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Crocodile is trans? I'm not disputing it, but I never picked up on it.

    I'm not sure Yamato counts. They seem to want to be Oden specifically, rather than actually caring about their gender. I suppose we'll see how they identify after this arc as I doubt they continue to identify as Oden once things are resolved. It's a good opportunity for representation if Oda wants to go that way, but I don't think he will. We'll see.
    There's a lot of little details here and there to the point where it's a fairly reasonable and popular fan theory. The main thrust of it is that Ivankov said she'd share Crocodile's secret to everyone if Crocodile didn't help Luffy, and so he does. People tried to figure out what the secret is, and in analyzing Crocodile's character realized a couple of things. In no particular order; Oda's "Seven Warlords as Kids" art shows Crocodile as a rather feminine kid. We know from Doffy that this art is canonical and will tease information. We know that when the painter Baroque works member uses rainbow paint to give everyone their dreams, Crocodile's is to become a super masculine and cool pirate king stereotype. We know that when they visit the Newkama layer of Impel Down, Luffy gets a drag style version of his normal outfit, and Crocodile gets... his regular outfit, implying the clothes he wears all the time are a sort that the Newkama just... have on hand.

    Their is likely more but my head hurts. The general consensus is that Crocodile, before he became a Warlord, worked with the Newkama revolutionaries and got his gender transed by Ivankov and is trying to hide the fact that he is because he just wants to stealth which, I mean fair.

    Yamato definitely counts I feel. While it's true that he wants to be Oden, that comes AFTER he decides to be a boy. We know that one of the non Kaidou pirates during this arc referred to him as a girl and it made Yamato grit his teeth and get real mad about that guy specifically, in a sea of ******* pirates that want him dead. So there's precedent that Yamato is male.

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    I just always assumed that Logia users could make their clothes look however they want honestly, since they seem to be part of the person rather than something they're wearing. Otherwise they'd get destroyed every time they use their powers. The Ivankov part of the theory does seem pretty strong. The rest seems kinda weak, but I suppose we'll see. I doubt the story resolves without us finding out his secret one way or another.

    With Yamato, the question is whether they were upset because of being misgendered, or upset because the gender used wasn't the same as Oden's. I don't think it's completely clear. I'm fine with either interpretation, but I just don't think we know for sure yet.

    It'll certainly throw Sanji for a loop if Yamato joins the crew identifying as a male. Not sure I trust Oda to handle that tactfully. I'm still not sold on Yamato joining the crew either though.

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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I just always assumed that Logia users could make their clothes look however they want honestly, since they seem to be part of the person rather than something they're wearing. Otherwise they'd get destroyed every time they use their powers. The Ivankov part of the theory does seem pretty strong. The rest seems kinda weak, but I suppose we'll see. I doubt the story resolves without us finding out his secret one way or another.

    With Yamato, the question is whether they were upset because of being misgendered, or upset because the gender used wasn't the same as Oden's. I don't think it's completely clear. I'm fine with either interpretation, but I just don't think we know for sure yet.

    It'll certainly throw Sanji for a loop if Yamato joins the crew identifying as a male. Not sure I trust Oda to handle that tactfully. I'm still not sold on Yamato joining the crew either though.
    Logia can incorporate their clothing into their elemental form, but cannot adjust what they look like. It's like shapeshifting in DND.

    We shall see. I'm... tentative on Sanji meeting Yamato because I'm just hoping he doesn't make an ass of himself.

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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    I still think there is some uncertainty involving Yamato's gender myself. But Crocodile has almost no uncertainty left as time goes on and Oda keeps dropping more blatant hints. Like
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post

    Their is likely more but my head hurts. The general consensus is that Crocodile, before he became a Warlord, worked with the Newkama revolutionaries and got his gender transed by Ivankov and is trying to hide the fact that he is because he just wants to stealth which, I mean fair.
    This isn't even close to general consensus. It's a fan theory for sure, a fairly popular one around Marineford but it's not been a big one, or all that popular, since.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Yamato definitely counts I feel. While it's true that he wants to be Oden, that comes AFTER he decides to be a boy. We know that one of the non Kaidou pirates during this arc referred to him as a girl and it made Yamato grit his teeth and get real mad about that guy specifically, in a sea of ******* pirates that want him dead. So there's precedent that Yamato is male.
    While I'm fully of the mind that Yamato is genderqueer on some level, Oda has officially said they are female. It is their listed gender on her Vivre Card. It's important to note that Kikunojo is also listed as female on their Vivre Card.

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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    This isn't even close to general consensus. It's a fan theory for sure, a fairly popular one around Marineford but it's not been a big one, or all that popular, since.

    While I'm fully of the mind that Yamato is genderqueer on some level, Oda has officially said they are female. It is their listed gender on her Vivre Card. It's important to note that Kikunojo is also listed as female on their Vivre Card.
    I meant "on this forum". I've got a headache, forgive some mistakes.

    I've always heard the vivrecards aren't 100% trustworthy with stuff, and that the interview was more talking about biological sex than gender identity. Regardless, we'll see. Glad Kiku is noted properly though, at least.

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    Vivre cards are canon as to their printing, but they can change. Typically anything that's put in the data books that contradict Vivre cards are considered addendums or clarifications. It's a miss for Oda for sure, if Yamato becomes just another one of the gals on the crew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    This isn't even close to general consensus. It's a fan theory for sure, a fairly popular one around Marineford but it's not been a big one, or all that popular, since.
    No general consensus is about right. After that last Vivre card I linked came out I don't think anyone paying attention actually disagrees with it anymore.
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    I gave up on Oda making Sanji not look like an absolute voyeuristic creep. Between him, Jiraiya, Roshi, and other popular lecher stereotypes portrayed in manga/anime, many manga authors don't seem to take voyeurism seriously. It was bad back in Thriller Bark when he expressed his intent, and it was worse in Wano when he actually went and did it.

    As for Sanji's treatment of okamas from Newkama Land, I initially accepted the explanation that instead of homophobia it's possibly his attitude towards those who intended to force him into wearing a dress against his will, which naturally implied undressing him without consent. Even if what they tried doing to Sanji wasn't straight up sexual assault, that's still being a creep at best. But then... Sanji absolutely flipped out and overreacted after discovering his blood transfusion donors were okamas from Fishman Island.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I've always heard the vivrecards aren't 100% trustworthy with stuff, and that the interview was more talking about biological sex than gender identity.
    Vivre card, being canon material, is exceedingly more trustworthy than fan speculation. To me, it's really simple. If any information from an older official material gets contradicted down the line with information from any new* official material, then I use the most recent official update. I preferred referring to Yamato using male pronouns due to the ambiguity caused by her wanting to be Oden, until the vivre card confirmed otherwise.

    * such as in the case of a databook stating Shanks was already an Emperor when he met Luffy being superceded by Chapter 957 revealing he became an Emperor only 6 years ago
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I gave up on Oda making Sanji not look like an absolute voyeuristic creep. Between him, Jiraiya, Roshi, and other popular lecher stereotypes portrayed in manga/anime, many manga authors don't seem to take voyeurism seriously. It was bad back in Thriller Bark when he expressed his intent, and it was worse in Wano when he actually went and did it.

    As for Sanji's treatment of okamas from Newkama Land, I initially accepted the explanation that instead of homophobia it's possibly his attitude towards those who intended to force him into wearing a dress against his will, which naturally implied undressing him without consent. Even if what they tried doing to Sanji wasn't straight up sexual assault, that's still being a creep at best. But then... Sanji absolutely flipped out and overreacted after discovering his blood transfusion donors were okamas from Fishman Island.
    He did just get tortured for 2 years by Okamas so if we want to be generous we can read the scene as triggering his trauma rather than transphobia. Either way though, it's played for a cheap laugh, and that's on Oda. I suppose Japanese culture doesn't have the same outlook towards these things as the west does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No general consensus is about right. After that last Vivre card I linked came out I don't think anyone paying attention actually disagrees with it anymore.
    If you say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I gave up on Oda making Sanji not look like an absolute voyeuristic creep. Between him, Jiraiya, Roshi, and other popular lecher stereotypes portrayed in manga/anime, many manga authors don't seem to take voyeurism seriously. It was bad back in Thriller Bark when he expressed his intent, and it was worse in Wano when he actually went and did it.

    As for Sanji's treatment of okamas from Newkama Land, I initially accepted the explanation that instead of homophobia it's possibly his attitude towards those who intended to force him into wearing a dress against his will, which naturally implied undressing him without consent. Even if what they tried doing to Sanji wasn't straight up sexual assault, that's still being a creep at best. But then... Sanji absolutely flipped out and overreacted after discovering his blood transfusion donors were okamas from Fishman Island.
    If I had to get a blood transfusion and I found out that it came from a person, or people, that tried to violate my bodily autonomy (for two years) then I would be furious. I can't even articulate the level of violation I would feel learning that information. He doesn't have an issue with Bon Clay or Kuku. Calling him a transphobe or a homophobe seems hyperbolic. He's certainly not aged well given modern sensibilities in the West to be sure but Oda writes for the Japanese base moreso than any other.

    Also, just pointing out - Ivankov may have allusions to Frank N. Furter but he is based on an actual Okama that Oda knows by the name of Norio Imamura. To the extent that when Imamura found out, he asked to do the VA work and Oda told Toei to hire him. He's no longer the VA for some absolute BS legal stuff we can't get into here, but the Rocky Horror Picture Show references are secondary.
    Last edited by Razade; 2022-04-11 at 10:40 PM.

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    Regarding Yamato, to me it always just seemed like an extreme version of hero worship.
    It was always being Oden first, then a boy secondary, explained by "because Oden is a boy"
    And i cant help but think, that had Yamato actually been more serious about being a boy than being Oden.
    Then she would have done more about dressing like a boy.

    Instead i recall her dashing around in a vaugely revealing outfit.
    Something that makes me think she as such is comfortable with her body as it is.
    Unlike all the people who wasnt, and sough Ivankov for a miracle.

    He's certainly not aged well given modern sensibilities in the West to be sure but Oda writes for the Japanese base moreso than any other.
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    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2022-04-12 at 04:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Regarding Yamato, to me it always just seemed like an extreme version of hero worship.
    It was always being Oden first, then a boy secondary, explained by "because Oden is a boy"
    And i cant help but think, that had Yamato actually been more serious about being a boy than being Oden.
    Then she would have done more about dressing like a boy.

    Instead i recall her dashing around in a vaugely revealing outfit.
    Something that makes me think she as such is comfortable with her body as it is.
    Unlike all the people who wasnt, and sough Ivankov for a miracle.



    I am sooo glad for the last bit. Its why i read manga.
    Until he removed the mask Yamato was wearing a completely concealing outfit. He's uncomfortable being called a woman, and Luffy's given him a male nickname like with Trafalgar. I'm also pretty sure Yamato was considered a guy even during his flashback to before he learned about Oden.

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    Now I'm curios how Sanji will react to Yamato, I hope he'll immediately show rough respect/annoyance like what he has with Kin'emon seeing him as a Oden type from the first glance.

    I din't participate in the other thread, that was kinda dead, so I'll air my griavances with Yamato's devil fruit here and now. I really wished it was a mythical Uma Uma no Mi, Model: Kirin as a dragon-like parallel to his father.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brackenlord View Post
    Now I'm curios how Sanji will react to Yamato, I hope he'll immediately show rough respect/annoyance like what he has with Kin'emon seeing him as a Oden type from the first glance.

    I din't participate in the other thread, that was kinda dead, so I'll air my griavances with Yamato's devil fruit here and now. I really wished it was a mythical Uma Uma no Mi, Model: Kirin as a dragon-like parallel to his father.
    I thought a kirin was more of a lightning horse monster. Wait, here we go,
    The kirin is a chimerical beast resembling a deer with scales like a dragon’s covering its body. It has a tail like an ox’s and a flowing mane. Its body and mane are covered in brilliant holy fire. Its face is the picture of utter serenity.
    So at least it has dragon like scales on its body so I could see that as close enough I suppose. Though I dont think serene really describe yamato. :p Also, the rest of its description makes pretty clear that it is NOT an aggressive creature in general. Like, this is the kind of mount the buddha would ride. Though it does destroy evil so maybe it could work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Until he removed the mask Yamato was wearing a completely concealing outfit. He's uncomfortable being called a woman, and Luffy's given him a male nickname like with Trafalgar. I'm also pretty sure Yamato was considered a guy even during his flashback to before he learned about Oden.
    I dunno, I don't get the same feeling from Yamato that you do with Kiku. That along with Kiku being called 'Male (Heart of a Woman)' and Yamato being called 'Female' makes me think we're going to get a moment where Yamato realizes that its better to be herself rather than to be Oden. Just seems like the natural extension of her story so far.
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    Until he removed the mask Yamato was wearing a completely concealing outfit. He's uncomfortable being called a woman, and Luffy's given him a male nickname like with Trafalgar. I'm also pretty sure Yamato was considered a guy even during his flashback to before he learned about Oden.
    Didnt seem uncomfortable with it. More like just correcting someone being factual incorrect. Like when calling red blue.
    We certainly dont have any evidence of how Yamato felt about things before Oden.
    But if all this was true. Then the reasoning for being a boy should not be "because Oden was one"

    I dunno, I don't get the same feeling from Yamato that you do with Kiku. That along with Kiku being called 'Male (Heart of a Woman)' and Yamato being called 'Female' makes me think we're going to get a moment where Yamato realizes that its better to be herself rather than to be Oden. Just seems like the natural extension of her story so far.
    Yeah. That does in turn seem like the more reasonable story path. The one with the most growth in.
    That you should try and be someone else does not seem like a healthy lesson to teach.
    Like.. going "im Oden" is a rejection of reality. Since Yamato clearly isnt.

    Else. Whats the source of the Kiku bit?
    The Wiki didnt have anything unusual like that about her.
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I dunno, I don't get the same feeling from Yamato that you do with Kiku. That along with Kiku being called 'Male (Heart of a Woman)' and Yamato being called 'Female' makes me think we're going to get a moment where Yamato realizes that its better to be herself rather than to be Oden. Just seems like the natural extension of her story so far.
    This is also where I think it's going. It's a very "One Piece" story to tell. Then again, they could go the gag route and have them decide "I'm Luffy" or some nonsense after seeing him beat Kaido.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But if all this was true. Then the reasoning for being a boy should not be "because Oden was one"
    Flatly; you don't get to say what is and isn't valid for a trans person. If someone said "my hero is a guy and I've styled my life off them, and it makes me happy" then saying "well you're still a girl you're not validly trans" is kinda ****ty a thing to do.

    Also in the scene I'm referring to where Yamato corrects someone, there's a clear degree of anger in his expression. You're free to disagree, but I don't think that we'll get some lame "I'm actually a girl teehee" ****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Flatly; you don't get to say what is and isn't valid for a trans person. If someone said "my hero is a guy and I've styled my life off them, and it makes me happy" then saying "well you're still a girl you're not validly trans" is kinda ****ty a thing to do.

    Also in the scene I'm referring to where Yamato corrects someone, there's a clear degree of anger in his expression. You're free to disagree, but I don't think that we'll get some lame "I'm actually a girl teehee" ****.
    I dunno, I kinda agree with the idea that since yamatos whole persona is around being oden that by the end of the arc yamato will come to a realization either that its better to follow your own path instead of totally copying someone else, though its fine to have an inspiration, or realize that he doesnt have to be oden to be a hero, he can be yamato and still save the day. Its not about supporting a trans person or not, it just kinda feels like thats the tropey path this will follow. I may be wrong though and if yamato decides to continue to carry on the oden name and gender identity, meh, no skin off my back, whatever makes them happy. Though it might be kinda weird for momo considering thats his dad.
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Flatly; you don't get to say what is and isn't valid for a trans person. If someone said "my hero is a guy and I've styled my life off them, and it makes me happy" then saying "well you're still a girl you're not validly trans" is kinda ****ty a thing to do.

    Also in the scene I'm referring to where Yamato corrects someone, there's a clear degree of anger in his expression. You're free to disagree, but I don't think that we'll get some lame "I'm actually a girl teehee" ****.


    That isn't what they say though. They aren't styling themselves off Oden. They are pretending to BE Oden. If you met a biological female claiming to be Napoleon (or another male historical figure) would you consider them Trans? Historically we don't do so. I'm not claiming to know the right answer here.

    To be frank, I think you're reading a lot more into that scene than what's actually there because you want your interpretation to be correct. If Yamato found out that Oden was actually female, they'd swap their pronouns immediately to match. They're not Trans, they're Odensexual. Granted, this is just my opinion and I don't know how the story will end up, but you don't either.

    We're talking about a fictional character whose gender-identity hasn't fully been confirmed by the author. There are multiple possible interpretations. No one here is trying to say that actual Trans people who transition for whatever reason they want aren't valid. They're saying that Yamato doesn't actually care about the issue. I think Yamato is clearly not going to continue living as "Oden" once their arc is resolved, so we'll see how they identify when it's said and done. I wouldn't be surprised if we get an answer on that in the next 20 chapters or so.

    And yeah, Oda shouldn't use a character's sexuality/gender to generate cheap gags the way he does....but he's always done that and he's clearly not going to stop. It's not going to hold up well to history.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-04-12 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post

    Else. Whats the source of the Kiku bit?
    The Wiki didnt have anything unusual like that about her.
    What do you mean source? That Kiku is female? The Vivre Card and latest Data Book, both of which are canon. Also the manga, when Zoro says she's a guy she tells him that she has the heart of a woman. Also the fact that everyone refers to her with female pronouns, including their brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Else. Whats the source of the Kiku bit?
    The Wiki didnt have anything unusual like that about her.
    Razade already answered it, but its from the Vivre Card for Kiku as well a comment she made in the manga itself. Its when someone comments that she's one of the Nine Scabbards cause the name specifies men and Kiku replies that she is a woman at heart. Which, to me, is a poetic way of saying that she is...well...a trans woman. A pretty cool one at that. By that same metric, Yamato's doesn't have similar epitaph and in the original Japanese is referred to with more gender neutral terms than translations.

    It leads me down a similar thought process as Anteros that Yamato isn't trans but Oden. Oden was a guy and thus she is. I think either way Yamato is going to have some big character development in that regard soon, after which there will be more clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    What do you mean source? That Kiku is female? The Vivre Card and latest Data Book, both of which are canon. Also the manga, when Zoro says she's a guy she tells him that she has the heart of a woman. Also the fact that everyone refers to her with female pronouns, including their brother.
    This, yeah.
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    Default Re: New One Piece Thread

    Vivre cards acknowledging Kiku/other characters being trans (through the use of a common phrase) but not Yamato/other characters simply means that certain characters were acknowledged in whatever way and others were not, it's not proof of anything else.

    Trans people are also not a monolith when it comes to how people treat them, there are any number of examples of people being okay with one "group" of trans people but not another for various reasons. (for example sexism, racism, transmedicalism, classism, enbyphobia, homophobia or just plain old ignorance from lack of representation/exposure)

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