What Are You Playing 6: DLCs of Kevin Bacon

[Rodin]

Isn't the "official" term for an RPG with no action an Adventure game? Sure, there's the whole "what constitutes an RPG" can of worms that we've all talked to death before, but when talking about the classic categorization system Adventure games were the category games heavy on story with no combat fell under. RPGs slowly stole the market away from them, with the deathknell of the Adventure game being sounded by the release of Baldur's Gate.

Disco Elysium straddles the line a little bit with a stats-based system underpinning the gameplay, but at it's heart I'd say DE fits much more closely into the Adventure game category than RPG. Again, talking about the classic definitions here rather than the whole "this game is/isn't an RPG because X/Y/Z" mess that differs from person to person.

[Mechalich]

Disco Elysium straddles the line a little bit with a stats-based system underpinning the gameplay, but at it's heart I'd say DE fits much more closely into the Adventure game category than RPG. Again, talking about the classic definitions here rather than the whole "this game is/isn't an RPG because X/Y/Z" mess that differs from person to person.

Disco Elysium has very limited role-playing elements. Your character is fixed, but you can configure that character in different ways and if you play the game straight that has a radical impact on how the overall story plays out, and it also changes the nature of the character in profound ways because so much of the game involves various levels of internal monologue. Of course, playing the game straight is how you get the 'depressive' aspect of Disco Elysium, because letting the dice fall where they may means you will inevitably fail a huge number of rolls, and your failures tend to lead to depressing outcomes (or game overs). The game regularly throws out rolls with a 30-70% chance of success, which means that you'll fail a lot. But, those chances are sufficiently high that a modicum of save-scumming turns them all into successes, and a playthrough where you succeed at every roll that has a 20% or greater chance of success is actually a rather optimistic story of recovery, progress, and solidarity. If you go further, and mod the detective's stats to make him into a 'super-cop' (which certainly saves time on the save-scumming front) the story becomes downright hopeful.

[Anonymouswizard]

I never needed to save scum to get an idealistic ending. Then again I was primarily specced into skills like Visual Calculus, Logic, and Drama, without any of them being high enough to get the negative effects. I could investigate good, I could talk good, and I sometimes had to put extra work in, but I got the story of a man who could have fallen into depression, but he didn't. He had a mission, he had a cause he could believe in, and he had a friend, and that was enough to start rebuilding.

Sure, the game implies it won't stick, he didn't quite keep his addictions in check, and not everything ended as it could. But even with the lingering regrets the hidden ending scene outlines he pulled himself into a place where he had one more chance.

[Eldan]

Disco Elysium straddles the line a little bit with a stats-based system underpinning the gameplay, but at it's heart I'd say DE fits much more closely into the Adventure game category than RPG. Again, talking about the classic definitions here rather than the whole "this game is/isn't an RPG because X/Y/Z" mess that differs from person to person.

See, that for me shows what the problem is with the modern definition of CRPG. Disco Elysium for me has all the elements an RPG could ever want, except a combat system. Freeform exploration of an interesting world. Detailed character advancement. Decisions about your character's mental state and their worldview, and about the direction of the story. Adventure games, for the most part, don't have much character advancement, and very often, only limited player input in dialogue and story. And that's what the RPG part is about: you don't just make your way through the story, you interact with it. You play a role.

And I haven't seen a game that does that remotely as well as Disco Elysium.

As for the depression part: yeah, I'm majorly depressed, and I've rarely cried this much at any medium. But it's incredibly cathartic.

[Brother Oni]

.....yeah that seems right why I never heard of that, I have a standard of quality to keep and Ego Draconis despite the AWESOME premise of turning into a dragon, seems to have technical issues I can't really look past.

There's Divinity: Dragon Commander in the same universe, which is weird mis-mash of RPG and a Total War game;

The RPG phase is where you make your political decisions, including how you're going to appease the 4 racial factions (Elves, Dwarves, Lizardfolk, Undead) that support your rule; this includes marriage to one of the faction's princesses.

The rest of it is an old Total War (pre Rome 1: TW) style game where where you move your troops around a Risk-style map and build up your tech and production buildings in your provinces and a RTS phase where you command your troops around a battlefield, with an important difference - as you're a Dragon Knight and can turn into a dragon at will, you can go into battle yourself and give your troops Close Air Support, much like the dragon battlefield bits of Dragon Dragoon/Drakengard.

[factotum]

And that's what the RPG part is about: you don't just make your way through the story, you interact with it. You play a role.

You arguably play a role in most video games, though. Even in something like Doom you're playing the role of a badass space marine. My own definition of an RPG is a game where your character's in-game abilities are at least as important as your own gamer twitch reflexes, and where the game has some sort of in-game ability to change or upgrade those abilities--I'm sure there are corner cases that slip outside this definition while still being RPGs, but it reasonably excludes games like GTA: San Andreas which could be argued to have RPG elements with the ability to change your in-game fitness, weight etc.

[Anonymouswizard]

See, that for me shows what the problem is with the modern definition of CRPG. Disco Elysium for me has all the elements an RPG could ever want, except a combat system. Freeform exploration of an interesting world. Detailed character advancement. Decisions about your character's mental state and their worldview, and about the direction of the story. Adventure games, for the most part, don't have much character advancement, and very often, only limited player input in dialogue and story. And that's what the RPG part is about: you don't just make your way through the story, you interact with it. You play a role.

And I haven't seen a game that does that remotely as well as Disco Elysium.

Disco Elysium convinced me that RPGs don't need a combat system. Including them isn't bad, but I honestly feel that adding them for the sake of it is bad.

You arguably play a role in most video games, though. Even in something like Doom you're playing the role of a badass space marine. My own definition of an RPG is a game where your character's in-game abilities are at least as important as your own gamer twitch reflexes, and where the game has some sort of in-game ability to change or upgrade those abilities--I'm sure there are corner cases that slip outside this definition while still being RPGs, but it reasonably excludes games like GTA: San Andreas which could be argued to have RPG elements with the ability to change your in-game fitness, weight etc.

My definition of (W)RPGs is control over the role you play. This differs from Choices Matter Interactive Narrative games in that the potential breadth of your role is much larger, at the potential expense of being less integrated with the story.

This includes games like The Elder Scrolls series as well as Disco Elysium, but leaves out games like Dark Souls and most JRPGs. I'm actually kind of fine with leaving them out, they tend to have significantly different focuses to WRPGs, but I'm honestly not sure what to call them.

[Lord Raziere]

There's Divinity: Dragon Commander in the same universe, which is weird mis-mash of RPG and a Total War game;

The RPG phase is where you make your political decisions, including how you're going to appease the 4 racial factions (Elves, Dwarves, Lizardfolk, Undead) that support your rule; this includes marriage to one of the faction's princesses.

The rest of it is an old Total War (pre Rome 1: TW) style game where where you move your troops around a Risk-style map and build up your tech and production buildings in your provinces and a RTS phase where you command your troops around a battlefield, with an important difference - as you're a Dragon Knight and can turn into a dragon at will, you can go into battle yourself and give your troops Close Air Support, much like the dragon battlefield bits of Dragon Dragoon/Drakengard.

I mean I can be slow and strategical and methodical when I feel like it, its just that for that I prefer pure strategy games like Civ 6 or Age of Empires.

though I played some more Original Sin 2, and I think I'm starting to get a hang of the combat system, though there is this one encounter with like a bunch of zombies and this voidwalker thing that ambush m that seems to kill me repeatedly, unlike other combat encounters which I win easily enough. haven't made it off the prison island at the start of the game, this is a very long starting area and seems to indicate this will be a big world.

[Rodin]

I mean I can be slow and strategical and methodical when I feel like it, its just that for that I prefer pure strategy games like Civ 6 or Age of Empires.

though I played some more Original Sin 2, and I think I'm starting to get a hang of the combat system, though there is this one encounter with like a bunch of zombies and this voidwalker thing that ambush m that seems to kill me repeatedly, unlike other combat encounters which I win easily enough. haven't made it off the prison island at the start of the game, this is a very long starting area and seems to indicate this will be a big world.

The starting area of OS2 is the prison ship. The prison island is Act I, so by the time you get through with it you'll be about a third of the way through the game.

If the zombie and voidwalker fight is the one I'm thinking of, that fight is significantly harder than most of the other ones on the island. It's essentially a boss battle without a quest associated with it, and it's placed such that you're probably insufficiently leveled/geared to take it on when you first run into it.

I would avoid it for now, go level up a bit and come back later. It's also a fight where pre-positioning your party is super important. Having your party spread out and ready to quickly take good strategic positions makes the fight a heck of a lot easier.

[DigoDragon]

Had a funny glitch hit me playing Final Fantasy 6.

I was doing the Opera House quest, specifically the scene where you have to pick the right verses in the song. Easy thing. However, when I picked the correct line for the third verse, it didn't clear the choices, instead running right to where you are supposed to dance with Maria's lover before getting the flowers. But the game apparently realized it skipped some singing so it soft-locked me to complete that, which then immediately ran into game over by thinking I ran out of time because I wasn't dancing. Awkward. XD

It thankfully unlocked itself when I was put on the overworld map and I got it correct on the second try. Fun times.

[Anteros]

Original Sin 2's difficulty is weird. A lot of the difficulty relies on you not knowing the gimmick for the particular fight, getting caught by surprise, or being put in a bad position by the dialogue. It's a substantially harder game if you allow yourself to experience fights the way they're designed, but it's very easy to use meta knowledge and trivialize most encounters.

I would recommend not using a guide or asking for advice on a first playthrough. You'll rob yourself of a lot of interesting moments.

[Eldan]

You arguably play a role in most video games, though. Even in something like Doom you're playing the role of a badass space marine. My own definition of an RPG is a game where your character's in-game abilities are at least as important as your own gamer twitch reflexes, and where the game has some sort of in-game ability to change or upgrade those abilities--I'm sure there are corner cases that slip outside this definition while still being RPGs, but it reasonably excludes games like GTA: San Andreas which could be argued to have RPG elements with the ability to change your in-game fitness, weight etc.

The difference for me is that you put yourself in that role and then make decisions from the viewpoint of your character. You don't decide how doomguy acts. He shoots and punches things, or you quit the game. Detective Dubois can interact with his case in many ways, and you choose how exactly, but he's always Dubois.

[factotum]

The difference for me is that you put yourself in that role and then make decisions from the viewpoint of your character. You don't decide how doomguy acts. He shoots and punches things, or you quit the game. Detective Dubois can interact with his case in many ways, and you choose how exactly, but he's always Dubois.

I think that narrows it down a bit too much for my taste. Let's face it, we've all played plenty of games which are pretty much entirely RPGs but where the story is on rails from beginning to end. You can't choose to join Diablo in Diablo 3, or help Alduin destroy the world in Skyrim. Any freedom your character has is usually confined to sidequests. There are a few CRPGs that have multiple endings and which one you get is determined by your actions through the game, but I'd say they're actually quite rare nowadays.

[Eldan]

I'd call Diablo an action game, not an RPG. It has basically nothing to do with any RPG I've ever sat down to play at the table with other players, and that's where the name comes from.

[Mechalich]

I'd call Diablo an action game, not an RPG. It has basically nothing to do with any RPG I've ever sat down to play at the table with other players, and that's where the name comes from.

Diablo is more of a Roll-Playing Game. It has a more or less fixed set of challenges that your character must be overcome, but you have a great deal of flexibility in how you put your character together to overcome those challenges. The build-side choices are absolutely there, it's the play-side choices that are absent.

Arguably a true role-playing game should have both. If you don't have any build-side choices, just options on a dialogue tree that unlock depending on which order they are answered in, then it's a visual novel or adventure game because the role is completely fixed.

JRPGs, often, tend to do both things at once with little connection. There's a set of challenges the player has a great deal of flexibility to overcome, but all clearing those flags does is trigger the next piece of the visual novel. The two halves of the game are effectively walled off from each other.

[Cespenar]

And here's me hoping that it wouldn't come down to the Diablo examples on the 234th time around.

[Eldan]

Please, I'm old. I haven't made an original argument in like 20 years.

[NeoVid]

Having recently finished Disco Elysium, the fact that a game where you spend most of the time roleplaying doesn't fit the definition of RPG today makes me think there is something wrong with the definition. Sadly, there are very few games that let me do what I did in DE or New Vegas, and first think of a character concept, then make everything my character said and did in the game fit that concept. But I know better than to get on the genre definition hamster wheel again...

Anyway, I've started replaying a couple of games I tried years ago and haven't touched since then. The first is Dead Cells, the roguelite metroidvania, which I played for a while, liked, and then didn't go back to for some reason. Firing it up again (from a fresh save, thanks to my data going poof), I decided to give it a couple of runs and see how I managed... and I got to the Ossuary on my second spawn, which is much farther than I ever progressed my first time playing the game. Guess all it took was a year not playing for me to get decent at it. I'd be playing it right now but... there was a Windows update a couple days ago, and ever since, Dead Cells has been crashing every few minutes. Thanks, Game Pass!

The one I've gotten re-addicted to is Spiritfarer, a game I hear nothing but overwhelmingly positive opinions on, but also don't see any discussions about. Though that may be due to how few things you can say about it that aren't spoilers... Anyway, I found out that 4 new spirits got added as free updates since I played through the game soon after launch, and I spent nearly as long on my first Spiritfarer playthrough as I did total time on Hades, so I already know I love the game, and having more to experience is certain to keep me riveted. Haven't even reached any of the new characters on this run, and it's still keeping me up at night to get in just a little more progress, same as when I first tried it. Damn, this game is good.

[Anonymouswizard]

The only game to really rival Disco Elysium in roleplaying potential is Planescape:Torment. I still remember the first time I saw it present two identical dialogue options, except for one being labelled [lie].

[Brother Oni]

The one I've gotten re-addicted to is Spiritfarer, a game I hear nothing but overwhelmingly positive opinions on, but also don't see any discussions about. Though that may be due to how few things you can say about it that aren't spoilers...

The sort of person who would play and enjoy Spiritfarer are also the type of people that wouldn't want to rob the experience from other players, as it's a very personal game and what you get out of it, depends very much on your own life's experiences.

Spoiler: Original spirits only

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For example, take Giovanni. Is he a lying, womanising, unfaithful husband? Most definitely. He also fought in WW2 as an Italian partisan and they had it rough in the rural areas.
Is Giovanni worthy of respect? Depends on your personal views; that said, someone fighting for their homeland is going to especially resonant now, in light of current events.


I also think that I made the mistake of playing too much, too soon, and got a bit jaded of the game - I simply wasn't engaged with the last 3 or 4 characters and just wanted them off my ship (Bruce and Mickey especially).

[Cespenar]

Please, I'm old. I haven't made an original argument in like 20 years.

The one I've gotten re-addicted to is Spiritfarer, a game I hear nothing but overwhelmingly positive opinions on, but also don't see any discussions about. Though that may be due to how few things you can say about it that aren't spoilers... Anyway, I found out that 4 new spirits got added as free updates since I played through the game soon after launch, and I spent nearly as long on my first Spiritfarer playthrough as I did total time on Hades, so I already know I love the game, and having more to experience is certain to keep me riveted. Haven't even reached any of the new characters on this run, and it's still keeping me up at night to get in just a little more progress, same as when I first tried it. Damn, this game is good.

I tried to get into it once, but the farming/etc. aspects completely pushed me away. Is there a way to not do them, and still get to enjoy the content?

[DigoDragon]

And here's me hoping that it wouldn't come down to the Diablo examples on the 234th time around.

I was tempted to call it a Rogue-like game. It certainly has all the trappings with the vendor trash system. :3

[factotum]

I was tempted to call it a Rogue-like game. It certainly has all the trappings with the vendor trash system. :3

Ah, but then you get into the argument of whether a "roguelike" is actually a genre at all, and if it is, does it count as an RPG? There's turtles all the way down, I tells ya!

[Anonymouswizard]

I've never played the first Diablo, but the series is one of the reasons I think we should split RPGs and Dungeon Crawlers. Yes originally they were basically the same the Ng, but at that point we didn't really have the processing power or storage capacity to do modern CRPGs.

Thinking about it, Dark Souls could also be a dungeon crawler.

Dungeon Crawlers are fun, I should really get the PC version of D3 at some point. But they're not fun because of roleplaying, but because of exploration and/or combat.

[Cespenar]

Ah, but then you get into the argument of whether a "roguelike" is actually a genre at all, and if it is, does it count as an RPG? There's turtles all the way down, I tells ya!

For added anality, we could consider using D&D nomenclature, like, "Diablo 1 is actually a Action 6/Dungeoncrawler 3/RPG 1, while Disco Elysium is a RPG 7/Adventure 3" or some such.

[NeoVid]

I tried to get into it once, but the farming/etc. aspects completely pushed me away. Is there a way to not do them, and still get to enjoy the content?

I don't think that's possible. Time pressure is a central mechanic of Spiritfarer. Constantly juggling different tasks is something you always have to do, and it gets more intense later in the game when you have a bigger variety of buildings to use and people to take care of. It doesn't look it at first, but the game purposely gets more stressful as it progresses, to fit the allegory. On shipboard, I'm pretty much always going, "OK, my ship's going to take a while to get to the next island, I can start up all the production that takes care of itself, like the kitchen and windmill, then I should have time to use one of the active crafting stations- I think the forge is more urgent right now- and if I finish that before arriving, I can spend the last bit fishing or speeding up the garden... wait, I need to make sure everyone's fed and-"

On the islands, when you're exploring and doing story segments, it's pretty calm, but on the ship you run, you rarely get the chance to rest. Despite the way it looks, Spiritfarer is absolutely not a relaxing game.

Spoiler: Original spirits only

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I also think that I made the mistake of playing too much, too soon, and got a bit jaded of the game - I simply wasn't engaged with the last 3 or 4 characters and just wanted them off my ship (Bruce and Mickey especially).

The game holds off on making you deal with the dislikable characters until later on, which I suppose is good and bad. Hitting players with the off-putting characters early could easily have driven people away from the game, and waiting until you're embedded in doing your duty for the people you take in before hitting you with the bad ones fits the allegory.

Spoiler

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Bruce&Mickey were professional criminals and keep anything decent about themselves well-hidden, and Elena is just a completely abrasive **** who seems like the type who became a teacher because of how much she hates kids, but they need your support more than the ones who are holding themselves together.

The one that got to me the most was Alice, because it's one unsettling idea that the issues that ruined someone in the real world could relapse in the afterlife...

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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The one that got to me the most was Alice, because it's one unsettling idea that the issues that ruined someone in the real world could relapse in the afterlife...

Spoiler

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Haven't played the game, but it's a more unsettling idea to me that they couldn't relapse. That implies you aren't you anymore on some level. If there is some form of afterlife, I'd rather be there as myself. Not some altered version of myself with all the bad bits cut away.

[Spore]

Dungeon Crawlers are fun, I should really get the PC version of D3 at some point. But they're not fun because of roleplaying, but because of exploration and/or combat.

Honestly though D2 and D3 were some of the coolest stories I have played in a RPG on PC. Yes, the major gameplay loop involves mindlessly murdering monster on repeat, but I flipping enjoyed murdering Magdha in D3 for what she has done. I remember Diablo 2 going from Act 3 to 4 was such a drastical shift in tone and the whole game does a great job at escalating the story.

Yes, the actual 'role' your character has is insignificant (as you are a canonically a group of adventurers doing the deed) and you're basically sightseeing with a whole lot of murder hoboing but the actual story told by the set pieces is awesome, just not very inspired.

[NeoVid]

Spoiler

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Haven't played the game, but it's a more unsettling idea to me that they couldn't relapse. That implies you aren't you anymore on some level. If there is some form of afterlife, I'd rather be there as myself. Not some altered version of myself with all the bad bits cut away.

Spoiler

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I'd honestly never considered that perspective. For me, seeing Alice go senile again when she'd already passed on was kind of horrifying. It made me question my assumptions about the afterlife the game takes place in, and left me constantly thinking "What sort of ****ed up existence is this world?!"

...Which, come to think of it, also perfectly fits the metaphor Spiritfarer is built around.

[DigoDragon]

For added anality, we could consider using D&D nomenclature, like, "Diablo 1 is actually a Action 6/Dungeoncrawler 3/RPG 1, while Disco Elysium is a RPG 7/Adventure 3" or some such.

Okay that is just brilliantly funny. XD

All that's left is to make an alignment chart with the two axis being something like "RPG--Dungeoncrawler" and "Action--TurnBased" and then we can argue over it into eternity. ^^