New One Piece Thread

[lord_khaine]

Flatly; you don't get to say what is and isn't valid for a trans person. If someone said "my hero is a guy and I've styled my life off them, and it makes me happy" then saying "well you're still a girl you're not validly trans" is kinda ****ty a thing to do.

Well equally flatly. You dont get to say who is and isnt a trans person as an authority.

What do you mean source? That Kiku is female? The Vivre Card and latest Data Book, both of which are canon. Also the manga, when Zoro says she's a guy she tells him that she has the heart of a woman. Also the fact that everyone refers to her with female pronouns, including their brother.

No that Kiku was anything besides female.
But if the Vivre card says it then thats it.

[Razade]

No that Kiku was anything besides female.
But if the Vivre card says it then thats it.

1. The Red Scabbards title is such that they're nine male samurai.
2. Kiku and Izou are refereed to as brothers in the manga.
3. The Vivre card lists their sex as male, and their gender as female (specifically it states "has the heart of a woman" which is how the trans community in Japan typically explain it)
4. Zoro calls her out for being male and she corrects Zoro. That makes no damn sense if she had always been, biologically, female.
5. She literally has a dead name. Her birth name is Kikunojo, and she corrects people that it's just Kiku now.

There's literally no read, at all, from the series even without verification from the Data Books that she wasn't anything other than a transwoman.

[Taevyr]

So, as for the latest chapter

Spoiler: Chapter 1047 scanlation

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I like that Kaido gets some solid blows in on Luffy here, now that he's no longer caught off guard by his awakening, and emphasizes how Luffy won't just be able to rely on his new DF powers to win. I doubt the actual fight won't be won by the sudden shonen power-up, but at least Oda's trying to indicate that a power-up alone doesn't make a pirate king: it's will.

Also, further proof that Roger was DF-less. Don't think we had direct confirmation of that thus far.

[ben-zayb]

So, as for the latest chapter

Spoiler: Chapter 1046 scanlation

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I like that Kaido gets some solid blows in on Luffy here, now that he's no longer caught off guard by his awakening, and emphasizes how Luffy won't just be able to rely on his new DF powers to win. I doubt the actual fight won't be won by the sudden shonen power-up, but at least Oda's trying to indicate that a power-up alone doesn't make a pirate king: it's will.

Also, further proof that Roger was DF-less. Don't think we had direct confirmation of that thus far.

Spoiler: Ch. 1047

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Now that I think about it, we're yet to see anyone in the Roger Pirates fight with a DF in the anime flashback against the WB Pirates. The top pirates in his crew (Rayleigh, Oden, and Roger himself) are confirmed to be non-DF users and have CoC, so at this point I'm expecting Scopper Gaban to also be the same.

Granted, there's Douglas Bullet and Buggy, but I'm not sure how canon Bullet is and Buggy seems more of an understudy than a full-fledged pirate at that point and he didn't even intend to eat his DF.

Also, you may edit the chapter number

[Anteros]

Spoiler: 1047 spoilers

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The whole "you need haki and not just an overpowered fruit" statement would ring more true if Luffy weren't literally about to end the fight with his overpowered fruit attack where his fist grows to the size of the entire island. We had the "everyone stares at the sky and cheers Luffy" moment. This fight is over.

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler: 1047 spoilers

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The whole "you need haki and not just an overpowered fruit" statement would ring more true if Luffy weren't literally about to end the fight with his overpowered fruit attack where his fist grows to the size of the entire island. We had the "everyone stares at the sky and cheers Luffy" moment. This fight is over.

Spoiler: 1047

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The whole "you need willpower and determination" not super fruits or gimmicks would be a more accurate reading of the chapter actually.

[Razade]

Spoiler: 1047

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Enjoyed the chapter a great deal even if it just sorta turned the dial. Oda's on record as saying that Kaido won't be put down with a punch, doubt that sentiment has changed. Also good to see Luffy get knocked about some more this chapter. Continued proof that this isn't just some over powered power up, Kaido's been keeping up which is pretty much to Oda's formula. I'd give it. Also liked how it's now confirmed that Roger didn't have a Devil Fruit. I can finally stop seeing people argue as if he had the Gomu Gomu no Mi or whatever. Also pretty clear that Kaido is saying you need anbition (which is what Haki means), not just some fancy power. This is a through line for the series. Lucci said as much in Enis Lobby, Doffy said it, now Kaido. It's not enough to be strong. You have to want it.

Also reminder: Next week is Golden Week but we still might get the chapter early from scans.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: 1047

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The whole "you need willpower and determination" not super fruits or gimmicks would be a more accurate reading of the chapter actually.

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No, the point is that Kaido is being proven wrong. Like all antagonists in the series right before defeat. Not to mention that we just had big mom defeated by pure devil fruit power prior to Kaido's impending defeat here.

Spoiler: 1047

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Enjoyed the chapter a great deal even if it just sorta turned the dial. Oda's on record as saying that Kaido won't be put down with a punch, doubt that sentiment has changed. Also good to see Luffy get knocked about some more this chapter. Continued proof that this isn't just some over powered power up, Kaido's been keeping up which is pretty much to Oda's formula. I'd give it. Also liked how it's now confirmed that Roger didn't have a Devil Fruit. I can finally stop seeing people argue as if he had the Gomu Gomu no Mi or whatever. Also pretty clear that Kaido is saying you need anbition (which is what Haki means), not just some fancy power. This is a through line for the series. Lucci said as much in Enis Lobby, Doffy said it, now Kaido. It's not enough to be strong. You have to want it.

Also reminder: Next week is Golden Week but we still might get the chapter early from scans.

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Luffy: literally punches with the fist the size of a mountain, so powerful that he has to shout for Momo to move the island out of the way so he doesn't destroy it.

You: "glad to see proof this isn't an overpowered power up"

At some point I wonder what it would take.

[Razade]

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Luffy: literally punches with the fist the size of a mountain, so powerful that he has to shout for Momo to move the island out of the way so he doesn't destroy it.

You: "glad to see proof this isn't an overpowered power up"

At some point I wonder what it would take.

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Yeah I know right? Luffy's never punched with huge fists before or enlarged any parts of his body. What a wild twist after he turned his entire body giant, which is totally out of left field for Luffy's powers as we've seen them over the last 1046 chapters.

I get it. You don't like the new form. We all get it. Acting like Luffy making a huge part of his body is some huge new twist or overpowered step after Gear 3 and his increasing sizes based off that is just absurd. I'm not trying to convince you, mostly because it's clearly a lost cause so what's the point, but clearly I'm not swayed by your arguments either. I don't know what it'll take for me to go "whoah! That's OP!" but rest assured, if it happens I'll let you know. Other people are allowed to have opinions.

[Dragonus45]

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No, the point is that Kaido is being proven wrong. Like all antagonists in the series right before defeat. Not to mention that we just had big mom defeated by pure devil fruit power prior to Kaido's impending defeat here.

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Kaido is wrong because he is desperately hopping Luffy's awakening is just a gimmick and not representative of true ambition or Luffy himself being dangerous. He is wrong about that. He is right though about how people are dangerous, not devil fruits or fancy marital arts styles or any number of things a person might rest on for power. Those things are tools, and as our characters have learned them and expanded their uses they have become stronger for it. But every single Straw Hat has at the core of them real and true ambition. Desire, alongside the will to become stronger to achieve it.


As for Kid and Law, I never though about it but you are totally right. Those two aren't particularly ambitious or driven, they are just losers coasting along on a couple of powerful fruits and living it up with no worries in the world because their haxxor powers just handle all their problems for them right. Does that sound a lot like them?

You keep trying to twist the cart in front of the horse here and say people are strong because of their fruits and not because they skill and power is the fruits of their labor and desire to improve and become stronger. Even when this chapter literally goes out of it's way to say out loud that that is the wrong read for this. So I have this great quote for you you might be familiar with if you hang around on these forums.

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

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Luffy: literally punches with the fist the size of a mountain, so powerful that he has to shout for Momo to move the island out of the way so he doesn't destroy it.

You: "glad to see proof this isn't an overpowered power up"

At some point I wonder what it would take.

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Ah yes, Luffy make Big Punch into Bigger Punch is so unexpected. What's next, stretching his arms from 72 Gomu Gomus to 142 Gomu Gomus?

[Traab]

Theory crafting time. Lets say marineford was entirely different. Instead of ace being executed as a trap for whitebeard, lets say they captured, I dunno, yamato, and that was enough to bring out kaido and his forces. (Its not important why, just that in this case its what happened) How differently would the war have played out? Do you think the outcome would have been different with a yonko at his current peak backed up by his all stars, and tobiroppo as elites as well as his various goons from nameless mooks to mid rankers? Who would be responsible for fighting kaido, and would they have enough elites left to deal with his commanders? Would sengoku and garo dog pile him with the admirals to try and finish him quickly, or would they assign someone to keep him busy till enough of his big names were defeated to free up their big names to focus on him?

[ben-zayb]

Theory crafting time. Lets say marineford was entirely different. Instead of ace being executed as a trap for whitebeard, lets say they captured, I dunno, yamato, and that was enough to bring out kaido and his forces. (Its not important why, just that in this case its what happened) How differently would the war have played out? Do you think the outcome would have been different with a yonko at his current peak backed up by his all stars, and tobiroppo as elites as well as his various goons from nameless mooks to mid rankers? Who would be responsible for fighting kaido, and would they have enough elites left to deal with his commanders? Would sengoku and garo dog pile him with the admirals to try and finish him quickly, or would they assign someone to keep him busy till enough of his big names were defeated to free up their big names to focus on him?

The main problems I see here are 1. Kaido doesn't seem to care for Yamato as much as WB cares for Ace, 2. many of Kaido's forces are physically superior but are going on a naval invasion with their DF weaknesses, 3. the legendary hero Garp has zero reasons to hold back in this fight, and 4. Kaido has been caught by the Marines before, and will likely know his common tricks and tactics.

For the All-Stars:

• 1. King will be the only swordsman who can stall or preoccupy Mihawk, and his chances are slim considering even Mihawk's disciple beat him. The moment Mihawk isn't distracted, The World's Strongest Slash will be locked on Kaido—two swordsmen were already able to scar Kaido, so I'm expecting a lot more from him.
• 2. Queen has shown his attacks are also detrimental to their own forces, whose lives don't mean to him. I can see any of the admirals making quick work of him, considering Queen doesn't show armament haki capabilities to hurt logia users and he can't regenerate damage from their attacks like Marco did. Aokiji may even no-sell the Ice Demon virus, being naturally cold enough as he is. Akainu would be overkill. His best shot is using Germa tech and hope that Ichiji's laser can damage them. Alternatibely, his weakness with beautiful women gets him petrified from the get-go.
• 3. Jack may be a powerful tank-and-spank commander, but we already know what happened to him when he went up against just a retired Sengoku, Tsuru, and Fujitora.

For the Tobi Roppo:

• 1. Diez Drake: He either finds a way to avoid combat entirely or he finally blows his cover to fight for the Marines. He can leak intel to SWORD and have Doffy imprisoned in Impel Down prior to the battle.
• 2. Who's Who: Guess who's not gonna be protesting Ace's execution and be stripped of his Shichibukai title. Yeah.
• 3. Sasaki: I think Kuma even at this point is still more powerful than Franky, so let's go with that alternate Mech fight for him. Otherwise, if left unchecked, I can see him being able to stall a few vice-admirals at a time due to his solid defense.
• 4. Black Maria: She has the highest bounty amongst the Tobi Roppo, so that should count for something right? She is tactical, mobile, and has a good crowd control ability. I can also see her stalling a few vice-admirals at a time like Sasaki. I can see a Hina matchup where they try to outmaneuver and entrap the other, not unlike in the Robin fight. While BM is physically superior, Hina has the territory advantage and will know better how to navigate Marineford.
• 5. Page One and Ulti: I'm not really impressed. I can see John Giant and
• a couple more giant vice-admirals taking them out. Nami survived repeated hits from Ulti's Mortar. Enough said.

Others of note:

• 1. Hawkins: Dark horse. I guess it depends on how fast he can restock on scarecrow lives and how often he gets hit with a lethal attack. He also uses seastone nails, which is invaluable against the fleet admiral, the admirals, and some vice-admirals. Considering the threats posed by the entire Marine force, if he foresees a very low chance of surviving, much less winning, will he ditch Kaido?
• 2. Apoo: Another Dark Horse. He's surprisingly tough and his attacks seem to bypass defenses. Until the Marines figure out his trick, he'll be able to freely cause havoc, possibly even against vice-admirals.
• 3. Numbers: Unimpressive. Another tank-and-spank fight for the vice-admirals, giants or otherwise. Tsuru will fold them, but not before washing them first.

Conclusion: Kaido's forces are less impressive and largely less complex to fight than WB's. In the end, it will be up to Kaido himself, just as it is in Wano.


PS: I almost forgot: Blackbeard is a Shichibukai at this point. Not a good news for Kaido's forces. Granted, he won't have the Level 6 prisoners like Shiryu and San Juan Wolf, but the Yami Yami no Mi is pretty powerful.

[Devonix]

Theory crafting time. Lets say marineford was entirely different. Instead of ace being executed as a trap for whitebeard, lets say they captured, I dunno, yamato, and that was enough to bring out kaido and his forces. (Its not important why, just that in this case its what happened) How differently would the war have played out? Do you think the outcome would have been different with a yonko at his current peak backed up by his all stars, and tobiroppo as elites as well as his various goons from nameless mooks to mid rankers? Who would be responsible for fighting kaido, and would they have enough elites left to deal with his commanders? Would sengoku and garo dog pile him with the admirals to try and finish him quickly, or would they assign someone to keep him busy till enough of his big names were defeated to free up their big names to focus on him?

One major thing would be Akainu using his his manipulations would work even better at turning Kaido's forces against him that turning Whitebeard's allies against him. Because Kaido actually is untrustworthy.

[Anteros]

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Kaido is wrong because he is desperately hopping Luffy's awakening is just a gimmick and not representative of true ambition or Luffy himself being dangerous. He is wrong about that. He is right though about how people are dangerous, not devil fruits or fancy marital arts styles or any number of things a person might rest on for power. Those things are tools, and as our characters have learned them and expanded their uses they have become stronger for it. But every single Straw Hat has at the core of them real and true ambition. Desire, alongside the will to become stronger to achieve it.


As for Kid and Law, I never though about it but you are totally right. Those two aren't particularly ambitious or driven, they are just losers coasting along on a couple of powerful fruits and living it up with no worries in the world because their haxxor powers just handle all their problems for them right. Does that sound a lot like them?

You keep trying to twist the cart in front of the horse here and say people are strong because of their fruits and not because they skill and power is the fruits of their labor and desire to improve and become stronger. Even when this chapter literally goes out of it's way to say out loud that that is the wrong read for this. So I have this great quote for you you might be familiar with if you hang around on these forums.

Spoiler

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Ah yes, Luffy make Big Punch into Bigger Punch is so unexpected. What's next, stretching his arms from 72 Gomu Gomus to 142 Gomu Gomus?

Spoiler

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No one is saying that they don't have willpower or are coasting, but they explicitly beat Big Mom with devil fruit powers, not haki. Kaido is wrong. Kid, Law, Blackbeard all stand at the peak based on their devil fruits, not their haki. Maybe later arcs will reemphasize haki, but this arc has been about bringing devil fruits back into the spotlight. It's not necessarily a bad thing to get back to the roots of unique powers and creative uses rather than haki though.

And yes, the ability to go from elephant sized punches to literal Island sized is more substantial than you're making it out to be. He's literally yelling for momo to move the island so he doesn't destroy it. It's a ridiculous power up. Who can stand up to that kind of attack? The power creep is real.

[Dragonus45]

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No one is saying that they don't have willpower or are coasting, but they explicitly beat Big Mom with devil fruit powers, not haki. Kaido is wrong. Kid, Law, Blackbeard all stand at the peak based on their devil fruits, not their haki. Maybe later arcs will reemphasize haki, but this arc has been about bringing devil fruits back into the spotlight. It's not necessarily a bad thing to get back to the roots of unique powers and creative uses rather than haki though.

And yes, the ability to go from elephant sized punches to literal Island sized is more substantial than you're making it out to be. He's literally yelling for momo to move the island so he doesn't destroy it. It's a ridiculous power up. Who can stand up to that kind of attack? The power creep is real.

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What does it have to do with anything that though that they used fruits and not haki? Although I would say they were likely using both to some degree since just about everyone at this point has some access to haki. This is about ambition and drive. It's not whatever goofy random power or skill someone happens to be using. And no it's really not as big of a deal. Look at Doffy literally crushing an entire island to death buildings and all, big giant city destroying moves have been on the table for several arcs now and it only makes sense Luffy is pulling something like this out and it was absolutely expected.

[Traab]

So apparently the episode of the anime where luffy decks kaido and does actual damage just came out. From what ive seen, they really did it justice. Both in the animation, the drama leading up to it, all of it. When luffy landed that red roc you could almost hear shang tsung yelling "IT HAS BEGUN!!" The first round starts now of the old generation facing the new on the rooftop of onigashima. Who will win? Old and busted? Or new hotness? Find out roughly 115 episodes from now!

[lord_khaine]

The main problems I see here are 1. Kaido doesn't seem to care for Yamato as much as WB cares for Ace, 2. many of Kaido's forces are physically superior but are going on a naval invasion with their DF weaknesses, 3. the legendary hero Garp has zero reasons to hold back in this fight, and 4. Kaido has been caught by the Marines before, and will likely know his common tricks and tactics.

On 3. Garb is Old. Quite a bit past his prime. so far his most impressive bit is sucker punching Marco as far as i recall.
Having Garb not hold back seems like a minor tradeoff for having an Emperor at his prime.
Where i also dont think having caught Kaido in his youth means much. Kaido isnt a trick fighter. He is going to club you or breathe upon you. Thats not a secret.

King will be the only swordsman who can stall or preoccupy Mihawk, and his chances are slim considering even Mihawk's disciple beat him. The moment Mihawk isn't distracted, The World's Strongest Slash will be locked on Kaido—two swordsmen were already able to scar Kaido, so I'm expecting a lot more from him.

Dont need a swordsman to handle Mihawk. Trying to do that instead of looking for a counter is a suckers game.
And considering the state King left Zorro in it seems unlikely Mihawk would be a relevant danger afterwards. Where for all we know Zorro already surpassed Mihawk.

Jack may be a powerful tank-and-spank commander, but we already know what happened to him when he went up against just a retired Sengoku, Tsuru, and Fujitora.

Yeah the retired Fleet Admiral? the rank above Admiral. Not a big surprise he lost.

Queen has shown his attacks are also detrimental to their own forces, whose lives don't mean to him. I can see any of the admirals making quick work of him, considering Queen doesn't show armament haki capabilities to hurt logia users and he can't regenerate damage from their attacks like Marco did. Aokiji may even no-sell the Ice Demon virus, being naturally cold enough as he is. Akainu would be overkill. His best shot is using Germa tech and hope that Ichiji's laser can damage them. Alternatibely, his weakness with beautiful women gets him petrified from the get-go.

It seems unreasonable to assume soneone as highly placed as Queen does know posses Haki just because he didnt need it in his fight.
But even so. Queen is also the most likely person to develop a tech weapon to hurt any given admiral. Crocodile was weak to water. Enel to rubber.
It seems reasonable to assume there is stuff for the others as well. Such as a laser for the cold guy. Or a freeze ray for the magma guy.

Conclusion: Kaido's forces are less impressive and largely less complex to fight than WB's. In the end, it will be up to Kaido himself, just as it is in Wano.

It does seem like Kaido, King and Queen is a bit more than what Whitebeards forces had available.
Thats good since the rest is less impressive.

But Kaido alone could swing it all if a couple careless Admirals get wasted by him early.

[Razade]

All the Tobi Roppo and King and Queen have Armament and Observation Haki according to their data books and Vivre cards. The black coating is an advanced form of Armament, not everyone has it.

[ben-zayb]

King and Queen are certainly nowhere near close to impressive compared to WB's top commanders. Marco managed to hold both of them off at the same time. Jozu effortlessly tanked Mihawk's Strongest Slash, and Vista himself was able to hold his ground against Mihawk. Queen's most significant contribution to the war is spreading a plague on both allies and enemies, then squaring up with one of the weak trio. I still can't recall King's significance in the war.

All the Tobi Roppo and King and Queen have Armament and Observation Haki according to their data books and Vivre cards. The black coating is an advanced form of Armament, not everyone has it.

Those must have been very basic levels of observation haki, considering how King and Queen were easily caught off-guard by the scabbards at the start of the raid. Same with armament haki for some of the Tobi Roppo, especially considering how underwhelming their attacks were at harming their target. How many Mortar shots did Nami and Usopp survive again? We're also talking about carnivorous ancient zoans, so their base attack power are expected to be massively improved to begin with.

[Traab]

What about the clash between ulti and luffy? That wasnt exactly a casual stomping from luffy there either. While he wasnt fighting full out, she still slammed him through the floor with her headbutt. He wasnt exactly injured by it but he certainly felt it. Lets be honest, the nami/ussop survival was pure plot armor. Ussop is the guy who has taken a literal 4 ton bat to the face at high speeds and survived. And that was well before the time skip. Nami on the other hand, yeah, she hasnt exactly had much in the way of durability feats before this.

[lord_khaine]

King and Queen are certainly nowhere near close to impressive compared to WB's top commanders. Marco managed to hold both of them off at the same time. Jozu effortlessly tanked Mihawk's Strongest Slash, and Vista himself was able to hold his ground against Mihawk. Queen's most significant contribution to the war is spreading a plague on both allies and enemies, then squaring up with one of the weak trio. I still can't recall King's significance in the war.

Not at the same time as i recall. One after the other.
And i dont put to much into Jozu's accomplishment. It was as far as observed due to a devil fruit. Buggy also tanked Mihaws slashes. Jozu were afterwards frozen by an admiral.
Your incorrect though. Queen squared off against one of the monster trio. The same with King.

Those must have been very basic levels of observation haki, considering how King and Queen were easily caught off-guard by the scabbards at the start of the raid. Same with armament haki for some of the Tobi Roppo, especially considering how underwhelming their attacks were at harming their target. How many Mortar shots did Nami and Usopp survive again? We're also talking about carnivorous ancient zoans, so their base attack power are expected to be massively improved to begin with.

It dont need to be more than basic. We have seen the admirals fought without the advanced technique.
You just need the basic to affect them with your attacks.

[Razade]

Those must have been very basic levels of observation haki, considering how King and Queen were easily caught off-guard by the scabbards at the start of the raid. Same with armament haki for some of the Tobi Roppo, especially considering how underwhelming their attacks were at harming their target. How many Mortar shots did Nami and Usopp survive again? We're also talking about carnivorous ancient zoans, so their base attack power are expected to be massively improved to begin with.

Luffy is caught off guard all the time too, even with future sight. Observation isn't prescience except for a few limited people. Katakuri, Luffy and Kaido are the only ones confirmed to have it and it expressly says in the manga you need to focus for it. The raid was a surprise, which even Observation users can get caught by. You're also acting like the Straw Hats aren't strong in the series, they are. The Straw Hats are one of the top crews for a reason and they've all survived some absurd things up to this point. Ulti wasn't trying to kill either of them, just beat them into submission and it worked. Nami almost declared Luffy wouldn't be King of the Pirates. Usopp was left almost catatonic. Ulti and Page One are the weakest of the Tobi Roppo, Page One got his butt handed to him by Sanji with his raid suit. The only reason Ulti walked away from Luffy was because he was trying to conserve his strength for Kaido.

I think you're discounting the entire army Kaido has though. We're told that they're a dangerous fighting force, we see a lot of coordination within the Tobi Roppo's groups. More so than anything we saw in Whitebeard's groups. Kaido actually armored divisions and an airforce, two things Whitebeard didn't have. Not to mention you discounting the Numbers. One Ancient Giant almost brought Marineford to ruin. Think what ten of them could do? Just because they've fallen to the Straw Hats doesn't mean their weak. Luffy, Yamato, X Drake (another member of The Worst) are the ones that took the majority of them out and Franky was in his mecha which he designed specifically in case they had another foe like Oars. Whitebeard, so sick he couldn't use Conqueror's Haki, was also such a threat that he almost took Akainu out all by himself. Kaido in the mix with his legit army would be terrifying not just because he could unleash his Conqueror's Haki but the guy's dragon form is almost as big as Marineford itself.

[ben-zayb]

What about the clash between ulti and luffy? That wasnt exactly a casual stomping from luffy there either. While he wasnt fighting full out, she still slammed him through the floor with her headbutt. He wasnt exactly injured by it but he certainly felt it. Lets be honest, the nami/ussop survival was pure plot armor. Ussop is the guy who has taken a literal 4 ton bat to the face at high speeds and survived. And that was well before the time skip. Nami on the other hand, yeah, she hasnt exactly had much in the way of durability feats before this.

I agree that Ulti looked far, far better in her brief scuffle against Luffy and there was plot armor involved against Usopp/Nami. But ultimately it's what Oda have in canon. She and Page One were unable to take Nami and Usopp out.

Not at the same time as i recall. One after the other.
And i dont put to much into Jozu's accomplishment. It was as far as observed due to a devil fruit. Buggy also tanked Mihaws slashes. Jozu were afterwards frozen by an admiral.
Your incorrect though. Queen squared off against one of the monster trio. The same with King.

Marco himself addressed the fact that he was fighting both billion beri bounty commanders at the same time. Just two episodes ago (Episode 1014), we even see the beginning of this scuffle when Marco literally held off both Queen and King in his wings while sending Zoro towards the rooftop. I'm not sure it matters what you personally feel about Jozu's accomplishment. Yes, devil fruits benefit their users. Like how King has his defense mode while in his devil fruit forms. Also, Buggy didn't tank The World's Strongest Slash, only Mihawk's unnamed attacks against Luffy. King and Queen squared off against the wings of the future Pirate King and lost. That's the opposite of having a significant contribution to the war.

It dont need to be more than basic. We have seen the admirals fought without the advanced technique. You just need the basic to affect them with your attacks.

That doesn't seem to be the case. When Luffy tried to punch Katakuri, who has a special paramecia with the same intangibility properties as logia, the former wasn't able to affect the latter due to the gap in haki strengths. In fact, Luffy was the one who got hurt. Considering that, and how the admirals has shown far better mastery of haki when they deflected WB's attack against Marineford, it's safe to say basic levels of haki wouldn't cut it.

Luffy is caught off guard all the time too, even with future sight. Observation isn't prescience except for a few limited people. Katakuri, Luffy and Kaido are the only ones confirmed to have it and it expressly says in the manga you need to focus for it. The raid was a surprise, which even Observation users can get caught by.

Fair point. Was Queen able to detect Sanji while he's stealthed? I remember Sanji landing a direct hit back then.

You're also acting like the Straw Hats aren't strong in the series, they are. The Straw Hats are one of the top crews for a reason and they've all survived some absurd things up to this point.

SH as a crew has some strong members. Individually, there still is a weak trio, and Nami and Usopp are part of that subgroup.

Ulti wasn't trying to kill either of them, just beat them into submission and it worked.

That's purely conjecture. That Ulti was unable to kill Nami isn't an indicator that she didn't intend to.

Ulti and Page One are the weakest of the Tobi Roppo

Exactly, and they ultimately haven't done anything of significance to affect the outcome of the war, aside from taking themselves out after hurting Tama and provoking Big Mom. As I said earlier, at best, they may be able to tangle against vice-admirals.

I think you're discounting the entire army Kaido has though.

You can have a fierce army of SMILE users, but it would be pointless if their ships sink before reaching Marineford. The Marines were prepared to take on approaching ships, and were only surprised by WB's ships popping up because they snuck into Marineford from underwater. This makes sense for WB because Fishman Island is his territory, which means he has a consistent supply of coating tech. There's no indication that Kaido has access to ship coating, much less access to enough of those to coat his entire fleet to take the underwater route and prevent Marines from just sinking that fleet. Remember, Marineford and Sabaody are in Paradise, and the Yonkou are in the new world.

We're told that they're a dangerous fighting force, we see a lot of coordination within the Tobi Roppo's groups.

It's easier to have coordination within the Tobi Roppo because they have their own posts to defend, and let's clarify that this coordination applies only to half of the Tobi Roppo--Sasaki, Black Maria, and Who's Who. In the hypothetical scenario, Marines will be the one on a defensive position and the Tobi Roppo will be the ones entering enemy territory. Nothing in their showings so far indicate that they can also coordinate offensively.

Kaido actually armored divisions and an airforce, two things Whitebeard didn't have.

The armored division were ultimately irrelevant save for Sasaki, and as I mentioned earlier he'd be really effective in pre-occupying vice-admirals due to his defense unless a Shichibukai like Kuma fights him. Fair point on the air division. I can see them being sent out as part of the actual rescue team, bypassing foot soldiers, especially with Sasaki (who can fly, of course) leading the charge. I imagine the Marines has to send in Kuma and PX-s as both land-to-air defense and a barricade encircling Yamato or whoever.

Not to mention you discounting the Numbers. One Ancient Giant almost brought Marineford to ruin. Think what ten of them could do? Just because they've fallen to the Straw Hats doesn't mean their weak. Luffy, Yamato, X Drake (another member of The Worst) are the ones that took the majority of them out and Franky was in his mecha which he designed specifically in case they had another foe like Oars.

Do note that they are failed experiments, and there's no actual indication how they stack up against an Ancient Giant like Oars Jr. in terms of power.

Kaido in the mix with his legit army would be terrifying not just because he could unleash his Conqueror's Haki but the guy's dragon form is almost as big as Marineford itself.

That brings me back to my earlier point. Much like in the Wano War, it's ultimately Kaido that would be the deciding factory. Heck, considering how fast his dragon form was shown to move a few chapters ago, he could possibly just swoop right in from a Sky Island, grab Yamato, and leave.

[Razade]

Fair point. Was Queen able to detect Sanji while he's stealthed? I remember Sanji landing a direct hit back then.

You mean in his raid suit or their 1v1 later? Because Sanji wasn't invisible in the latter, he was moving so fast he disappeared.

SH as a crew has some strong members. Individually, there still is a weak trio, and Nami and Usopp are part of that subgroup.

And the point is they're still strong. Stronger than any of the weak members of any other Supernova group that we've seen. Chopper fought Queen 1v1 for a while. Nami's a powerhouse with her weather, she helped support Luffy against Cracker. just because they're part of the Weak Trio doesn't mean that they're objectively the weakest in any scenario they enter against any opponent. Nami, Chopper and Usopp have all had 1v1's and come out on top and against particularly powerful foes.

That's purely conjecture. That Ulti was unable to kill Nami isn't an indicator that she didn't intend to.

No it isn't. You don't demand someone renounce their Captain and then say "and if you don't I'll kill you" when you're trying to kill them before hand. It's not conjecture, it's basic inference.

Exactly, and they ultimately haven't done anything of significance to affect the outcome of the war, aside from taking themselves out after hurting Tama and provoking Big Mom. As I said earlier, at best, they may be able to tangle against vice-admirals.

They didn't do anything to effect the war because they're the villains and they're meant to lose. They're still multi-million Berry Bounty Pirates, Ulti has enough durability to go toe to toe with Luffy's Haki in his base form. You're discounting them because they're jobbers, not actually looking at their feats in context.

You can have a fierce army of SMILE users, but it would be pointless if their ships sink before reaching Marineford. The Marines were prepared to take on approcahing ship, and were only surprised by WB's ships popping up because they approached Marineford from underwater. This makes sense for WB because Fishman Island is his territory, which means he has a consistent supply of coating tech. There's no indication that Kaido has access to ship coating, much less access to enough of those to coat his entire fleet to take the underwater approach and prevent Marines from just sinking that fleet. Remember, Marineford and Sabaody are in Paradise, and the Yonkou are in the new world.

Why would their ships sink before reaching Marineford? The ships we've seen Kaido's people on had guns that could hit well past any cannon on the allied fleet. It took Jinbe rocking up out of nowhere to save them a ton of losses in the lead up to Onigashima. Do you think that Kaido also wouldn't employ tactics like Whitebeard did? Your argument lies on Kaido just being stupid and rushing without concern...if you just hand Kaido the idiot ball then ya, he's going to do stupid actions.

It's easier to have coordination within the Tobi Roppo because they have their own posts to defend, and let's clarify that this coordination applies only to half of the Tobi Roppo--Sasaki, Black Maria, and Who's Who. In the hypothetical scenario, Marines will be the one on a defensive position and the Tobi Roppo will be the ones entering enemy territory. Nothing in their showings so far indicate that they can also coordinate offensively.

Well I guess that means they just can't.

The armored division were ultimately irrelevant save for Sasaki, and as I mentioned earlier he'd be really effective in pre-occupying vice-admirals due to his defense unless a Shichibukai like Kuma fights him. Fair point on the air division. I can see them being sent out as part of the actual rescue team, bypassing foot soldiers, especially with Sasaki (who can fly, of course) leading the charge. I imagine the Marines has to send in Kuma and PX-s as both land-to-air defense and a barricade encircling Yamato or whoever.

The Armored Division literally had Franky stalled until Yamato came in and busted them up for him and then the SMILE users being turned by Tama.

Do note that they are failed experiments, and there's no actual indication how they stack up against an Ancient Giant like Oars Jr. in terms of power.

Even at half as strong, there's more of them and they were considered dangerous enough that people thought they'd turn the tide to Kaido.

That brings me back to my earlier point. Much like in the Wano War, it's ultimately Kaido that would be the deciding factory. Heck, considering how fast his dragon form was shown to move a few chapters ago, he could possibly just swoop right in from a Sky Island, grab Yamato, and leave.

The Raid has almost failed three times now, your conjecture is just "I don't think that would happen" and making a scenario where Kaido makes no actual concentrated tactical choices. Of course he's not going to fare as well as Whitebeard if you, at every turn, just go "Yeah well Kaido's forces aren't that good from what we've seen" and move on.

[Traab]

On the whole sinking kaido before he even gets there thing. I call BS. He has, counting himself, a few flyers easily capable of strafing the gun emplacements ahead of time. They dont have admirals manning those things. A quick divebomb and they are gone. Also, remember when luffy came back to ring the ox bell and rayliegh is literally sitting on the railing casually noping every cannon shot they launch at their vessel with a handful of buckshot one pellet at a time? Yeah, i think you are over valuing the effectiveness of marinefords guns.

[Razade]

On the whole sinking kaido before he even gets there thing. I call BS. He has, counting himself, a few flyers easily capable of strafing the gun emplacements ahead of time. They dont have admirals manning those things. A quick divebomb and they are gone. Also, remember when luffy came back to ring the ox bell and rayliegh is literally sitting on the railing casually noping every cannon shot they launch at their vessel with a handful of buckshot one pellet at a time? Yeah, i think you are over valuing the effectiveness of marinefords guns.

Not to mention it's not like Kaido doesn't have access to coating, he has the weapons he's made in Wano which include legit modern battlecruiser cannons, among all of Queen's inventions and plagues. The Raid would have been flat out over if Chopper and Marco weren't on the Live Floor. Even before that. Without Chopper, his plague at Udon would have cut the Samurai's fighting forces to nothing. A few long range shellings with one of Queen's disease ammo and Marineford would be screwed.

[ben-zayb]

You mean in his raid suit or their 1v1 later? Because Sanji wasn't invisible in the latter, he was moving so fast he disappeared.

Which still means Queen wasn't able to effectively utilize observation haki to anticipate Sanji's attack, regardless of whether it's speed or stealth. Sanji even reappeared again just before attacking, just as Queen speculated, and the latter was still hit.

And the point is they're still strong. Stronger than any of the weak members of any other Supernova group that we've seen. Chopper fought Queen 1v1 for a while. Nami's a powerhouse with her weather, she helped support Luffy against Cracker. just because they're part of the Weak Trio doesn't mean that they're objectively the weakest in any scenario they enter against any opponent. Nami, Chopper and Usopp have all had 1v1's and come out on top and against particularly powerful foes.

Nami's offensive power through has nothing to do with her not having her head caved in by Mortar, so it's irrelevant bringing that up in a conversation about Ulti's physical offense against Nami's physical defense. Nami is weak for the purpose of that conversation.[QUOTE]Ulti said that after her Mortar failed to kill Nami. Nami explicitly said she was already hit with a Mortar prior to that scene.

No it isn't. You don't demand someone renounce their Captain and then say "and if you don't I'll kill you" when you're trying to kill them before hand. It's not conjecture, it's basic inference.

Nope, sorry to say but that's still just you. Paraphrasing it doesn't really change it. I'm talking about what Oda has written, not what you're guessing happened prior. And what we actually know Oda wrote (aka not a product of your imagination) was that Ulti, an ancient zoan of a carnivorous animal, had both Nami and Usopp attacked with her headbutt. We know this because Usopp and Nami both stated they were hit with it at least once prior to that chapter.

They didn't do anything to effect the war because they're the villains and they're meant to lose. They're still multi-million Berry Bounty Pirates, Ulti has enough durability to go toe to toe with Luffy's Haki in his base form. You're discounting them because they're jobbers, not actually looking at their feats in context.

The entire Kaido and Big Mom alliance are meant to lose, but have you noticed me discounting each and every member? Page One and Ulti are being discounted because their performance is lacking. Could Oda have wrote differently and/or match them up with different enemies to showcase them? Sure, Oda actually did it. At best, they keep on coming back so their something to be said about their defense. But offensively, they performed as jabronis and will be recognized as jabronis.

Why would their ships sink before reaching Marineford? The ships we've seen Kaido's people on had guns that could hit well past any cannon on the allied fleet.

One of Kaido's ships has a long-range weaponry reaching farther than what Kidd, Luffy, and Law's ships can, but do you have the specs of Marine battleships to ensure the same is true for those? I'm sure you also noticed that the rest of the Alliance Fleet are pretty much transport ships with land-lubbers instead of pirates, right?

It took Jinbe rocking up out of nowhere to save them a ton of losses in the lead up to Onigashima.

Interesting observation. Jinbe is a shichibukai, thankfully, and he only refused to fight WB. I don't recall Jinbe not wanting to fight Kaido.

Do you think that Kaido also wouldn't employ tactics like Whitebeard did? Your argument lies on Kaido just being stupid and rushing without concern...if you just hand Kaido the idiot ball then ya, he's going to do stupid actions.

Do you have chapter quotes indicating Kaido has easy access to ship coating en masse? Kaido doesn't have to hold the idiot ball, he just hasn't shown any equipment/capacity to replicate WB's tactics to reach Marineford. And, yes, in a way, he has to rush if needed. The Marines are on a schedule here, you know.

The Armored Division literally had Franky stalled until Yamato came in and busted them up for him and then the SMILE users being turned by Tama.

Because Franky has no way to bypass the defense for all of them at the same time while they're holding a position. I believe I said this before, the Tobi Roppo groups aren't trying to hold down the fort, against one mecha dude. They're on the offensive this time, in a fort with plenty of mecha dudes.

Even at half as strong, there's more of them and they were considered dangerous enough that people thought they'd turn the tide to Kaido.

But we don't know whether they're half as strong, a quarter as strong, or three quarters. They're a complete unknown, so you can't just scale them in power to Oars Jr. in any reliable way. The best comparison you can make is that, individually, they'll be as effective as a makeshift barricade or ramp of flesh once they're taken down, and that's simply due to the size similarity to Oars Jr.

The Raid has almost failed three times now, your conjecture is just "I don't think that would happen" and making a scenario where Kaido makes no actual concentrated tactical choices. Of course he's not going to fare as well as Whitebeard if you, at every turn, just go "Yeah well Kaido's forces aren't that good from what we've seen" and move on.

I can't write on Oda's behalf. I'm not going to conjure tactical choices out of thin air that Oda may or may not agree with, especially since Kaido himself didn't show any leadership capabilities short of a generic "might makes right". In fact, didn't the Marines say in 957 that it's Kaido's motto. If Oda showed how "Kaido's forces aren't that good from what we've seen", then that's what I'm running with. That's just me, though, and I genuinely would be interesting in what others would also see happening in their own take, with their own sets of caveats.

Like, let me raise something that nobody surprisingly hasn't brought up: Kaido's forces were drunk. That's kind of the cornerstone of the alliance plan. Surely, they should perform much better when sober, right? The Numbers were canonically stated to be far poorer in performance due to being inebriated. But I'm not gonna speculate how better they'll be and use that as foundation in my Marineford scenario. It's like the Oars Jr. comparison, how better will they be? I don't know, and I won't assume. But I don't mind seeing how you or the others take a stab at the Marineford scenario with that in consideration. I'm actually surprised I'm the only one who responded to Traab's scenario.

[ben-zayb]

On the whole sinking kaido before he even gets there thing. I call BS. He has, counting himself, a few flyers easily capable of strafing the gun emplacements ahead of time. They dont have admirals manning those things. A quick divebomb and they are gone. Also, remember when luffy came back to ring the ox bell and rayliegh is literally sitting on the railing casually noping every cannon shot they launch at their vessel with a handful of buckshot one pellet at a time? Yeah, i think you are over valuing the effectiveness of marinefords guns.

You're assuming literally no one else has ranged capabilities amongst the Shichibukai and Admirals, or that there aren't any contingents that can intercept the flyers as they approach. If you're sending the flyer units ahead of time without distractions, then they'd be easy pickings. And yes, hitting a singular smaller target is quite more difficult than hitting any random ship from a multitude of big battleships. Especially if the right hand man of the Pirate King is blocking the attacks that would have hit.

Not to mention it's not like Kaido doesn't have access to coating, he has the weapons he's made in Wano which include legit modern battlecruiser cannons, among all of Queen's inventions and plagues. The Raid would have been flat out over if Chopper and Marco weren't on the Live Floor. Even before that. Without Chopper, his plague at Udon would have cut the Samurai's fighting forces to nothing. A few long range shellings with one of Queen's disease ammo and Marineford would be screwed.

The virus would cut the Samurai and Kaido's forces. A few long range of those shellings would also get nullified by any of the Admirals long range attacks.

[awa]

Remember kaido can make a castle fly, I could easily imagine a similar scene to the underwater arrival where everyone is stunned when kaido drops a fortress out of the clouds.

Personally one piece operates heavily on the rule of cool so I tend to imagine the all the emperors forces have a similar strength in different ways. Further devil fruit powers and queens exotic weapons are such huge and unreliably force multipliers that depending on who gets matched with whom it could become very one sided one way or another.

Maybe a super weapon goes off and decisively weakens important marines maybe it get knocked right back in his face and takes out important beast pirates maybe it only hits nameless mooks on both sides and has no meaningful effect.

[Dragonus45]

Kaido as part of his backstory has walked away from his own execution before. More then once. Presumably if he really wanted too he could tangle with the navy if he brought his own crew. I think overall they still lose but he himself would be fine.