What Are You Playing 6: DLCs of Kevin Bacon

[Psyren]

The trouble was that they didn't know what to do with Andromeda once they got there. The themes of the universe they built had been thoroughly addressed. The political systems and histories of the galaxy they built were now largely irrelevant. They had to effectively start from scratch, and unfortunately they botched it.

I'd say the "how" is what they messed up moreso than the "what."

On paper the premise is sound - your people arrive in a new galaxy as settlers, find out that not only did it get vastly worse than the version you set out for during transit somehow but it also ended up inhabited by oppressed aliens during that time. You befriend them, and with their help discover alien technology there that can fix things for both of you, but you find yourself racing against the genocidal oppressors of the first group to control that technology before it can be weaponized against you and your new friends. That works fine as a meaty standalone sci-fi story even before you begin layering on the mass effect trappings we know and love. And it gives us reasons for freeform space exploration that the original trilogy's much greater urgency didn't really afford. I also liked the whole "well, we didn't exactly bring a ton of guns and armor and bombs with us because we're explorers, but we packed all the blueprints to make that stuff juuuust in case."

But where they dropped the ball - besides rushing the game and thus having it land buggier than Bugs Bunny bugging out on a dune buggy - is that they forgot the whole roleplay part of the roleplaying game they were making. And so what should have been the most core aspect of a Mass Effect game - choices and NPCs (especially multicultural squadmates) reacting to those choices - fell flat. I'm not saying they needed to keep Paragon and Renegade as the choice mechanism specifically, but some means of broadly determining who you wanted your Ryder to be, and therefore actually having that playthrough's Ryder feel different from someone else's doing a different one, was a critical part of the experience that they didn't do nearly enough with. And premise alone can't carry any RPG.

Also - the squadmates are the worst in the series, if not in any Bioware game entirely. (Except Vetra, Drack and Jaal.)

The combat was a big step up in some ways (jetpacks!) but a step down in others (power variety and impact, both gutted in favor of the Profiles system.)

[Resileaf]

Mind you, a large number of issues (especially the bug kind) were caused by EA forcing a release too early. And a lot of fixes that could have been made were also ruined by EA when they forced Bioware to abandon the game and stop supporting it and not release DLC.

[Psyren]

Mind you, a large number of issues (especially the bug kind) were caused by EA forcing a release too early. And a lot of fixes that could have been made were also ruined by EA when they forced Bioware to abandon the game and stop supporting it and not release DLC.

Indeed, I mentioned it being rushed.

I don't know that any DLC would have fixed the dialog system or the characters, but it would have helped the story, sure.

[NeoVid]

An old quote comes to mind whenever this discussion pops up again: "Fallout 3 had the most hated ending in video game history until Mass Effect 3 released."

[Zevox]

Continuing to play DNF Duel, I've finally started playing online, and am loving it, mostly.

The one problem came when I tried to go the game's unranked mode to try out a second character after starting in ranked with Dragon Knight, who I expected to do the best with given I played a lot of her in the betas (and I'd say that's holding true). Because the only unranked mode it has is the game's lobbies, which haven't gotten any better since the betas. Meaning they're terrible, even compared to Guilty Gear Strive's at launch. All too often when I pick a lobby and try to join it, it can't even manage that successfully - it just holds on the "joined lobby" message for a minute before giving me an error and sending me back to pick a new lobby to try to join. And even when you do get into a lobby, they're small (8 players max), so if there's not an odd number of people in it currently, you're likely to be waiting for someone before you get a match; and even if there is, if that odd number isn't exactly "1", it's reasonably likely the odd man out is spectating an existing match, so you're still waiting for someone new to show. And even when you get that match, all too often after a few games, you'll just get abruptly disconnected from the opponent and/or lobby mid-match. It's maddening and I don't know how anyone is putting up with it. At least in Guilty Gear Strive the lobby size is much larger (64 players) and you can set yourself to wait for a match while playing in training mode, and it doesn't disconnect once you've got your matches going. I have no idea how they managed to make this even worse, but they did.

Fortunately, the game does have a ranked mode, where it just tries to match you up against whoever else of around your rank is also looking for a match, and as is normal in fighting games you can do this while playing in training mode. And I've yet to have one of those disconnect on me mid-match. So I guess I'm just going to be playing strictly ranked in this game until/unless they fix the lobbies, and I'll just have to make myself not care if I lose rank when trying out different characters - because I'll definitely be doing a lot of that given how many characters I already like in this game, even before trying some of the ones that weren't in the betas.

Character-wise, after playing both Dragon Knight and Swift Master against real people - I really like both of them, so it's still hard to say for sure who I'll go with as my real main. But I'd say that I'm gelling with Dragon Knight a bit more easily, and I don't think that's just because of my experience playing her in the beta. Her game plan and how to use her tools just feels like it clicks for me more naturally than Swift Master's does. So she may be a bit of a provisional main, at least until I get more used to Swift Master to truly judge which one I like better.

But damn, in general, I am loving this game. Everybody feels so powerful - even characters that are being discussed as likely low-tiers like Grappler and Vanguard can run you over if you make a few mistakes - and everything you can do is so cool. It's always a good sign when you're happy even when losing in a fighting game, and I definitely get that with this game.

An old quote comes to mind whenever this discussion pops up again: "Fallout 3 had the most hated ending in video game history until Mass Effect 3 released."

People hated Fallout 3's ending? I was just kind of bored by it. Though then again, I almost didn't finish the game because I was so bored by it near the end, so I guess that may just be me.

(Aside: I'll still put Final Fantasy 13's ending up against any other game's bad ending any day. Even if you somehow manage to follow all of that game's nonsense up until that it point, it makes absolutely no sense.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, but FFXIII was already barely understandable nonsense, the ending was just more of the same. On ME3 the story at least makes sense up until the very end, so the rushed ending is more shocking. Plus FFXIII actually had a final boss.

As for Fallout 3, well a linear story isn't really something the Devs focused on.

[Anteros]

The original ending to Fallout 3 was absolutely hated. Not only did they prevent you from further exploring the world, but the way they went about it was idiotic. They forced you to either sacrifice yourself or someone else to radiation poisoning....after going through the trouble of previously establishing that several of your companions are immune to radiation.

The devs actually listened to their fans and fixed it though, so they have that over Bioware. Bioware's "fix" of ME3 just made it slightly less terrible.

I think I'm the one person in existence that actually really liked FFXIII's battle system, but yeah that story is just nonsensical. It doesn't help that the cast is composed of some of the most unlikable characters of all time. Everyone except for Sazh is unbearable. I actually personally like Snow as well, but I understand why most other people don't.

[Eldan]

They fixed it, but still recorded new voice lines for the narrator that basically went "And then, instead of sacrificing himself, the Protagonist sent in one of his companions who's immune to radiation. What a ****."

[Erloas]

I didn't see the original ME3 ending, just the updated version.
It wasn't the greatest but I didn't think it was that bad. The only way to have really changed it too much (and have it make at least some sense) would have been to rewrite the last 1\3 or so of the game.
They set the stakes too high and the enemy too big for anything but essentially a dues ex machina from ending it.

[Anonymouswizard]

To be honest considering Fallout 3's structure I'd consider any ending that doesn't stop you from playing fine, no matter how much it berates me for common sense. Although I suspect I have fewer issues because my copy is the GotY edition, and so includes the ending-fix DLC. I only played it after they removed the companions' brain farts.

I mean, in New Vegas it makes sense that the ending doesn't plonk you back in the overworld, there's a lot more push to the central story from the word 'go'. Meanwhile in 3 you escape the Vault and are pretty much left to bumble about and maybe follow the main questline if you find the right NPCs (the same for Fallout 4).

[Rynjin]

I didn't see the original ME3 ending, just the updated version.
It wasn't the greatest but I didn't think it was that bad. The only way to have really changed it too much (and have it make at least some sense) would have been to rewrite the last 1\3 or so of the game.
They set the stakes too high and the enemy too big for anything but essentially a dues ex machina from ending it.

The original ending literally left off with "Buy our DLC", it couldn't have been more of a slap in the face if they tried.

[Anonymouswizard]

The original ending literally left off with "Buy our DLC", it couldn't have been more of a slap in the face if they tried.

How about ending the base game just after

Spoiler

Show

Sanctuary

and throwing up such a screen?

[Psyren]

How about ending the base game just after

Spoiler

Show

Sanctuary

and throwing up such a screen?

That'd be a weird place to end it as we don't have the Catalyst at that point.

[Cespenar]

The thing about F3's ending is that you couldn't even reach it without playing through the actual train wreck of a game.

Anywho, trying something called Dandy Ace, which is a flamboyant Hades-like with an illusionist/magician theme. As Hades set the bar a bit too high, this feels not as smooth to play for now, but not by much. Also, the first gimmick over Hades that I noticed is that you can very quickly customize your 4 weapon/utility slots with whatever spells that you find, and also splice cards onto another to give their extra effects to each other.

So instead of boons, you kinda build your own toolbelt, similarly to... Transistor, I guess?

[Anonymouswizard]

That'd be a weird place to end it as we don't have the Catalyst at that point.

Nothing a little DLC can't fix

In more seriousness you could move things around to end just before Priority:Earth if you wanted. It would annoy pretty much everybody, but you could pull it off WRT to story of ME3 itself.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think I'm the one person in existence that actually really liked FFXIII's battle system, but yeah that story is just nonsensical. It doesn't help that the cast is composed of some of the most unlikable characters of all time. Everyone except for Sazh is unbearable. I actually personally like Snow as well, but I understand why most other people don't.

I'm approaching the end (I hope) of the very linear first part (finished up in Palumpolum, just started the next region with Sazh and Vanille).

Characters:
* Snow is ehhh
* Lightning seems to be getting less angsty, slightly
* Hope as well
* Fang's accent bugs me, but otherwise neutral
* Vanille irks me to no end with her mannerisms. I'm 99% sure it's an act, but...
* Sazh irritates me slightly. But totally irrationally, it's his dancing animation in combat that bugs me the most.

The combat system is somewhat interesting. Better than XV's (I'm not a fan of ARPGs as my coordination and button-mashing abilities suck) but not as good as a classic ATB system.

The story...meh. Haven't gotten far enough to know, but I've heard bits and pieces that make me agree.

For a game of its age, it's quite pretty though.

[Zevox]

Yeah, but FFXIII was already barely understandable nonsense, the ending was just more of the same.

True. I suppose that's why it doesn't come up so much in these bad ending comparisons - few people actually get invested in the game enough to care.

The original ending to Fallout 3 was absolutely hated. Not only did they prevent you from further exploring the world, but the way they went about it was idiotic. They forced you to either sacrifice yourself or someone else to radiation poisoning....after going through the trouble of previously establishing that several of your companions are immune to radiation.

Huh. I remember sacrificing yourself to accomplish... something, it's been too long and I cared too little for me to remember any details. I don't remember companions that were immune to radiation, but eh, I don't remember companions at all, so that's to be expected I guess. At that point I was just finishing the game because I found out I was just before the last story mission anyway, so the fact that my character died in the end didn't bother me personally, since I had no intention of playing the game any longer anyway. So yeah, just me I guess.

I think I'm the one person in existence that actually really liked FFXIII's battle system, but yeah that story is just nonsensical. It doesn't help that the cast is composed of some of the most unlikable characters of all time. Everyone except for Sazh is unbearable. I actually personally like Snow as well, but I understand why most other people don't.

I thought FF13's battle system was decent. A step up from the series' norm in my opinion, at least, albeit still nothing amazing. It's pretty much the only reason I kept playing it though, since yeah, the story sucked, and characters ranged from "can I kill them just to get them to shut up" (Hope, Snow) to "why are you even in this?" (Lightning) to "okay, I guess" (Fang, Sazh) - and those last had their one annoying moment of excessive melodrama each. (Vanille IIRC I started out okay with, but she moved more towards the stupid and annoying end of things towards the end.)

[Anonymouswizard]

XIII's battle system mainly suffers from the important bit not being where people think it is. The game got much better once I began mashing Auto Battle, even in bosses.

In fact unlike ATB it became actually bearable.

[Alcore]

An old quote comes to mind whenever this discussion pops up again: "Fallout 3 had the most hated ending in video game history until Mass Effect 3 released."

My biggest gripe on Fallout 3 is not the ending but that bible passage. Everyone kept asking me for the code and I never knew it. As a BIBLE PASSAGE it was promptly forgotten as useless data. (Partly because I only hear it in the beginning of a long sandbox)

So I never knew the code until I was going to put the brotherhood lady in (after dying the first time before figuring out the code; 1111 and 1112 and 1113 were not the right codes.)


I did not mind dying… the game was making me depressed and after researching nuclear fallout for an rpg vary inaccurate. I was done.

[NRSASD]

Just played the Looker. It’s a free parody of the Witness. Definitely worth your time, although there were a couple puzzles I just looked up. Definitely got some tears of laughter out of me though!

[Triaxx]

My biggest gripe on Fallout 3 is not the ending but that bible passage. Everyone kept asking me for the code and I never knew it. As a BIBLE PASSAGE it was promptly forgotten as useless data. (Partly because I only hear it in the beginning of a long sandbox)

So I never knew the code until I was going to put the brotherhood lady in (after dying the first time before figuring out the code; 1111 and 1112 and 1113 were not the right codes.)


I did not mind dying… the game was making me depressed and after researching nuclear fallout for an rpg vary inaccurate. I was done.

I mean, it's not like the game was unsubtle about it's importance. Especially with the quest name.

[Cygnia]

Just played the Looker. It’s a free parody of the Witness. Definitely worth your time, although there were a couple puzzles I just looked up. Definitely got some tears of laughter out of me though!

OK, that was a pretty fun parody.

[Rynjin]

I mean, it's not like the game was unsubtle about it's importance. Especially with the quest name.

Yeah there are many complaints to level at Fallout 3's story, especially the ending.

The foreshadowing on the purifier's code being too subtle is not one of them lol.

[warty goblin]

So one of the things I've realized over the years is that which games grab me is, if not purely random, at least very difficult to predict.

Case in point, the other night I fired up the ancient and deeply shonky RPG Silverfall. And I don't mean shonky in the way that fifteen year old games are generally just a bit out of whack, I mean this wasn't a gem in 2007 either.

Nowadays it's almost pure jank. The text is tiny on a modern screen. The control scheme is an artifact from a long gone and vaguely barbaric age. The combat uses some version of tab targeting I still haven't actually worked out fully. The writing is, well, writing, I guess. There's some sort of magic vs technology theme going on though I can't imagine picking tech becausethe tutorial has you playing a high level mage and it's bonkers powerful. Also demons are invading because demon invasions are nearly mandatory on RPGs.

None of this is good, a lot of its barely OK. And yet some deep part of me - probably the part that loves Deathstalker II - finds this exceedingly appealing. I own literally hundreds of games that are better than this by any measure you or I care to name. But dammit if I'm not looking forwards to getting back home after the long weekend and firing this weird mutation up again.

[Alcore]

I mean, it's not like the game was unsubtle about it's importance. Especially with the quest name.

Oh, i remembered the words in the passage just fine. It was the number of the passage where i drew the blank. In Sunday School the passages were taught and the beginning numbers were used to help navigate the bible. That was all the importance to them there was; to navigate the bible. It never occurred to me that 1) the passage was, itself, useless to me and 2) the number was useful and used as a password.


It was a complete flip on what was actually important. I felt the passage was an in game reason for my character to actually want to help the flesh eating degenerates. So the passage was a great help in setting the tone of my character's heroics. The number of the passage was given the same level of importance my teachers gave it; useful in finding that one passage again in the bible.

My one regret is not grabbing that anti mutant thingie and putting it in the water. At least I died a saint and never returned. I prefer Vegas...

[Triaxx]

Yeah that's pretty fair. Though funny since the one time you run into a bible verse in NV it's definitely not a password and is very easy to miss.

[Anonymouswizard]

On the other hand I still remember that it's Revelation 21:6, and that's without having booted up the game in years. It probably helps that it's one of the books I've fully read, and that's it's one of the few numbers short enough to be a passcode.

On the other hand I'd begrudge nobody looking it up in a walkthrough.

[GloatingSwine]

XIII's battle system mainly suffers from the important bit not being where people think it is. The game got much better once I began mashing Auto Battle, even in bosses.

In fact unlike ATB it became actually bearable.

Whilst you're correct that most people don't recognise what the important player activity is in XIII's battle system, there are more fundamental problems that stop it ever actually being good.

The player's main role in the XIII battle system is identifying the correct paradigms and switching between them on the fly, *but* for the vast majority of the game the player only has two characters at a time with three roles each, which restricts the available combinations and means that the player approach to every battle is rote and formulaic.

Even when you get to create a 3 character party you only get 3 roles each and that means you can't get freedom to set up role combinations until *after you complete the game*. Which means that there are only about half a dozen postgame encounters where you *actually* get to use the battle system as it is fully intended. Everything else has a one-dimensional obvious solution of "fill stagger bar then switch to 3xCOM and kill it, no other interactions matter".

X-2 has the best battle system.

[Anonymouswizard]

Whilst you're correct that most people don't recognise what the important player activity is in XIII's battle system, there are more fundamental problems that stop it ever actually being good.

I said bearable, not good : smalltongue:

X-2 has the best battle system.

The mid-battle class changing? I liked that, although I remember that being ATB-baded.

And ATB is just taking a good turn based system and adding waiting.

[GloatingSwine]

I said bearable, not good : smalltongue:



The mid-battle class changing? I liked that, although I remember that being ATB-baded.

And ATB is just taking a good turn based system and adding waiting.

Mid battle class changing, different actions having different cooldowns, some actions having chargeup instead of cooldown, etc. It's not *quite* as good as Grandia's quasi-realtime, but it's the best FF ever got.